If you were an organ donor....

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » February 28, 2003, 7:05 pm

No, three strikes should mean exile. Fuck you if you can't live by a simple set of rules.

Sorry Vor, but reform does not work. Our revolving-door prisons illustrate that perfectly.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 28, 2003, 7:06 pm

the Declariation of Independence, while important to consider when understanding the spirit in which legislation should be crafted, is not a document that legally establishes any rights.

and regardless, she has "life". so that right has been granted.

everybody is going to die at some point or another, it would be a curious argument to suggest that the government should invest in keeping every citizen alive as long as possible to satisfy their "right to life".

i think you can still provide excellent health care to prisoners while not performing extreme procedures like organ transplants, which incidentally, usually only prolong peoples' lives another couple of years, max. it isnt like they are gonna have another 20 years.

this person is going to die because of the damage she inflicted upon herself drinking and doing drugs. it is either going to happen now, or in 2 years, but her death is immenent, and it is self inflicted.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 28, 2003, 7:10 pm

Fallanthas wrote:No, three strikes should mean exile. Fuck you if you can't live by a simple set of rules.

Sorry Vor, but reform does not work. Our revolving-door prisons illustrate that perfectly.

you are not making a logically sound argument.

not all crimes are the same. therefore not all punishments are the same. as a result, the end goal of the punishment is not the same for all crimes.

whether or not, in your opinion, reform works, is irrelevant. it is one of the stated goals of the penal system.

Federal Bureau of Prison's Mission Statement wrote:Mission Statement

It is the mission of the Federal Bureau of Prisons to protect society by confining offenders in the controlled environments of prisons and community-based facilities that are safe, humane, cost-efficient, and appropriately secure, and that provide work and other self-improvement opportunities to assist offenders in becoming law-abiding citizens.

moreover, only a complete and utter moron would construct a penal system that did not intend to reform prisoners that were only to be incarcerated for a period of months or a couple of years.

that our prisons dont perform up to what they should is a seperate issue, tied in large part to the fact that they are not properly funded. everybody wants to send all the bad guys to jail, but nobody wants to pay to adequately perform that task.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » February 28, 2003, 7:31 pm

Whether Joy gets a liver will depend on her. Doctors have told the 5-foot-10, 195-pound woman that she must lose 30 pounds and get her diabetes under control before they will put her on a transplant list. She's already lost 70 pounds the last two years, some because of illness.

I'm sending her a case of Twinkies and Moutain Dew...

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » February 28, 2003, 8:48 pm

Voronwë wrote:moreover, only a complete and utter moron would construct a penal system that did not intend to reform prisoners that were only to be incarcerated for a period of months or a couple of years.

cough cough

look who you're talking to

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » February 28, 2003, 9:02 pm

Agreed Vor.

I assumed since Aabidano referenced the term "Three strikes" he was talking about class one crimes, as that's the term used whever such legislation comes up.

If that wasn't the way the phrase was being used, then yes, we need to establish some crteria for "three strikes".

The return rate to prison is ghastly. The success rate of reform is abysmal. You see this as a funding issue, I see it more as a judicial problem. With mandatory sentencing, there aren't enough options to incarceration available. There are a ton of criminals in prisons who would be better reformed going through other programs.

On a side note, ain't Kyoucan cute when she stalks throuh threads taking potshots without contributing to the discussion in any way?

Hi Kooky!

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » February 28, 2003, 9:04 pm

have you read this thread?

the exact subject you are talking about was introduced by me.

fucking christ you are so dumb.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » February 28, 2003, 9:09 pm

And your last two posts had jack and shit to do with the subject.

Done now? Or did you have more spittle to spray?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » February 28, 2003, 9:10 pm

I can't help it if I'm compelled to correct you every time you say something stupidly wrong.

Axien_Dellusions · Post by **Axien_Dellusions** » February 28, 2003, 9:18 pm

Whoops didn't realize I doubled posted earlier, sorry hehe.

Voronwe, I understand that she has life but it's important to consider the quality of life lived. She may not have understood what she when she took the life of those prositutes and didn't give them life or the pursuit of life.

But one has to argue that even if the person in question is a criminal te criminal is still a living breathing human being. Personally for as many people as she killed I believe she should have gotten the death penatly, unless she is in a state where there is none or she pleaded out of it.

If we are going to address rights of criminals we have to address the judical system. The judicial system made a way for a criminal to possibly be found innocent by reasonable doubt and possibly the prosecutor couldnt' make a strong case against her so she got a plea or for whatever reason.

The question shouldn't be "should she get the organ?" it should be "why is she still alive?" The state that she resides in made the descion to keep her alive so they have to care for her.

Axien

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » February 28, 2003, 10:02 pm

Voronwë wrote:i think you can still provide excellent health care to prisoners while not performing extreme procedures like organ transplants, which incidentally, usually only prolong peoples' lives another couple of years, max. it isnt like they are gonna have another 20 years.

That's an interesting point. There should probably be some sort of determination made about what constitutes an "extreme procedure" and whether or not prisoners should be entitled to those treatments.

Voronwë wrote:there is MASSIVE difference between a state strapping somebody into a chair and pumping tons of volts through somebody causing their death and a person's heart failing due to bad genentics, bad lifestyle, or bad luck.

I'm sorry, I probably worded my original post badly. I wasn't trying to imply that these two instances are identical. Is the electric chair the same as telling a prisoner with a failing heart to f off? Hell no. But both instances mean that prisoner is going to die. And if the courts didn't decide she should die for her crimes, then it's nobody else's place to make that decision. Sure, maybe she'll only live another 2 years or so, in which case why should we bother spending govt money to save his/her life? Especially when the damage was self inflicted as a result of a careless lifestyle. Totally valid argument. But personally, I'm just not comfortable making that distinction.

There's a TON of grey area here, so I don't expect everyone to agree with me. Posting for the sake of debate.

Ceredwin · Post by **Ceredwin** » March 1, 2003, 8:02 pm

Where exactly in the Constitution is an organ guaranteed to be donated?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 1, 2003, 8:44 pm

Ceredwin wrote:Where exactly in the Constitution is an organ guaranteed to be donated?

there is no guarantee you moron. they haven't even put her on the list yet.

the guarantee is in equal medical treatment.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » March 2, 2003, 7:10 am

I would hate to have my organs donated to a murderer because its an organ that some innocent person may miss out on when they need it most. If noone else needed it or if it was a blood type that they have plenty of then it wouldnt matter to me...

What's worse than this is when innocent people die from not having an available organ because pricks refuse to be organ donors and would rather burn them to ash or let them rot in the ground.