The Mark of the Beast?

Adelrune Argenti · Post by **Adelrune Argenti** » July 18, 2003, 3:08 pm

Interesting report here on ID chips that are starting to be implanted into people. http://msnbc.com/news/940712.asp?0si=- This really does bother me from a privacy and control perspective.

Morgrym · Post by **Morgrym** » July 18, 2003, 3:15 pm

Concept kinda sucks. All I can think of is that one movie (Total Recall?) with Arnold pulling that thing out of his nose. Ouch!

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 18, 2003, 3:40 pm

People scared of a christain apocalypse shouldn't be shy of technology.

Think about it, if you belive the end will come as described by the bible, its doomed to happen despite any efforts to resist it.

So kick back and enjoy the implants.

Besides, the good guys win in the end.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » July 18, 2003, 3:50 pm

Considering your souce material comes from a biased origin with no cross sources, I wouldn't rest so easily.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 18, 2003, 3:56 pm

Hey Jice,

Haven't seen you around in a while.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 21, 2003, 11:35 am

Of course for being such a biased source, it sure has had an awful lot of things come to pass. Might want to check out Revelations some time. For a book of "suggestions and guidelines" it predicts quite a bit of things that have already happened and some that look like they are coming real close to occurring.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 21, 2003, 12:01 pm

Revelations describes the Roman government in 120 AD in allegorical fashion (if i recall correctly).

It is not meant to be interpretted as a realistic prediction of an apocalypse.

http://www.cresourcei.org/therevelation.html

that source i cant necessarily say is 100% on the money or not, but it is completely consistent with what i was independently taught in my 10th grade New Testament class. The Catholic Church views it as allegory, and while the Church has a lot of things wrong with it, it has one thing that your local fundamentalist bible thumper does not. Historical perspective and documentation.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 21, 2003, 2:27 pm

Revelations speaks of the future.

It's a big book which also addressed the fate of Rome. (Rome falls, gasp!)

Take a guy from about 90AD and show him airplanes and tanks.

The overwhelmed guy most likely will be describe horsemen riding in the sky and beasts betching flame.

Some of the more exotic descriptions in the book are due to Mr. 90AD trying to describe things from a vocabulary and life experience limited to his time period.

It is no vague alegory. It is a glimpse at what the end will be and a reassurance that in the end, God cleans house and wins.

Burke · Post by **Burke** » July 21, 2003, 3:07 pm

If god is omnipotent, he doesn't need to "win".

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » July 21, 2003, 3:35 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Revelations speaks of the future.

So did Nostradamus. Should he be considered God?

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 21, 2003, 3:48 pm

I would not consider him God any more than I would the people who put the book of Revelations into print. Now whether or not he got l33t inside infoz from God, I cannot say.

Something I find interesting as we come to what many believe are the last days before the rapture, is that many of the Native American cultures (and the Mayans in particular) believe there is going to be a major change in the earth in the year 2011. With the happenings in the Middle East and some other big indicators from Revalations, things could well unfold and hit that same time frame. I guess only time will tell.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » July 21, 2003, 3:57 pm

I thought it was 2012. It would be cool if something happened then.

Though I don't take the religious angle per se. I forget where I read it but someone cleverer than me worked out that the amount of information known to all humanity doubles over an ever shortening period. This period used to be 100's of years but now is in the order of about a year (goes the theory) and according to this clever persons deductions/calculations/goat entrails the period-of-doubling reduces to zero (ie human knowledge doubles every instant) in *drumroll* 2012.

Also the Mayan 6th age starts, there's prolly some astrological bollocks involved and, I dare say, cats and dogs living together.

Grab a helmet.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » July 21, 2003, 4:27 pm

err, I meant to change the quote to Adex's. Sorry.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » July 21, 2003, 4:51 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Something I find interesting as we come to what many believe are the last days before the rapture, is that many of the Native American cultures (and the Mayans in particular) believe there is going to be a major change in the earth in the year 2011.

Did you ever play Shadowrun?

On topic, if they ever get this doohickey to act as a credit card, I'd get it implanted in my fucking forehead if necessary. Anything to get me out of the grocery store 5 minutes faster.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 21, 2003, 5:54 pm

It's all poppycock!

Noun: poppycock
1: Senseless talk

hooey (another good word!)
stuff
stuff and nonsense

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » July 21, 2003, 6:56 pm

hrmmm only 7-8 years to build my shelter. Bah who am I kidding, nothing ever happens in Wisconsin other than a few serial killers who wear other people's skin.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » July 21, 2003, 8:47 pm

Shadowrun is wonderful.
Way too cool.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 21, 2003, 11:08 pm

Burke wrote:If god is omnipotent, he doesn't need to "win".

Well, I'm just trying to summarize a large book with a one-liner. Forgive me if such a summary misses the target slightly.

Let me try again. The main point of Revelations is eventually God will eliminate evil and in the end he'll close up shop as far as this reality and move on to a new game. Hopefully we'll be moving along with him.

Vetiria,

There is actually a biblical test for a prophet. It basically said if someone claimed to be a prophet of God and ever predicted something wrong, they were to put to death for being false.

20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Deuteronomy 18 20:22

So, were Nostradamus' predictions absolutely perfect?

Nope, so he's no biblcal prophet.

Besides it makes good sense.
If someone is actually getting future knowledge from a God who exists outside of time, their predictions are going to be perfect.

Jesus once said that no one but God knows the time when Jesus is to come back down to earth and clean house. So if some fella runs his mouth off and says The End is coming tomorrow, then you can rest easy that day.

But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. --Jesus
(Matthew 24:36-39)

Truant · Post by **Truant** » July 21, 2003, 11:34 pm

that is of course...if you bank on that book...

not everyone does!

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 22, 2003, 12:02 am

Yes, it is based on a belief that the bible is what it says it is.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » July 22, 2003, 12:44 am

You have to remember Adex, I assume you read the King James version of the Bible? That's not the original text of it.

I wouldn't rely on anything that's been translated through so many languages over a thousand+ years.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 22, 2003, 1:13 am

Welp, if God chose the bible to be his way of talking to folks, he's going take care of it as it gets translated, and the people scribing the bible are going to be very careful not to mess up.

Here and there you might find something but on average you can compare it any of classical work and its consistency and number of
recovered copies is remarkable, dare I say divine.

I read many english verisons. Sometimes hearing a verse phrased 4 or 5 different ways helps you understand it.

I don't speak late-middle english well so the KJV is sometimes hard to read.

Sometimes its fruitful to pull out a greek version with a dictionary and get the true intent of the words.

For example, there's like 3 different types of love with individual words in greek. When translated to english, there's just the word "love".

So when you want to how so-and-so loved someone you can reference the greek then pick out the love word and find out if the useage of love was fraternal, romantic, or familial etc.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 22, 2003, 1:36 am

for example:

"There are more than 5,686 known [partial or complete] Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Add over 10,000 Latin Vulgate and at least 9,300 other early versions [manuscripts], and we have close to, if not more than, 25,000 manuscript copies of portions of the New Testament in existence today. No other document of antiquity even begins to approach such numbers and attestation. In comparison, Homer’s Illiad is second, with only 643 manuscripts that still survive." (McDowell, The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict, p. 34)

Here's more info on why the bible is unique among other works, if you're interested: link

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » July 22, 2003, 3:02 am

Adex, your theory assume that those men translating were trying to do God's work. What is some of those translating or transcribing were doing just the opposite or trying to keep themselves in power?

Did anyone ever see "Stigmata"? IMHO it's probably not far from the truth in regards to the repression of original documentation... some churches have wielded power for almost 2000 years. They aren't going to give that up easily... no matter what the TRUTH is...

My theory is that the Bible is the inspired work of God, not infallable as it's been touched by the hands of men. However I believe through prayer He will lead us to the correct understanding of It and what we need to learn.

Marb

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » July 22, 2003, 4:29 am

Stigmata for being a horror/suspense movie had one of the best messages ever in a movie.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 22, 2003, 8:56 am

masteen wrote:Did you ever play Shadowrun?

On topic, if they ever get this doohickey to act as a credit card, I'd get it implanted in my fucking forehead if necessary. Anything to get me out of the grocery store 5 minutes faster.

I sure did! Best game evar made. I still await a good single or multiplayer Shadowrun type of game....maybe something with a module creator like NWN. I would masturbate feverishly at the mere announcement of it.

But as I have done more research on the Native Americans, I have found that it was not just the Mayans who believed the 2011/2012 cleansing of the planet. (I have seen 2012 mentioned as well as 2011)

Post by **Xouqoa** » July 22, 2003, 10:15 am

I predict the world will end in 2083.

(Just getting my prediction in, so in case the Mayans and American Indians are wrong like all the people that said 2000/2001 would be the end, I can say 'YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST ON VEESHANVAULT!')

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 22, 2003, 10:31 am

Xouqoa wrote:I predict the world will end in 2083.

(Just getting my prediction in, so in case the Mayans and American Indians are wrong like all the people that said 2000/2001 would be the end, I can say 'YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST ON VEESHANVAULT!')

The Mayans and Amer Indiands did not say the world would end. They say that there will be some sort of big change in the energies of the earth.

FAG!

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 22, 2003, 11:24 am

Marbus, if someone tried to doctor a version of the bible to suit their personal needs, it would stick out like a sore thumb compared to all the other copies and manuscripts. Since the bible is internationalized it prevents(ed) one particual political movement from warping it.

It is quite within God's power to preserve the message over time. This is his primary way of talking to people, of course he'll "inspire" people to keep it supernatually consistant.

While I agree that prayer is a primary tool to accompany bible reading, I don't agree that prayer is necessary to "fix" errors in the bible. I notice that some hold on to the idea of a flawed bible so they can selectively exclude parts of it they don't agree with. Taking a step in that direction is dangerous, because it replaces God's morality, with a fallable person's morality. That's not something I want to bank my salvation on.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » July 22, 2003, 11:30 am

Adex_Xeda wrote:Marbus, if someone tried to doctor a version of the bible to suit their personal needs, it would stick out like a sore thumb compared to all the other copies and manuscripts. Since the bible is internationalized it prevents(ed) one particual political movement from warping it.

Yeah, because Christians never went on crusades against "infidels" who didn't share their exact belief system, sacked their centers of learning, or burned down their libraries

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » July 22, 2003, 11:56 am

Release the Dead Sea Scrolls!!!

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 22, 2003, 12:18 pm

Actually Masteen the crusaders sacked people that AGREED with their belief system as well as others.

Relgion has little to do with the Crusades.

Why?, because the crusades weren't inspired by God, they were inspired by greed of plunder and by political types that were trying to gain favor with a Pope who was more interested in politics than in being a priest.

Post by **Sylvus** » July 22, 2003, 12:36 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Why?, because the crusades weren't inspired by God, they were inspired by greed of plunder and by political types that were trying to gain favor with a Pope who was more interested in politics than in being a priest.

And he is one of the imperfect human specimens that your God created. Just like those people that God dictated his Word to, and everyone who has ever had anything to do with preserving that Word. He bestowed all of us with free will, and to think that any of the myriad of cooks that had their hands in the pot that is the Bible were perfect is to be completely naive. Adam and Eve lived in bare-ass-naked paradise, and God told them not to do one tiny little thing and they fucked it up, what makes you think that 2000 years of religious officials and translators could do better? The Bible is absolutely, 100% flawed.

That said, it still contains some good information. Good moral examples are given and that Jesus character seems like a real stand-up guy. I am in no way trying to make you think the Bible isn't a valuable reference source, and quite possibly the closest thing to God's Word that is out there. I am trying to stress that it isn't close to being a book-on-tape recording of God's autobiography. It's his unauthorized biography at best, and more likely his E! True Hollywood Story.

The Bible's not bad, though I prefer Aesop. He's a bit more entertaining, and those animal stories crack me up every time!

masteen · Post by **masteen** » July 22, 2003, 12:48 pm

My point, Adex, was that they annihilated every bastion of learning that existed. They burned down the Great Library of Alexandria, which had knowledge from ancient Sumer, Bablyon, and Assyria that could never be replaced.

So of course all the existing texts agree with each other. Everything that didn't was fucking destroyed by the Church.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » July 22, 2003, 12:49 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Welp, if God chose the bible to be his way of talking to folks, he's going take care of it as it gets translated, and the people scribing the bible are going to be very careful not to mess up.

Using that line of logic adex. If god chose the pope as his instrument here on earth, wouldn't he take care of that to make sure it doesn't get 'messed up'...and yes there has been much 'messing up' in papal history.

Adex wrote:I don't speak late-middle english well so the KJV is sometimes hard to read.

The KJV is horrid. There are numerous spins. You can set a NIV next to a KJV and read them together...you'd be quite surprised at the number of 'additions' in the KJV...sadly I can't quote verses for example...I have forgotten them all thankfully.

Adex wrote:It is quite within God's power to preserve the message over time. This is his primary way of talking to people, of course he'll "inspire" people to keep it supernatually consistant.

What is this? Selective miracles? He can intervene in human life if it serves his needs?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 22, 2003, 12:52 pm

well if you believe that the Bible should be interpretted literally, you have no choice but to engage in a series of rationalizations about how God would have to micromanage every step along the way, every synaptic event in the 400 years of Oral Tradition before the Torah was written down in Jeruselem. God had to manage the intracellular calcium distributions over billions (trillions?) of nerve terminals to make sure that the proper connections were maintained. Moreover, he had to control exactly what words came out of thousands of peoples mouths in order to make sure that they accurately communicated the Word. etc, etc etc.

Adex is right that the number of translations out there do exist in a way to ensure some degree of error correction in the process. But that error correction probably will only be done in circles of Biblical scholars. Let's say that your church uses the Good 'Ole Bible, nobody at your church is going to be likely to cross reference 'primary' sources to make sure the translations are accurate. Biblical scholars may realize that the Good 'Ole Bible is innacurrate in a number of areas because it is part of a "family tree" that is erroneous for whatever reasons. Moreover it isnt against the law to publish and sell a Bible that is misleading. But the end result is a bunch of people in church oblivious to those facts. But hey, pastors/priests never lie or mislead people, so there is nothing to worry about there....

Masteen's point is also excellent. If all other information sources were pruned out of the developing tree long ago, what follows them in time is limited in scope.

Why are there so many versions of the Bible? Because each Christian denomination wants to have their own version that emphasizes the points that make them different than other Christian denominations. Religion is fundamentally about social affiliation and being part of a community. Bible versions, and hence their accuracy in translation/interpretation are part of that community framework, and like all things that are part of human social groups are subject to the inherent "frailties".

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 22, 2003, 12:56 pm

?

The great library of Alexandra was destroyed in 391 A.D

The first crusade was in 1096.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 22, 2003, 1:00 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote: But as I have done more research on the Native Americans, I have found that it was not just the Mayans who believed the 2011/2012 cleansing of the planet. (I have seen 2012 mentioned as well as 2011)

I've also heard the year 2112 by a secretive Rush cult!

We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx
Our great computers fill the hallowed halls.
We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx
All the gifts of life are held within our walls.

Very very ancient text....ignore "computers"

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 22, 2003, 1:19 pm

Voronwe, God is quite able to perform the impossible.

You see unlike us he has infinite capabilities.

Is it possible that God helped to preserve oral tradition accurately? Yup, it's not outside his ability. I'd also mention to you that during the period that you term oral traditions there *were* written manuscripts to refer to.

Truant,

God chooses on his own accord when he's going ot intervene or just let us run rampant. You'll have to talk to him about his timing. I can't speak for that. I do know that sense God sees the whole of reality at a glance, his timing to intervene is perfect despite our not understanding it his reasons at times.

We are a dream in the mind of God. This entire reality serves his fancy. Just like your dreams do. Fortunately for us, God is offering us the opportunity to exist after this dream of his ends. It's an open invitation through Jesus.

Are humans flawed? Yup. Do we do horendous things? Yup.

The fact that we can do sinful things shows that God has given us the choice to choose for ourselves how to act, and to deal with the result of those acts.

To be angry at God because he allows evil to happen is to be mad at God for granting free will.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » July 22, 2003, 2:23 pm

By "they" Adex, I meant Christians, not necessarily the Crusaders.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 22, 2003, 2:28 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:
The fact that we can do sinful things shows that God has given us the choice to choose for ourselves how to act, and to deal with the result of those acts.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 22, 2003, 2:36 pm

You see unlike us he has infinite capabilities

and you know this, how?

because it is in the bible, and the bible says whatever is in the bible is true, right? right

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » July 22, 2003, 3:28 pm

Burke wrote:If god is omnipotent, he doesn't need to "win".

Since God is omnipotent, and knows the begining and the end, he's already won. We just haven't gotten to that part yet. Actually, won isn't precisely the right word, as that would assume that there was an equal or competitor to him. Rather the being the creator of all.

The KJV follows what records that exist much better than most recent versions, and comapres well against written works from he period(s). The NIV and many others were written to make money, and as an attempt to justify behavior that is clearly against the rules.

*Edit - And as an aside, if you only read the black part of the bible it's very consistant within itself.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 22, 2003, 3:31 pm

More than that Voronwe.

If you look at the world, and examine the evidence, things point towards intelligent design.

If you follow what the bible says you get in contact with someone who fits the bill as the intelligent designer.

It all fits together.

Let me rephrase.

I reached out to God and he answers. I reached out in a way consistant with the bible. The bible says God has no limits. Evidence in the universe suggests intelligent design. Creation of the universe must be from someone who is immesureably powerful. It makes sense that this intelligent designer just might be the powerful God that I talk to.

That is why I belive God is infinite in capability compared to me or you.

Burke · Post by **Burke** » July 22, 2003, 3:45 pm

If the logic line is that anything that seems to have an intelligent design must have been created by some sentient creator, then who created god?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 22, 2003, 3:58 pm

things do not point towards intelligent design, even if you believe them to.

the universe is organized along fundamental principles that we are beginning to understand. The question is does this imply it was "Designed"?

"Intelligent design" is in my opinion a term that creationist try to use to lend some pseudo-scientific credence to their beliefs, basically trying to take some information from science to buffet the argument, while discarding the bits that would cast doubt (like humans evolved from apes).

If God can exist as self-Creator, and he is obviously some sort of complex, nonrandom phenomenon that, then why does the universe need a creator? If you are not comfortable with the idea that the 'universe just exists', then how can you be comfortable with the idea that 'God just exists'. It is certainly an interesting discussion topic, but ultimately the answer is probably unknowable, as it is impossible as we understand it to understand anything that would have preceeded the expansion phase of the universe.

I mean ultimately what is the difference between saying that God simply exists as it is and the universe simply exists as it is? If the Universe, because it has underlying organization requires a Creator, then so must God. My point is inherent organization does not necessitate "design".

There are many self-organizing phenomena in nature. Slime mold is a neat example. most of slime mold's life is spent as single celled organisms in the dirt eating and stuff. when food is scarce, there is an increasing probability that an individual slime mold organism will send out a pulse of cAMP (a common biological signaling molecule). This signal ultimately leads to the formation of a multicellular 'organism' from thousands of individual single celled organisms that sends out spores so that the species can populate new areas that are hopefully nutrient rich. Now you can say that the design is in the DNA, and we can go round and round about that too =). it is all very interesting though!

So ultimately my hair splitting was really to get to this point: yes i understand that you believe God is omnipotent. But that does not make it so.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 22, 2003, 3:59 pm

I don't know Burke. It's a question that given our frame of reality I doubt we'll be able to answer.

What if the very act of creation is a "creation" of God? In that case it stops with him.

So many questions, so hard to find answers.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 22, 2003, 4:00 pm

hey but at least we'll never run out of cool stuff to talk about =)

masteen · Post by **masteen** » July 22, 2003, 4:04 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:If you look at the world, and examine the evidence, things point towards intelligent design.

It all fits together.

From what we know about the universe, I'd call it anything but and intelligent design. To form just enough heavy elements to form our solar system it takes multiple super massive stars going supernova, a process that takes at least 5000 years even in the universe's earliest days. I know time has no meaning to God, but what an inefficient mess.

Now, the Nissan 350Z, THAT'S intelligent design!

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 22, 2003, 4:06 pm

keep it up Masteen and you'll end up a pillar of salt!