Question for people who hate Clinton and like Bush

Millie · Post by **Millie** » March 28, 2003, 2:01 am

Metanis wrote:
kyoukan type-R wrote:Really? because to me it sounded like you were just irrationally disagreeing because you are a partisan automatron incapable of thinking for yourself.
/sarcasm on

Hmmmm, thinking for yourself? You Liberals give me such convincing role models.

/sarcasm off

I'll repeat myself: will you EVER bother to respond to our arguments with rational arguments of your own? With facts? With numbers? With logic? With anything other than half-assed personal flames? We're still waiting.

Millie · Post by **Millie** » March 28, 2003, 2:04 am

Silvarel Mistmoon wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but the U.S. is not a fascist country, or even a military state. We, as citizens, have the right not to approve blindly of everything our government is doing. (Please Read: The Bill of Rights if you disagree). We're not a nation of Marines, and we aren't second-class citizens in the presence of Marines. We don't have to defer to their wishes
Yes we as citizens have those rights, you missed the point, those in the military at the time didn't appreciate Americans standing on foreign soil protesting them it is insulting IMO and that fact he couldn't stand the sight of thier uniforms and at the same time these young men would defend him because it is their duty. It's a insult to their parents that he was disgusted with the uniforms that their sons wear proudly.

We're talking about two completely different topics here. I was responding to someone's earlier insinuation that Marines are somehow superior to the rest of us, and that not blindly following orders like a good little Marine makes someone 'un-American.'

You obviously got off on the wrong tangent. You're responding to an argument I wasn't even making.

Silvarel Mistmoon · Post by **Silvarel Mistmoon** » March 28, 2003, 11:53 am

Sorry Millie when I read this quote it was witha quate from me so I assumed you speaking to me.

I haven't figured out how to do the double quote thingy yet.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » March 28, 2003, 12:05 pm

Millie wrote:
Silvarel Mistmoon wrote:Clinton did dodge the draft and he protested against the military on foreign soil.
He made it clear he was anti military. He even wanted the Marines at the White House to be dressed in Civies and no saluting. That is a insult to a Marine.
I hate to break it to you, but the U.S. is not a fascist country, or even a military state. We, as citizens, have the right not to approve blindly of everything our government is doing. (Please Read: The Bill of Rights if you disagree). We're not a nation of Marines, and we aren't second-class citizens in the presence of Marines. We don't have to defer to their wishes.

Interesting statement their Mille While I agree you dont have to Kiss the Marines ass because we are not 2nd class citizens. I think a little respect to them is in order seeing that Bill of Rights you hold so Precious is protected by those said Marines.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » March 28, 2003, 12:40 pm

I really hate it when people tell me what to feel or how I should feel towards someone or something. That has just always bothered me.

Respect is earned. When I see a soldier, I don't automatically run up and kiss thier ass. Certianly they hold a certian amount of respect, but so does anyone in uniform or civil service. In times of war, like right now for instance, I strike up conversation whenever I can just to get their feelings and why they joined and what-not. They get a handshake and a smile but only because I have empathy for their situation. Virtually everyone in the military use it as a means to an end. Usually this is money for college. Very few people join the military with the hopes of going off to fight out latest enemy and possibly die in a foregin land. That's just not true. All my friends are "just doing their time". They are just like me, only in the military. If I was in the military, I would be over there fighting too. I'd be fulfilling my end of the contract I agreed to. Besides, have you ever met a happy Vetern? I'm hard pressed to think of any. I went to my grandfather's WWII reunion, and all everyone did was talk about how much the government is fucking them all in one way or another. There was OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of head nodding and long pauses of uncomfortable silence. Those men were a real wake-up call to me and definately make me wonder where our country places it's priorieties.

The way everyone enforces some kind of super patriotisim on the everyday soldier makes me wonder if these people have any contact with any 19 year olds in today's military.

Denadeb · Post by **Denadeb** » March 28, 2003, 10:21 pm

I have contact with many of them everyday but then again they work for me.

Silvarel Mistmoon · Post by **Silvarel Mistmoon** » March 28, 2003, 10:34 pm

Respect is earned. When I see a soldier, I don't automatically run up and kiss thier ass. Certianly they hold a certian amount of respect, but so does anyone in uniform or civil service. In times of war, like right now for instance, I strike up conversation whenever I can just to get their feelings and why they joined and what-not. They get a handshake and a smile but only because I have empathy for their situation. Virtually everyone in the military use it as a means to an end. Usually this is money for college. Very few people join the military with the hopes of going off to fight out latest enemy and possibly die in a foregin land. That's just not true. All my friends are "just doing their time". They are just like me, only in the military. If I was in the military, I would be over there fighting too. I'd be fulfilling my end of the contract I agreed to. Besides, have you ever met a happy Vetern? I'm hard pressed to think of any. I went to my grandfather's WWII reunion, and all everyone did was talk about how much the government is fucking them all in one way or another. There was OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of head nodding and long pauses of uncomfortable silence. Those men were a real wake-up call to me and definately make me wonder where our country places it's priorieties.

The way everyone enforces some kind of super patriotisim on the everyday soldier makes me wonder if these people have any contact with any 19 year olds in today's military.

I agree that men and women do not join to go off and fight except maybe for times like these or right after 9/11. There will be people that will sign up to fight at times like those.
Happy Vets? Yes I have met happy Vets, did they enjoy the wars no they didn't but they aren't all sitting around slobbering on themselves either.
Vets up set and bitching about the government hell yeah, the last admin did so much for the Vets, they took away a lot of disability programs. (geesh I cant think of the correct words today! It's age! )

War is war its ugly plain and simple. No matter what the cause of the war its ugly.

I grew up around military bases and my husband was in the Navy for 9 years, I still have close friends in the military or wives of men in.

Military people are human, that is it, not perfect but not all bad either.
You either feel the respect for them or you don't it's not something you can be made to do.

Millie · Post by **Millie** » March 29, 2003, 3:14 am

Cartalas wrote:
Millie wrote:
Silvarel Mistmoon wrote:Clinton did dodge the draft and he protested against the military on foreign soil.
He made it clear he was anti military. He even wanted the Marines at the White House to be dressed in Civies and no saluting. That is a insult to a Marine.
I hate to break it to you, but the U.S. is not a fascist country, or even a military state. We, as citizens, have the right not to approve blindly of everything our government is doing. (Please Read: The Bill of Rights if you disagree). We're not a nation of Marines, and we aren't second-class citizens in the presence of Marines. We don't have to defer to their wishes.

Interesting statement their Mille While I agree you dont have to Kiss the Marines ass because we are not 2nd class citizens. I think a little respect to them is in order seeing that Bill of Rights you hold so Precious is protected by those said Marines.

I never said I don't respect Marines in general. I respect the men and women of the armed services, and I respect their role in our country. But I sure as fuck don't respect Marines who force their opinions and beliefs upon me, as though I were their inferior.

Millie · Post by **Millie** » March 29, 2003, 3:17 am

Silvarel Mistmoon wrote:...the last admin did so much for the Vets, they took away a lot of disability programs

Actually, it's our current Bush administration that's cut funding and support for many Veterans' programs. Clinton had nothing to do with it, and stop passing the buck over to his terms in office.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » March 29, 2003, 9:32 am

I am a happy vet. I enjoyed every year I was in service. It was a great experience for me. Almost everyone I knew in the Navy joined for the nuclear training for the post military career, or electrical training, computer training etc. If you get your journeymans license, your military experience can really be a good jumping point for a person's career after service. I really did not run into too many people that joined "just for college money". You'd be surprised how many "to serve my country" answers you'll get when you ask people, but lots of times that translates into "I just had to get out of that trailer park". It's a welcome status change for some people, and believe it or not, a positive move up the social ladder.

Me? my best friend and I both joined at the same time, him to get medical training, and me for the pilot training for a post commercial career. I only ran into one or two nutballs that joined for the chance of killing some towel heads.

One reason I enjoyed the military so much is because enlisted persons merit is color blind. In the navy, you take a test, the review board has no idea what color you are. You either succeed or fail based solely on your own achievements and effort. You have no one to blame but yourself. There is no "man" holding you down, or no "negros and mexicans" taking all the good jobs from you. If you are a dirtbag and a failure, look in the mirror and point your finger thataway.

I am done, hope you enjoy tangents.

Denadeb · Post by **Denadeb** » March 29, 2003, 4:44 pm

If you are a dirtbag and a failure, look in the mirror and point your finger thataway.

Sorry Krimson but the new politicly correct word is earthsack. Wouldn't want to affend anyone.

The military isn't for everyone thats for sure but you get out of it what you put in. You work hard and bust your ass day in and day out and you can go very far.

Silvarel Mistmoon · Post by **Silvarel Mistmoon** » March 29, 2003, 11:09 pm

No Millie you are wrong, it Was Clintons office that cut and cut. I know because of being married to a vet and being the daughter of a vet and sister to a vet. It was the Clinton admin that did the cutting, Bush was not in office when happened.
I am not going continue to argue the point with you when I know first hand whos admin did it while they were in office.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 29, 2003, 11:15 pm

Silvarel Mistmoon wrote:No Millie you are wrong, it Was Clintons office that cut and cut. I know because of being married to a vet and being the daughter of a vet and sister to a vet. It was the Clinton admin that did the cutting, Bush was not in office when happened.
I am not going continue to argue the point with you when I know first hand whos admin did it while they were in office.

Congress controls budget resolutions spending like that.

http://capwiz.com/dav/issues/alert/?ale ... 76&type=CU

House Budget Resolution Will Slash $9.7 Billion from Veterans Medical Care and $15 Billion from Disability Compensation and Other Benefit Programs
Write the Speaker of the House of Representatives to express your opposition today

By a vote along party lines, the majority members of the House Budget Committee passed and reported for a vote by the House a budget resolution that would cut $844 million from veterans’ medical care next year and $9.7 billion over the next 10 years. In addition, the budget resolution would cut $15 billion from the disability compensation and other benefit programs over the next 10 years. The House leadership are pushing these cuts to offset the cost of the President’s $1.57 trillion tax reduction plan. Send an e-mail to the Speaker of the House today. A vote on this resolution by the entire House membership could come as early as Wednesday, March 19, 2003. Please enter your zip code in the box provided, and send the prepared e-mail message today!

Honest to christ at least try and learn a little about how your own government works. Look you have foreigners educating you about it.

Fucking sad.

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » March 29, 2003, 11:55 pm

If you know someone that joined the military just to go to war or get in a fire fight. They are a fucking moron.

Something else that bothers me. Theres this thing they say " Die for your country." Fuck that. I will try my damndest to make the other poor fool die for his country. No one signed up to join to Die. They joined to preserve what we do have.

Silvarel Mistmoon · Post by **Silvarel Mistmoon** » March 30, 2003, 12:55 pm

Yeah right I just remember it wrong, it was Congress, it was all them. RIGHTTTT.

Millie · Post by **Millie** » March 30, 2003, 9:14 pm

Silvarel Mistmoon wrote:Yeah right I just remember it wrong, it was Congress, it was all them. RIGHTTTT.

I pray to God you're not as stupid as you sound.

Mezzmor · Post by **Mezzmor** » April 4, 2003, 12:01 pm

kyoukan type-R wrote:There are about 500 books and 50,000 websites written about clinton from conservative morons blaming him from everything from 9/11 to AIDS. Rush Limbaugh built a career from fatass loudmouthed nobody to fatass loudmothed celebrity 100% based solely around ranting about Clinton. You aren't seriously this blind?

Rush Limbaugh's career didn't depend on Bill Clinton. He was already at the top during the last 2 years on Bush 41's administration. Rush's show became prominent not for his Clinton bashing but for his relentless satirical commentary pointed at high profile democrats in the house and senate, and against advocacy groups such as PETA, homeless groups, and environmentalist groups. (anyone remember the homeless updates or that timber update)

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » April 4, 2003, 5:10 pm

Rush wasn't nearly as popular pre-clinton. At the top of what? Conservative radio loudmouths? Considering his only competition at the time was Don Imus I'm not surprised he was at the top. You only have to look at how irrelavent and worthless Rush has been since Clinton left office to see where he got his only inspiration from. The man has completely run out of material. He even lost about 18 inches off his waistline as all that hot air leaked out him and there was no more phony belligerence to fill it back up with.

I actually have to hand it to white trash like O'Reilly. I don't know how he manages to fill show after show complaining about nobodies like Daschle and Kerry and actually finds an audience for it. Conservatives are secretly ashamed of themselves though, so they need constant propaganda from idiots like Rush and O'Reilly to reinforce their 200 year old viewpoints on most social and political issues.

Kluden · Post by **Kluden** » April 4, 2003, 5:18 pm

I'll tell you how O'Reilly does it: He is funny. He is entertaining. I would have to say I disagree with him 75% of the time, would never call him becuase he is an unfair "podium hogger" when trying to argue your point...but all in all, I find his show very entertaining. I often laugh at the folks that call him up...and that is entertainment value you can't just buy.

*speaking directly about his radio show, "The No-Spin Zone"...I don't watch, and have never seen his tv show.*

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » April 4, 2003, 5:28 pm

Yeah I don't know how anyone could be insane enough to go on or call into O'Reilly's show. The minute anyone makes a valid point that knocks down his house of card arguments he cuts off their microphone or mutes their phone.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » April 4, 2003, 5:32 pm

You keep telling yourself that.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » April 4, 2003, 5:41 pm

Well I can't counter such a well-constructed and informed argument like that!

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » April 4, 2003, 6:06 pm

I know you can't, and thanks for sparing us a sloppy attempt.

Kargyle · Post by **Kargyle** » April 4, 2003, 7:14 pm

Except for that transcript of O'Reilly actually telling the the sound booth to cut his guest's mic because O'Reilly had no effective counter argument. Someone even posted it on these boards, do a search, I'm sure you can find it.

edit: because I do know how to spell argument

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » April 4, 2003, 7:34 pm

And the moon is made of cheese. Do a search....

Acies · Post by **Acies** » April 4, 2003, 7:57 pm

Kyou > O'Reilly punk ass

Kargyle · Post by **Kargyle** » April 4, 2003, 9:40 pm

Must have been mistaken, doesn't appear the transcript was posted here, guess I saw it somewhere else. Here's a link to the previously mentioned transcript.

http://64.176.94.191/article1253.htm

Acies · Post by **Acies** » April 4, 2003, 9:48 pm

Hahahaha!
That reminds me too much of the liberal vs. conservative arguements here on VV

Fizzlewhip · Post by **Fizzlewhip** » April 4, 2003, 10:28 pm

kyoukan type-R wrote:
Silvarel Mistmoon wrote:No Millie you are wrong, it Was Clintons office that cut and cut. I know because of being married to a vet and being the daughter of a vet and sister to a vet. It was the Clinton admin that did the cutting, Bush was not in office when happened.
I am not going continue to argue the point with you when I know first hand whos admin did it while they were in office.
Congress controls budget resolutions spending like that.

http://capwiz.com/dav/issues/alert/?ale ... 76&type=CU

House Budget Resolution Will Slash $9.7 Billion from Veterans Medical Care and $15 Billion from Disability Compensation and Other Benefit Programs
Write the Speaker of the House of Representatives to express your opposition today

By a vote along party lines, the majority members of the House Budget Committee passed and reported for a vote by the House a budget resolution that would cut $844 million from veterans’ medical care next year and $9.7 billion over the next 10 years. In addition, the budget resolution would cut $15 billion from the disability compensation and other benefit programs over the next 10 years. The House leadership are pushing these cuts to offset the cost of the President’s $1.57 trillion tax reduction plan. Send an e-mail to the Speaker of the House today. A vote on this resolution by the entire House membership could come as early as Wednesday, March 19, 2003. Please enter your zip code in the box provided, and send the prepared e-mail message today!
Honest to christ at least try and learn a little about how your own government works. Look you have foreigners educating you about it.

Fucking sad.

Sorry Kyo, but congress is only PART of the checks and balances we have. Congress APPROVES/DISAPPROVES/AMENDS the budget which gets sent back to the president.

Here is a link supporting Silvarel's point:

http://veterans.house.gov/news/106/3-26-99.htm

Before you spout off about educating people, you should probably search the net for items that MIGHT validate thier points.