Tour de France thread.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » July 14, 2003, 3:36 am

Kelshara wrote:Also, I do not like when one person or one team dominates a sport for too long. I think competition and variety is needed to keep a sport healthy and interesting.

You're obviously a football fan.

noel · Post by **noel** » July 14, 2003, 12:32 pm

This morning's result was absolutely horrible. On one of the final turns Lance's chief competitor, Joseba Beloki, lost control of his bike during a high speed descent, and slammed into the ground on his right hip and elbow. One of the cameramen stopped near him, and you could see blood all over him, and hear him sobbing. It was truly horrible.

I didn't really like Beloki in the past because he'd say he was going to attack, but he wouldn't. This year was different. He was one of the many riders taking shots at Lance and constanly attacking. He had a very legitimate chance to win if Lance had made a mistake. It's a real shame.

Beloki crashed approximately 20 feet in front of Lance at a speed of about 55mph. He broke too hard, rolled and then popped his tire. One of my first thoughts as Beloki's bike was lying in the middle of the road was, "Oh shit, Lance has nowhere to go to avoid crashing." Somehow, Lance went offroad to avoid crashing as well, and after a remarkable piece of riding, he was able to reintegrate himself into the lead group and finish with the other riders.

The lone stage winner that Beloki and Armstrong were attempting to catch, Alexandre Vinokourov finished 36 seconds ahead of Armstrong, and though Armstrong retains the yellow jersey, his overall lead on Vinokourov is only 21 seconds.

Today was another really defensive day for US Postal, and though Lance showed flashes of his former self, he still has yet to exert any real dominance on the Tour.

I'm fairly certain that today was the last day in the Alps. Tomorrow's stage is 219k and largely downhill. Wednesday is the rest day. The Pyrenees are coming up soon.

Edit: Just found this:

Edit2: and this:

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 14, 2003, 3:13 pm

ahahaha pink tights.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » July 14, 2003, 3:16 pm

I must admit part of my reason to watch the Tour is gone. Beloki was VERY aggressive this year, and I was really looking forward to watching the rest of Beloki vs Armstrong and US Postal vs Once. I believe Once had one of the few teams able to push hard enough to rival Postal, and now they basicly have no reason to even finish it. I love tight competitions, and this pretty much ruined it for me. Vinokourov might be good, but I don't think he nor CSC will last. I also believe Hamilton, even though he is impressive as hell, wont last the entire Tour with the pains he has.

Anyway, as for Lance.. I was a bit disappointed he did not try to follow Vinokourov when he took off, he knew from yesterday that the guy is in a damn good shape. Also, his competitors managed to stick with him fairly easily when he made his move. He was extremely impressive last year, but I sort of wonder if his legs are a bit weaker this year.

Oh and as for his attitude.. I was going to say arrogant, but figured some would throw the typica Euro vs US BS about it so I mellowed it down a bit. You can be self confident without being arrogant, an easy example would be from Formula 1 where Kimi Raikonen is self condident, while Michael Schumacher is self confident AND arrogant. Hence why more and more people cheer on his competitors.

And yes I like football.

Edit: Armstrong got damn lucky that he avoided first Beloki and then the ditch as he entered the field. If he had hid the ditch he would have been chewing grass. Not to mention that he avoided a flat tire!

noel · Post by **noel** » July 14, 2003, 3:34 pm

Kelshara wrote:I must admit part of my reason to watch the Tour is gone. Beloki was VERY aggressive this year, and I was really looking forward to watching the rest of Beloki vs Armstrong and US Postal vs Once. I believe Once had one of the few teams able to push hard enough to rival Postal, and now they basicly have no reason to even finish it. I love tight competitions, and this pretty much ruined it for me. Vinokourov might be good, but I don't think he nor CSC will last. I also believe Hamilton, even though he is impressive as hell, wont last the entire Tour with the pains he has.

Anyway, as for Lance.. I was a bit disappointed he did not try to follow Vinokourov when he took off, he knew from yesterday that the guy is in a damn good shape. Also, his competitors managed to stick with him fairly easily when he made his move. He was extremely impressive last year, but I sort of wonder if his legs are a bit weaker this year.

...

Edit: Armstrong got damn lucky that he avoided first Beloki and then the ditch as he entered the field. If he had hid the ditch he would have been chewing grass. Not to mention that he avoided a flat tire!

I actually think Tyler can make it the whole way, though it remains to be seen. He's made some incredible efforts I never would have thought possible and he's shown (yesterday) he's still able to attack on a climb as difficult as L'Alpe d'Huez. I don't think Tyler will be able to make up time unless those in front of him make mistakes, but with two individual time trials coming up, he should easily pass Mayo.

Why US Postal is giving Vinokourov freedom to attack is beyond me. With Botero nowhere in the standings and with a team that's used to supporting Ulrich, I think Vino's in an ideal spot. 21 seconds is nothing with the Pyrenees looming in the future, and Vino's already shown he can win this year during the Tour of Switzerland. I see him as a very credible threat to the overall.

I definitely see how Armstrong comes off as arrogant at times. Not going to disagree with you at all, but I would say that he doesn't mean to be. I think in his mind, he's just being matter of fact.

The fact that Lance was able to a) avoid the crash, b) make it across the grass, c) avoid the ditch, d) run across it without falling wearing cycling shoes (this isn't too bad in cyclo-cross or mountain biking shoes which are designed for dismount situations), and e) not get killed by the oncoming cyclists when he remounted... was nothing short of incredible. I've been in crash situations on group rides, where someone crashes in front of you, and it's very difficult. The natural reaction is to look at whatever incident is occuring in front of you, but the correct thing to do is to look where you can escape to. Additionally, if you do end up off road, the best thing to do is to brake VERY slowly, and try to go in as straight a line as possible, and pray you can get back onto solid ground and you don't hit anything. Very, very scary.

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » July 14, 2003, 6:00 pm

noel · Post by **noel** » July 14, 2003, 6:04 pm

He was diagnosed with a fractured upper femur, a complex fracture of the right elbow, a simple fracture of the right finger and multiple contusions to the hip.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 14, 2003, 7:25 pm

Raistin wrote:

I look like that when I use epilady on my legs too.

noel · Post by **noel** » July 14, 2003, 7:47 pm

The epilady scares the shit out of me!

Latys/Talys · Post by **Latys/Talys** » July 14, 2003, 8:02 pm

Lol you guys are following this too?

I went to see several times Le tour when I was a child in les etapes des pyrennees and des alpes. I have very good memories of that, it was great. At least, the frenchs were ruling at that time. Vive Bernard Hinault (alias le blaireau) et Laurent Fignon !

Now, we have a texan dude with le maillot jaune, WTF!

noel · Post by **noel** » July 14, 2003, 8:05 pm

Latys/Talys wrote:Lol you guys are following this too?

I've been following it pretty religiously for about 9 years now.

Now, we have a texan dude with le maillot jaune, WTF!

Where have you been for the last 4 years?

Latys/Talys · Post by **Latys/Talys** » July 14, 2003, 8:09 pm

wtf where? I was in norrath duh!

noel · Post by **noel** » July 14, 2003, 8:11 pm

Hehe... I think I'm one of about 10 people on this board that follows the tour, and I think I probably bore a lot of the other people with it. I guess I at least try to keep it to a single thread, so that's good I guess.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » July 14, 2003, 9:24 pm

it's a little late I guess...but today's stage was intense...I didn't like to see beloki crash, but I was amazed at how lance handled it. As for the USPS team tactics...i dunno...I guess they're saving some energy for another couple of days...*shrug* the announcers say every day, tomorrow is the day blah blah blah...seems like noone has their strategy pinned down...which could be a very good thing...or it could mean they don't have one, but I highly doubt that.

noel · Post by **noel** » July 14, 2003, 11:07 pm

The only thing I was thinking of was that they're playing a ruthless game of poker that involves saving themselves for the first set of mountains, and only countering attacks from the principal players in an effort to tire them out so that Lance can just destroy them in the second half, but honestly, I just think that for whatever reason, he's doesn't have the same form that he usually does. I mean, he's countering every attack, which is incredibly difficult, but normally he's the one who does the attacking, and normally it's an attack that no one else can counter.

I guess the good news is that all the people that said it would be easy for him this year are finding out just how easy the TdF isn't.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » July 15, 2003, 4:17 am

What i'm beginning to wonder is if the game isn't to sucker everyone into thinking it's all he has in him is to counter, and he's going to pull the cards out of his sleeves and blow the doors off that bitch. but that's complete random speculation.
Some of these guys are running themselves HARD to take that finish line first...it's gonna take it's toll.

We'll see

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 15, 2003, 9:47 am

I didn't bother reading the thread because I'm not a big bicycling fan, but yeah your title made me click on it and now I'm utterly disappointed.

Maybe you should change the title to: "Bicycling, the 3 people who give a fuck click here."

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » July 15, 2003, 3:09 pm

Because everybody cares what you think!

noel · Post by **noel** » July 15, 2003, 5:16 pm

Xyun wrote:I didn't bother reading the thread because I'm not a big bicycling fan, but yeah your title made me click on it and now I'm utterly disappointed.

Maybe you should change the title to: "Bicycling, the 3 people who give a fuck click here."

Your title change is probably fairly accurate. Cycling is a very popular sport in Europe (there were half a million people watching the race on the slopes of L'Alpe d'Huez), but in a lot of the rest of the world, lawn bowling is probably more popular. You'll notice that there's no sports section here on Veeshanvault. You'll also notice that I've kept this discussion to a single thread.

I'm not surprised at all that you weren't interested in this thread. It's exceedingly obvious that the only thing you do care about Xyun, is yourself. I say this not to flame you, but it's the reality. If you feel I'm misrepresenting you, let me know and I'll rescind that comment, but I think you'll probably agree.

At any rate, as with all threads, it's perfectly acceptable for you to not click on it, and not enjoy it.

Peace.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » July 15, 2003, 5:19 pm

What Aranuil meant to say was that we need a Sports Forum! chop chop

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 15, 2003, 5:23 pm

if there was a sports forum there'd still be no place for posts about cycling competitions.

(har har)

Laliana · Post by **Laliana** » July 15, 2003, 5:37 pm

Aranuil wrote:
Xyun wrote:Maybe you should change the title to: "Bicycling, the 3 people who give a fuck click here."
Your title change is probably fairly accurate. At any rate, as with all threads, it's perfectly acceptable for you to not click on it, and not enjoy it.

The current title is misleading and I was disappointed to find it was about cycling. Had it been titled differently, such as Xyun suggested, I wouldn't have clicked on it either.

Post by **Sylvus** » July 15, 2003, 5:43 pm

I've never really seen the appeal of watching any form of racing. I hate to lump cycling fans in with NASCAR people (well... you aren't rednecks, afaik) but it all seems pretty similar to me. Being that I'm a huge (American) football fan, I realize that probably seems just as strange to some of you as cycling is to me. Anyone care to enlighten me on the appeal of watching cycling? That is, if there is something other than it's just what floats your boat?

I know Aranuil participates in the sport, so I guess I can see how watching the top people in a sport you enjoy competing in would be entertaining, how about the rest of you? I think the reason racing doesn't really appeal to me all that much - and I'm sure this is just my own ignorance talking - is that it seems like the best equipment (car, horse, legs - depending on which form of racing) is more important than skill. Is Armstrong that much better at racing than the other people, or has he just trained harder and is in better shape? I'm sure there is a lot of skill involved, I just don't see where it comes in, and therein lies my ignorance.

Topper · Post by **Topper** » July 15, 2003, 5:57 pm

hmm, the only types of race i wont watch are motor.

Im an athlete, and i guess i have some kind of respect for the many hours that these athletes train. Cycling is very demanding, and the fact that lance is from where i live currently.. has something to do with my level of interest.

Lance trains everyday, rides miles and miles, just like everyone in the sport. All of them work hard. I respect that greatly.

Anyway, i dont know if that answers a thing, but thats my intake on my level of interest.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 15, 2003, 5:57 pm

There's actually a lot of strategy in races like the tour, because they last so fucking long that you can't sprint it the entire time. you have to pace yourself and time your attacks and try to outplay the other guys. its a balancing act with your stamina and your power.

I don't like cycling as a sport because it's too dependent on your equipment. people with money/sponsors to spend on better bikes have more of an advantage over people that don't. pro races should all have one industry standard bike that all competitors have to use.

noel · Post by **noel** » July 15, 2003, 6:46 pm

kyoukan wrote:There's actually a lot of strategy in races like the tour, because they last so fucking long that you can't sprint it the entire time. you have to pace yourself and time your attacks and try to outplay the other guys. its a balancing act with your stamina and your power.

Well said. Cycling is one of those sports where if you just watch it once, and take it at face value, you'll miss a lot of the tactics, and strategy going on within a given race. Autoracing isn't really a fair comparison because of the dependence upon the machine to do the work, or possibly fail, and marathon type racing isn't really a fair comparison because of the team nature of cycling.

Cycling is not a sport you're going to understand right away unless you really give it a chance (watch it a lot), or have someone watching it with you that can really explain what's going on.

I don't like cycling as a sport because it's too dependent on your equipment. people with money/sponsors to spend on better bikes have more of an advantage over people that don't. pro races should all have one industry standard bike that all competitors have to use.

I don't agree with this at all. All of the riders bikes are the top of whatever manufacturers line their team happens to be sponsored by, but given the riders who have changed teams/bikes from year to year. Mario Cipollini is a good example (he won on Cannondale, then Specialized), and given that a large majority of the bikes you can walk into a shop and purchase, I simply don't agree. I've seen enough people go out and purchase top of the line bikes, and get immediately blown off the back of a moving peloton, that I understand intimately that it's the rider, not the bike that makes the race. Most of those riders you could put on nearly any manufacturers bike, and they could win.

The most expensive bikes in the tour this year are being ridden by Rabobank (Colnago C40s with custom frames I think) and retail for around $6k, wheras the US Postal bikes (off the shelf/non-custom frame Trek 5900s) come in at just over $4k.

The real difference between the teams is in the coaching, doctors, accomodations, chef(s), mechanics, chiropractors, soigneurs, directors, and most importantly, the team riders.

I've pretty much always participated in, or liked fringe sports, so it's nothing new for me to like a sport that only a handful of others like. I was a springboard diver in high-school, beach volleyball player shortly after that, and then I started cycling, and did a triathalon. All of these sports don't have the wide appeal of baseball, football, or basketball, here in the US.

Sylvus, Armstong is a genetic freak for a variety of reasons, and that's allowed him the innate-talent to be a great cyclist, but his work ethic is heads and tails above anyone else in the sport.

I'll change the thread title.

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » July 15, 2003, 11:16 pm

Aranuil wrote:The real difference between the teams is in the coaching, doctors, accomodations, chef(s), mechanics, chiropractors, soigneurs, directors, and most importantly, the team riders.

Aaaaaand the doping.

noel · Post by **noel** » July 15, 2003, 11:49 pm

Mplor wrote:
Aranuil wrote:The real difference between the teams is in the coaching, doctors, accomodations, chef(s), mechanics, chiropractors, soigneurs, directors, and most importantly, the team riders.
Aaaaaand the doping.

Doping and cycling have a long history for sure. Cyclists today are some of the most stringently tested athletes on the planet.

Of course unlike some other sports *cough*football, baseball, basketball, hockey, JUST TO NAME A FEW*cough* they actually TEST cyclists for performance enhancing drugs.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » July 16, 2003, 12:58 am

Think Mplor was referring to a past accusation by French authorities that Lance Armstrong was using illegal substances. As far as I remember hearing, that was shot down as pure whiny BS.

As for following the Tour, I admit that I don't watch what I really *could* watch, but I do catch updates when I have a few minutes at :50 past the hour on our local time warner news station here in Austin. I haven't had time to do much at all lately due to mucho overtime at work, and getting things set up to move at the end of the month.

I wouldn't only like to see Lance win because he lives here or because he's a US rider... from everything I have seen about him, and heard from him, he's real which is something I would be hard pressed to say about some of the other athletes I have had the honor to meet.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 16, 2003, 2:46 am

It's exceedingly obvious that the only thing you do care about Xyun, is yourself. I say this not to flame you, but it's the reality. If you feel I'm misrepresenting you, let me know and I'll rescind that comment, but I think you'll probably agree.

If you mean to say that I'm cocky you are right!! Here you go, buddy.

But there are things that I enjoy and care about like music, games, and d-d-d-d-d-drugs. As far as sports go, only football americana truly appeals to me. Baseball, although widely accepted as a sport, is not one. It is a game. There is a difference between a sport and a game. Cycling is a sport. Golf is a game. Basketball is a sport. Chess is a game etc.

My criteria? A sport requires tremendous physical exertion, whereas a game requires minor physical exertion.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 16, 2003, 3:46 am

so is ballet a sport?

Topper · Post by **Topper** » July 16, 2003, 4:03 am

kyoukan wrote:so is ballet a sport?

My last g/f was a dancer, damn fine too. Er, but anyway, i would say that with some of the definitions of "sport" and "game" dancing is definitly a sport. Doing a routine is extremly demanding.

Eventhough i would never do drill team routines, i would classify dance as a sport, because it takes massive physical ability and desire to get things down right. You have to practice dance like you would practice for any other sport.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » July 16, 2003, 1:01 pm

It's rest day, but thought I'd toss observations from yesterday.

The handshake between Piil and Sacchi was nice to see

Those guys worked their ass off and couldn't have done it without the other. It was refreshing to see that kind of sportsmanship.

Time trials tomorrow...wee!

noel · Post by **noel** » July 16, 2003, 2:08 pm

Truant wrote:It's rest day, but thought I'd toss observations from yesterday.

The handshake between Piil and Sacchi was nice to see Those guys worked their ass off and couldn't have done it without the other. It was refreshing to see that kind of sportsmanship.

Time trials tomorrow...wee!

Time trials Friday, sir!

Truant · Post by **Truant** » July 16, 2003, 2:46 pm

err yeah i knew that...and thursday is a relatively short stage ><

Tegellan · Post by **Tegellan** » July 16, 2003, 3:01 pm

I am a Dane, so watching Piil win yesterday was big, i had my heart in my throat on that last kilometer hehe. Watching them shake hands before going in for the finish was great, not often you see that kind of stuff.

Piil is an old 6 day race rider, so i was pretty sure he would win, he has some good speed when he has to, nothing like a sprinter but i was fairly sure he could outpace Sacchi.

Exciting tour this year until now, can't wait for the single start

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 16, 2003, 5:27 pm

so is ballet a sport?

Ballet falls into the category of "I don't know wtf that is" along with ping-pong and synchronized swimming.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » July 16, 2003, 5:50 pm

The handshake symbolized to me what true sportmanship is and what the Tour is truly about. Was great to watch it.

Also, was great to see Piil win. He deserved it after losing his pedal last year, although that DID help Hushovd win that stage so I should be happy it happened

Grats to my fellow Scandinavians!

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » July 16, 2003, 11:29 pm

I am not a race fan but I do see results and events that happen on CNN. From what I have been seeing it is almost like people are gunning to take Lance out of the race. How many more things can go wrong before he is hurt and unable to finish.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » July 17, 2003, 6:12 am

Nobody is gunning to take him out. If they wanted to, that could probably be done fairly easily, but that is not how cycling and the Tour is done. He was involved in the first accident at stage 1 I believe, and also one later (which I believe was between him and Heras), but they are what I would call race incidents. Shit happens.

noel · Post by **noel** » July 17, 2003, 7:09 am

Agreed. That's not how cycling works.

Lance is actually fairly well respected within the pro peloton. The riders who want to beat him, want to beat him by out cycling him, not by taking him out.

Tegellan · Post by **Tegellan** » July 17, 2003, 4:59 pm

Not too exciting today I personally think, but tomorrow is the single start! By far my favorite days I must admit, now it's mano a mano, no team to hide behind, let's see what everyone has in their legs

noel · Post by **noel** » July 17, 2003, 5:15 pm

Agreed. They don't call Time Trials, 'The Race of Truth' for nothing. We'll see tomorrow if Lance has been playing a mean game of poker or if he's really considerably weaker than he's been in years past.

Given the way he's been reponding to attacks, I suggest the former.

I really, really hope that Ulrich and Hamilton have a good TT.

Drolgin Steingrinder · Post by **Drolgin Steingrinder** » July 18, 2003, 7:39 am

Been absent from this thread a few days, let me just state how grrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat it was to see Piil win.

As for the time trials, no doubt Hamilton will do well - he faked his injury, didn't you hear? *snort*

I always hated Walter Goodefroot, now I remember why. Pig-faced little fucker...

Kwonryu DragonFist · Post by **Kwonryu DragonFist** » July 18, 2003, 8:00 am

There is doping in all kinds of sports these days....

except bodybuilding! ALL NATURAL!

Yo! This WAS a woman before all the Jungle Juice!

Tegellan · Post by **Tegellan** » July 18, 2003, 10:46 am

Whatever that is, it made me queasy...

Stop trying to hijack the thread Grakk!

noel · Post by **noel** » July 18, 2003, 12:44 pm

Well...

When I said I wanted Ulrich and Hamilton to have great time trials, I didn't think Ullrich was going to be capable of what we saw this morning.

What an exceptional ride. Simply an amazing performance over a very rough and technical course that I would have said favored Armstrong prior to today. Based on this morning's performance, the advantage has swung dramatically in Jan Ullrich's favor. In order for Lance to win the overall, he will have to attack in the Pyrenees and take at least 2-3 minutes out of Ullrich, and with a vigilant Ullrich, that's going to be more difficult than any challenge Lance has ever had in the Tour.

Hamilton moved up into fourth place, which is an exceptional ride, but he's still 2:08 behind Vinokourov. It's going to be very difficult for Hamilton to make up that time in the remaining stages.

At this point, based on everything we've seen so far, I don't think Lance will win this year. If he doesn't pull something from somewhere, he'll be lucky to make the podium at all.

Tegellan · Post by **Tegellan** » July 18, 2003, 2:23 pm

Have to agree with you Aranuil, was a truly exceptional ride Ullrich pulled off today. Taking 1.35 from Armstrong i would have thought impossible, but when they were tied at the 13 km mark you could see Armstrong was panting and you just knew it had to hurt. Didn't think he would lsoe that much time though.

I am sure as hell going to be glued to the tv for the next couple of days. Most exciting tour in years.

Kwonryu DragonFist · Post by **Kwonryu DragonFist** » July 18, 2003, 10:44 pm

Gah!

My Hijackin' didn't work!

too many Tour de France fanatics!

noel · Post by **noel** » July 19, 2003, 12:32 pm

Amazing that Lance was able to hold onto yellow after today. I honestly didn't think he'd be able to respond to Ullrich's attack. He now has a sub 20 second lead. He's claiming he lost 15 lbs. of liquid in yesterday's time trial. Personally, I find that very hard to believe. I'd have thought he'd learned his lesson about eating and hydration on the bike in the 2000 tour. I think he's in deep trouble at the moment.

At least no one will say that this year's tour was easy for him.

Look forward to tomorrow's stage being even HARDER. ><

VeeshanVault

Tour de France thread.

woah

Re: woah