Homosexuals unfairly judged by Christians Here...

[noel]

You asked for it. Here's a thread where we can rehash homosexuality from the overzealous Christian opinion. My comments are forthcoming.

As a sometime Christian, sometime agnostic, with sometime interests in Buddhism (which I consider more of a philosophy than a religion, but that's another thread), I see homosexuality as largely genetic, and legally inconsequential. I view them no different than I do any other class of people, and I try not to discriminate against them in ways that I wouldn't discriminate against a heterosexual individual. I very frankly don't see an issue with it, as it hurts nothing other than the delicate sensibilities of our country's moral majority.

Ok, I've said what I want to say. Devout Christians, feel free to shove your collective feet in your mouths. Remember while you're doing it to judge not lest ye be judged.

[Acies]

I disagree on the genetic theory, but agree with the rest.
I believe it is personal preferance that drives hetro and homosexual activity, and what guy does in his own house with his own body is his own fucking buisness.
Not the courts, nor the states, nor the nations.

[Fesuni Chopsui]

I disagree on the genetic theory, but agree with the rest.
I believe it is personal preferance that drives hetro and homosexual activity, and what guy does in his own house with his own body is his own fucking buisness.
Not the courts, nor the states, nor the nations.

Couldn't agree more....this thread ought to be good

[noel]

I disagree on the genetic theory, but agree with the rest.
I believe it is personal preferance that drives hetro and homosexual activity, and what guy does in his own house with his own body is his own fucking buisness.
Not the courts, nor the states, nor the nations.

Perhaps it was a mistake to discuss the origins of homosexuality in this thread after doing some research, it would appear that early studies ('91-93) which claimed homosexuality was genetic were in some manner debunked (I only did a cursory search). From my most basic knowledge of genetics, I still believe it's possible even probable that there's a genetic basis for homosexuality, but it would appear that it has not yet been proven.

Perhaps then, it is only personal preference i.e. some men prefer women with large breasts, some men prefer women with a certain hair color, some men and women prefer members of their same sex. At any rate, it's likely beyond the scope of this discussion.

[Acies]

Either way, doesn't really matter, be it genetic or preferance. It is still each persons own buisness, imo.

Adex, if you feel differantly I would like to hear your opinion. I promise I will be open about it, at least open enough to not flame you or your beliefs.

[Adex_Xeda]

I tend to belive that is a combination of life factors and genetics.

The same applies to heterosexuality.

We're raised a certain way, sometimes good and bad things happen in our lives that influence our choices about whom feel comfortable being close with.

I'm not a doctor but I see it as plausable that some people are hardwired at birth with gay tendencies.

[Fesuni Chopsui]

I tend to belive that is a combination of life factors and genetics.

The same applies to heterosexuality.

We're raised a certain way, sometimes good and bad things happen in our lives that influence our choices about whom feel comfortable being close with.

I'm not a doctor but I see it as plausable that some people are hardwired at birth with gay tendencies.

So you feel that homosexuals are swayed to be homosexuals in part due to their surroundings and society?

[Acies]

Well, from a genetic perspective I can only think of one biologic aspect that might make "men" so inclined to be gay. However, note that it is about 80-90% the same for all men. That being a pleasure center right on the other side of the colon wall, which makes penitration from a male perspective pleasurable.
Very, so I have been told.
Basically, 80-90% of men then, are either gay or in the closet about it

[Adex_Xeda]

Yes Fesuni,

I belive much of our sense of identity derives from our surroundings.

Not 100% but lets say 70%

[Adex_Xeda]

Shall we jump to the part that we disagree or do you wish to continue with identity.

[Fesuni Chopsui]

The purpose of the thread is to talk about the fundamental disagreements between people like you and people like me Adex, I agree we shouldn't muddle it with talk about homosexual identity heh

[Drasta]

ok .... being gay isn't really a choice ... and i hate the judgemental christians

"god says your the devil !!!!!!! and gods never wrong ! SPAWN OF SATAN!"

people that are like zealously(is that a word?) god lovers need to die ... you let your blind faith keep you from living a normal life and constantly telling people how god wants them to live their life when its their life to live not yours ... don't be dumpin your trash in my yard

if being gay was a product of your life ... i would be straight and have low tolerance of people that are different then me

[Fesuni Chopsui]

"Zealous god lovers" would be the correct statement, but the word Zealously does exist

[Acies]

Okay, god never said homosexuality was bad.
If he did, prove it. However, the bible is fiction and is not proof, due mainly to the fact it has undergone so many edits.
Again, if god is everything that most Christians believe he is, then he would not care about homosexuality as long as there is love.

Anyway, I would really like to hear from Adex, openly and without fear, state why he believes homosexuality to be a sin? Against it? So on.

[Adex_Xeda]

Well, you must understand that I belive God has chosen the bible as his instrument for relaying what he wants us to know.

To ask me to seperate the bible from my beliefs is not something I can do.

I grant that you belive the bible is a work of fiction.

Ok I'll keep that in mind.

Here's my setup. The instructions in the bible have allowed me to establish a relationship with God. Through prayer, he and I talk. Between my prayer, him tweaking life into situations where I'm to learn things, and by reading the bible I developed a moral code.


This moral code says that God designed sex to be superglue that seal a husband and wife together as a pair.

I belive use of sex in any other way is wrong.

[Kelgar]

I disagree on the genetic theory, but agree with the rest.

So you're saying that people are actually fucked in the head enough to simply choose to be discriminated against, ostracized, and ridiculed? I guess all we need to do to set Sparky straight is to keep telling him, "Don't be gay!"

The studies are inconclusive, but definately are on to something.

[Drasta]

so adex ... you've never had sex since you don't have a wife right?

[Adex_Xeda]

Are you guys having any trouble getting to this board?

I've been unable to reach this board for the most of last night and all of this morning.



Drasta,

I've been in some tempting situations but I've always backed off. I figure if I manage to resist sex before marriage, I'll have enough strenght to resist cheating after marriage.

[Cartalas]

My question is " why do people care"? Im not Gay I like women but hell I dont care if someone else was gay. What is the big deal? I understand everone has there religious beliefs on this but its just that your religious belief.

To each his own, well exept for a few, beastiality(Kyoukan) is still a no no.

[Marbus]

Adex, I commend you for sticking to your beliefs like that... it's not something most people do, no matter what they believe.

In regards to the whole "homosexual" and Bible thing I think it's known that I consider myself a Christian or how I like to put it, a follower of Christ.

From my psychological and biological research I have 200% confidence in saying that nothing is totally "genetic" nor is it totally "nurture." Genetics set our potential our balance. However as human beings we have the ability to either act on those impulses or go above them. Example, my metabolism sucks ass... I've always been a big guy so that is where Genetics put me... however I decided for a while I didn't want to be so I spent 6 hours a day at the gym and lost over 200 lbs and kept it off for years. Of course once I couldn't do that... it came back. I don't gain anymore but I don't loose etiher... that is where my body balances at.

Now the same holds true, IMHO for the Hetro/Homo aspect as well. Everything is a continum and some people are born genetically "flaming" while others are born just curious and others have no desire at all. Whether you are a big macho guy or a 110 lb weakling has nothing to do with it. The ability for one person to put aside their curiousity because they have been raised "nurtured" to believe it's "wrong" is probably very easy. The same person born flaming is probably going to wind up spending a lot of time at the shrink's office because he just can't put those feelings and desires out of his mind.

So yes I believe that some people are born gay. I also believe that the Bible is the inspired work of God. I also believe than man is fallable and sometimes can't translate worth a crap.

I always try to picture the Old Testament is rules to live by which will keep you alive when you have no sanatation. Don't eat pork... well at the time pigs had a lot of diseases. Don't fornicate i.e. don't spread syphilis etc... The stuff in Leviticus about Homosexuals is, and I didn't see this in Boogs post, mistranslated. At the time the Greeks (especially spartans) were really big on men molesting and "learning" younger boys. This is what the stuff in Leviticus is referring too, not 2 consenting adults.

The stuff in the New Testament is also geared more towards homosexuality and fornication in realation to idol worship and Roman secular society rather than in private.

The truth to me is we don't know 100% what the original meaning is on some of those passages. We do know that some of the passages have been "ok'ed" over time because the majority of the Christian population decided... well it's really ok to eat bacon now. The Homosexuals are facing a similar situation.

A gay couple joined our Church recently, they aren't the only ones but they are the only ones who have really been open about it. My sister, who was there for my sons Christining said "damn... how happy can you be if you don't even believe in your own life style." I thought a lot about that, obviously that is why she is still having trouble accepting herself. Her religious beliefs and genetic desires are incongruent.

I have a lot of gay friends who are some of the best people I know. Christ told us to love your neighbors as yourselves and take care of one other. Actually taking care of one antoher is the first story in the Bible (Cain, where is your brother? "Am I my brother's keeper?) That to me is the primary message and what is pivitol in Christianity (I know most others probably don't feel that way). From that standpoint I don't care what my friend or neighbor is doing in bed with whom if they are following those rules and believe in the Resurrection and forgiveness of Sins.

Christ came at a time when 99% of the Jewish population was looking for a Crusader to kick the crap out of the Romans. He preached a message of love and forgiveness. It's funny that in the past 2000 years we have twisted that message so much that sometimes it's now used to support hate groups. Remember that old commercial with the Indian on the horse looking out at the field where people had come in an just trashed the national forest? it would zoom in and you would see a tear running down his cheek... that is often how I picture Christ when he considers his Church today.

So there... I'm off my soap box. Heh Voronwe use to always grief me about my 2 page posts... sorry if anyone fell asleep while reading.

Cheers!
Marb

[Voronwë]

hehe marb, i was thinking that very thought you concluded with

[Fairweather Pure]

I learned long ago that if someone's primary argument is "my religion says so", then there is nothing to discuss. This conversation is moot since religion is the crux of the disagreement and religion is completely subjective and interpretive. The greater point of this thread will be lost in the myriad of smaller points and dissagreements that will arise when discussing popular Christian theology.

So I say, fuck it. I'm off to DL some Heather videos off the 'Net. You Christians don't know what you're missing...

[Drasta]

i know ... love thy neighboor ....if these people are so christian why do they want to legalize discriminaton? basically homosexuals are dealing with what blacks had to deal with in the 1930's and stuff

[Chidoro]

From that standpoint I don't care what my friend or neighbor is doing in bed with whom if they are following those rules and believe in the Resurrection and forgiveness of Sins.

What if they don't? What if they believe in another religion entirely?

[Fallanthas]

Having raised three daughters as genetically identical as is possible for distinct human beings to be and raised under as close to identical surroundings as is possible without a lab, I am going to say that neither I nor science has a clue as to what behavioral factors are genetic and which are learned.

As for homosexuality, it makes me uncomfortable to be the target of such advances, but I have no issue at all with those who, erm, practice discreetly.

But then, I am an atheist rather than a bible-thumper, so call this farming if you like.

[Wulfran]

This moral code says that God designed sex to be superglue that seal a husband and wife together as a pair.

I belive use of sex in any other way is wrong.

So to put this another way, for clarification, Adex (coreect me if I am wrong here) believes strongly in the commandmant "thou shalt not commit adultery". This should preclude not just homosexuality, but any form of masturbation, pre-marital or extra-marital sex, correct?

If that is the case I can understand and respect that. It was the way my parents brought me up, but its not a morality that I abide by or the majority of the population abides by. Seriously: when was the last time you were at a wedding of 2 virgins? I don't think I have ever been...

I guess the argument is then why should the morality of that commandmant be the basis for any laws, when laws are supposed to represent the baseline beliefs of a society?

[noel]

Marb,

That was a great post, and I agree with all of it save the caveat that Chidoro pointed out.

Wulfran,

I think a lot of it has to do with the way society has changed. It used to be people were getting married between 18 and 25, not in their late 20s early 30s. I think a lot of there's a lot of mistrust in the sanctity of marriage after many people in my generation watched their parents marriages crumble, and ultimately end in divorce. I think this plays a large factor in the modern day relationship being quite different than it was even 30 years ago (being very, very general here... keep in mind I live in California which isn't exactly in the Bible belt). I think times have changed as they always do. I respect Adex's desire to do things the way he believes they should be done though it's not for me.

The thing I don't like/respect is when some overzealous Christian (not talking about Adex at all here) tries to tell me I'm a bad person because I'm doing things my way. I am a good person, and there's not a self-righteous person from any religion that can convince me otherwise. People who worship with blind-faith, word-for-word passion frighten me. Everything is questionable, and everything should be questioned.

Kind of rambling now, so I'll shut up.

[Truant]

Generally off topic, but it definately relates.

The day I ever do or believe something because someone told me, is the day I ask to be locked up.

I don't care if it's your parents, your teacher, or your bible...I make sure everything I am told/taught checks out with reason before I bank on it.

I believe we are to do what we wish, as long as those actions don't impede upon the happiness or general well being of others. It's the golden rule, rephrased more or less.

[Adex_Xeda]

I need to drive to Dallas. I'll try to log in when possible.


I have a good grasp about why certain people feel the need to condemn homosexual acts.

I also think I know why christains seem so pushy at times.

I'll do my best to answer those questions if you want me to.

I'll check this thread tonight once I finish traveling and work on answering any questions you ask.

[Marbus]

Strange, my last post isn't showing up...

Sorry for the confusion at the end there of the other one my train of though must have wained. What I meant was that for someone to be a Christian I didn't think it mattered what they did in the privacy of their own home as long as they believe the major tenants of the Religion.

I didn't mean that only Christians are my friends. Far from that, I have a lot of friends who are wiccan and many more who are agnostic. While I tried to lead a life that I think they would see and think it might be something they would want as well. Heh, talking with others about religion, of our generation, it's often very difficult show them the good things about Christanity because so many have had negative experiences either growning up or with close friends. I don't believe in shoving religion, mine or anyone elses, down someones throat. That only turns people off. But if they are curious I will be happy to share my views.

We have way too many people in this country already ready to judge people at the drop of the hat for one reason or another. I believe that is one of THE most important aspects of Christanity... it's just one most mainstream people seem to miss. That whole... "cast the first stone..." Anyway, hope this helps, sorry for the confusion earlier.

Cheers!
Marb

[Krimson Klaw]

You asked for it. Here's a thread where we can rehash homosexuality from the overzealous Christian opinion. My comments are forthcoming.

As a sometime Christian, sometime agnostic, with sometime interests in Buddhism (which I consider more of a philosophy than a religion, but that's another thread), I see homosexuality as largely genetic, and legally inconsequential. I view them no different than I do any other class of people, and I try not to discriminate against them in ways that I wouldn't discriminate against a heterosexual individual. I very frankly don't see an issue with it, as it hurts nothing other than the delicate sensibilities of our country's moral majority.

Ok, I've said what I want to say. Devout Christians, feel free to shove your collective feet in your mouths. Remember while you're doing it to judge not lest ye be judged.

I agree with most of your views here. I see a homosexual no different than any other person that sins (all of us). I would no sooner isolate myself from them than I would say a person that lies, or cheated on a spouse. It's a sin, and sin is something we all do. It's part of life. To seperate yourself from homosexuals because of their lifestyle choice makes as much sense as another christian not having anything to do with me because I say a curse word/lie/blaspheme once a week. Granted, I definantly view the lifestyle as a sin and being wrong, but I challenge you to name one human being that Jesus washed his hands of, gave up on, or did not love due to their sins.

I am late getting to this thread due to not being able to access the site all day, but my wife and I were virgins until marriage. I actually got laughed at once by a girl that asked why I was still a virgin when I explained my views on marriage and God. She had a very good laugh at my expense, but spent the next solid year trying to get me to break my vow to wait for marriage, came pretty close too.

[Raistin]

Teh Devil!

[Krimson Klaw]

Lucifer was never a human being. BTW, sup Raist.

[Marbus]

So Krimson you are saying that you do believe Homosexuality is a sin just like Adultry, False Witness etc...? I know that is something I wrestle with as different, especially the newer, revisions point to possible other meanings. Of course the hard-lined fundamentalist will say that the original translations (into English - like the KJV), no matter how archiac the technique, are the only true versions. Just wondering...

BTW, waiting is very honorable, I did for quite a long time but evntually gave in then went wild for a while. Possibly because of my own experience but also because of my studies in Sociology and Psychology I don't tend to worry about that as much as adultry. I don't remember making a vow or committment to/in front of God regarding my virginity. However I did make one to be faithful to my wife. But to the point, your ability to make the sacrafice you did shows a great deal about you as a person, at least to me and I commend you.

Cheers!
Marb

PS- Lucifer is the Angel of Light... or was at one time. But speaking of being on Earth. Anyone got a good understanding of the stuff in Genesis about the "Son's of God and daughters of men"? They were some of the wicked beings destroyed in the flood... always been curious about that passage.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I don't think it is my right to judge whether it is a sin or not. That is for God to decide. I do make a conscious effort to not judge someone as a person based on their sexual preference, color, etc. Sometimes you catch yourself doing it unconsciously and you have to remind yourself though.

I do think that homosexuals have the right to not be persecuted and should be free to do as they please. The only line I really draw is at the gay marriage and I have stated my arguments about marriage being religiously based being the reason against it etc etc.

Honestly, I think homosexuality is not necessarily a choice in most cases, although I do believe that some engage in it because of an identity crisis or from rebellion against the society and its norms. I think someday they will isolate exactly what causes it, and believe it is a defect in a gene or something. I could expound on that theory and the reasons why I think that, but I am too damn tired.

[noel]

I don't know what the Christian God the rest of you believe in would officially say on whether or not it's a sin, but the God I believe in doesn't think so.

[Akaran_D]

The bible thumping christian zealots scare me, and not just because I am a christian myself (not a great one, unfortunately, I have many flaws..) but because nowhere has God ever said "Go judge these people for me", which is in effect what they're doing. It upsets me to consider that these people think that they are doing what they are supposed to do so, and instead of trying to convert, they're trying to shove it down others' throats, which history has shown a thousand times over never ever ever works.

I have no problem with homosexuality. I'm not gay but I have friends that are, or who are bisexual. /shrugs It's not my job to say what is and what isn't right, just to live with what I feel actively is.

[Kguku]

Here's some clarification on Lucifer

Lucifer was not an angel, nor is he the devil.

Lucifer was in reference as a title of a Babylonian King

Links for some information are as follows:

http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml

http://members.cox.net/galatians/Lucifer.htm

Or just do a google search for Lucifer.

[Boogahz]

I do think that homosexuals have the right to not be persecuted and should be free to do as they please. The only line I really draw is at the gay marriage and I have stated my arguments about marriage being religiously based being the reason against it etc etc.

Honestly, I think homosexuality is not necessarily a choice in most cases, although I do believe that some engage in it because of an identity crisis or from rebellion against the society and its norms. I think someday they will isolate exactly what causes it, and believe it is a defect in a gene or something. I could expound on that theory and the reasons why I think that, but I am too damn tired.

Been out of town for the weekend so I will jump in here:

Now, granted I am just starting to catch up right now. The "rights of marriage"...where the hell do they come from? Having attended weddings in several different denominations of Christian churches, it's obvious that there is no standard set of "rules and regulations" within the church which makes the "homosexual" wedding wrong. I personally attended my mother's own Holy Union and the ceremony itself seemed to pretty much match the weddings I had been to in the past except for the Catholic weddings I went to.

The homosexuality being a choice bit...well, in a way I can see that, but at the same time I disagree with it. I know of many people which have "experimented," but I myself would not call them bi or gay. Some people just feel an urge to see what it is like. Others are really not sure of themselves at the time, which can be from a number of factors. The most recent person I talked to that was going through this was a female that had basically turned to partying, and had run most of her freinds off through her excessive drinking. When she would go to online chat rooms (1st mistake), she would get hit on by some of the women there who want to "turn" the straight girls their way. The same way many straight men/women would try to turn a gay/lesbian "their" way. She had considered it, but finally decided that it was her alcoholism that was causing her to turn her freinds away. She originally thought she was hitting on them when she would black out after drinking. She is now taking care of that condition before she even thinks about making a decision regarding the people she met in online chat.


No time to pull other quotes but there were also many referring basically as to whether homosexuality was due to Nature/Nurture. Well, being the adult son of both a gay father and lesbian mother, I cannot attest to either really. I think that it is something that just makes that person different. There are four boys and 1 girl involved in my family from my father's first and second marriages (second fell apart because OF his homosexuality). Of the five of us, none are gay. Well, I guess I cannot guarantee that as 1 is still in the Middle East in the Army. My three half-brothers really weren't raised around my father as the oldest was around 9 when the divorce took place. My sister and I were raised around it from the time that I was 5 or so (my sis is about 2.5 years younger). I would say that I am more open minded than most people, but I also know what I want and that's something no man can give me.

So, Nature/Nuture/Unknown. That's the way I look at it. People think it's a learned behavior. If so, why are my siblings and myself straight? If it's genetic, you would think that at least one of us would be homosexual. I never read the original studies mainly because the majority of the studies done are/were so fucking controlled that there would be no possible way to really see what did or didn't cause it.

Personally I think it can be a combination of the three. BUT...Unknown would be what I think is the strongest reasons. Unknown can be anything. The way a person can just make a connection with one other person be they male or female and know that it is the person that they wish to spend their lives with no matter what sex they are. That is the Unknown. It's not all about sex which many people seem to think. I know of several gay/lesbian couples that cannot have sex at all, but they are extremely happy with their partners. How do I know this? Well, when you have an open mind, you can have an open heart. With both, people are willing to share without you asking. This is why this thread was started I believe.

Religious background on myself:
Methodist
Southern Baptist
Church of Christ Jesus (almost thank goodness)
Catholic
UFMCC (Universal Federation of Metropolitan Community Churches)




*edit* was still upset about some earlier posts and went through to remove a couple inflamatory remarks not truly directed at the quoted person.

[Adex_Xeda]

Let me share two viewpoints, a common christain viewpoint, and then my personal viewpoint.

Here's a common theme I hear from some christains.

They belive that God blessed America. They belive that Judeo-Christain ethics are the key to America's success, and are a key to its current day strenght.

These individuals fear that a failure of personal morality or a movement away from Judeo-Christian ethics will cause God to remove his blessing from the USA.

Because of this, some are motivated to restore Judeo-Christain ethics in America through any means they can, personal persuasion, new laws, or political action.

In their mind they are trying to save people from a fall in morality. They think that the USA is doomed to fall like Rome, or Greece or decay like Europe, do to America's drifting away from Judeo-Christain ethics.

The point is, for this group, they're not trying to "hate" homosexuals, they're trying to "save" homosexuals from life empty at its soul, all the while they work to keep America in God's good graces.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally I think God works on the individual basis not the countrywide basis.
I think trying to convince non-christains that their lifestyle is self destructive, is a tactic that has little effect. A non-christain doesn't want to hear it.

We all search for God in our own ways. I belive all of searchings are dead ends, save for one. And when the moment is right, God stirs their heart, not me, not another christain.

God gets a non-christain's attention first. He may use a christain as a supplement to the experience, but God makes the first move.

What does that mean for me and how I might deal with a gay person?

Well, I do my best to give the guy a fair shake, I treat him like I would any other friend. If ever during my friendship, God starts tugging at my friend, I'll be there to help my friend make contact with his creator.

There's no hate in this, there's no I'm better than you. In that situation my gay friend and I are two insignificant nothings, made significant by something vastly greater than us, taking an interest in us.

[Drasta]

im sooo glad i don't live in the bible belt ...where people think that their religious views should be able to come down on people ... the thing wrong with america is that people want to put too much god into laws .... go look at the middle east ... their goverments are theoricries(did i spell that right?) and do you see how many damn god problems there are?

[Adex_Xeda]

I agree Drasta, there's a lot of religious flak out there.

Many empty people trying to touch God.

[Chidoro]

Jack Kemp made a whole lot of sense in the 1996 debates until he started throwing around the phrase "Judeo-Christian values". It's a shame that it needs to be said but some people really need to realize that not everyone follows the same religion as themselves.

I just remember saying to myself, "That son of a bitch, how dare he assume that his religious values are above all, especially my own". Sue me, I'm Jewish. I don't follow all of your rules Jack.

All I can say is that is why diversity is so important. People who have no exposure to other cultures or religions are too isolated from the rest of the world/country/state, and w/out it, they end up making grandiose statements like the one Kemp continued to toss out.

[vn_Tanc]

You should all go to the bbc website and read the latest furore over gay clergy in the church of england. Especially what the "evangelical groups" are saying.
Is it any wonder I want to throw the entire bunch in a sack and beat it with a baseball bat til my arms wither off? IS IT I ASK YOU!?!?!?!?!?!?

[Adex_Xeda]

Chidoro,

Not only were the world cultures, and inter-culture communication classes I took interesting, they had a guy to girl ratio of 10/90.

[Deward]

To my knowledge they haven't found a "Gay" gene but they have proven that some behaviors can be influenced by genes. Therefore some people might be inclined toward homosexuality because of their genes. Do you see what I mean? It is kind of tricky doctor speak.

I see nothing wrong with homosexual marriage. The government can tax them too. Marriage is no longer an institution based on religion alone. My wife and I had a "religion free" wedding. I made sure the minister understood that there was to be no mention of god, afterlife, blah, blah blah bullshit in his speech. Marriage is the joining of two people and their promise to commit to each other in a life together.

In the end, it is none of your fucking business what other people want to do in their personal lives.

Deward

[Sylvus]

The day I ever do or believe something because someone told me, is the day I ask to be locked up.

I don't care if it's your parents, your teacher, or your bible...I make sure everything I am told/taught checks out with reason before I bank on it.

Amen to that.

That brings to mind one of my favorite quotes. It's by Timothy Leary by way of Tool:

Think for yourself. Question authority. Throughout human history, as our species has faced a frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are or where we're going in this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations. Informing, forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable open-mindedness, chaotic confused vulnerability to inform yourself.

If you think about the Bible, and its authors, they were people just like you and me. For the most part, if I remember correctly, many of the people who wrote it didn't actually speak with God, but spoke with people that God spoke to. Or merely observed people that God acted upon. Then you have other people that read what they wrote, hundreds or even thousands of years ago, and translated it into another language that it wasn't originally written in. And other people that read that version and rewrote it. Or a King perhaps, that made his official version. Did any of those people have their own agendas? I'd say it's probably likely.

Couple that with the fact that people didn't understand a lot of the things that were going on around them in Biblical times, and needed something to explain certain phenomena (read: mythology) and it starts to sound a bit silly to follow that book to the letter. Again, remember that there's really no way for us to know that the letter you're following is even the one originally intended. For example, I'm sure that most Christians or Jews (or devout followers of any faith) would look at their flood myth (think Noah) and believe it to be God's honest truth, right? Why then does virtually every religion have a flood myth? Which one is right? Or are they all kind of right, in that there was a flood, and it just happens that 100 different people saw the flood and wrote 100 different accounts of it, spawning the different stories on the afforementioned page.

The Bible is a collection of folklore meant to explain some of the things that were going on in the world at a time when they didn't have science to help them figure things out, as well as a (very good) guide for a code of morality. It also suffers from too many people having their hand in it and a horribly antiquated view.

Here's what I get when I think of possible reasons why that whole homosexuality view should be revised. First, the Bible doesn't explicitly say "Homosexuality is bad!" It appears to have several places, open to interpretation, that could be referring to homosexuality. Okay, fair enough. Second, all this talk of "sex only for procreation" seems to come from a time when there were a lot less people living in the world. When you need more and more people to be soldiers in your armies and farmers in your fields it just won't do to have people wasting their time with sexual activity when it isn't going to make babies. "Hmm... how could we correct that problem? I've got it! Let's tell people they're going to be looking down the business end of a good smiting if they don't get to the reproduction." Ask yourself, why would God even make homosexuality possible if he hated it so much? Or why would he have made sex feel good if it was only to make babies? He could have just as easily made it so your balls started to hurt if you didn't stick the old willy in a girl's hoo-ha every now and again.

That's just my opinion, I hope no one will interpret this as me saying that faith is bad. Quite the contrary, I just believe that blindly following something that you read or hear without really thinking about it is a very bad idea.

I'm sure nobody even read this whole novel anyway. At least I killed some time at work. =P

[Krimson Klaw]

Here's some clarification on Lucifer

Lucifer was not an angel, nor is he the devil.

Lucifer was in reference as a title of a Babylonian King

Links for some information are as follows:

http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml

http://members.cox.net/galatians/Lucifer.htm

Or just do a google search for Lucifer.

That's definantly an alternative way of looking at it.