I'll take that apology now, Sylvos.

noel · Post by **noel** » April 26, 2005, 10:19 pm

theforce.net wrote:DEFINITIONS OF CANON

"What is 'canon' in the Star Wars universe?"
"Is this novel 'official?'"
"Did the events in this comic series actually take place?"

These are tough questions. Although the canonicity question has been debated ever since Marvel began to create Star Wars comics beyond the scope of the first movie, ever since Alan Dean Foster's Splinter of the Mind's Eye was first published, it was Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire that made fans ask the question more frequently and earnestly than ever before. In 1991, Lucasfilm, Ltd. commissioned Dark Horse Comics and about a dozen popular science fiction novelists to continue the Star Wars saga beyond the events told in the third motion picture produced, Star Wars, Episode VI: Return of the Jedi. And in a minor coup d'etat, Lucasfilm allowed Dark Horse Comics to add to the Star Wars mythos with adventures taking place four thousand years before the first movie, Star Wars, Episode IV: A New Hope. With this proliferation of Star Wars literature and the increasingly watchful eye of thousands of true and loyal fans, the canon question has become foremost in many of our minds.

Of course, some of you are wondering, "What the heck is canon?" Referencing The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition, and eliminating any definitions that have religious connotations, canon means:

"3. A basis for judgment; standard; criterion."
"7. An authoritative list, as of the works of an author."

Therefore, in our particular case, George Lucas, the author and creator of the Star Wars saga, is the only individual who can define what books, comics, or video games are authoritative when discussing the Star Wars universe and its characters, places and events. According to the premiere issue of the Star Wars Insider, the only works "canonized" have been the movies, their novelizations, and their radio drama adaptations. So what about novels like Heir to the Empire and the Jedi Academy trilogy, and comic series such as Dark Empire? West End Games, which produces exhaustive source material based on the movies and various novels, states in the Heir to the Empire Sourcebook that "this and all other products that take place after the events depicted in Return of the Jedi are the author's vision of what may have happened. The true fate of the heroes and villains of the Star Wars universe remains the exclusive province of George Lucas and Lucasfilm, Ltd." Kevin J. Anderson, author of the Jedi Academy trilogy, states in the introduction to the Dark Empire trade paperback that "when you read Dark Empire, or any of the other novels, remember that although Lucasfilm has approved them, they are our sequels, not George Lucas's. If Lucasfilm ever makes films that take place after Return of the Jedi, they will be George Lucas's own creations, probably with no connection to anything we have written." So what does this mean? Will George Lucas ignore all the events, characters, and premises that Timothy Zahn, Kevin J. Anderson, and Tom Veitch wrote about? Will all the books and comics have been bought in vain? Will a Star Wars "otherworld" suddenly exist when and if George Lucas makes episodes VII - IX? Only time will tell. In a related subject, many fans love to point out inconsistencies and changed premises that are (supposedly) inevitable when so many books and comics are being written in a relatively short period of time. So do these inconsistencies, some major, some minor, affect the canonicitiy of a book or comic? That's another question in itself. . .

Another definition of canon, this one coming from Steven J. Sansweet, author of the Star Wars Encyclopedia:

Which brings us to the often-asked question: Just what is Star Wars canon, and what is not? The one sure answer: The Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition -- the three films themselves as executive-produced, and in the case of Star Wars written and directed, by George Lucas, are canon. Coming in a close second we have the authorised adaptations of the three films: the novels, radio dramas, and comics. After that, almost everything falls into a category of "quasi-canon."

The STAR WARS films are the only primary reference. With the exception of only a few minor points, they are indisputable. This is not merely personal opinion; it is the explicit policy of the Continuity and Production Editors at Lucasfilm. They are interviewed in Star Wars Insider #23:

What's 'gospel' and what isn't?

'Gospel,' or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history -- with many off-shoots, variations and tangents -- like any other well-developed mythology.
(Thanks to Curtis Saxton's Star Wars Technical Commentaries)

PS SUCKS TO BE BOBA FETT. WHO IS DEAD!

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » April 26, 2005, 11:23 pm

What you managed to miss conviently is that I'm looking at a novel right now that is approved by George Lucas. The actual footnote in the Author's forward makes a note that Lucasfilms recognizes the novels as canon when dealing with the overall universe. The RPG books which I now have in my lap specifically note that "These are definitive sources for Star Wars Canon both before and after Episode VI."
You can download the pdf on some newsgroups if you wish its titled "Star Wars Roleplaying Game Revised Edition".

so..Boba Fett lives^^

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » April 26, 2005, 11:24 pm

and yes
we ARE geeks.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » April 26, 2005, 11:29 pm

oh.
Some books are not approved by Lucasfilms to be authorized canon.
Apparently only 17 out of the 67 Star Wars novels are canon source.
So I guess i'm 2/3rds wrong and 1/3rd right.
ITS STILL A PARTIAL WIN FOR THE HOME TEAM SINCE ALL THE RPG BOOKS ARE CANON!
FACEMASK NOEL FACE-FRICKIN-MASK!

edit: was not 26 was 17 novels out of 67.

noel · Post by **noel** » April 27, 2005, 1:16 am

Please refer to the emboldened portion of my initial post for my feelings on your wholly unsubstantiated assertions.

PS: Boba Fett called and said he agrees with you -- OH WAIT HE DIDN'T! BECAUSE HE IS DIGESTING IN THE ALMIGHTY SARLACC FOR 1000 YEARS.

Mr Bacon · Post by **Mr Bacon** » April 27, 2005, 1:17 am

losers

Post by **Xouqoa** » April 27, 2005, 1:40 am

NERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDS!

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » April 27, 2005, 1:54 am

omfg wtf no

Tegellan · Post by **Tegellan** » April 27, 2005, 2:39 am

Boba Fett can't be dead, i must side with Sylvos here!

noel · Post by **noel** » April 27, 2005, 2:53 am

Except for the fact that he did indeed die.

At any rate, the question of Boba Fett's status is simply a sidebar discussion to the actual question that was raised and is answered 100% correctly in my initial post. The important question is, 'What constitutes the canon in the Star Wars reality?'

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » April 27, 2005, 3:19 am

You obviously have not read the Bounty Hunters novel.... Quite excellent, actually.

noel · Post by **noel** » April 27, 2005, 3:29 am

Again, we're off the actual topic.

Whether I, or anyone has read any of the novels is not relevant to the question. I've read quite a few Star Wars novels. The question is not whether or not they're good. Many of them, including the bounty hunter novels, Heir to the Empire, and the new Clone Wars/Republic Commando novels are better than most of what Lucas has put out. Hell, KotOR1 was better than almost every movie. All that said. They're not in the canon.

Canon is a simple concept, and I really don't understand why people can't grasp it. It's not whether you like it, it's not whether you think it should be, it's what is authoritative. Period. That's it.

Cotto · Post by **Cotto** » April 27, 2005, 4:21 am

It was a really gay end for someone as pimp as Boba.

dibit_eq · Post by **dibit_eq** » April 27, 2005, 4:27 am

So what exactly is this definitive list of star wars products that form the universally accepted canon? I'd personally guess that if Lucasfilm permits a writer to tag the name of star wars on a product, there's some tacit approval on their part that the story makes the cut. This isn't really the case according to the given definition. Then again, the canon is defined by an authority on the matter. Who do we define as an authority on the SW universe?

For star wars, you've got 3 bodys of knowledge regarding the universe: Lucas, the published authors, and the nerd community.

Obviously George Lucas knows a few things about the universe seeing as he created it. Then again, he also wouldn't be a very consistant authority on the SW univserse, because of his tendency to change things.

The second group was sort of formed by Lucas when he passed the torch on to other individuals to carry on the story of the star wars universe (Timothy Zahn and Kevin J. Anderson would probably rank among the more knowledgeable of this group.) These writers took what Lucas developed and built on it. Researching facts from the existing material (aka, the trilogy) they expanded and made the SW universe.

Then lastly, there's the nerd community. Yes, this makes all published works of the universe to be considered canon, but it also excludes the fanfiction and other drivel you'll find on the internet. The overall nerd community personally seems like the worst crucible that any writer, be it Lucas or otherwise, would have to appease. They're all anal retentive when it comes to violating ANYTHING out of the SW universe's already published works and should anything every defile the sanctity of their beloved stories... well, they'll go and flame the messages boards...

I feel that the published authors and the overall nerd community are responsible for maintaining the sw universe, more than lucas. As such, what he feels is best, might not be best for the universe that has grown without him.

noel · Post by **noel** » April 27, 2005, 9:18 am

You're entitled to any opinion you like. That said, canon is not a gray area. Canon is black and white, and the first post has everything you need if you want to know what the canon is. Now, as a Star Wars geek, you pretty much have a responsibility to be up on the novels, and at least aware of their content, but you also have a responsibility to point out that the novels, comic books, and video games, though very interesting, AREN'T IN THE FUCKING CANON.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » April 27, 2005, 10:06 am

Boba Fett gets out out the Sarlacc in 'Tales from Jaba's Palace' I think. (A collection of short stories.) I'm pretty sure that's not canon.

noel · Post by **noel** » April 27, 2005, 10:48 am

Oh look!

starwars.com wrote: Jabba's attempt to feed Luke Skywalker, Han Solo and Chewbacca to the Sarlacc ended in disaster. Skywalker broke free of his captors, and made short work of Jabba's guards, many of whom found themselves tumbling into the pit. Even the infamous bounty hunter Boba Fett could not escape the disgusting creature, as an out-of-control rocket pack deposited the armored hunter into the Sarlacc's gullet.

George Lucas wrote:What does George Lucas think about Boba Fett's popularity? Does he think Boba Fett is still alive?

Responding to questions in a 1997 MTV promo for the Special Editions, George Lucas said: "I don't know why. [Laughs]. I'm mystified by it. He's a mysterious character. He's a provocative character. He seems like an all powerful character, except he gets killed. Although he's gotten killed, the people who right the books, and everything, and the comics say 'we cant kill him, we gotta bring him back, we can't let him die!'"

Link is to video.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » April 27, 2005, 11:01 am

Someone (Noel) has outnerded Sylvos, don't see that everyday

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » April 27, 2005, 11:02 am

im gonna stab you and Lucas in the face

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » April 27, 2005, 11:06 am

noel wrote: in the Star Wars reality?'

Star Wars reallity.

That made me laugh.

noel · Post by **noel** » April 27, 2005, 11:16 am

Aabidano wrote:Someone (Noel) has outnerded Sylvos, don't see that everyday

LOL, totally. If only Shaerra had said Wars instead of Trek, I would have had to agree with her.

Actually, my best friend works at Lucasarts, and part of their new-hire training is going over all this shit.

dibit_eq · Post by **dibit_eq** » April 27, 2005, 11:35 am

All that I meant is that there is some ambiguity in the definition of canon. You cited that a canon is

noel wrote: "7. An authoritative list, as of the works of an author."

To the star wars galaxy, you could say that there are more than one author. As such, there is a contested authority regarding who selects the star wars canon.

Canon is a really well defined concept, but the question on who is the authority of the star wars universe isn't. Lucas started it, others expanded on it, not unlike biblical canon. I'm pretty sure the original writers didn't brainstorm much together. Possibly a group... educated in such matters... decided upon what was canon for that? Couldn't the published authors be knowledgeable of the star wars universe as much as and possibly more so than Lucas himself?

Also, George Lucas mentioned once of Boba Fett dying.... yeah, that's immaterial. He also once claimed that Han shot first and see how that panned out.

noel · Post by **noel** » April 27, 2005, 11:45 am

That's a perfect example of a canon change that I fucking hate. That said, it is now, part of the Star Wars canon.

Dude, I didn't define the word canon. That's the American Heritage dictionary. Read the first post, it defines the canon for Star Wars, who determines what it is, and what constitutes it. It's black and white.

The first goddamn post wrote:George Lucas, the author and creator of the Star Wars saga, is the only individual who can define what books, comics, or video games are authoritative when discussing the Star Wars universe and its characters, places and events. According to the premiere issue of the Star Wars Insider, the only works "canonized" have been the movies, their novelizations, and their radio drama adaptations.

dibit_eq · Post by **dibit_eq** » April 27, 2005, 12:09 pm

I only mentioned you cited it... as in, you referenced it from another source. I used the definition provided though, so even if it was something you simply created on the spot... well, my use of it said that I felt you were right in that definition.

Regardless, this is sounding more like a clash of opinions regarding a concept of the english language... riddled full of ambiguity and subject to limitless interpretation. I'm done.

noel · Post by **noel** » April 27, 2005, 12:23 pm

What the fuck is ambiguous about what constitutes the canon for Star Wars. For fuck's sake. You're here making emotional bullshit arguments, and I'm citing numerous sources that are authoritative on the Star Wars canon. If you can't bring something substantial to the table then shut the fuck up.

dibit_eq · Post by **dibit_eq** » April 27, 2005, 12:57 pm

Well... your sources were all from Lucas in the first place. That's like some archaic king claiming he invented everything because he has the power to back it up with might (in this case, copyright law.)

Fair enough though, no more emotional responses out of me like name-calling and profanity. Here's my attempt at doing this the correct way.

American Heritage Dictionary (4th edition, not the 2nd that your quote used) goes like this:

5a. A group of literary works that are generally accepted as representing a field: “the durable canon of American short fiction” (William Styron). b. The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic: the entire Shakespeare canon.

Now, I'm going to pick apart at this definition and attempt to show you both sides of the arguement I've tried to say earlier. Namely, "The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic" is where I'm getting hooked on this.

Did George Lucas write and create the SW universe? Yes.
Did Timothy Zahn write in the SW universe? ...

Well, did Lucas allow for the Star Wars title to grace the cover of this other authors book? Yes.

So, this book that now bears the title Star Wars: ____ that only Lucas can acknowledge it as canon of the SW universe... isn't?

Lucas is still human, and prone to indecision on a grand scale. So far, he's shown, at least in his actions, that he feels the books are canon... even if the dont work along with his personal plotline of the universe.

Lucas: A. Allowed for the books to bear the name of his universe. B. Allowed these books to alter/add to the stories of his already established characters. C. Acknowledges the books as canon by having his employee's read them (if those stories were, in fact, bunk, then they'd have no relevance to the SW universe and thus should be ignored.)

Point C, could be argued, though, because he could be terrified that the nerd community would rise up if he accidentally incorporated ideas of the other "Star Wars" (read: fake star wars I suppose) authors.

Ok, I made my quote. Attempted to explain my views and then ellaborated. Now following this I guess would be the counterarguement of "omg ur wrong fuck you" right? Or maybe... you can argue your views better than that.

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » April 27, 2005, 1:06 pm

ok wtf is this thread about .. im totally lost im not a starwars geek ! explain in stupid people terms

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » April 27, 2005, 1:09 pm

#1. you guys are fucking losers

#2. Boba Fett isnt dead. He was regurgitated by the Sarlaac and bragged about how it found him "most indigestible".

i can't source that, but it is in my brain, and i am sticking with it.

anybody who uses the word "Canon" in conjuncttion with Star Wars to the degree that this discussion is using it, should perhaps be loaded into a canon, or at least stood immediately in front of one!!

dibit_eq · Post by **dibit_eq** » April 27, 2005, 1:09 pm

Debate on whether the the Star Wars books actually exist in the Star Wars "universe." Then a subdebate that's debating Lucas' authority over said universe.

edit: and I agree with Voronwë on both points.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » April 27, 2005, 1:13 pm

fuck George Lucas, fuck Star Wars. The whole franchise is a steaming pile of dogshit.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » April 27, 2005, 1:20 pm

http://www.StarWars.com wrote:Fett's armor and body were extremely battered by his ordeal in the Sarlacc. When he plunged into the beast, he was kept alive by numerous fibrous suckers that attached themselves to his body. This was part of the Sarlacc's horrible metabolic process; it would keep its prey alive for thousands of years, all the while slowly feeding off it. Fett almost lost his identity in the swirling dementia brought about by the Sarlacc's toxins. His resolve held, and he used his weapons to blast free of the beast.

Naked, wounded, and defenseless on the sands of Tatooine, Fett was rescued by his fellow hunter Dengar, who nursed him back to health. Fett reclaimed his armor and his reputation, returning from the "dead," and again taking on bounties. It wasn't until six years after the Battle of Endor that Han Solo learned his nemesis was still alive. Although Fett still piloted his antiquated Slave I, he updated his arsenal with the ultrasleek Slave II. These were but the first two of his vessels, which would eventually number up to Slave IV.

Its the Official Site.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » April 27, 2005, 1:25 pm

I can't believe Voronwe not only defended me but he managed to outnerd me at the same time.
I am humbled.
and
IN YOUR FACE LAFLUER-NOEL!!!!!!!!
BOBA FETT LIVES

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » April 27, 2005, 1:29 pm

That site is everything that is Star Wars and can not be considered canon. Notice the words "extended universe" above his entry.

There are things in the video games that conflict with the main story.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/charac ... erousordo/

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » April 27, 2005, 1:32 pm

my wife isnt going to sleep with me tonight just because i posted on this thread. she will have no knowledge of this thread, yet will still know that i did something today that makes me unfuckable.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » April 27, 2005, 1:34 pm

This is true but they are including content from their liscencees which may or may not be Canon.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » April 27, 2005, 1:36 pm

Voronwë wrote:my wife isnt going to sleep with me tonight just because i posted on this thread. she will have no knowledge of this thread, yet will still know that i did something today that makes me unfuckable.

hhaahaahhaahahaahahahhaha

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » April 27, 2005, 1:37 pm

Lohrno wrote:This is true but they are including content from their liscencees which may or may not be Canon.

Tell that to the Chief Logray doll you still sleep with

by the way, wtf does the video game character have to do with anything, Canderous Ordo. i skimmed his "bio", and he has absolutely nothing of consequence to do with any even trivial plot element in the movies, therefore, who gives a crap what he has or has not to do with anything.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » April 27, 2005, 1:45 pm

this thread keeps getting better and better every post.

Ebumar · Post by **Ebumar** » April 27, 2005, 1:48 pm

Man who the hell cares. We all have fun with the books. Who cares weather they are "true" or not.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » April 27, 2005, 1:52 pm

k it kept getting better and better til ebumar posted.
now it may suck.

noel · Post by **noel** » April 27, 2005, 1:52 pm

Lorhno pretty much nailed it. Extended universe/another author's interpretation of the Star Wars universe, though compelling, is not canon.

It's fucking Lucasfilm genius at it's finest. He allows other people to write novels using pieces of his creation, and he collects a check, but he's still free to do whatever he wants with his intellectual property.

The thing that makes it difficult for you Star Wars geeks is that the authors of the comic books/novels, etc. either through some agreement or just pure luck have done a great job of maintaining continuity in the extended universe as well as referencing each other's works. So you could say that in the 'Star Wars extended universe canon', Fett is alive and well and a badass, but in the Star Wars canon, he died like a bitch, just like his father.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » April 27, 2005, 2:01 pm

noel wrote:The thing that makes it difficult for you Star Wars geeks

He meant to say us

Emphasis mine.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » April 27, 2005, 2:01 pm

noel wrote:So you could say that in the 'Star Wars extended universe canon', Fett is alive and well and a badass, but in the Star Wars canon, he died like a bitch, just like his father.

But that might not be accurate either. Until something that is canon says otherwise he is in the Sarlacc pit. It does take like 1000 years for it to digest anything.

We just don't know what happened to Fett in the canon. Is he still being digested, did he somehow escape, or did he commit suicide?

noel · Post by **noel** » April 27, 2005, 2:02 pm

We know he was a clone of a bitch!

Vannoth · Post by **Vannoth** » April 27, 2005, 2:03 pm

Xouqoa wrote:
NERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDS!

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » April 27, 2005, 2:03 pm

i'll tell you what happened.
Fett got the fuck out.
Said "lol" then blasted his way through the sarlacc.
then he got in his ship and "lol" then left.
and got all fucking pissed off and kicked ass.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » April 27, 2005, 2:05 pm

taking this up a notch.

Boba Fett is both alive and dead in thanks to quantum physics.

Until he is observed to be either dead or alive inside the Sarlaac, he is both.

Just like Schrodinger's cat.

PS: Schrodinger's cat is a bullshit thought experiment.

Adding to what Sylvos provided, he probably threw out a couple "bitches" on his way into the Tatooine atmosphere.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » April 27, 2005, 2:10 pm

Voronwë wrote:taking this up a notch.

Boba Fett is both alive and dead in thanks to quantum physics.

Until he is observed to be either dead or alive inside the Sarlaac, he is both.

Just like Schrodinger's cat.

PS: Schrodinger's cat is a bullshit thought experiment.

Bravo!!

noel · Post by **noel** » April 27, 2005, 2:17 pm

Voronwë wrote:taking this up a notch.

Boba Fett is both alive and dead in thanks to quantum physics.

Until he is observed to be either dead or alive inside the Sarlaac, he is both.

Just like Schrodinger's cat.

PS: Schrodinger's cat is a bullshit thought experiment.

Adding to what Sylvos provided, he probably threw out a couple "bitches" on his way into the Tatooine atmosphere.

That I can 100% agree with. It in no way contradicts the canon.

In the Extended Universe, he's a live and well though.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » April 27, 2005, 2:20 pm

Boba Fett is so bad ass.
I will stat him out for you right now.

Boba Fett (beginning of Episode V): Male Human Soldier 6/Scoundrel 1/Bounty Hunter 6; Initiative +3 (Dex); Defense 21
(+8 class, +3 Dex); DR 4, Speed 10m; VP/WP 100/15; Atk: +14/+9/+4 melee (1d4+2, knife) or +15/+10/+5 ranged (3d8/19-20,
blaster rifle) or +15/+10/+5 ranged (2d4, laser gauntlet) or +15 ranged (2d6 flamethrower gauntlet) or +13 ranged (2d6, rocket
dart) or +15 ranged (DC 15/12, stun grenade) or +15 ranged (5d6/3d6, missile) or +15 ranged (special, whipcord); SQ Illicit barter,
target bonus +3, sneak attack +3d6; SV Fort +10, Ref +10, WIll +6; SZ M; FP 2; DSP 4; Rep +9; Str 15, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 11,
Wis 13, Cha 13.
Equipment: Modified padded battle armor, flight suit, jet pack (with integrated missile laucher), blaster rifle equiped with
stun grenade launcher, laser gauntlet, flamethrower gauntlet, whipcord, rocket darts, sonic beam weapon, spiked boots, magnetic grappling hook, survival knife, ammo belt, antisecurity blades, Firespray-class patrol/attack ship (Slave 1).
Skills: Astrogate +6, Computer use +6, Demolitions +8, Disable Device +6, Gather Information +7, Hide +7, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (streetwise) +10, Listen +5, Move Silently +7, Pilot +11, Profession (bounty hunter) +5, Read/Write Basic, Repair +5,
Speak Basic, Spot +5, Survival +6.
Feats: Armor Proficiencies (light, medium, heavy, powered), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip), Infamy, Martial Artist, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Starship Operation (space transport), Track, Weapon Group Proficiencies (blaster pistols, blaster rifles,
heavy weapons, simple weapons, vibro weapons).

VeeshanVault

I'll take that apology now, Sylvos.

I'll take that apology now, Sylvos.

Re: I'll take that apology now, Sylvos.