VeeshanVault

Montanna had Rice...... and no one else. Manning had one good TE and not much else. Favre has generally had once semi solid wideout and nothing else. The Pats have had two to three pro bowl recievers a year since before Brady took over. His pass protection has also been a lot better than any other all time QB, aside from Dan Marino. Having 6 games a year that could be best described as high school skrimages (ie the AFC East) certainly doesn't hurt, either.

Don't get me wrong, he is a great QB and will be in the hall of fame, but there are worse QBs out there with more championships under their belt (Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw, ect) who are also in the hall of fame. There are better QBs with less rings (Manning, as an example) who are on weaker teams, overall. The Pats were a playoff team (Bledsoe even took them to a Superbowl) before Brady came along. When you start talking about the best QB of all time, I think of guys who's teams were nothing without him (9ers before Montanna, Pack before Favre, Broncos before Elway) and who had an immediate impact when they first got there. The Pats are probably the best offense in the history of the game, but Brady is more on par with Steve Young or Troy Aikmen; excellent QBs who inherrited an already descent team (though Aikmen had his team built up during his first season to be fair). If Brady wins/competes for a championship after Bellichek retires (and the pats have been raped by free agency), then I think he gets to be called one of the best of all time.

I was just listening to the Jim Rome show, where someone quoted a Giant fan, after their win yesterday as saying, "Great! Now we have to put up with Coughlin for another year!" Jim's comment was, "How very Giant fan of you."

I mean... you want emotion from Eli in a win or loss? How about just taking the fucking win and being happy? Why the fuck does he have to show emotion? If he's anything like his brother he's too busy preparing to win or thinking about the things he can do better to waste his time showing emotion. Leave emotion at the door. Seems like a good policy to me, and, oh look... Giant. Fan. You're in the NFC championship. Now shut the fuck up and enjoy it.

Tom Brady started playing during the second game of the 2001 season. That year, he led the Patriots to an 11-5 record, and they went on to win the Super Bowl by upsetting more talented teams, including the powerhouse Rams.

The previous year, the Patriots went 5-11 and finished in last place in the AFC East. After his arrival, the Patriots went 9-7, 14-2, 14-2, 10-6, 12-4, 16-0. His playoff record is 13-2.

Drew Bledsoe did lead the Patriots to a Super Bowl in 1996, where they were promptly blown out by the Packers. After that, their record got worse every year until they bottomed out prior to Brady’s arrival. The Patriots, upon winning the Super Bowl in 2001, were accused of being a one-hit wonder and the worst Super Bowl winner of all time. The game was hailed as the greatest upset since Super Bowl III.

The Patriots weren’t awful before Brady arrived, but when he arrived they were transformed into one of the top few teams of all time. Surely he had something to do with this transformation?

And it’s not like Elway (who was arguably overshadowed in his own backfield during his Super Bowl years), Manning (blessed with an offense featuring talent at running back and o-line, and an all-time great receiving corps), Favre (who enjoyed top-quality production from guys like Sterling Sharpe and Dorsey Levens and even Desmond Howard for one big game, along with one of the few greatest defensive players in history in Reggie White) and Montana (Jerry Rice is probably the greatest wideout in NFL history) were winning Super Bowls without talent.

And we saw what happened when the talent around them was lacking—the Broncos drafted Tommy Maddox as Elway’s heir apparent, Jim Mora went on a rant about PLAYOFFS?!?!?, Brett Favre spent 5 years considering retirement, and Joe Montana bitterly left the 49er’s QB position to Steve Young.

So anyway, that’s my defense of Tom Brady.

Thank you for doing the leg work that meetings prevented me from doing, Sueven.

Even I acknowledge that Brady, out of UM, is the best in the business with P.Manning the only other QB in his tier. The coaching plays a factor but not enough to outweigh Brady's off the charts football IQ.

noel wrote:I was just listening to the Jim Rome show, where someone quoted a Giant fan, after their win yesterday as saying, "Great! Now we have to put up with Coughlin for another year!" Jim's comment was, "How very Giant fan of you."

I mean... you want emotion from Eli in a win or loss? How about just taking the fucking win and being happy? Why the fuck does he have to show emotion? If he's anything like his brother he's too busy preparing to win or thinking about the things he can do better to waste his time showing emotion. Leave emotion at the door. Seems like a good policy to me, and, oh look... Giant. Fan. You're in the NFC championship. Now shut the fuck up and enjoy it.

Why on earth can't you actually have a conversation w/out a. taking the point out of context and b. not acting like an asshole just to be an asshole

Since you're going to need a touch more of background, i'll entertain it for once. Prior to the previous two games (and yes, that is what I'm talking about when it comes to building an opinion of someone), Coughlin wasn't getting the team w/ a good chunk of talent to play well. All of the things he was professing to do such as players won't be as likely to get as injured under his regiment (a dig at Fassel who was considered a "player's" coach, injuries must be a result of that scheme), and then having players injured w/ just as much frequency bug people. I get that he's dry but you can't claim discipline if your team, until now, was one of the worst disciplined teams out there. It builds up over time. Opinions don't just turn around overnight. Last night's press conference was the first time I saw the corners of his mouth turn a little upwards while talking. The guy's an ass who actually got this talented team playing together and win for the first time in his reign. Rome took a call from a guy that would say something to get him to reply, "How very Giant fan of you." If you think that's indicitive of the fan base, you shouldn't listen to talk radio.

As far as Eli goes, if you screw up in a game, look like you might be pissed about your performance. And again, this is a couple of years of games witnessing the behavior to get to this point. No one likes to see someone who loses to not look to care that they lost. When Kolzig got pulled last night after letting four goals in 16 shots, he was pissed and threw his stick down because he knows he needs to play better. A little self accountability would help.

Giants fans outside of your Rome call, were thrilled with the victory. Everybody was watching the game in my neighborhood last night and unless you were a Jets or Cowboys fan, they were cheering quite enthusiactically. We're proud of our team. They're gelling at the right time. Since I'm the fan of the team and you're not, quite frankly, you should be shutting the fuck up.

I am not sure why people question Brady's greatness. The guy is clutch, plain and simple. Sure Belichick plays a massive role but Qb-Coach relations are almost always mandatory to be successful.
As a viewer, if a team is down and needs a score to win or tie, and can't think of anyone since Montana where I could say, "he's going to pull this off". And probably anyone watching thinks that as well. He just finds a way and doesn't ever choke. There are so many chances for a qb to get rattled and yet he almost never does.

Title and content edited for this round.

Brady and Manning are in a class by themselves among current QB's, with Brady having a bit of an edge. Favre is every bit as great historically, but is from a previous class.

After that, you've got guys like Romo, McNabb, Palmer, Roethlisberger, etc etc. But none of these guys even approach Brady/Manning at this point.

Picks:

New England
Green Bay

for one hell of a Super Bowl.

I was just listening to the Jim Rome show, where someone quoted a Giant fan, after their win yesterday as saying, "Great! Now we have to put up with Coughlin for another year!" Jim's comment was, "How very Giant fan of you."

Haha! I missed that--only got to listen while driving to lunch. Rome nails the piss out of things usually and that comment is no different. As a Mets fan, I can truly appreciate it when Giant fan gets upset.

As for Brady and Manning, yeah, they are excellent QBs, no question. Not so sure if Brady could look as good with less of a supporting cast, but that is just speculation on my part.

Canelek wrote: Haha! I missed that--only got to listen while driving to lunch. Rome nails the piss out of things usually and that comment is no different. As a Mets fan, I can truly appreciate it when Giant fan gets upset.

I bet. You had to deal w/ Art Howe for two years

I think it's totally coincidental that Eli starts playing well right after Shockey gets injured. Oh wait I don't. I think Shockey is a disruptive ass that was more disruptive than helpful. I also seem to remember the Giants playing pretty damn well mid-season and then falling off for a few games before Shockey was injured and replaced by a guy who wants to help the team win. I would never hope for any professional athlete to be injured, but in this case, it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.


New England
Green Bay

The players had to deal with Howe, I just had to watch the by-product on MLB.TV. Hell, even Torre did a better job of managing the Mets, and he is a hack.

Since I'm the fan of the team and you're not, quite frankly, you should be shutting the fuck up.

?????

Since when did that become a rule. Hell, if that was the case then we would not be allowed to rip on Winnow's teams, which is like picking at low hanging fruit.

I am still waiting for that PS3 Winnow! Send it my way. It is lonely sitting in your closet.

Tyek wrote: I am still waiting for that PS3 Winnow! Send it my way. It is lonely sitting in your closet.

My PS3 is snoozing with the alarm set to go off when FFXIII is released. I was going to make a remark about how I could have invested the $500 while I waited but then I took a look at my stock portfolio's performance over the last year and think I made a wise choice in buying the PS3 early.

LOL I will send it back right before that game comes out.

Packers
Patriots (though I hope and pray the Chargers win)

Packers over whoever in the Superbowl because that is what I have to say. I believe it too.

Rumor around here in GB is that Farve may not retire again because he is having a lot of fun playing again. My personal opinion is that if we win the superbowl he should go out on top and retire.

Favre is on a season long lucky streak. If the Packers and Patriots wind up in the Super Bowl, he should retire before the game if he wants to go out on top. I'd regain all respect for him if he did that.

Tyek wrote:

Since I'm the fan of the team and you're not, quite frankly, you should be shutting the fuck up.

?????

Since when did that become a rule. Hell, if that was the case then we would not be allowed to rip on Winnow's teams, which is like picking at low hanging fruit.

I am still waiting for that PS3 Winnow! Send it my way. It is lonely sitting in your closet.

It's ok, he's a fan, and I'm not (I'm not?).

I like Eli's progression and I like what Coughlin's has done. Hell, Michael Strahan likes what Coughlin has done.

But he's the fan.

Jice Virago wrote:Montanna had Rice...... and no one else. .

Your joking right? I mean really, do you read what you type?


I dislike the 49ers and I can recall many great players, even a fwe from their 1st SB in 81' with Ronnie Lott, Hacksaw Reynolds, Eric Wright, Fred Dean, Dwight 'the catch' Clark and thats just a few 'no one elses' off the top of my head.

From there the team really gets great players Like Rice, and that other guy Taylor who was better then most #1 recievers in the league, hell even Solomon their 3rd guy was pretty darn good as I recal. Not to mention guys like Roger Craig, Tom Rathman and they had a great tight end to whos name escapes me (Brent Jones!), Tim Mkyer, Charles Hayley and I think their Offensive line always had 2-3 pro bowlers in it.

Oh ya: Pierce Holt, Matt Millen, Bill Romanowski, god now I remember hating the 49ers


I would like to see what you consider a stacked team

Bubba Grizz wrote:Packers
Patriots (though I hope and pray the Chargers win)

Packers over whoever in the Superbowl because that is what I have to say. I believe it too.

noel wrote:

Tyek wrote:

Since I'm the fan of the team and you're not, quite frankly, you should be shutting the fuck up.

?????

Since when did that become a rule. Hell, if that was the case then we would not be allowed to rip on Winnow's teams, which is like picking at low hanging fruit.

I am still waiting for that PS3 Winnow! Send it my way. It is lonely sitting in your closet.

It's ok, he's a fan, and I'm not (I'm not?).

I like Eli's progression and I like what Coughlin's has done. Hell, Michael Strahan likes what Coughlin has done.

But he's the fan.

Yes, I am the fan. Fans are never critical of their teams when they aren't performing. It's good to see that they are this year.
Just a silly attempt at irony. Maybe it's because of not comprehending the entire post or maybe you're just trying to be a goose, what do I know.

Winnow wrote:Favre is on a season long lucky streak. If the Packers and Patriots wind up in the Super Bowl, he should retire before the game if he wants to go out on top. I'd regain all respect for him if he did that.

First of all, you never have and will never respect anyone, not even yourself. Second of all, what you are seeing this season is not luck but a talented young team that finally started executing at the end of last season, backed up by a descent defense. That said, I think he should retire if he wins the superbowl, as well, but the fact of the matter is that it has been a long time since he has had this level of talent and execution around him and I know it has to be hard to pass up the chance to make a couple of runs with this stable of talent, so I figure my original prediction is correct and that he will retire after next season. He doesn't need to play for anything beyond the pure enjoyment of the game at this point and, unlike most at his level, thats probably what drives him the most (and makes him so universally popular).

As long as he hangs it up without an injury making the choice for him, I am all for whatever he decides. He brought respectability, fun, and success to the GB team and to my mind has had a more positive impact on his team than any other player in sports history, short of Jordan. People love seeing him play for the same reason you despise him; he is the genuine article and down to earth guy. The entire GB are will miss him when he finally hangs it up, for sure.

Chill. I haven't even seen a Packers game this year. I just like messing with Bubba.

I've seen plenty of Favre in the past through and he likes to throw the deep ball up for grabs way too often or make a cute little "flip" play that works 10% of the time but more than likely end up in a bad play.

I respect Favre's career and am surprised at his success this season. Good for him, now retire.

Brett Favre has to be one of the most epic quarterbacks in history.

He holds virtually every career passing mark, including yards and touchdowns. He, along with Reggie White, managed to transform a moribund franchise in Green Bay, Wisconsin (pop 100,353) into one of the top franchises in the NFL. He started at QB in the second game of the year in 1992 and has started EVERY GAME since. He's led the Packers to 13 winning seasons, 2 even seasons, and only 1 losing season. He's played in 2 Super Bowls, winning one, and has another shot next weekend. He's currently 12-9 in the playoffs.

That's legendary right there, no matter what valid criticisms might exist.

I was born in Allentown, PA. Allentown is noteworthy because Billy Joel once wrote a song called 'Allentown,' and because it neighbors Bethlehem, home of the now-defunct Bethlehem Steel, which provided the steel to build the Golden Gate Bridge. I mention this only to point out that Allentown (pop 106,632) is a bigger city than Green Bay.

Also, just for reference: As noted above, since Favre became a starter, he's led his team to 13 winning seasons. The Arizona Cardinals have had precisely ONE winning season during this time.

Sueven wrote:Brett Favre has to be one of the most epic quarterbacks in history.

He holds virtually every career passing mark, including yards and touchdowns. He, along with Reggie White, managed to transform a moribund franchise in Green Bay, Wisconsin (pop 100,353) into one of the top franchises in the NFL. He started at QB in the second game of the year in 1992 and has started EVERY GAME since. He's led the Packers to 13 winning seasons, 2 even seasons, and only 1 losing season. He's played in 2 Super Bowls, winning one, and has another shot next weekend. He's currently 12-9 in the playoffs.

That's legendary right there, no matter what valid criticisms might exist.

I was born in Allentown, PA. Allentown is noteworthy because Billy Joel once wrote a song called 'Allentown,' and because it neighbors Bethlehem, home of the now-defunct Bethlehem Steel, which provided the steel to build the Golden Gate Bridge. I mention this only to point out that Allentown (pop 106,632) is a bigger city than Green Bay.

Also, just for reference: As noted above, since Favre became a starter, he's led his team to 13 winning seasons. The Arizona Cardinals have had precisely ONE winning season during this time.

Well said.

On Eli - I think the thing that bugs me about the criticisms (and probably AraNoel too) is that it has been fairly widespread throughout the media,but ironically its more the "general sports" commentators not the football analysts that seem to be the source. The guys that seem like glorified fan, with no special insight, just an (in)ability to look at the stats and try and decifer the story of a game without watching it in its entirety. Couple that with his entire situation: the hall of fame bound brother, his famous father, the fact that another QB in his draft year has already got a ring and he is playing in the biggest and one of the demanding sports markets in the world... he is actually a QB that I pull for, because its probably more pressure than any other athlete in pro sports. As for an apparent lack of emotion, how do we know whats going on in his head? I know that when I'm doing something professionally, I try to keep my emotions in check and surpressed. Some people can use that emotion as a springboard but I find it more an encumbrance and I'm not alone: how do we know that he's not that way? Or like others mentioned thinking ahead to waht he has to do next? Add that to the fact that you could read his lips and see the "Fuck!!!" when he blew a couple throws on Sunday... its not like the kid is a robot...

Favre - I think Winnow is the only person anywhere I see constantly throwing shit at Favre hoping it will stick. When I look at it analytically, I agree he probably should take a graceful bow after this season BUT I'm torn because it is fun to watch him seeing him having fun and getting it done.

Brady - is one of the three currently active QBs thats guaranteed to be on the way to Canton. Peyton, Favre and Brady are all going in. Brady has been too consistent over the years and won too much for people not to take him seriously. Yes he has had good teams (some better than others) and great coaching but that helps him, it doesn't MAKE him. He's still got to be able to use those advantages.

Wulfran wrote:
Favre - I think Winnow is the only person anywhere I see constantly throwing shit at Favre hoping it will stick. When I look at it analytically, I agree he probably should take a graceful bow after this season BUT I'm torn because it is fun to watch him seeing him having fun and getting it done.

Favre had several crappy seasons the past few years up until the present season. He looked like the classic athlete hanging on too long. I just wanted to see him retire on top of his game and not hang on too long like most athletes do.

Here's the Favre thread I started in December of 2005 for reference:

http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/view ... 22&t=16450

Let's be clear: By 'several crappy seasons,' you mean 'two.' In 2004, the Packers went 10-6, won the NFC North title, and Favre posted a passer rating of 92.4.

Winnow wrote:

Wulfran wrote:
Favre - I think Winnow is the only person anywhere I see constantly throwing shit at Favre hoping it will stick. When I look at it analytically, I agree he probably should take a graceful bow after this season BUT I'm torn because it is fun to watch him seeing him having fun and getting it done.

Favre had several crappy seasons the past few years up until the present season. He looked like the classic athlete hanging on too long. I just wanted to see him retire on top of his game and not hang on too long like most athletes do.

Here's the Favre thread I started in December of 2005 for reference:

http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/view ... 22&t=16450

You need to actually look up statistics before you make sports statements once in awhile, Winnow.

2005 was a bad year for Favre, you are correct. It also happens to be his ONLY losing season as a QB, and it was coming off 4 years of playoff appearances (so, 2005 and 2006 can only be included in his "several" crappy seasons). In 2006, he did not have a great year, but it was far from crappy. Not to mention his team during those seasons, and the fact that his career highs in pass attempts were during those seasons.

So Favre had ONE bad season as far as I can tell. He did look like he was hanging on too long in 2005, but when his team started getting it together in 2006, he looked like he could still play with the best of them (which was shown to be true this year, and look at his games at the end of 2006).

Retiring on top of his game would be sweet!

You'll notice a lot of my irritation was set off by the announcers. It was a Brett Farve lovefest even if he was sucking as he did in 2005 that drove me nuts.

New England - Rivers or Volek? Either way they are going down.
Green Bay - So New England can beat all but Seattle of final 8 playoff teams at least once this year. Wow.

Animale

Sylvus wrote:What? Brady replaced an injured Bledsoe and immediately the Patriots became a dynasty. Supporting cast? I think Brady's 3 rings that he had before he ever had a receiver like Jerry Rice or any of the Colts' receivers (and let's not even bring running backs into the discussion) speak to his ability to get the job done with less talent than the people you mention.

His supporting cast is much better this year, and that has added to his gaudy numbers this season. But he was winning Superbowls before this year, and is absolutely one of the greatest QBs of all time. A few rings and a couple Superbowl MVP trophies before this season had already solidified that. Now he's making a run at best ever.

A-Fucking-Men. I'm not sure how anyone can downplay this guy. He's touched by God or some shit when it comes to throwing a football.

Due to his strong performances both in the regular season and the postseason (1 NFL MVP, 2 Super Bowl MVPs), Brady is widely regarded as one of the best quarterbacks of his era. He has won three Super Bowls (XXXVI, XXXVIII, XXXIX), two Super Bowl MVP awards (XXXVI and XXXVIII), has been invited to four Pro Bowls, and holds the NFL record for most touchdown passes in a single regular season. Brady was named as Sports Illustrated's Sportsman of the Year, in 2005. He also helped set the record for the longest consecutive win streak in NFL history with 21 straight wins over two seasons.

In 2007 Brady was named "Sportsman of the Year" by The Sporting News for the second time in his career. He was also named the NFL MVP, as well as Male Athlete of the Year by the Associated Press, the first time he has received that honor, and the first time an NFL player has been honored since Joe Montana won in 1990.

Don't forget his collage years.

During his first full year as starter, he set Michigan records for most pass attempts (350) and completions in a season (214). Brady was All-Big Ten (honorable mention) both seasons and team captain his senior year. The Wolverines won 20 of 25 games when he started and shared the Big Ten Conference title in 1998. Brady capped that season off with a win over Arkansas in the Citrus Bowl. In the 1999 season, Brady led Michigan to an overtime win in the Orange Bowl over Alabama, throwing for 369 yards and four touchdowns.

Brady is beyond good. He's proven it over and over and over again.

Oh yeah, here's a nice round-up:

Career bests
Highest single-game quarterback rating: 158.3 (at Miami, October 21, 2007)
Highest single-season quarterback rating: 117.2 (2007)
Highest total passing touchdowns in a regular season: 50 (2007)
Lowest interception total, season (minimum 2 starts): 8 (2007)
Largest touchdown to interception difference: +42 (2007)

21-game win streak statistics (including post-season)
690 passes attempted
412 passes completed
4,953 passing yards
34 passing touchdowns
13 passes intercepted
20.29 passing attempts per touchdown
53.07 passing attempts per interception
59.71 completion rate
90.3 passer rating

Career (as of January 12, 2008)
86-24 (regular season), 99-26 (career) as a starter
18.89 passing attempts per touchdown (career)
43.75 passing attempts per interception (career)
7-0 (career) in overtime games
30-5 (career) in games decided by 3 points or fewer
11-1 (career) in dome stadiums
38-2 (career) on artificial surfaces
27-4 (career) vs NFC teams
84-1 (regular season) when the Patriots have a lead at any time in the fourth quarter
28 game-winning drives after a Patriots' fourth-quarter tie or deficit

Post-season records and statistics
NFL record for most consecutive wins in post season: 10 (broke record of Green Bay's Bart Starr).
Most consecutive post season wins (college and professional combined): 12
3 Super Bowl victories
2 Super Bowl MVP awards
Most completions in a Super Bowl (32 in Super Bowl XXXVIII)
Highest completion percentage in a single game, minimum 20 attempts (26 of 28, 92.9%, against Jacksonville in 2007 AFC Divisional round)

What more does it take for someone to admit he's one of the greatest QB's in the history of the game?

Fairweather Pure wrote:Don't forget his collage years.

I'm not flaming you, I simply find this quote very funny, and even more funny when I say:

He was the best collager in his entire kindergarten class!

noel wrote:

Fairweather Pure wrote:Don't forget his collage years.

I'm not flaming you, I simply find this quote very funny, and even more funny when I say:

He was the best collager in his entire kindergarten class!

I have tried to ignore that particular spelling error every time he has made it. I know we all have words (okay, well, I do) that we just cannot seem to remember how to spell correctly, but that one is just cute

I find that I frequently misspell homonyms. I agree though, that one is just cute. Can you imagine Tom Brady laying out on a kindergarten floor with some scissors, construction paper, posterboard and some magazines collaging his little heart out?

I was about to talk about collages as well.

Tom Brady: The Collage Years

That is good for a chuckle isn't it?

edit: taken from google image search for: "tom brady collage"

HAHA Fash, Thanks for the great laugh. I needed it.

I am going out on a limb here and going with New England and Green Bay.

I dug up that info and posted at 2am. Fuck every last one of you!

Actually, after I posted, I saw there was another dozen or so posts after where I stopped reading. I submitted my post and was like "Where the fuck did all these other posts come from?" "Damn, I need to go to bed."

Green Bay vs Pats for one of the greatest Superbowls in memory. I also predict some of the highest Superbowl viewer numbers ever if these two are indeed the final teams. I perfer Pats to take it, but it's not like MI losing to OSU for me. I would almost be as happy to see Greenbay win it.

Fash, that's so great! You too are having some great collage years!

Fair, it was comedy gold. I think we all thank you more than any of us are making fun of you.

noel wrote:Fair, it was comedy gold. I think we all thank you more than any of us are making fun of you.

If I thought for one second you were actually making fun of me, you'd all be dead right now. IRLPKs for every one of you.

TO THE DEALTH!

I want to cheer for the Chargers. My son loves them, we took him to a game and my some of my customers have season tickets, but I have never seen a team with no actual major accomplishments talk so much crap. From Rivers attitude towards opposing fans, to some random lineman's comments about the Patriots, it feels like an old fashion butt kicking is about to be administered to a deserving Charger team.

Rivers is going to get sooo tatooed next year by opposing defenses. Way too much smack talk for a mediocre QA.

Back on topic....

I've got yer IRLPK right here, Fair!

Well done is better than well said. - Tom Brady

Hah! So true.

With just under 7 minutes to go in the 4th quarter, I have to say...

This has been a phenomenal game. Well played by both the Packers and the Giants. I can't imagine how cold it must be.

The NFL must be ecstatic. They have the Patriots going for perfection, and either Farve making one more run at the title, or Eli trying to escape the shadow of Peyton. Should be a very widely watched Super Bowl this year.