Geee I wonder?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » July 8, 2003, 5:30 pm

What would happen if a white baseball manager said this, A'la Jimmy the Greek.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0707/1577825.html

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 8, 2003, 5:35 pm

wonderful, another racist tangent by our resident nazi.

why is it all the white supremacists are always the bottom the barrel retards without a single redeeming quality to their credit? I guess it has to do with being too stupid to realize how stupid they are.

Post by **Sylvus** » July 8, 2003, 5:37 pm

I don't see why that is even a topic of conversation, it sounds reasonable to me. I'm not the foremost authority on evolution and genetics, but it was always my understanding that black people had black skin because it is a favorable trait to have in the sunnier climates that they were from. Is that not true?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » July 8, 2003, 5:42 pm

kyoukan wrote:wonderful, another racist tangent by our resident nazi.

why is it all the white supremacists are always the bottom the barrel retards without a single redeeming quality to their credit? I guess it has to do with being too stupid to realize how stupid they are.

Spoken like a true racist Kyoukan. My point is if this was said by a white manager he would be crucified. But your disdain for white people blinds you. I find his comments disturbing.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 8, 2003, 5:49 pm

Darker skinned people favor better in hot and sunny conditions yes. It's a scientific fact that darker skin pigmentation protects you from UV and reflects heat better than white. People of African and Carribean descent are also just more resistant to the heat through evolution. Despite living out in the sun almost constantly, Africans and people from the Archipelago are also like 95% less likely to develop skin cancer as a result of exposure to UV rays. In Australia, the aboriginese are almost totally resistant to skin cancer where it is the main type of cancer reported in the transplanted Europeans that live there.

People are just so politically correct that you aren't even allowed to mention any advantages a particular race of people might have. I'm not entirely sure why anyone would think a white manager was being racist and derogatory if he said black people and latinos fare better in the sun.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 8, 2003, 5:54 pm

yes very controversial...dark skinned people handle solar radiation better than light skinned people.

i dont care if you think i'm racist or not, black people are better at a bunch of sports than just about any other ethnic group i can think of.

i think at least part of that is genetic. One of the news magazines did some analysis awhile back (CBS or NBC...) and some physician did contend that African Americans had more fast twitch muscle fibers than European Americans. As a result they could run faster, jump higher, etc.

Anyway, its true whether anybody wants to acknowledge it or not, you are never going to see a white dude dunk like Vince Carter. That's just all there is to that

i dont see how discussing verifiable genetic differences in and of themselves is a racist thing to do.

If you couch that discussion within a social judgement "blacks have more fast twitch muscle fibers therefore should be encouraged to take labor jobs (ie lower income than white collar)" then that is veiled racism.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 8, 2003, 5:54 pm

how is my disdain for gutter trash like yourself "spoken like a true racist"?

why is saying that black people and latinos fare better in the heat a racist comment when it is a scientific fact?

why would a white person be crucified as a racist for saying that black people and latinos fare better in the heat than white people?

Crav · Post by **Crav** » July 8, 2003, 6:05 pm

I hate to agree with Cartalas, but I think many reporters would have slanted it towards a much more racist statment if a white manager had said it. It sells more papers and a lot of people in the public would have agreed with them. The statement itself is not racist, but reporters would have reported it as if it was. I don't think any of the posters can honestly say that the reporters would not have done their best to make it more conterversial in order to sell more papers and have something to put on tv.

I also agree with Sylvus, it's not really worth time talking about.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » July 8, 2003, 6:23 pm

kyoukan wrote:how is my disdain for gutter trash like yourself "spoken like a true racist"?

why is saying that black people and latinos fare better in the heat a racist comment when it is a scientific fact?

why would a white person be crucified as a racist for saying that black people and latinos fare better in the heat than white people?

Hurry Hurry take off the blinders a Mack truck is about to hit you!!! Kyoukan you are hands down no if's ands or buts the most ignorant person I have ever seen. You might have more book smarts then most people but your commen sense is only challanged by Anna Nicole Smith.

Everytime you post I think of the old Justice League cartoons "Wonder Twin powers activate", Form of a Brain.

You know damn well that if a white manager said this he would be fried.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 8, 2003, 6:46 pm

on what grounds would he be fried or fired or whatever the hell your fat fingers and tiny brain is trying to say?

how is quoting scientific fact about a particular race of people racist?

noel · Post by **noel** » July 8, 2003, 6:46 pm

Stop arguing and shut the fuck up for a second.

Jesus.

Cart if you're making the point that if a white manager had said that he would have been crucified, I agree.

While I really don't think it's a racist statement... more a statement based on scientific fact, I'm not sure it was something that needed to be said.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » July 8, 2003, 7:28 pm

Aranuil wrote:Stop arguing and shut the fuck up for a second.

Jesus.

Cart if you're making the point that if a white manager had said that he would have been crucified, I agree.

While I really don't think it's a racist statement... more a statement based on scientific fact, I'm not sure it was something that needed to be said.

Thank you

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » July 8, 2003, 11:44 pm

Hmm, I really think that this was a pretty stupid statement primarily because of the context it was in.

What I mean is that we're talking about professional baseball players. To make the pros, you, most likely, have been playing all of your life. Being that the baseball season is during the summer, if a player couldn't take the heat, they wouldn't make the pros. ANY player that has made it through the filtration process of actually getting to the pros has to have, either, a natural toleration of the heat, or, grown accustomed to playing in hot weather over the years.

I'm not talking about the genetic difference between the races. I'm talking about saying that players of a specific race, who have already proven themselves to be able to play on a professional level w/in the conditions associated with the sport, are somehow all of the sudden not up to task solely because of their race.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 9, 2003, 9:01 am

There is definitely a double standard when it comes to making any type of racial comment at all. If you are white, you will receive backlash like you were responsible for shooting Malcom X and MLK. If you are black and say the exact same thing, it is shrugged off or taken as gospel.

Jassun · Post by **Jassun** » July 9, 2003, 11:13 am

Kilmoll wrote:There is definitely a double standard when it comes to making any type of racial comment at all. If you are white, you will receive backlash like you were responsible for shooting Malcom X and MLK. If you are black and say the exact same thing, it is shrugged off or taken as gospel.

I would agree.

In the initial post in this thread, Cartalas mentioned the "Jimmy the Greek"/CBS firing incident back in 1998. Anyone remember what he said?

Jimmy the Greek wrote:The black is the better athlete. And he practices to be the better athlete, and he's bred to be the better athlete because this goes way back to the slave period. The slave owner would breed this big black with this big black woman so he could have a big black kid. That's where it all started.

Less than 24 hours later he was fired. It didn't help that he made this comment on MLK's birthday.

How much different is the following quote?

On the plantations, a strong black man was mated with a strong black woman. (Blacks) were simply bred for physical qualities.

Not too different, huh? It was spoken by black Olympic Gold Medalist Lee Evans. Evans was quoted in a 1971 Sports Illustrated article on the purported physiological differences between blacks and whites. There was an article in Time in 1998 comparing the two similar statements and the dissimilar public reaction.

And who could forget in 1998 when Reggie White of the Green Bay Packers made the following statemets in an address to the Wisconsin State Legislature:

Reggie White wrote:Why did God create us differently? Why did God make me black and you white? Why did God make the next guy Korean and the next guy Asian and the other guy Hispanic? Why did God create the Indians?

Well, it's interesting to me to know why now. When you look at the black race, black people are very gifted in what we call worship and celebration. A lot of us like to dance, and if you go to black churches, you see people jumping up and down, because they really get into it.

White people were blessed with the gift of structure and organization. You guys do a good job of building businesses and things of that nature and you know how to tap into money pretty much better than a lot of people do around the world.

Hispanics are gifted in family structure. You can see a Hispanic person and they can put 20 or 30 people in one home. They were gifted in the family structure.

When you look at the Asians, the Asian is very gifted in creation, creativity and inventions. If you go to Japan or any Asian country, they can turn a television into a watch. They're very creative. And you look at the Indians, they have been very gifted in the spirituality.

When you put all of that together, guess what it makes. It forms a complete image of God. God made us different because he was trying to create himself. He was trying to form himself, and then we got kind of knuckleheaded and kind of pushed everything aside.

Reggie did get a lot of criticism. In the same address he also made comments about homosexuality being immoral and two of the senators were gay. However, what would have happened if Brett Farve had said that?

And now to the present.

Dusty Baker wrote:You don't find too many brothers from New Hampshire and Maine and the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Right? We were brought over here for the heat, right? Isn't that history? Weren't we brought over here because we can take the heat?

[Blacks'] skin color is more conducive to heat than it is for lighter skin people, right? You don't see brothers running around burnt. Yeah, that's fact. I'm not making this stuff up. Right? You don't see some brothers walking around with white stuff [sun block] on their ears and noses.

Imagine Tony La Russa or Joe Torre saying that.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 9, 2003, 11:28 am

look it is simply a reality of our society that the wounds of institutionalized racism still run very deep. And i'm sorry if you want to be "over it", but the damage that was done will still take quite a long time to repair.

As a result there are things that black people can say socially that white people cannot without expecting a dramatically different interpretation. And vice versa. There are things women can joke with about amongst themselves, but if you say to your wife/girlfriend (depending on her temperment) you are gonna not get laid for a couple days/weeks.

You neglected a differnce between the thing that Jimmy the Greek, that other athelete, and Dusty Baker all have in their comments. Time.

1971, 1982 (?), and 2003.

Your case against Baker may in fact be the flaw in your argument. Because perhaps we are simply witnessing the progression of openness in our society. Where a valid statement 20 years ago brought social criticism, whereas today perhaps it should not.

20 years is a long time. Additionally i do think the race of the person speaking is relevant, as well as the context of the statement.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » July 9, 2003, 12:22 pm

I don't see anything wrong with the statement. I don't care if it was a white guy that said it, it's just science.

Homercles · Post by **Homercles** » July 9, 2003, 12:38 pm

Your case against Baker may in fact be the flaw in your argument. Because perhaps we are simply witnessing the progression of openness in our society. Where a valid statement 20 years ago brought social criticism, whereas today perhaps it should not.

Thats crap and you know it. Our society hasnt progressed to a more open accepting and forgiving one. It may be the opposite. Our society has progressed to one where the spoken word (regardless of intent behind the words) can be more damning than a lifetime of behavior and actions.

A few years back a golf analyst made a comment that women with larger breasts were less capable golfers than those with smaller breasts. This statement based on expert golf swing analysts is completely true. Yet the analyst was fired immediately.
This statement had nothing to do with race or slavery, so you cant use the excuse that wounds run too deep. It was a white male making an analysis (correct as it may be) that offended a group of people. Therefore he was fired. If a woman would have made the same analysis there wouldve been no reprecussions from her comment.

Thats just how things are.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » July 9, 2003, 1:10 pm

I used to get into arguments like this with a old buddy of mine all the time. He thought that my assertions that there are quantifiable physical differences between the races (I'm talking caucasoid, mongoloid, and negroid, "hispanic" isn't really a race in that sense, just a hybrid of the others) were racist. I wasn't asserting that any one was superior, just that they were all different.

When I showed him some course material that explained how Asians and AmerIndians lacked an enzyme that aids in the processing of alcohol, he basically called me a Nazi. /shrug

I remember reading a study a friend in the sports medicine program showed me that indicated blacks potentially (study was in progress, I never saw the finished version) had a greater curvature of the femur and slightly different tendon and ligament attachments, which gave them greater leverage for running and stuff.

I never thought of the affects that selective breeding back in the slave days may have had on the American black population. 26 generations is a long fucking time.

Jassun · Post by **Jassun** » July 9, 2003, 1:36 pm

Voronwe wrote:look it is simply a reality of our society that the wounds of institutionalized racism still run very deep. And i'm sorry if you want to be "over it", but the damage that was done will still take quite a long time to repair.

As a result there are things that black people can say socially that white people cannot without expecting a dramatically different interpretation. And vice versa. There are things women can joke with about amongst themselves, but if you say to your wife/girlfriend (depending on her temperment) you are gonna not get laid for a couple days/weeks.

You neglected a differnce between the thing that Jimmy the Greek, that other athelete, and Dusty Baker all have in their comments. Time.

1971, 1982 (?), and 2003.

Your case against Baker may in fact be the flaw in your argument. Because perhaps we are simply witnessing the progression of openness in our society. Where a valid statement 20 years ago brought social criticism, whereas today perhaps it should not.

20 years is a long time. Additionally i do think the race of the person speaking is relevant, as well as the context of the statement.

Couldn't agree with you more (about the part in bold.)

You are also correct about taking time to repair the damage. However, you kinda contradict yourself when, shortly after that, you point out time as the difference between my examples. The social response was the same in 70's, the 80's and today. Time, unfortunately, hasn't changed this one aspect of our society.

In my "case" I only pointed out one double standard that exist in our society today (the one that was on topic for this thread, of course.) And it happened to be one of the few that does not favor white males. There are many other double standards, stereotypes, and generalities that do just the opposite.

However, the "damage" will never be repaired as long as these any of these double standards do exsist for any race/gender.

Krimson wrote:I don't see anything wrong with the statement. I don't care if it was a white guy that said it, it's just science.

If most people felt this way, Baker's statement would never have even made a local newspaper. Instead it makes the headlines on ESPN.

Personally, considering today's PC society (which is a TOTALLY different topic http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4874 ), I beleive Baker's statement could have been a little more socially acceptable.

EDIT: spelling > me

Crav · Post by **Crav** » July 9, 2003, 1:54 pm

I used to get into arguments like this with a old buddy of mine all the time. He thought that my assertions that there are quantifiable physical differences between the races (I'm talking caucasoid, mongoloid, and negroid, "hispanic" isn't really a race in that sense, just a hybrid of the others) were racist. I wasn't asserting that any one was superior, just that they were all different.

The problem really is that historically people have used reports on races to justify astrocities committed against those races. I remember seeing a study done for education that basically said that black people were not genetically predesposed to learn so it was not justifiable to spend an equal amount of money educating them. I'm pretty sure the report was from the mid 30s or 40s.

Racism was made into such a big thing early on when the country was being founded and continues to play a major part in our country today. It will take a long time before we are able to see each other as just people and not think of race.

"hispanic" isn't really a race in that sense, just a hybrid of the others

Sweet I'm a half elf in game and real life!

Deward · Post by **Deward** » July 9, 2003, 5:29 pm

Everyone knows it isn't racism unless Jesse Jackson or Al sharpton show up.

(the above statement was sarcasm for you mentally challenged readers)

Deward

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » July 9, 2003, 6:23 pm

Don't get me started on the self proclaimed voices of the Black community...Although I think Sharpton is on the up and up (wrong, but a stand up guy and very very intelligent), Jesse is an ambulance chaser.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 9, 2003, 8:49 pm

what the hell? al sharpton makes jesse jackson look like booker t. washington.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » July 10, 2003, 2:08 am

Have you actually listened to these two debate? Jesse is like a Black Rush Limbaugh, he has a one track debate mind and can only focus on one thing at a time, and not good at confrontation. Besides that, he's a freaking commerce sucking blackmaler and ambulance chaser. Al will take the heat, he will go into the fire, on the factor or any other republican show, and voice his comments and defend them intelligently. He will show up on the scene for minorities that have been wronged, even when there is no money to be gained, Jesse could learn something there. He does not think very highly of Jesse either, so that's another plus in his column. I disagree with everything Sharpton says, even when he DOES show up to defend minorities that he thinks have been wronged, but that does not mean I can't respect him. Man I really dislike Jesse Jackson. Did I mention he was a blackmailing parasite?

All I am saying is I don't support or recognize either of these men as MY spokesperson, I just happen to respect one of em.