Destruction and looting of priceless artifacts in Iraq

[Spangaloid_PE]

Not even freaking worth it.
You have been painting yourself as a moron this entire thread.

it was a question...i dun see what was stupid about it.

[Lalanae]

I'm seeing a lot of a priori assumptions that oil or human life has to be a less important issue, if art/history/culture is considered an important issue. That has no logical basis. Silly!

[Spangaloid_PE]

History and Culture are just as important as Oil.

[Lalanae]

History and Culture are just as important as Oil.

Are you quoting that for my benefit? If so, Kluden's statement agrees with what I just said...

[Sabek]

Not even freaking worth it.
You have been painting yourself as a moron this entire thread.

it was a question...i dun see what was stupid about it.

Are you saying with 250k soldiers there that securing the oil fields depleted the numbers to a point where securing the museum was out of their reach?

I am not saying securing the oil fields was a bad idea. They are vital to Iraq's ability rebuild, but to blow off other parts of the countries "treasures" is ignorant.

[Spangaloid_PE]

Not even freaking worth it.
You have been painting yourself as a moron this entire thread.

it was a question...i dun see what was stupid about it.

Are you saying with 250k soldiers there that securing the oil fields depleted the numbers to a point where securing the museum was out of their reach?

250 thousand soldiers weren't in Baghdad when it was secured. securing the museum was more than likely not apart of the mission to make Baghdad a safe place.

[Sabek]

Thus the reason folks are saying the US failed in that aspect.

[Spangaloid_PE]

History and Culture are just as important as Oil.

Are you quoting that for my benefit? If so, Kluden's statement agrees with what I just said...

no...i quoted it so people would understand why i asked the question in an earlier post.

[Vetiria]

Not even freaking worth it.
You have been painting yourself as a moron this entire thread.

Surely, you don't mean just this thread.

[Kluden]

Firstly, I'm not exactly sure why you are telling me soldiers get to pay taxes and vote too...I figured by the necessity for them to be U.S. citizens would indicate their rights. But anyhoo, not sure if that was meant to smite me or not...

But on to the "running out of oil" thing...well...if you aren't suggesting the oil would have run out...then who gives a shit when we got to the wells to secure them for our use...I mean Iraq's future use?

And maybe I said it a little wrong in my last post. I personally feel history and culture are more important than oil.

history and culture is great, but how can you say it's just as important as oil?

Easily. To me, it is that History and Culture are an infinate thing. An idealogy and recorded fact of what happened and what is happening. History and Culture are forever. Oil is a finite material. It has no value in what we are. One day, it will be gone. But the truth between the both of them is that History and Culture will still be around when Oil is forgotten. The only problem being, items that were once in Iraq's museums...will now be forgotten thanks to someone's oversite.

I hope that answers your question.

[Spangaloid_PE]

Firstly, I'm not exactly sure why you are telling me soldiers get to pay taxes and vote too...I figured by the necessity for them to be U.S. citizens would indicate their rights. But anyhoo, not sure if that was meant to smite me or not...

the way you were telling me that you pay taxes and vote for the president made it seem to me, that you thought i wasn't one....just wanted to let you know that soldiers in the us army pay taxes and vote for the president since i am one.

and you don't have to be a US citizen to be in the US army. the dude that lived accross the hall from me in schofield was canadian and one of my poker playing buddies was korean. they weren't US citizens. just some examples.

[Fizzlewhip]

A laurel is not always placed upon the head. Over it, surely. Example, been to a good horse race? The winning horse gets a laurel (A wreath, as you said) placed over his head, on his shoulders. The fact that I used laurel instead of mantle was just a smart-ass's play on words, one you apparently got as you used the same example at the bottom of your statement. Which makes you a dick.

Nope, If you can read (which apparently you can't) I stated it goes on your HEAD. However, I will concede that there are other places which a laurel is used. And by the way, the laurel is placed on the withers. A spot above the shoulders where the neck meets them.

Next, you sir make me laugh. Your childish knowledge of warfare and battlefield tactics astounds even me.
You see, a Platoon (lets say 30) breaks off from his unit to guard artifacts that out vales and way out dates the Mona Lisa, the Burial casket of Tut, The dead sea scrolls.
So, that unit is 70 men strong now, roughly a third weaker, right?

Wow. I see. You were in the military right? aaaah. Unless you were, and unless you actually did some war games, then I think you are being a typical armchair general.

Well, funny that, you see, this unit is here with an Army, see.
Allow me to explain. OUR Army consists of tens of thousands of soldiers.
So allow us to half that and stipulate from there, mmmkay?
5000 soldiers go into Iraq to get big bad Saddam, following me puppet boy?
Now, 30 are assigned to watch a Museum, k?
That still leaves *gasp* 4970 Soldiers with which to complete other objectives! OMFG!
Yet somehow, remedial math manages to escape you sir.
30 from 5000 is not 1/3 of your fighting force.

Hey moron child. 30 TIMES x (lets just use 20) is 600. Not 30. Fucking poster child for bonehead math. 600 is 12%. And that is just 20 places. How many places would the us had to guard to make you happy? Just one? Then your analogy is correct. However, there are hundreds of places in Baghdad alone that meet the criteria of "cultural" repositories. How many troops would you need to divert from combat missions to protect these?

Also consider you next few statements. 30 against a company of Iraqi rebublic guard! Wait, if there was republic guard near the museum, why didn't the military take them out, so they would not later be flanked?
Answer: They did.

And if they had bombed near the museums you would have been screaming about endangering the art. Guess what monkeytard. They did not bomb near the museums, mosques or libraries.

There was no threat aside from the thieves, and that measure 30 soldiers I believ could have made a serious deterent.

If the looting had occurred in places we had control of, then yes, the 30 could have and would have made a difference. Notice I said timing in my posts? Ie, while trying to mop up resistance is not a good time? Or do you lack reading comprehension skills. No where in my posts do I disagree that the stuff should have been safeguarded. I disagree that they could have done it sooner.

Again, monkeyboy. The looting occurred while the units were mopping up the resistance. Is it that hard for you to comprehend? Or is it true that you are that fucking dense?

And, again, I was speaking of the first city as a reference to the city built by Darius the First of Mesopotamia, the one you aptly called Uruk.

Negative. You refer to Baghdad by inferrence.

By taking a thief's life, they would have preserved the beauty of the first city and enable the world to still view it

. This was in reference to looting in Baghdad. However the first city is 250Km. Since you are mathematically challenged, I will do the math for you. That is about 150 miles south. Now, if what you meant is the art was transported to Baghdad, and preserving the beauty of the first city was referring to the artwork, then I apologize and can see what you mean. Your writing was unclear. Sorry for being a nitpicker.

I do not disagree that the priorities should have been the Iraqi people, then the oil, then the museums and hospitals, but I believe this should have been coordinated better.

Perhaps the one thing we agree on.

However sir, while intelligent to be sure, you are still dense as hell. This could have been prevented if our administration cared in the least. Another example why Bush is not being re-elected.

How anyone with glaring mathematical, logical, military, and historical errors can call anyone dense is beyond me. However, thank you for the backhanded compliment. You yourself are not too stupid. As for your statement about the Bush administration not caring, not sure if I agree. On the one hand you have Bush, who would support your statement by his actions, and lack of culture to boot! On the other hand, you have his cultural advisors that quit (see previous link in previous post).

And I too hope Dubya doesn't get re-elected either.

Oh and just to share the blame, the brits didn't start getting a handle on looting till recently either.

[Kluden]

If I said it in a demeaning tone...that's just me being a smart ass. But the reason I put it that way, was to create a connection from me to the administration...and why I get to judge them. It is the duty of my position as a citizen to judge my governments' decisions. Which lead into my next point in that post....

and you don't have to be a US citizen to be in the US army. the dude that lived accross the hall from me in schofield was canadian and one of my poker playing buddies was korean. they weren't US citizens. just some examples.

Well, you learn something new everyday. That does not make much sense to me to let foreigners into our army...but that is not my decision...it goes back to the whole "trusted" group I voted/didn't vote for.

[Fizzlewhip]

and you don't have to be a US citizen to be in the US army. the dude that lived accross the hall from me in schofield was canadian and one of my poker playing buddies was korean. they weren't US citizens. just some examples.

Well, you learn something new everyday. That does not make much sense to me to let foreigners into our army...but that is not my decision...it goes back to the whole "trusted" group I voted/didn't vote for.

yep. it is a way to get citizenship faster:

The military does provide a faster route to citizenship. Legal permanent residents may become U.S. citizens after serving in the military for three years; the wait for civilians is five years. But their service does not exempt them from civics and English proficiency tests or immigration fees.

http://www.redding.com/newsarchive/2002 ... r023.shtml

What is ironic, is that this tends to produce better informed, and better educated (at least when it comes to government) than our public school systems.

[Kluden]

In all seriousness...that is one of the "coolest" facts I've learned about my country in a while. It is nice to see the U.S. offering incentives beyond college tuition to boulster our military forces...and civically educated people.

thanks for the link...but why would Canadian's want to come to America? Our coin dollar system does not work!

[Acies]

God, here we go.

A laurel is not always placed upon the head. Over it, surely. Example, been to a good horse race? The winning horse gets a laurel (A wreath, as you said) placed over his head, on his shoulders. The fact that I used laurel instead of mantle was just a smart-ass's play on words, one you apparently got as you used the same example at the bottom of your statement. Which makes you a dick.

Nope, If you can read (which apparently you can't) I stated it goes on your HEAD. However, I will concede that there are other places which a laurel is used. And by the way, the laurel is placed on the withers. A spot above the shoulders where the neck meets them.

And I stated it can go elsewhere. Thank you for conceading the point after arguing it for one sentance and contradicting yourself the next. That also, makes you a dick. Thanks for the info of withers. Never heard of it, but granted there is shit I do not know, like withers.

Next, you sir make me laugh. Your childish knowledge of warfare and battlefield tactics astounds even me.
You see, a Platoon (lets say 30) breaks off from his unit to guard artifacts that out vales and way out dates the Mona Lisa, the Burial casket of Tut, The dead sea scrolls.
So, that unit is 70 men strong now, roughly a third weaker, right?

Wow. I see. You were in the military right? aaaah. Unless you were, and unless you actually did some war games, then I think you are being a typical armchair general.

Actually, I do recreational war games once a month. Also, I have several friends who are either military or ex-military, and an uncle who is serving active duty right now, and guess what? He leads those troops, being as though he is a O-5 in the Marines, which, to you (unless you YOURSELF happen to be something other than an armchair general) would be Lieutenant Colonel.

Well, funny that, you see, this unit is here with an Army, see.
Allow me to explain. OUR Army consists of tens of thousands of soldiers.
So allow us to half that and stipulate from there, mmmkay?
5000 soldiers go into Iraq to get big bad Saddam, following me puppet boy?
Now, 30 are assigned to watch a Museum, k?
That still leaves *gasp* 4970 Soldiers with which to complete other objectives! OMFG!
Yet somehow, remedial math manages to escape you sir.
30 from 5000 is not 1/3 of your fighting force.

Hey moron child. 30 TIMES x (lets just use 20) is 600. Not 30. Fucking poster child for bonehead math. 600 is 12%. And that is just 20 places. How many places would the us had to guard to make you happy? Just one? Then your analogy is correct. However, there are hundreds of places in Baghdad alone that meet the criteria of "cultural" repositories. How many troops would you need to divert from combat missions to protect these?

Okay, I was speaking SOLELY of the Museum, which if you had used your left brain at all, you would understand. You are making these references now to protecting other places? I never made these, and you just bust out with it like it was part of some previous equation, which it was not.

Also consider you next few statements. 30 against a company of Iraqi rebublic guard! Wait, if there was republic guard near the museum, why didn't the military take them out, so they would not later be flanked?
Answer: They did.

And if they had bombed near the museums you would have been screaming about endangering the art. Guess what monkeytard. They did not bomb near the museums, mosques or libraries.

Bombs? Who said shit about Bombs? You need bombs to secure an area now, or to march through and kill any hostiles? Jesus Christ, and you are calling ME and armchair general?

There was no threat aside from the thieves, and that measure 30 soldiers I believ could have made a serious deterent.

If the looting had occurred in places we had control of, then yes, the 30 could have and would have made a difference. Notice I said timing in my posts? Ie, while trying to mop up resistance is not a good time? Or do you lack reading comprehension skills. No where in my posts do I disagree that the stuff should have been safeguarded. I disagree that they could have done it sooner.

Again, monkeyboy. The looting occurred while the units were mopping up the resistance. Is it that hard for you to comprehend? Or is it true that you are that fucking dense?

One, looting occured in places we did not have control of while our forces were looting Saddam's palaces themselves. Two, they could have done it sooner by posting some men there to enforce the security of said artifacts on the way through.
Three, mop up=finish off, as in the enemy is weak and wounded, ready for the coup de grace. So we need ALL of our tens of thousands of soldiers to mop up a wounded military that surrendered more than they fought that was substandard to begin with?

And, again, I was speaking of the first city as a reference to the city built by Darius the First of Mesopotamia, the one you aptly called Uruk.

Negative. You refer to Baghdad by inferrence.

By taking a thief's life, they would have preserved the beauty of the first city and enable the world to still view it

.

This was in reference to looting in Baghdad. However the first city is 250Km. Since you are mathematically challenged, I will do the math for you. That is about 150 miles south. Now, if what you meant is the art was transported to Baghdad, and preserving the beauty of the first city was referring to the artwork, then I apologize and can see what you mean. Your writing was unclear. Sorry for being a nitpicker.

Exactly, sorry, looking back I could have made that more clear.

I do not disagree that the priorities should have been the Iraqi people, then the oil, then the museums and hospitals, but I believe this should have been coordinated better.

Perhaps the one thing we agree on.

However sir, while intelligent to be sure, you are still dense as hell. This could have been prevented if our administration cared in the least. Another example why Bush is not being re-elected.

How anyone with glaring mathematical, logical, military, and historical errors can call anyone dense is beyond me. However, thank you for the backhanded compliment. You yourself are not too stupid. As for your statement about the Bush administration not caring, not sure if I agree. On the one hand you have Bush, who would support your statement by his actions, and lack of culture to boot! On the other hand, you have his cultural advisors that quit (see previous link in previous post).

And I too hope Dubya doesn't get re-elected either.

Oh and just to share the blame, the brits didn't start getting a handle on looting till recently either.

Okay, I tried to time my responses without personal attacks in this post, but the above is just really too much. I explained my mathematical logic, and it does make sense, perhaps to everyone but you who loves to change the equations to suit you. Logic? Hell, I am not the one changing numbers in the arguement to prove some deluded point that we did what we could. As for my historical errors, I bet you did not even know who Darius the First is until I made mention of him and you looked him up. My historical info is on target, as if yours, we just happen to really be taking about apples and oranges. It was a misunderstanding, but you still fail to grasp that I feel. As for the underhanded compliment, allow me to rectify.
I think that really, we are arguing sematics that no one other than ourselves give a shit about, and we should stop.

I am gonna mourn the lost of pieces of human history, and envy the private collectors that will get these items whom I wish I could kill.

[Fizzlewhip]

God you are fucking stupid.

I can see where you became confused. You seem to have a problem with algebra, and more imporatantly, ratios. You see, taking the numbers I used, 30/100 (30 troops on guard, 100 troops in a company), and applying a variable, called X, you come up with the following: 30 X/100 X. Where X is the number of sites that need guarding. Note, if you multiply the guards, you must also multply thier sources (hope I am not going to fast for you here). So, since I did not follow your warped logic that there is only one place that needed protecting from looting (hmmm didn't a bank get robbed too?), you became confused. Easy mistake.

Okay, I tried to time my responses without personal attacks in this post, but the above is just really too much

Hypocrite. Cited for your reference:

which if you had used your left brain at all

That also, makes you a dick

Those two statements alone blow away your "holier than thou" attitude, fucking cretin.

As for your statement, No, I am not, nor was I an officer. However, I served 10 years, on 8 different deployments, to 7 different countries. I spent almost 7 of those years in the field, performing my missions, and returning safely, sometimes without my buddies. I saw what happens when even one person does not do their jobs. Now imagine taking away 30.

I was not a recreational fucking war gamer.

Looting. Guess what. The troops that looted were reprimanded, and the items were returned to the iraqi government. Guess what else. Those fucking palaces were still on the outskirts of Baghdad, and since we weren't at the museum yet, it would fucking hard to guard them, now wouldn't it.

Also thanks for contradicting yourself. Here, I will point it out for you, since you seem to be a bit mentally challenged.

One, looting occured in places we did not have control of while our forces were looting Saddam's palaces themselves.

So here you admit the looting occurred outside of our area of influence.

Two, they could have done it sooner by posting some men there to enforce the security of said artifacts on the way through.

How can we fucking post guards on our way through, if we weren't there yet moron?

As for your inferrence that I didn't know who Darius the I was, that is a bit off target. You don't know me, nor my education. Making generalizations on a forum such as this only shows your ignorance. I can sort of see where you would assume that Darius had build the first city of Uruk, since his empire spanned from Persia to the west. To throw it back in your face, and use your insult on you (I have to denote this, else you would assume I did it on accident and thus wound me again by calling me a dick!) I would bet you didn't even know what the city of Uruk was before I posted it here.

I am gonna mourn the lost of pieces of human history, and envy the private collectors that will get these items whom I wish I could kill.

Every once in a while you post something that makes me think you aren't that bad of a person.

[Arborealus]

Agreeably horrible that these items were looted...

We surely could have guarded it, But at the cost of how many lives? Easy to second guess that resistance "might" have been minimal...then again if we park a platoon with Armour on it and the Republican Guard was hangin nearby voila you just made the museum a military target and I'm thinking the other fellows wouldn't have thought "Oh but we shouldn't open fire on the museum"...And it certainly would have made an attractive car bomb (ala Lebanon) target...in which case most of this priceless history would have been powder now...It is not lost to humanity forever at the moment might take a while to resurface but it will...

Our government didn't think of guarding it...Well how many of you folks sent them cautionary letters regarding potential looting?...I honestly didn't think about it at all...Hell, there hasn't been that much looting of in any military campaign I can think of by the city's own inhabitants...Looting in these situations is more commonly carried out by invading forces (for example Iraq's extensive looting in Kuwait)...

Nor did I think of the potential for a Kelly's Hero's caper by professional thieves to lift this much human history...I would have thought banks gold reserves etc much more likely targets...

I'm feel a large percentage of the more significant pieces will be recovered...bit tough to fence Hammurabi's Code etc...and it would be hard to move them out of country at the moment...Also the market for pieces like these is a bit smaller than say the market for gold and jewels, and the big players are known and will be watched closely...Though it is certain some, maybe most will be lost...

Choosing one human life versus the loss of a priceless piece of history...Think I'll take the life thanks...These are things folks...I'm sure most of these pieces are documented in multiple texts and scholarly works...One Human Life (American Soldier, Iraqi Soldier, Innocent Bystander) > all of history thanks...

[Kelshara]

You guys need to wake up here.. it is not just about the musem.

1. Tons of other places got robbed including every hospital and lots of private homes.
2. It is really irrelevant to claim something like "One Coalition soldier's life > History" since the Geneva convention requires you to keep law and order when you have invaded a country. You know, the convention that Bush keeps running his mouth about other people breaking?

If you are not ready to finish the job and clean up the mess don't get into the fucking kitchen.

[Kluden]

I will say this on your last comment about the "documented" history that we still have. I have seen it in movies, I have seen it in magazines, I have seen it in brochures, and I have seen it in the encyclopedia, BUT, until I saw the Hope Diamond in person...it truly was no big deal to me.

I like to think I'm like most people, in that pictures are great for the memory of the real thing. Being there, standing next to something, touching a piece of history (so to speak), is leaps and bounds above the picture you can look up on the internet. And that is why I feel so strongly about protecting priceless original pieces of our past. [/quote]

[Silvarel Mistmoon]

I personally think the blame is being put in the wrong place. Thieves did this, they didn't have to do it but they chose to do it. If you want to give them an excuse for doing it then place it on their governments head for how they treated the people of Iraq.

I don't think our military felt completely secure knowing that at any moment civilians might turn out to be more enemies hiding themselves in civilian clothing. Maybe that is why they didn't leave a small amount of men at the museums.

[Pherr the Dorf]

history and culture is great, but how can you say it's just as important as oil?

Spang you just took a headlong leap over the line of stupidity with that little nugget of ignorance.

please explain

I am speechless, but you Sir, are a twit

[Arborealus]

You guys need to wake up here.. it is not just about the musem.

This thread was specifically about "priceless artifacts" not banks etc...

Art 147 applies to occupied territories not disputed territory...at the point we settle into a a force of occupation we are responsible for maintaining Law and Order...Baghdad was very much disputed territory at the time the Museum was looted...Being in Iraq does not oblige us to protect every square inch of the country just those that we have secured.

And I believe the ICRC are the ones talking about violations of the Geneva Convention in re prisoner handling, failure to allow ICRC representatives access to prisoners of war, abusing GC "Safe Zones" by occupying and exploiting them militarily...
( http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo. ... id=1716883 )