Time for heads to roll...

Salis · Post by **Salis** » July 9, 2003, 8:37 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3054549.stm

Looks like we're lining up for some real political carnage over in the UK, I can only hope the US is considering the same. I'm saddened and shamed that our governments are yet again trying to spin their way out of the shit.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 9, 2003, 8:57 pm

The difference between the two situations is that Blair duped the public into attacking Iraq because he convinced them to be concered that they were a threat. He put his credibility on the line and now he is probably going to pay for it.

Americans allowed themselves to be duped so they could go and kick mooslim terrorist ass in retribution for 9/11. Bush could come out tomorrow and admit he just wanted to shoot darkies and steal their oil, then wave a flag and scream USA USA USA NAVER FORGET LETS ROLL and his popularity would probably go up.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » July 9, 2003, 9:46 pm

im still wondering why iraq wasnt letting the UN guys do thier thing, they had to be hiding something, maybe those paintings?

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 9, 2003, 11:02 pm

Best case senario you find the WMD and free 25 million people from a tyrant.

Worst case senario you free 25 million people from a tyrant.

A good thing is done either way in my book.

Crav · Post by **Crav** » July 9, 2003, 11:24 pm

Yea we helped them get the freedom to shot some American soldiers. So when exactly are we going to start handing power over to the Iraqis?

Acies · Post by **Acies** » July 9, 2003, 11:37 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Best case senario you find the WMD and free 25 million people from a tyrant.

Worst case senario you free 25 million people from a tyrant.

A good thing is done either way in my book.

Nono, worst case scenario is the U.N. grows a spine and ends America due to our hostile nazi-esque actions. I am sure Saddam deserved to be shot and killed, but not without sanction, being the leader of a U.N. nation himself.
We are not the cops of the world.
Frankly, I hope Bush gets crucified for his actions, and not my country.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 10, 2003, 12:36 am

HA!

You guys hate Bush so bad you can't even admit we helped some folks out of oppression.

I understand where you coming from, I disliked Clinton so much that even his good efforts were stained dark when I saw them.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 10, 2003, 12:54 am

Lots of countries are oppressed. You going to "free" them too or just the ones rich with natural resources in an industry that your president's virtually entire cabinet has a vested personal and financial interest in? The fact of the matter is that your government doesn't give two fucking shits about the Iraqi people or any other country that's oppressed.

Anyone with a fucking brain (so certainly nobody you'd be exposed to regularly where you live in the land of toby keith and inbred stupidity) isn't fooled for a second over the entire "omg we liberated the iraqis from their plight" line of bullshit.

Iraq just lost one ruling dictator and got another one. At least their old dictatorial government was actually from Iraq.

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » July 10, 2003, 1:46 am

At least Saddam knew how to keep order. They didnt act like wild animals when he was ruler. Just a few animals ran Iraq.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » July 10, 2003, 2:00 am

Adex_Xeda wrote:Best case senario you find the WMD and free 25 million people from a tyrant.

Worst case senario you free 25 million people from a tyrant.

A good thing is done either way in my book.

No doubt we did some good there, but a dangerous world precedent was set. Imagine if N Korea took our policy and enacted it on S Korea, imagine the carnage. All this teaches the world is hey, it pays to have nukes, US will not invade if they disagree with you on the world stage if you have nukes! I was against the war without proof of WMD, but on the same hand I am glad Saddam is gone. I guess it was a no win situation from the start. Saddam not fully cooperating, US being impatient, it's just messy.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 10, 2003, 3:31 am

Kyo, you come off as consistently bitter. I sure hope that this is just your way of blowing off steam.

I sincerely hope that you're living a pleasent life.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 10, 2003, 6:42 am

Put a lid on it Adex. She is not being bitter, she is being truthful. It is sad and pathetic that you cannot distinguish between the two.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 10, 2003, 7:48 am

my cynicism and hostility generally stems from having to share a planet with greedy and evil bastards like your president and his cronies, and the people like yourself who will blindly follow anything they say because you aren't creative or thoughtful enough to think of anything else.

people like you who rationalize a military occupation of a foreign country is somehow a good thing and having soldiers, armored cars and tanks from a hostile occupying force is somehow a great liberation quite frankly makes me want to throw up. I only hope that one day in your lifetime a country more powerful that the united states invades you under false pretenses in order to "liberate you from your oppressors" and you live with no power, no water and armed foreign soldiers and tanks controlling your every move, not letting you do your job or meet with your friends, so you can see what it feels to be liberated thusly. I really don't see that happening though, so I get furious thinking about people like you actually being able to live out their natural lives in such an overwhelming state of ignorance and stupidity.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » July 10, 2003, 8:13 am

You guys hate Bush so bad you can't even admit we helped some folks out of oppression

Out of oppression and into poverty and anarchy. You've had the Iraqi religious leaders denounce the occupation, multiple shootings of troops and even the moderate Iraqis are starting to ask "where is the improvement?". The place is a powderkeg waiting to explode.

Then of course there's the US General anticipating a 10-year occupation and calling on Bush to be honest about it.

So far us "liberal legion" who were decried as blinkered anti-americans up to and during GW2 have so far been right on every count from the tidal wave of democracy to US control of the oil to WMD via ease and length of Iraqi occupation.

Do you all really still think we're wrong and blinkered?

Tuberok · Post by **Tuberok** » July 10, 2003, 9:15 am

Something I just cannot understand, Clinton lies about getting a blowjob and is impeached. Bush lies about the reasons for war in Iraq that results in continued American lives lost each and every day and "hey thats ok, no WMD, we still took out an evil dictator". What the hell is wrong with people?

As for taking out the evil dictator justification, what about all the other evil dicators in the world that are just as bad if not worse than Saddam? We use the above logic and guess we had better be prepared to be busy for a LONG time.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » July 10, 2003, 9:25 am

kyoukan wrote:my cynicism and hostility generally stems from having to share a planet with greedy and evil bastards like your president and his cronies, and the people like yourself who will blindly follow anything they say because you aren't creative or thoughtful enough to think of anything else.

people like you who rationalize a military occupation of a foreign country is somehow a good thing and having soldiers, armored cars and tanks from a hostile occupying force is somehow a great liberation quite frankly makes me want to throw up. I only hope that one day in your lifetime a country more powerful that the united states invades you under false pretenses in order to "liberate you from your oppressors" and you live with no power, no water and armed foreign soldiers and tanks controlling your every move, not letting you do your job or meet with your friends, so you can see what it feels to be liberated thusly. I really don't see that happening though, so I get furious thinking about people like you actually being able to live out their natural lives in such an overwhelming state of ignorance and stupidity.

ZZZZzzzzzz I know the shit is flowing because your lips are moving.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » July 10, 2003, 10:12 am

We are not the cops of the world.

The day this is true I will rejoice.

Until the U.N. can decide between the quiche and the veal with fewer than four meetings of the security council, the United States is what you got.

Want it changed? Get someone else to step up to the fucking plate for a change. I am sure those who have loved ones in the US military would thank you for it.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 10, 2003, 11:03 am

Adex_Xeda wrote:Best case senario you find the WMD and free 25 million people from a tyrant.

Worst case senario you free 25 million people from a tyrant.

A good thing is done either way in my book.

hehe worst case scenario is a lot worse than that.

I think in a middle-case scenario we can have a "win/win" for most of the Iraqi people and the US. But there are some very serious question marks about the "rebuilding". It is a huge task, and certainly patience should be given (at least if you are on our side of the Atlantic), but i think there is a whole lot of frustration in Iraq over the snail's pace at which things are supposedly improving.

Its real simple, for most of those people their life today is worse than it was a year ago. Now many of them understand that tomorrow could be better with the US there, but the proof is in the pudding...and the people may feel like they are getting to the bottom of that bowl. We can say that is unreasonable, but i'd be real fucking unreasonable in 130 degree heat stairing at my impotent air conditioner without drinking water or plumbing working in my house. I'd be downright ornery!

I heard a comment from a commentator yesterday that i thought had some merit that may be worth talking about. That is this "doctrine of Pre-emption" originally developed by Wolfowitz, et al. Bush has adopted that, and I think there is a certain potential merit to it. However, and this gets to the point from the commentator, to use this Doctrine in a just manner, it relies on accurate intelligence data that has not been manipulated for political reasons.

Well guess what. That is exactly what we have here: fabricated intelligence data that has been used as political propaganda. And of course convenient that the White House tells us this week they know that nuclear propaganda was false and not in February before the war. Even though the CIA asked speech writers to remove the phrase "American intelligence" when talking about the Iraq-Africa-Uranium link. Speech writers changed the language to "British intelligence".

A guy from the State Dept nailed it yesterday. He said something like "This administration has a faith-based approach to military intelligence. That is 'we know the answers, give us the intelligence data to justify them'".

The worst part about it is that the people don't even care. I guess most people just do not think for themselves. It is pretty wierd to watch.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 10, 2003, 11:11 am

So, I guess we all should just go and get that guy who was fearing for his life for 20 years, seal him up back inside the wall he was hiding in.

Oh yea I suppose we should rehook the sulfuric acid back into the drip torchure chambers, round up all those anti-saddam folk and throw them back into the acid tanks while we're at it.

Hey why don't we put old Chemical Ali back in charge of some airplanes and chemical munitions so he can "keep those Kurds in their place" again.

While we're at it why don't we put Usay back in his playboy mansion and give him more college graduation pictures so he can continue picking out the pretty women to rape. O no wait now that he's injured he prefers to get it on with 12 year old girls my bad.

Lets just give up on the idea of giving 25 million people a chance to build a new goverment that represents them.

ALL BECAUSE we haven't found whole nuclear missiles in silos with USA spray painted on their fucking nose cones!

Yea, makes sense to me.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 10, 2003, 11:14 am

The worst part is, the saddest day in the history of the United States has yet to come. It will be on November 2nd, 2004. On that day, the majority of the voting population will betray integrity, accountability, honesty, and a host of other virtues in the name of ... what? God? Oil? Money?

My only reconciliation will be the 22nd amendment. PRAISE THE LORD FOR THAT ONE!

EDIT: Adex, this might come as a surprise to you but common sense is not your best attribute. In fact, I will go so far as to say that you lack most of the proficiencies necessary to come to conclusions using reason. If something does not make sense to you, odds are, it is logical and sound.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » July 10, 2003, 11:19 am

Xyun wrote:The worst part is, the saddest day in the history of the United States has yet to come. It will be on November 2nd, 2004. On that day, the majority of the voting population will betray integrity, accountability, honesty, and a host of other virtues in the name of ... what? God? Oil? Money?

My only reconciliation will be the 22nd amendment. PRAISE THE LORD FOR THAT ONE!

Yeah I cant wait till November 2nd, That is the day we get to vote for another Lying,cheating,welfare loving man and a republican.

WOOT!!!

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 10, 2003, 11:20 am

Hey Adex i agree with you that the region and the US are in better shape if an Iraqi republic can be installed.

But it has yet to be installed, and hopefully they'll want to do business with us when all is said and done. I think they will.

But the real issue this thread is about is:

Is it OK for the White House to knowingly and intentionally mislead the People of the United States with known fabricated intelligence reports to generate popular support for a WAR?

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 10, 2003, 11:21 am

Cartalas wrote:Yeah I cant wait till November 2nd, That is the day we get to vote for another Lying,cheating,welfare loving man and a republican.

WOOT!!!

or maybe you'll be dead by then.

/crosses fingers.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 10, 2003, 11:22 am

Cartalas wrote:
Yeah I cant wait till November 2nd, That is the day we get to vote for another Lying,cheating,welfare loving man and a republican.

WOOT!!!

your grammar betrays you again.

Yes George Bush is a liar
I dont think he's a cheater
He loves corporate welfare
and he's a Republican

good going Cart, 3/4!!

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 10, 2003, 11:27 am

If you want to talk about intelligence screwups then yea, some people need to be fired or procecuted.

If you want to say our efforts in Iraq are a bad thing then I say you have lost touch with your humanity.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » July 10, 2003, 11:29 am

Voronwë wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Yeah I cant wait till November 2nd, That is the day we get to vote for another Lying,cheating,welfare loving man and a republican.

WOOT!!!
your grammar betrays you again.

Yes George Bush is a liar
I dont think he's a cheater
He loves corporate welfare
and he's a Republican

good going Cart, 3/4!!

Bah you know what I mean but I will break it down for you.

Democrat

Liar
Cheat
Welfare supporter

Republican

Small white liar

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » July 10, 2003, 11:30 am

Xyun wrote:
Cartalas wrote:Yeah I cant wait till November 2nd, That is the day we get to vote for another Lying,cheating,welfare loving man and a republican.

WOOT!!!

or maybe you'll be dead by then.

/crosses fingers.

Just to piss off the likes of you off I am voting for Bush.

So there Now you may lick me where I pee.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » July 10, 2003, 11:54 am

You know I just don't get some people...

To me there was no need for WMD, I couldn't have cared less. In my opinion the dossier created for the UN 2 or 3 years ago sanctioned that we should have taken that sick "evil" bastard out. Yes I used the word evil. Anyone who tortures people for fun and allows his sons to pick and choose which high school girl they rape on a weekly basis is evil... don't ever try to argure this point it won't change my mind.

So we didn't find WMD, maybe they were there, maybe they weren't. The only person I feel sorry for in this is Tony Blair, he will be the one to suffer politically for doing the right thing.

I do agree with Vor that right now time is of the essence. Life is pretty freaking shitty over there and if we want to make allies out of these people then we better get things fixed or we will look like the assholes some are trying to make us out as.

Finally all you people with the whole "oil stealing thing" STFU! I'm SOOOOOOO DAMN sick of that it makes me want to puke. NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING the US has done yet points to us trying to illegially take Iraq's oil so grow up and quit spouting ultra left wing propaganda when you don't have a credible source.

Personally I probably won't vote for Bush next time as the economy sucks and I feel he went about this war in the wrong way. I feel it was justifiable for many reasons without the hullabaloo he created. The only problem is right now I have no other choice... once again the Democrats, my party affilitation, has no one viable. Oh well... we will see what happens next Nov.

Marb

PS - I've know Bill Clinton for years and worked on the 92 campaign... he is a good man and was a great President, just like I don't care if we find WMD, I don't care what he did with his dick. I just hate the Rep. bastards cornered him into having to lie about it.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » July 10, 2003, 12:03 pm

So, I guess we all should just go and get that guy who was fearing for his life for 20 years, seal him up back inside the wall he was hiding in.

Oh yea I suppose we should rehook the sulfuric acid back into the drip torchure chambers, round up all those anti-saddam folk and throw them back into the acid tanks while we're at it.

Hey why don't we put old Chemical Ali back in charge of some airplanes and chemical munitions so he can "keep those Kurds in their place" again.

While we're at it why don't we put Usay back in his playboy mansion and give him more college graduation pictures so he can continue picking out the pretty women to rape. O no wait now that he's injured he prefers to get it on with 12 year old girls my bad.

Lets just give up on the idea of giving 25 million people a chance to build a new goverment that represents them.

ALL BECAUSE we haven't found whole nuclear missiles in silos with USA spray painted on their fucking nose cones!

Yea, makes sense to me.

There you go again with the "only option other than the one I chose is the diametric opposite there is no middle ground".

And don't play the humanitarian angle either because it's plain as the fucking nose on your face that it had very little to do with the US's thirst for war.

If you want to talk about intelligence screwups then yea, some people need to be fired or procecuted.

If you want to say our efforts in Iraq are a bad thing then I say you have lost touch with your humanity

Yeah in the simple black and white world where US Republicans live I can see that but the world is a little more complex. Doing what is arguably the right thing for the wrong reasons, misleading your public, violating international law, ALL of this should be overlooked because Saddam doesn't rule Iraq any more and even though the people are still suffering it's good-ole-US-supplied-suffering, not evil arab-induced suffering.

So yeah in summary if you want to boil down a masively complex global scenario to the equivalent of "2-1 = 1" you you won, grats you /clap. In the grand scheme of things this could well rumble on for decades just like the last "pre-emptive solution" to a middle-east problem. But that's in the future and yet to be decided. The past is pretty well examinable though and even the most simplistic reduction of the situation makes you and your government look bad.

And I'd just like to address the by-rote slagging of the UN too. The entire point of the UN is to prevent war. This was it's raison d'etre when the US (back in more enlightened times) helped create it. For the UN to sanction "pre-emptive" war would be totally and utterly against it's remit as well as illegal.
Now I'm not saying that having a "world police" with "some balls" is a bad thing but it needs international concensus just like the UN has. To reach such a position would likely take a great many years but I see no reason it isn't possible to get everyone to agree on principles etc.
But without that agreement it isn't world police it's imperialism and the imposition of one culture's principles on another. The history of the world is full of struggle against such things and it's a principle upon which the US is founded. And rightly too, because whether it's fundamental islam, communism, shinto-buddhism or market fundamentalist capitalism, there isn't a country in the world that wouldn't resist such an imposition no matter what the "benefits" of the intruding culture and how much the imperialists claim " but we're the good guys!". It's all about the freedom to choose and it's not the US's job to impose it's own take on "freedom" on the rest of the world.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » July 10, 2003, 12:09 pm

Finally all you people with the whole "oil stealing thing" STFU! I'm SOOOOOOO DAMN sick of that it makes me want to puke. NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING the US has done yet points to us trying to illegially take Iraq's oil so grow up and quit spouting ultra left wing propaganda when you don't have a credible source

Go and look up Wolfowitz's recent comments about Iraq "floating on a sea of oil" and it being a factor in their decisions.

You see unlike the screen-licking reciters of whatever shit Bush is spewing us "anti-americans" actually do some digging to see what's really up and that's where our opinions come from.
Sticking your fingers in your ears and shrieking "propaganda!" just makes you look a twat.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 10, 2003, 12:24 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:If you want to talk about intelligence screwups then yea, some people need to be fired or procecuted.

If you want to say our efforts in Iraq are a bad thing then I say you have lost touch with your humanity.

i think the jury is out on whether or not the long term health of Iraq or Afghanistan will be aided by our toppling of those terrible regimes. I think those regimes definitely were in the interest of the US to get out. As long as a good government gets installed, then i think Iraq will be good to go. I think that is our intention, i'm just the kind of person who takes a more reserved approach on declaring it a "victory" until that sort of thing has actually been accomplished.

Cart, i know what you meant, try mixing "or" into your vocabulary. I personally think a man lieing about an extramarital affair under oath in an investigation about his personal real estate holdings is much less serious than a man lieing about justification for war in the Well of Congress before both Houses and the American people in a State of the Union address. Nobody dies because of the former (well except for Richard Foster

if you believe the conspiracy theorists!!)

Marb I agreek that WMDs werent necessarily needed to morally justify this war. But that isnt our choice to make. The fact is that the government chose the WMD issue as its political justification for the war. So it is a relevant issue, especially since fabricated intelligence was intentionally included. The CIA specifically asked that no attachment to them be made regarding this information. But the White House kept it in there anyway.
The White House reviewed the State of the Union address. We arent talking about some comment Bush made on the way to his helicopter. We are talking about the State of the Union Address. If you dont think hundreds of people had their eyes on that document, i don't know what to tell you. Everybody who makes decisions that influence military action in that administration most likely knew what that document said. Bush isnt going to just show up and read the batting averages of the 1927 Yankees and not know how that info got in the document.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » July 10, 2003, 12:42 pm

You have a point Vor...

Frankly though Tanc I don't care what Wolfawitz says, it's his actions I'm concerned about. I do not stick my fingers in my ears nor do I shreak Bush's propaganda... I do not look like a "twat." While I believe I supported the War for the right reasons our Gov. still has a chance to screw things up big time. Actually following Wolfawitz's statement would be one of them. If we do that you will find I'll be one of the first to agree with you that it was all bullshit and I'll join the ranks of the "anti-americans" as you put it. There is a fine line between supporting our Government for the wrong or right reasons. Whether you feel my stance is on the wrong or right side, I still belive our actions were just. BUT as I said, time will tell.

Marb

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » July 10, 2003, 1:11 pm

Frankly though Tanc I don't care what Wolfawitz says, it's his actions I'm concerned about. I do not stick my fingers in my ears nor do I shreak Bush's propaganda... I do not look like a "twat."

Um what?? You come here and accuse us of believing "groundless oil propaganda" then decide you "don't care what Wolfowitz says" when he admits there was an oil-related reason, thus making your assertion COMPLETELY ERRONEOUS??

WTF ever man. You just made my job of understanding the opposing viewpoint a hella lot easier.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » July 10, 2003, 1:12 pm

And I'd just like to address the by-rote slagging of the UN too. The entire point of the UN is to prevent war.

Sitting on your hands or making a decision as to which time zone applies to the beginning of a cease fire isn't preventing war, it's wasting time and effort.

The UN does a very credible job of compiling data from a large variety of sources and is even somewhat effective at suggesting long-term policy. It is unquestionably useless in dealing with a crisis situation.

Call it bashing if you like. The idea that a body that size, with so many different cultural and political views can come to any type of decision quickly is so disconnected from reality that it BEGS to be scorned.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » July 10, 2003, 1:18 pm

Something as complex as international politics is always going to take time - what's the rush all of a sudden? The US has been happy with using it's own delaying tactics at the UN down the years. Who decides the timetable? You?

To say some UN effort isn't moving fast enough (weapon inspectors) then to ask for "more time" (lol) when you're own weapons inspectors can't find the goods is just comedy.

The UN does a very credible job of compiling data from a large variety of sources and is even somewhat effective at suggesting long-term policy. It is unquestionably useless in dealing with a crisis situation

It moved pretty fuckin fast over Afghanistan ISTR. It moved less fast on Iraq because the nature and extent of the "crisis" were questionable. And now with hindsight it turns out not to be such a crisis after all. But the UN was cheeky enough to suggest the US cool it's heels so now 50+ years of some of the most effective communal effort in human history gets derided by puffed-chest jingoistic yanks. The rest of the world finds your hubris galling to one extent or another and that's not even taking the hypocrisy of the stance into account.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » July 10, 2003, 1:22 pm

The idea that a body that size, with so many different cultural and political views can come to any type of decision quickly is so disconnected from reality that it BEGS to be scorned.

Thankfully, the world has the US, whom is led by white male fatcats and can make a decision to go to war in record time.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » July 10, 2003, 1:32 pm

One more time since you missed it before.

The UN is quite effective in acting as a debating tool for the international community.

Their history for action sucks.

Why?

1. The decision making body is far too large to act in a timely manner.

2. The UN has no ability to enforce decisions on and of it's own. Understand this. The UN could not enforce a policy prohibiting spitting on sidewalks without a member state stepping up and agreeing to do the job.

It's a useless rubber stamp organization in times of crisis. It's a decent policy and mediation tool when it comes to long-term goals. Even when the time is available, the UN has absolutely no power to enforce it's findings other than simple peer pressure from member nations.

Deal with it, bub. Until there are some changes in it's organizational structure, the United Nations is never going to be able to function as the international peacekeeping organization so many seem to want it to be.

Ajran · Post by **Ajran** » July 10, 2003, 1:59 pm

Cartalas wrote:
Republican

Small white liar

small white liar?? that "small white lie" has cost this country billions, caused Servicemen from many countries to lose their lives, as well as many INNOCENT civilians in Iraq..

Sounds like pre-meditated murder to me.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » July 10, 2003, 3:31 pm

Because you are too busy being angry you missed the point. I understand that Wolfawitz said there were oil realted motives. Of COURSE there were oil related motives as Iraq has a lot of oil. While the UN was letting him sell if for food etc... to help his people that wasn't happening. Maybe, although I highly doubt it myself, that was the oil related motive. The point is that no mater what the motive it's the eventual actions we will be judged by. IF we get off our ass and find Saddam and return power to his people then I truly believe we will have helped the region tremendously. However if we do come up with some double handed solution for taking Iraqs oil illegally then all of our high moral motives are for shit and that is when I said I would be standing with you.

In regards to WMD though let us not forget the Russian SF Team discovered in Bagdad at the start of the war. Let us not forget the documents and taped conversations between Saddam and Putin, found by the British SF, where Putin said if Saddam didn't get rid of the WMDs he would tell the US exactly where they were. Lets us not forget that the Russian Gov. was supplying Iraq with covert information on Tony Blair... all while they didn't want to attack because of no "proof." They knew as well as everyone else their were WMD but because of monitary interests they didn't want the war. Governments lie... often... maybe part of our job is to decide who is lying the least... I truly don't know.

Hell since September 11th was have inacted so many things resembling Germany in 1928 it's scary and for almost the same reasons... to protect our citizens. The difference is, we don't have a Chancellor, we have a President who can be voted out. That is one of the things that keeps us strong. If Bush et al pulls some underhanded shit and screws up things worse I have no doubt we will have a different President in a little over a year.

Marb

Truant · Post by **Truant** » July 10, 2003, 3:38 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Best case senario you find the WMD and free 25 million people from a tyrant.
Worst case senario you free 25 million people from a tyrant.
A good thing is done either way in my book.

Did it have good effects, sure? But, you're completely disregarding consequences. Think about reaction. Then consider your worst case scenario again. Think about the example that the US set in regards to respecting the UN authority and participating in a global community.

Sionistic wrote:im still wondering why iraq wasnt letting the UN guys do thier thing, they had to be hiding something, maybe those paintings?

Who can say, a conspiracy theorist could say, they were just trying to provoke in order to increase the western hatred, strengthening their regime. A more simple explanation is, they just didn't want to. It's a question that can only be speculated really.

Adex_Xeda wrote:So, I guess we all should just go and get that guy who was fearing for his life for 20 years, seal him up back inside the wall he was hiding in.

Oh yea I suppose we should rehook the sulfuric acid back into the drip torchure chambers, round up all those anti-saddam folk and throw them back into the acid tanks while we're at it.

Hey why don't we put old Chemical Ali back in charge of some airplanes and chemical munitions so he can "keep those Kurds in their place" again.

While we're at it why don't we put Usay back in his playboy mansion and give him more college graduation pictures so he can continue picking out the pretty women to rape. O no wait now that he's injured he prefers to get it on with 12 year old girls my bad.

Lets just give up on the idea of giving 25 million people a chance to build a new goverment that represents them.

ALL BECAUSE we haven't found whole nuclear missiles in silos with USA spray painted on their fucking nose cones!

Yea, makes sense to me.

Adex, come on now. You're over reacting. Just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean that this is what we want. You've got to learn moderation. Everything is not right or left. Try looking in the middle. List the pros and cons of a situation and find a compromise. Compromise, not extreme radical reactionary adjustments to the other end of the spectrum.

Voronwe wrote:Is it OK for the White House to knowingly and intentionally mislead the People of the United States with known fabricated intelligence reports to generate popular support for a WAR?

No, for several reasons. It's dishonest. I feel that it is disrespectful. Not to mention it sets a horrid example. Call me old fashioned, but I still believe there's something solid in leading by example, as long as it doesn't come with a side order of self righteous.

As to the discussion about the effectiveness of the UN. I agree, it needs work. I think the stand up thing to do, would be to encourage restructuring of it, to increase it's efficiency and improve the time with which it takes to make a decision (and yes that goes both ways), not blow by it with complete disregard.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » July 10, 2003, 4:04 pm

Excellent post Truant!

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » July 10, 2003, 4:07 pm

pretty much we went in there, fuck up what little order was left, then put some squads and are letting the people fend for themself. We were not financially ready for this war, now we gotta spend more money to restore some sort of government back there. Right move, wrong time

Crav · Post by **Crav** » July 10, 2003, 4:49 pm

Remember the last time an organization like the U.N. feel apart? I don't think the U.N. can fulfull it's mission because the member countries are not willing to make it strong enough so that they can prevent wars from occuring. A guard dog with no teeth is pretty useless.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » July 10, 2003, 4:57 pm

That's accurate, Crav.

Unless member nations are willing to surrender some portion of their soveriegnty (and that means until death do us part, whether you like the guy at the helm or not..), the UN is not going to function well as anything other than a steering commitee of sorts..

Getting nations to agree to such a move would be quite an accomplishment.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 10, 2003, 5:43 pm

Well since it is abundantly clear that the UN was absolutely correct in not re-invading Iraq because they weren't in violation of anything, I don't see why you are so desperately trying to derail this thread into a UN blame-fest.

If the United States had listened to the UN and the weapons inspectors then maybe your country would not come off like the imperialistic, corrupt, thieving, war-mongering, international bullies that you are.

Instead you chose to illegally invade a country, destroy its infrastructure, kill its civlians, and then act like you are doing them a favor. Now you are trying to say it's all the UN's fault for not taking action when there was clearly no justification for such an action.

The US now officially deserves everything it is going to get from the middle east. If more terrorists attack you, you have no justification for outrage and your international support will be the opposite of what it was after sept. 11th. The international community will just shrug and say "What did they think was going to happen?"

Deward · Post by **Deward** » July 10, 2003, 5:53 pm

Republicans and Democrats are both crooks and sold this country out a long time ago. Bush just happens to be in the news today for his bullshit but every president has some scandal that has cost the taxpayers money and american lives.

Bush is going to be re-elected because the Democrats can't pull a candidate out of their ass to run against him. Also the Democrats aren't nearly as liberal as they used to be and it is driving a lot of their base away. Republicans are helping by giving liberal bones out here and there. It also doesn't help when only 25% of the eligible population votes. The parties don't want people to vote because then they can focus on those few that actually do.

Vote libertarian!

Deward

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 10, 2003, 5:53 pm

Fallanthas, are you arguing that Iraq was a crisis situation?

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » July 10, 2003, 5:53 pm

because they weren't in violation of anything

Yes, flagrantly disopbeying the UN for 12 years obviously indicates full compliance with council resolutions.

Why don't you just go the fuck away now before you embarass yourself further?

Acies · Post by **Acies** » July 10, 2003, 6:02 pm

kyoukan wrote:Well since it is abundantly clear that the UN was absolutely correct in not re-invading Iraq because they weren't in violation of anything, I don't see why you are so desperately trying to derail this thread into a UN blame-fest.

If the United States had listened to the UN and the weapons inspectors then maybe your country would not come off like the imperialistic, corrupt, thieving, war-mongering, international bullies that you are.

Instead you chose to illegally invade a country, destroy its infrastructure, kill its civlians, and then act like you are doing them a favor. Now you are trying to say it's all the UN's fault for not taking action when there was clearly no justification for such an action.

The US now officially deserves everything it is going to get from the middle east. If more terrorists attack you, you have no justification for outrage and your international support will be the opposite of what it was after sept. 11th. The international community will just shrug and say "What did they think was going to happen?"

What is truly disheartening about Kyoukan's commentary is the fact she is correct. World view of us is changing from what was once a strong, proud and dutious nation to a country of brutal greedy manipulators.
World view may be correct.
I will reiterate. I hope that the terrorists just bomb the Bush resisdence when he gets voted out, and not another highly populated area full of innocent people.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » July 10, 2003, 6:04 pm

*flashback to 9 months ago*

You sound like a broken record Fallanthas.

Acies, Bush isn't going to get voted out unless something big happens within the next year. (And apparently lying about WMD isn't big enough.)