For the chickenhawks to munch on

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » August 19, 2003, 3:21 am

We all know for fact that no country has ever risen to power and tried/has taken over another one.......

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » August 19, 2003, 7:22 am

"The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."

- Joseph Goebbels, German Minister of Propaganda, 1933-1945

Goebbels probably never imagined that the people would flat out ignore the truth and thus remain willing pawns.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » August 19, 2003, 9:11 am

Not to say that you or this Charlie Reese, whoever, are wrong.... But, I find it hard to believe that:

a. the President
b. the VP/Cabinet
c. Congress
d. The CIA/FBI
e. The Pentagon

Would all agree on anything, let alone, issuing weapons to countries involved in 90% of the conflicts in the world. Furthermore, I find it harder to believe that such a great philanthropist as Charlie Reese would be the only one to truly step up and make these atrocities and abuses of state power known to the general public, so that we may overthrow our corrupted opressors.

Is it possible that something like this could be happening? Sure. However, I'd like to see more proof than an unsupported editorial by a "conservative," or should I say, hyper-conservative, ultra-right columnist.

Sorry, but without clear support for his claims, he's just as bad as any of the columnists that you may hate. Just because he's supporting your current conspiracy theory with some emotionally riling trash, doesn't mean he's telling any more of the truth than anyone else.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 19, 2003, 9:12 am

Kelgar were you born this stupid or is it something you work at. If you work at I applaud you because you are doing a hell of a job.

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » August 19, 2003, 9:34 am

Kelgar were you born this stupid or is it something you work at. If you work at I applaud you because you are doing a hell of a job.

This coming from someone who can't properly use punctuation or separate "thoughts" into non run-on sentences.

Oh the irony

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 19, 2003, 9:49 am

Kelgar wrote:
Kelgar were you born this stupid or is it something you work at. If you work at I applaud you because you are doing a hell of a job.
This coming from someone who can't properly use punctuation or separate "thoughts" into non run-on sentences.

Oh the irony

Well you got the point didnt you

. Still working on it I see

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » August 19, 2003, 9:51 am

Not to say that you or this Charlie Reese, whoever, are wrong.... But, I find it hard to believe that:

a. the President
b. the VP/Cabinet
c. Congress
d. The CIA/FBI
e. The Pentagon

Would all agree on anything, let alone, issuing weapons to countries involved in 90% of the conflicts in the world. Furthermore, I find it harder to believe that such a great philanthropist as Charlie Reese would be the only one to truly step up and make these atrocities and abuses of state power known to the general public, so that we may overthrow our corrupted opressors.

You'd be surprised how easy it is to shove your agenda down everyone else's throat via simply tossing the "anti or unamerican" label around after the 9/11 attacks.

I never claimed to agree with everything Charley Reese says. That's partially why I left out roughly 1/3 of the article.

Speaking of 9/11s, here's an interesting list of other events that happened on a 9/11.

September 11, 1919 - The US invades Honduras on behalf of the United Fruit Company to put down a popular revolt against a US puppet dictatorship that had been murdering, starving and torturing the populace at the behest of United Fruit for decades.

September 11, 1922 - The British Mandate of Palestine Begins. British guns murdered tens of thousands of Palestinian Arabs, displacing them from their homes and settlements that were then given to Jewish settlers. More than 1200 villages were totally destroyed by the British in collaboration with Jewish militants. Since that time, more than three million Palestinians have been made homeless, and more than 100,000 have been killed by British, American, and Israeli soldiers, to make room for Jewish settlers in contravention of international law, and in violation of no less than 30 directives of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

September 11, 1941 - Ground broken for construction of the Pentagon, with financial subsidy coming from many US corporations who were actively trading with the Nazis, some of them until 1945. Among those trading with the enemy was Prescott Bush, grandfather of G W Bush, who used Auschwitz slave labor at his Nazi steel manufacturing plant Consolidated Silesian Steel, of which he was managing director.

September 11, 1973 - Chile's elected President Salvador Allende is deposed in a CIA backed military coup, resulting in 3175 deaths on the first day of Augusto Pinochet's reign. During Pinochet's US Backed tenure, more than 100,000 people disappeared, and hundreds of thousands were tortured using tactics taught at Fort Benning Georgia's School of the Americas using the now declassified CIA Kubark Manual.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 19, 2003, 9:54 am

And on 9-11-2003 Kelgar is gonna suck my cock

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » August 19, 2003, 9:57 am

Uh huh. Can we stop with the fronting? We all know that you play catcher.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 19, 2003, 9:58 am

Kelgar wrote:Uh huh. Can we stop with the fronting? We all know that you play catcher.

hehehehheh

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » August 19, 2003, 10:10 am

Kelgar wrote:
Not to say that you or this Charlie Reese, whoever, are wrong.... But, I find it hard to believe that:

a. the President
b. the VP/Cabinet
c. Congress
d. The CIA/FBI
e. The Pentagon

Would all agree on anything, let alone, issuing weapons to countries involved in 90% of the conflicts in the world. Furthermore, I find it harder to believe that such a great philanthropist as Charlie Reese would be the only one to truly step up and make these atrocities and abuses of state power known to the general public, so that we may overthrow our corrupted opressors.
You'd be surprised how easy it is to shove your agenda down everyone else's throat via simply tossing the "anti or unamerican" label around after the 9/11 attacks.

First off, thanks for yet another conspiracy theorist, subjective and unsupported bit of irrelivent information. I posted my objection to the article because absolutely nothing in it was supported with any concrete fact or reference.

I never claimed to agree with everything Charley Reese says. That's partially why I left out roughly 1/3 of the article.

You left out 1/3 of the article because all of it is bunk. Even if he's got a point, he's not doing anything more than trying to incite the masses with propaganda.

Speaking of 9/11s, here's an interesting list of other events that happened on a 9/11.

September 11, 1919 - The US invades Honduras on behalf of the United Fruit Company to put down a popular revolt against a US puppet dictatorship that had been murdering, starving and torturing the populace at the behest of United Fruit for decades.

September 11, 1922 - The British Mandate of Palestine Begins. British guns murdered tens of thousands of Palestinian Arabs, displacing them from their homes and settlements that were then given to Jewish settlers. More than 1200 villages were totally destroyed by the British in collaboration with Jewish militants. Since that time, more than three million Palestinians have been made homeless, and more than 100,000 have been killed by British, American, and Israeli soldiers, to make room for Jewish settlers in contravention of international law, and in violation of no less than 30 directives of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

September 11, 1941 - Ground broken for construction of the Pentagon, with financial subsidy coming from many US corporations who were actively trading with the Nazis, some of them until 1945. Among those trading with the enemy was Prescott Bush, grandfather of G W Bush, who used Auschwitz slave labor at his Nazi steel manufacturing plant Consolidated Silesian Steel, of which he was managing director.

September 11, 1973 - Chile's elected President Salvador Allende is deposed in a CIA backed military coup, resulting in 3175 deaths on the first day of Augusto Pinochet's reign. During Pinochet's US Backed tenure, more than 100,000 people disappeared, and hundreds of thousands were tortured using tactics taught at Fort Benning Georgia's School of the Americas using the now declassified CIA Kubark Manual.

Thanks for making my point for me.

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » August 19, 2003, 12:00 pm

You left out 1/3 of the article because all of it is bunk. Even if he's got a point, he's not doing anything more than trying to incite the masses with propaganda.

Thanks for making my point for me.

Uh huh. Is there something wrong with being choosy on the points I agree with him about? I suppose you always either agree or disagree 100% on everything? I'm sorry, but absolutism is generally something reserved for people who are either ignorant or too damned lazy to contemplate shades of grey.

My list of 9/11 events is propoganda? Or simply things that your HS history class wasn't too inclined to teach? Sorry bub, but the US of A (along with the UK at the time it was still an empire) isn't exactly the shining beacon of virtue that you'd like to believe.

If that list was simply opinion, then your "it's just propoganda" assertion might hold water. I can say "Bush is a fucking lush who has been busted for DUI several times" or "Bush was convicted of drunk driving in a 1976 incident near his family's home in Kennebunkport, Maine and he pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of drunk driving and paid a $150 fine".

Check that list closely and tell me if anything there resembles an opinion.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » August 19, 2003, 12:09 pm

Kelgar wrote: If that list was simply opinion, then your "it's just propoganda" assertion might hold water. I can say "Bush is a fucking lush who has been busted for DUI several times" or "Bush was convicted of drunk driving in a 1976 incident near his family's home in Kennebunkport, Maine and he pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of drunk driving and paid a $150 fine".

Check that list closely and tell me if anything there resembles an opinion.

One of those statements is considered objective journalism. The other is usually considered political mudslinging. Both are ways of reporting the same fact, however, the tone and implications suggested in one lead to a reasonable person discounting most of the fact as opinion, and discrediting the reporter.

You can be selective in your acceptance of his writings all you wish, however, be careful what you put stock in, because a guy like 'ol Charlie there doesn't get much in the way of journalistic kudos.

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » August 19, 2003, 12:21 pm

You can be selective in your acceptance of his writings all you wish, however, be careful what you put stock in, because a guy like 'ol Charlie there doesn't get much in the way of journalistic kudos.

FYI, that list wasn't written by Charley Reese. On the topic of journalistic kudos, how many people out there (aside from Voronwe) can name a few Pulitzer Prize or Project Censored award winners off the top of their head without looking it up?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 19, 2003, 12:21 pm

"You can be selective in your acceptance of his writings all you wish, however, be careful what you put stock in, because a guy like 'ol Charlie there doesn't get much in the way of journalistic kudos."

But But he writes for the Orlando Sentinal!

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » August 19, 2003, 12:32 pm

But But he writes for the Orlando Sentinal!

He's also nationally sindicated, but little details such as that one aren't really worth noting are they?

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » August 19, 2003, 12:35 pm

Kelgar wrote:
You can be selective in your acceptance of his writings all you wish, however, be careful what you put stock in, because a guy like 'ol Charlie there doesn't get much in the way of journalistic kudos.
FYI, that list wasn't written by Charley Reese. On the topic of journalistic kudos, how many people out there (aside from Voronwe) can name a few Pulitzer Prize or Project Censored award winners off the top of their head without looking it up?

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know of any specific Pulitzer prize winning journalists off the top of my head. However, that does not discount me from suggesting when suggestive reporting is being labeled as journalistic fact.

Your list, while stating fact, was presented and slanted as anti-american propaganda, possibly suggesting that the attack of 9/11/2001 was deserved because of the US/British atrocities of that particular day in history.

While I don't necesarily argue the facts in the article, or in your own retort, I do state that without backing up facts with credible sources, leads to serious doubts as to the validity of the entire statement should one point be found to be untrue or drastically slanted.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » August 19, 2003, 12:36 pm

Kelgar wrote:
But But he writes for the Orlando Sentinal!
He's also nationally sindicated, but little details such as that one aren't really worth noting are they?

So is Art Bell.

Fizzlewhip · Post by **Fizzlewhip** » August 19, 2003, 12:44 pm

Just a few uestions really

1. How much of the defense budget is spent on the pay of troops?
2. How much of the defense budget is spent on the Housing, or the improvement of housing of troops
3. How much of the defense budget is spent on things like BAQ (Basic Allowance for Quarters) for married troops?
4. How much of the defense budget is spent on things like the GI Bill, and College fund? (Think...25-50K per person who subscribes to this).
5. How much of the defense budget is spent on training, for the large turnover that is in the military.
6. How much of the defense budget is spent on replacement parts for machinery.
7. How much of the defense budget is spent on food for the troops.
8. How much of the defense budget is spent on the contractors, that either teach college courses, provide for health and welfare, assist or take the place of the military doctors, dentists, lawyers.
9. How much is spent on development of new technologies.
10. How much is spent on the development of new medicines.

Seriously. Anyone know how much?

Denadeb · Post by **Denadeb** » August 19, 2003, 1:24 pm

(spending in Billions )

FY03
Military Personnel 93.4
Operations & Maintenance 113.6
Procurement 70.0
RDT&E 56.8
Military Construction 6.3
Family Housing 4.2
Other DoD Programs* 17.3
Misc. Other 3.1
TOTAL (051) 364.6

FY04
Military Personnel 98.6
Operations & Maintenance 117.0
Procurement 72.7
RDT&E 61.8
Military Construction 5.0
Family Housing 4.0
Other DoD Programs* 17.9
Misc. Other 2.8
TOTAL (051) 379.9

Notes: *This is a new Appropriation Title that includes: Defense Health Program, Inspector General, and Drug Interdiction (all previously included in the O&M account), and; Chemical Agents & Munitons Destruction, Army (which was previously included in the Procurement account).

Totals may not add up due to rounding.

FY04 Requested / Percentage of total

Military Personnel 98.6 / 26.0%
Operations & Maintenance 117.0 / 30.8%
Procurement 72.7 / 19.1%
RDT&E 61.8 / 16.3%
Military Construction 5.0 / 1.3%
Family Housing 4.0 / 1.1%
Other DoD Programs* 17.9 / 4.7%
Misc. Other 2.8 / 0.7%
TOTAL (051) 379.9

FY03 / FY04

Army 90.7 / 93.7
Navy/Marine Corps 111.1 / 114.6
Air Force 108.0 / 113.7
Defense Wide* 54.9 / 57.9
TOTAL (051)* 364.6 / 379.9

Notes: *Includes the Defense Health Program

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » August 19, 2003, 1:34 pm

http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy200 ... efense.pdf

Ha ha. Looks like Denadeb beat me to it.