Laura Bush, just another redneck
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Vetiria
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When Bush decides how to run the country based on his religious views, he is shoving his religion down our throats. I will continue to slam him on it every chance I get, because it is not the government's job to legislate morality. Especially when this research could save more lives than any religion ever has.
Yeah but the problem with the concept Vetiria, is even an atheist would shove his lack of belief, an agnostic would shove his lack of commitment, etc.Vetiria wrote:When Bush decides how to run the country based on his religious views, he is shoving his religion down our throats. I will continue to slam him on it every chance I get, because it is not the government's job to legislate morality. Especially when this research could save more lives than any religion ever has.
Presidents are going to have faiths of some sort or another, the problem is not "Bush" but representational democracy itself, of course if you have any better ideas...
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
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Akaran_D
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As opposed to the "live life how you want do whatever you want as long as it's legal" mentality that's shoved down our (religious people's) throats every time we turn on the TV, our web browser, go to the store, ect?heh religious people shove their gospel down our throats daily
It's two sides of the same coin.
Religion is not the source of all evil in this world, but it seems to be the only "politically correct" thing you can blame.
Akaran of Mistmoore, formerly Akaran of Veeshan
I know I'm good at what I do, but I know I'm not the best.
But I guess that on the other hand, I could be like the rest.
I know I'm good at what I do, but I know I'm not the best.
But I guess that on the other hand, I could be like the rest.
Well I don't knock on your door, put my foot in the opening and start babbling bullshit. Nor do I damn you to Hell if I tell them to leave, now do I?As opposed to the "live life how you want do whatever you want as long as it's legal" mentality that's shoved down our (religious people's) throats every time we turn on the TV, our web browser, go to the store, ect?
I leave people alone with their religion as long as it doesn't impact me. When it does, I will gladly tell them to fuck off. And that includes a President who sounds like a religious fanatic and some of his quotes might as well come from bin Laden.
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Akaran_D
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So.. would you bash an aethist for doing something that you found wrong if he used his beliefs (or lack thereof) to back his reasoning up?
Very curious.
Very curious.
Akaran of Mistmoore, formerly Akaran of Veeshan
I know I'm good at what I do, but I know I'm not the best.
But I guess that on the other hand, I could be like the rest.
I know I'm good at what I do, but I know I'm not the best.
But I guess that on the other hand, I could be like the rest.
this has nothing to do with abortions.
they want cell lines from fertilized eggs that are in freezers in a fertility clinic.
If you and your spouse need to use IVF (in vitro fertilization) to conceive, you go do one surgical extraction of the woman's eggs, so they get litterally dozens out so they don't have to repeated do surgery.
They freeze them. As implantations occur (with anywhere from 1-4+ per attempt), pregnancies either take or do not. Many couples have all the children they want while they still may have 5 or more frozen fertilized eggs (zygotes not embryos...but politically they are called embryos). So those cells will either stay in a freezer forever or get thrown in the trash can.
If a family consents to have their frozen fertilized eggs donated to scientific research (any lab would happily pay for any processing fee to get that tissue), and there you go.
Bush claims to support the legislation already passed that makes about 60 cell lines available to research. According to a conversation I had recently with a bioethicist, only about 20 of those cell lines have been made available. Additionally, if you seek federal funding for any research that you do, you must set up an entirely different facility to do research with embryonic stem cells. So you add extra-overhead, extra administrative costs, as well as wasting the scientists time by making him manage more budgetary affairs as well as physical headcount.
The Republican party is on the wrong side of this issue, and to confuse their base they comingle anti-abortion propaganda with this.
Stem cell research is in no way shape or form related to abortion.
Additionally, the stem cells in umbilical cords are not "pleuripotent", so they cannot make embryonic stem cell lines. Only cells from very early stage embryos have the potential to become any tissue type (with our current technology).
The long term goal is to not have to use embryonic stem cells to create new tissue. It is a bridge while we learn more about development and differentiation so that in the future (maybe only 50 years or so), we can take differentiated tissue (like a skin sample from your body), grow cell lines from that which can be differentiated to form tissue that can regenerate whatever you need regenerated.
another thing that is useful, is that in the right conditions in a lab, you can literally make one fertilized egg grow into hundreds if not thousands (i have no clue) of stem cells. If not millions or billions down the road.
It isnt like you are going to use 1,000 embryos per implantation procedure to fix a Parkinson's patient.
they want cell lines from fertilized eggs that are in freezers in a fertility clinic.
If you and your spouse need to use IVF (in vitro fertilization) to conceive, you go do one surgical extraction of the woman's eggs, so they get litterally dozens out so they don't have to repeated do surgery.
They freeze them. As implantations occur (with anywhere from 1-4+ per attempt), pregnancies either take or do not. Many couples have all the children they want while they still may have 5 or more frozen fertilized eggs (zygotes not embryos...but politically they are called embryos). So those cells will either stay in a freezer forever or get thrown in the trash can.
If a family consents to have their frozen fertilized eggs donated to scientific research (any lab would happily pay for any processing fee to get that tissue), and there you go.
Bush claims to support the legislation already passed that makes about 60 cell lines available to research. According to a conversation I had recently with a bioethicist, only about 20 of those cell lines have been made available. Additionally, if you seek federal funding for any research that you do, you must set up an entirely different facility to do research with embryonic stem cells. So you add extra-overhead, extra administrative costs, as well as wasting the scientists time by making him manage more budgetary affairs as well as physical headcount.
The Republican party is on the wrong side of this issue, and to confuse their base they comingle anti-abortion propaganda with this.
Stem cell research is in no way shape or form related to abortion.
Additionally, the stem cells in umbilical cords are not "pleuripotent", so they cannot make embryonic stem cell lines. Only cells from very early stage embryos have the potential to become any tissue type (with our current technology).
The long term goal is to not have to use embryonic stem cells to create new tissue. It is a bridge while we learn more about development and differentiation so that in the future (maybe only 50 years or so), we can take differentiated tissue (like a skin sample from your body), grow cell lines from that which can be differentiated to form tissue that can regenerate whatever you need regenerated.
another thing that is useful, is that in the right conditions in a lab, you can literally make one fertilized egg grow into hundreds if not thousands (i have no clue) of stem cells. If not millions or billions down the road.
It isnt like you are going to use 1,000 embryos per implantation procedure to fix a Parkinson's patient.
You know, I can promise you that in public speechesmost of our Presidents have sounded overly religious, especially early Presidents.
I find a few things intriguing about this, since I am not anti choice, but pro choice, I was nervous about GW from the get go, but I honestly took it with a grain of salt, since it only makes sense for someone trying to overshadow their cocaine and alcohol use to claim to be born again.
It appears he may be a real believer, and I do not have a problem with that, nor with him using the basic morality of Christianity, what scares me is that Born Again people tend to be all fervent and wild eyed about things.
Of course Kerry claims to be Christian also, but he does not have the conviction of his own beliefs. So I am stuck, the Devout and Thusly Scary Bush, or the Lying and Unable to back up his beliefs Kerry. Both of them are equally inept.
The closest thing to an answer I have seen is at http://www.lp.org/
I find a few things intriguing about this, since I am not anti choice, but pro choice, I was nervous about GW from the get go, but I honestly took it with a grain of salt, since it only makes sense for someone trying to overshadow their cocaine and alcohol use to claim to be born again.
It appears he may be a real believer, and I do not have a problem with that, nor with him using the basic morality of Christianity, what scares me is that Born Again people tend to be all fervent and wild eyed about things.
Of course Kerry claims to be Christian also, but he does not have the conviction of his own beliefs. So I am stuck, the Devout and Thusly Scary Bush, or the Lying and Unable to back up his beliefs Kerry. Both of them are equally inept.
The closest thing to an answer I have seen is at http://www.lp.org/
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
I'm going to go out on a limb and say in your scenario, nobody's specific rights are infriged upon aside from your personal and/or religious hang ups. I'm sorry Ak, but you're way out of line on this one. All my beliefs do is make you uncomfortable because it's not something you feel is moral to do. However, your morals PREVENT myself or someone that doesn't believe as you do, to follow thru. You just don't seem to get thatAkaran_D wrote:As opposed to the "live life how you want do whatever you want as long as it's legal" mentality that's shoved down our (religious people's) throats every time we turn on the TV, our web browser, go to the store, ect?
It's two sides of the same coin.
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Aaeamdar
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Its not two sides of the same coin at all.As opposed to the "live life how you want do whatever you want as long as it's legal" mentality that's shoved down our (religious people's) throats every time we turn on the TV, our web browser, go to the store, ect?
It's two sides of the same coin.
If the atheist possition was to abolish you religion, forbid its practice and jail people who did practice it, then it would be the other side of the coin.
You (like Bush and all other religious nuts) are concerned with restricting what other people can do even though it has no effect on you at all.
The legal availablity of abortion does not require that you abort nor approve of those that do.
The legal right to homosexual sex, marriage and work does not require that you become a homosexual nor approve of those that are.
The legalization of drugs, prostitution, pornography, etc. does not require that you participate or approve in any of it.
Etc, etc, etc.
You don't like the idea that other people might be doing things of which you don't approve, so you want laws out there to punish those that try.
People acting on "atheist" beliefs are not trying to stop you from being a Christian or acting on your beliefs (though you'd give that crap up if you knew what was good for you - but I am sure you feel the same about me). Christians are very much - I'd say solely focused on or obsessed with even - trying to prevent others from acting in ways not in line with their beliefs.
The difference between the approaches is night and day.
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Akaran_D
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I'm not out of line, Chid.
I'm simply sick and tired of having everything that this administration does or anything that the conservitive party does being bashed by the people on this board as having it based in religious fundamentalism.
Some things, yes, it is. Some things, it isn't. Suck it up vote next election and deal with it.
Tbh Chid, I don't care what you do. If you do something that I don't think is right, as long as it is legal, I can't stop you nor is it even in my power or right to tell you you shouldn't. It wouldn't make me feel uncomfortable if you slept with your mother and threw 15 person strong orgies in Times Square. If that's what you want to do, go ahead. I don't have the power to change that, and under 99% of the things that I find offensive, I wouldn't if I could.
However, that being said.
There are things that are personal beliefs that may or may not be felt or agreed with by the rest of the nation or not, with the practictioners of my religion or not, or with the voting public or not, that if I was in the position to change, I would. Name me one person that doesn't have some kind of agenda - weather it be personal or public - that they wouldn't try to address if placed in their purview.
Enviornmentalists try and stop people from polluting. The people doing the polluting don't think or don't care if what they're doing is wrong, but the Enviornmentalists among us (or the earth conscious, at least) try to inflict their views on them.
Homosexuals want to have the rights afforded to them under the US Marriage Laws. If, say, Aaeamdar was in charge of the country, wouldn't it be safe to say that he would try and validate laws or repeal those that either supported it (if former) or against it (if latter), regardless of what anyone else thought about it - because it is what he thinks is right?
People with an eye towards national security have their own views and enact policy to protect their interests, be it as simple as increasing security at airports and seaports or invading another country - be it the correct decision or not, regardless of what anyone else thinks about it. Do you complain about longer wait times at airports? Yeah, you do. If you felt that if you didn't put those standards in place that something henious would happen to either yourself or the people you love, wouldn't you do it?
Judges and law enforcement officers have their own agendas, too. Some lean harder towards cleaning up druggies, some lean harder towards punishing child molesters. Do you complain when someone gets a life sentance when they have commited a crime? Do you complain when someone gets an extended sentance for something you find particulary revolting?
Just so, why JUST bash the Christian minded folk that try to do what THEY feel is right when you would do your best to do what you think is right if you were placed in the same situation? Everyone has an agenda. Be honest with yourself about it. When you are placed in a place where you can inact policy that would further that agenda and/or the agends of your constituants and/or campaign financers, chances are good, you'll do it.
We're all equally guilty of it.
I'm simply sick and tired of having everything that this administration does or anything that the conservitive party does being bashed by the people on this board as having it based in religious fundamentalism.
Some things, yes, it is. Some things, it isn't. Suck it up vote next election and deal with it.
Tbh Chid, I don't care what you do. If you do something that I don't think is right, as long as it is legal, I can't stop you nor is it even in my power or right to tell you you shouldn't. It wouldn't make me feel uncomfortable if you slept with your mother and threw 15 person strong orgies in Times Square. If that's what you want to do, go ahead. I don't have the power to change that, and under 99% of the things that I find offensive, I wouldn't if I could.
However, that being said.
There are things that are personal beliefs that may or may not be felt or agreed with by the rest of the nation or not, with the practictioners of my religion or not, or with the voting public or not, that if I was in the position to change, I would. Name me one person that doesn't have some kind of agenda - weather it be personal or public - that they wouldn't try to address if placed in their purview.
Enviornmentalists try and stop people from polluting. The people doing the polluting don't think or don't care if what they're doing is wrong, but the Enviornmentalists among us (or the earth conscious, at least) try to inflict their views on them.
Homosexuals want to have the rights afforded to them under the US Marriage Laws. If, say, Aaeamdar was in charge of the country, wouldn't it be safe to say that he would try and validate laws or repeal those that either supported it (if former) or against it (if latter), regardless of what anyone else thought about it - because it is what he thinks is right?
People with an eye towards national security have their own views and enact policy to protect their interests, be it as simple as increasing security at airports and seaports or invading another country - be it the correct decision or not, regardless of what anyone else thinks about it. Do you complain about longer wait times at airports? Yeah, you do. If you felt that if you didn't put those standards in place that something henious would happen to either yourself or the people you love, wouldn't you do it?
Judges and law enforcement officers have their own agendas, too. Some lean harder towards cleaning up druggies, some lean harder towards punishing child molesters. Do you complain when someone gets a life sentance when they have commited a crime? Do you complain when someone gets an extended sentance for something you find particulary revolting?
Just so, why JUST bash the Christian minded folk that try to do what THEY feel is right when you would do your best to do what you think is right if you were placed in the same situation? Everyone has an agenda. Be honest with yourself about it. When you are placed in a place where you can inact policy that would further that agenda and/or the agends of your constituants and/or campaign financers, chances are good, you'll do it.
We're all equally guilty of it.
Akaran of Mistmoore, formerly Akaran of Veeshan
I know I'm good at what I do, but I know I'm not the best.
But I guess that on the other hand, I could be like the rest.
I know I'm good at what I do, but I know I'm not the best.
But I guess that on the other hand, I could be like the rest.
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Akaran_D
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It says nothing about personal beliefs, however.
Akaran of Mistmoore, formerly Akaran of Veeshan
I know I'm good at what I do, but I know I'm not the best.
But I guess that on the other hand, I could be like the rest.
I know I'm good at what I do, but I know I'm not the best.
But I guess that on the other hand, I could be like the rest.
Personal beliefs has nothing to do with statements like "I do the work of God", "I pray to God for guidance for my decissions, and he answers me" etc. Now where those comments made by Bush or bin Laden? 
When you run a country that way which has "Separation of church and state" as a part of the constitution.. hell let's take Bush to Supreme Court for being unconstitutional! Maybe we can get him overthrown! HAH!
When you run a country that way which has "Separation of church and state" as a part of the constitution.. hell let's take Bush to Supreme Court for being unconstitutional! Maybe we can get him overthrown! HAH!
You know, I would not worry about it, I have money that sauy Bush is up for impeachment for letting his Vice Presidents Chief of State out a CIA agent and probably soon.
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
I'm afraid I have to call bullshit Ak. There are a number of things that infringe on my rights if you were to deem them wrong. And drop the whole outlandish fuck your mother line of reasoning as if they even come close to the same issue that's being stated here.
As someone who's worked in the healthcare and/or insurance industry since before you hit puberty(and that's not an exaggeration) I can tell you that your personal beliefs, which happen to echo Bush and his God fearing wife's, would prevent a number of people from getting state of the art care and the cost of it would be able to be kept w/in insurance rates.
You just don't seem to understand that it's your belief which prevents ME from getting the care. And it's because of YOUR religious convictions. Pardon my french but, fuck that.
As someone who's worked in the healthcare and/or insurance industry since before you hit puberty(and that's not an exaggeration) I can tell you that your personal beliefs, which happen to echo Bush and his God fearing wife's, would prevent a number of people from getting state of the art care and the cost of it would be able to be kept w/in insurance rates.
You just don't seem to understand that it's your belief which prevents ME from getting the care. And it's because of YOUR religious convictions. Pardon my french but, fuck that.
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Akaran_D
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What beliefs do I have that prevent ANYONE from getting necessary medical care? if someone is hurt, you HELP THEM, it's a given, it's not an option. You heal the sick and help the poor - does not matter what race or sex you are, my beleifs tell me to help anyone and everyone that I possibly can.. how does that infringe on your ability to get medical care?
edit: Kel, I beleive that all prayers are answered. I beleive that if you pray hard enough for guidance, you'll get it - may not be the way you were expecting it, but.
It is also my interpetation that when they wrote a "seperation of church and state", that was to cover actually having state run church or religious orginizations, and does not dictate that I may or may not say my personal beleifs or what I do in my personal time when I address the public. I wouldn't be able to tell you - I'm not a constitutional lawyer, I don't know if you are or not.
edit: Kel, I beleive that all prayers are answered. I beleive that if you pray hard enough for guidance, you'll get it - may not be the way you were expecting it, but.
It is also my interpetation that when they wrote a "seperation of church and state", that was to cover actually having state run church or religious orginizations, and does not dictate that I may or may not say my personal beleifs or what I do in my personal time when I address the public. I wouldn't be able to tell you - I'm not a constitutional lawyer, I don't know if you are or not.
Akaran of Mistmoore, formerly Akaran of Veeshan
I know I'm good at what I do, but I know I'm not the best.
But I guess that on the other hand, I could be like the rest.
I know I'm good at what I do, but I know I'm not the best.
But I guess that on the other hand, I could be like the rest.
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Legenae
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Akaran, I don't think that Chid means YOU specifically are keeping people from receiving medical care.
I could be wrong and totally mis-read Chid's posts.
What I think Chid means is that Bush is using HIS personal, religous beliefs (which happen to echo your beliefs) to hold back research on stem cells. Just like Bush was using HIS personal, religous beliefs to keep gay people from getting married, etc. Whether people agree with Bush doing it or not, it DOES infringe on other people's rights.Chidoro wrote:I'm afraid I have to call bullshit Ak. There are a number of things that infringe on my rights if you were to deem them wrong.
I could be wrong and totally mis-read Chid's posts.
If Bush is somehow re-elected, most likely due to the very misfortunate chance of a terrorist attack before election time, then i can see members of the movement pushing for impeachment on Bush, im sure there are thousands of counts we could get him out for.
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Drasta
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how are they going to shove their beliefs down your throat if they don't have any beliefs to shove down your throat ... thats like shooting someone with a gun when the gun has no bullets ...Kylere wrote:Yeah but the problem with the concept Vetiria, is even an atheist would shove his lack of belief, an agnostic would shove his lack of commitment, etc.Vetiria wrote:When Bush decides how to run the country based on his religious views, he is shoving his religion down our throats. I will continue to slam him on it every chance I get, because it is not the government's job to legislate morality. Especially when this research could save more lives than any religion ever has.
Presidents are going to have faiths of some sort or another, the problem is not "Bush" but representational democracy itself, of course if you have any better ideas...
You can push a negative, by treating everyone else as if their beliefs are invalid because you do not share them, or was that rhetorical, if it was I did not give you enough credit, and if it was not, I gave you too much,Drasta wrote:how are they going to shove their beliefs down your throat if they don't have any beliefs to shove down your throat ... thats like shooting someone with a gun when the gun has no bullets ...Kylere wrote:Yeah but the problem with the concept Vetiria, is even an atheist would shove his lack of belief, an agnostic would shove his lack of commitment, etc.Vetiria wrote:When Bush decides how to run the country based on his religious views, he is shoving his religion down our throats. I will continue to slam him on it every chance I get, because it is not the government's job to legislate morality. Especially when this research could save more lives than any religion ever has.
Presidents are going to have faiths of some sort or another, the problem is not "Bush" but representational democracy itself, of course if you have any better ideas...
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
Bust Drasta, suppose the devout athiest decides to select Supreme Court candidates who feel churches should not be tax free, or that churches should not be allowed to use public lands for meetings, etc. An athiest could be just as oppresive to those who are religious as a Religious Nut is to those who are not.
Whomever is elected this year, will get to pick at least one and maybe even 3 Supreme Court Justices, and in the next term(2008-2012) probably 3-4 will be picked.
What we need is a realization that Presidents rarely if ever act as people want them to, they act as they feel is right, or if not right, the least damaging to their chance of reelection.
Whomever is elected this year, will get to pick at least one and maybe even 3 Supreme Court Justices, and in the next term(2008-2012) probably 3-4 will be picked.
What we need is a realization that Presidents rarely if ever act as people want them to, they act as they feel is right, or if not right, the least damaging to their chance of reelection.
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
.... but who says churches should be tax free? who says they should be able to meet at public facilities? lets see ... they are a non-profit orginization ....