Water-boarding IS torture

[Xatrei]

OLBERMANN: ... he would have admitted to anything to make it stop.

I always thought this part of the argument was totally misguided. You're not torturing someone to get them to admit to something, you're doing it to get information... information which can be acted upon and verified. Considering how traumatic it is, it's less likely they'd be able to make something up on the fly. Again, just how many people did they waterboard? Very few... There has to be a specific reason, if you're going to take it that far.

It was so effective that they had to water torture (the old, non-euphemistic name for it) many dozens of times each over a period of weeks. Ticking bomb my ass. Are you getting your opinions on the efficacy of torture from "24" or do you have some other source for this wisdom that most intelligence and interrogation professionals, who seem to believe the contrary, are missing?

[Keverian FireCry]

I always thought this part of the argument was totally misguided. You're not torturing someone to get them to admit to something, you're doing it to get information... information which can be acted upon and verified.

So we were torturing then? Good to know that you're okay with it, as long as it provides intelligence that may or may not be verifiable and may or may not lead to the imprisonment or death of innocent people.

Sounds worth it to me. Whether or not we inflame the entire world against us doesn't matter. At least we are more likely to capture people who may or may not be terrorists.

[Xyun]

Criminals don't care about legality. The Bush administration was saturated with criminals. They convinced the savage and barbaric right that being savage and barbaric is acceptable in America, and that in order to defeat our enemy, we have to become like them. The people who adhere to this ideology expose themselves for what they really are: cowards.

Because no Democrats went along with this...sure. Stop with the Party-line crap. I understand you don't like Republicans but they both suck. I guess you can say one party is better then the other, but to be frank neither has shown me shit in years. We had a Democratic congress for several years, so if bad stuff happened they either knew about it and allowed it, or were ineffectual in stopping it. It's called checks and balances. Obama cannot change the world because he needs congress, Bush could not do everything he did without a quiet consent from Congress.

edit -
I hate coming off like I am defending the Republicans or the right. I am not, I just am amused that we have turned Bush into this almost mystical being. He was a terrible President, his administration was a joke, yet he was apparently able to wield unstoppable power and keep the wonderful Left from protecting us. He is supposedly not very intelligent, yet he was able to steal 2 elections, destroy the economy and create a massive war in the Middle East with only the backing of his administration?

I guess I am just tired of the political party line crap from both sides. The truth is,I fall somewhere in the middle of both ideologies and I stopped caring about party affiliation. I will vote on the candidate I think is most likely to TRY and accomplish the things they promise while still doing whatever it takes to get the votes. I think we have quite a few intelligent people on this board and I hope they are watching their own party as much as it seems some are watching the other. It seems like the politics of the day is to bash the other party and blame them for the failures, yet no one seems to be noticing that even in the best environments it takes groups from both sides working together to make things work. I am afraid of both groups pushing away from the middle and working on extremist agendas, be it right or left.

I think us in the middle, and I think that is the majority of this country, are being ignored by the radical voices to the left and the right. I think Obama won because he appealed more to this silent group in the middle. He was always getting the people on the left, but he spoke to those of us in the Republican party that were disenchanted with the leadership and direction the vocal minority was taking us. I think the Democrats would be wise to learn from that lesson and move people like Pelosi out of the spotlight or in 8 years we may be talking about the death of the Democrats the same way people talk about the death of the Republican party today.

Just my 2 cents.

We have a gigantic disconnect and I want to clarify. I'm not saying that Democrats' shit don't stink. We're not talking about some corrupt politician who stole some money or fucked some whore. We are talking about the United States government torturing people. Sure there are tons of enablers out there, present company included. But the issue here is the execution of torture by our government in our name. George W. Bush and his administration are fully and wholly responsible for this atrocity.

When I was a kid I knew a kid who loved to torture frogs. He would hold them up with one limb, throw them in the air, punt them as far as he could, put them in microwaves, and one time he launched one from his water balloon launcher. Your pseudo-logic says I'm just as guilty as he is because I was a witness who could have tried to stop him. How fucking stupid is that? You have to try to stop thinking like a conservative.

I mean seriously, the sig says it all.

[Fash]

OLBERMANN: ... he would have admitted to anything to make it stop.

I always thought this part of the argument was totally misguided. You're not torturing someone to get them to admit to something, you're doing it to get information... information which can be acted upon and verified. Considering how traumatic it is, it's less likely they'd be able to make something up on the fly. Again, just how many people did they waterboard? Very few... There has to be a specific reason, if you're going to take it that far.

It was so effective that they had to water torture (the old, non-euphemistic name for it) many dozens of times each over a period of weeks. Ticking bomb my ass. Are you getting your opinions on the efficacy of torture from "24" or do you have some other source for this wisdom that most intelligence and interrogation professionals, who seem to believe the contrary, are missing?

It's ancient news, but how about the CIA memo that says waterboarding of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed gave them actionable information which thwarted an attack on Los Angeles? Really that is good enough for me...

I'll repeat, I absolutely want it to be the policy of the US that we DO NOT torture. It's against everything, let's say... and then do it anyways, when necessary.

Really, the sig says it all...

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

We have a gigantic disconnect and I want to clarify. I'm not saying that Democrats' shit don't stink. We're not talking about some corrupt politician who stole some money or fucked some whore. We are talking about the United States government torturing people. Sure there are tons of enablers out there, present company included. But the issue here is the execution of torture by our government in our name. George W. Bush and his administration are fully and wholly responsible for this atrocity.

You are failing to grasp one little thing. It was not George Bush torturing people. It was the US military and CIA. If you think this is just during Bush's terms in office, then you are delusional. There is a reason they do not have the CIA reality series on TV. They do not want you seeing what they do because the US population has no stomach for what people have to do to keep this country safe. You bleeding hearts would have us completely disarmed and open to all and we would be attacked within months if you had your way.

Every President, whether Dem or GOP, has had people doing some serious dirty work. Some of it would make waterboarding look like something you would pay for by the hour in a mall. The problem with the Bush era is that he made enough mistakes that people leaked even more shit and it became public knowledge. Nothing more than that.

[Sueven]

It's ancient news, but how about the CIA memo that says waterboarding of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed gave them actionable information which thwarted an attack on Los Angeles? Really that is good enough for me...

I'm pretty sure that KSM was not waterboarded until after the LA plot was thwarted. I'm not double-checking my facts, so I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that's correct.

[Spang]

I'm pretty sure that KSM was not waterboarded until after the LA plot was thwarted. I'm not double-checking my facts, so I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that's correct.

It is.

[Fash]

It's unfortunate that KSM misinformation is so widely spread that pages of google results didn't bring it up...

There are less details to this one, but apparently it didn't take more than once for Abu Zubaydah to have visions of Allah telling him to cooperate.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... go.w59n6AI

Zubaydah withstood the waterboarding for ``quite some time'' -- about 30 to 35 seconds -- Kiriakou said in the ABC interview.

``The next day, he told his interrogator that Allah had visited him in his cell during the night and told him to cooperate,'' Kiriakou told ABC. ``From that day on, he answered every question. The threat information he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks.''

Kiriakou said he is torn in his attitude about the technique. ``I'm involved in this internal, intellectual battle with myself, weighing the idea that waterboarding may be torture versus the quality of information that we often get after using the waterboarding technique,'' he told ABC.

[Xatrei]

It's unfortunate that KSM misinformation is so widely spread that pages of google results didn't bring it up...

There are less details to this one, but apparently it didn't take more than once for Abu Zubaydah to have visions of Allah telling him to cooperate.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... go.w59n6AI

Zubaydah withstood the waterboarding for ``quite some time'' -- about 30 to 35 seconds -- Kiriakou said in the ABC interview.

``The next day, he told his interrogator that Allah had visited him in his cell during the night and told him to cooperate,'' Kiriakou told ABC. ``From that day on, he answered every question. The threat information he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks.''

Kiriakou said he is torn in his attitude about the technique. ``I'm involved in this internal, intellectual battle with myself, weighing the idea that waterboarding may be torture versus the quality of information that we often get after using the waterboarding technique,'' he told ABC.

If he was so cooperative and valuable as an information source after being waterboarded, were the other 82 times just for funsies?

[Fash]

Could be... where do you see that he was waterboarded 83 times?

[Zaelath]

It's unfortunate that KSM misinformation is so widely spread that pages of google results didn't bring it up...

There are less details to this one, but apparently it didn't take more than once for Abu Zubaydah to have visions of Allah telling him to cooperate.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... go.w59n6AI

Zubaydah withstood the waterboarding for ``quite some time'' -- about 30 to 35 seconds -- Kiriakou said in the ABC interview.

``The next day, he told his interrogator that Allah had visited him in his cell during the night and told him to cooperate,'' Kiriakou told ABC. ``From that day on, he answered every question. The threat information he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks.''

Kiriakou said he is torn in his attitude about the technique. ``I'm involved in this internal, intellectual battle with myself, weighing the idea that waterboarding may be torture versus the quality of information that we often get after using the waterboarding technique,'' he told ABC.

I agree, I think they should extend it to all American law enforcement immediately in order to get speedy convictions and more co-operation from informants.

[Fash]

Hah, yeah no one would advocate that...

Too bad there isn't a comparable analogue. You can only be beheaded once.

[Xatrei]

Could be... where do you see that he was waterboarded 83 times?

Open a fucking newspaper, jesus...

Or google.


Here's one of thousands of refrences to Zubaydah's history with water torture that can be found on newspapers, magazines, TV reports, radio reports, etc. if you're interested in actually being informed on the shit you're talking about.

[Fash]

I didn't realize that most waterboard applications take a matter of seconds, and that he was waterboarded 83 times in one month... less than 12 minutes per day for a month.

boo fucking hoo that the leader of al queda loses control of his bladder under stress.

you're fucking idiots.

[Spang]

We're fucking civilized.

[Sueven]

Fash, no offense, but you came to this argument

1) with no evident idea of how waterboarding works (no concept of duration, etc)
2) with no evident idea of what intelligence value waterboarding produced (arguing that the LA plot was thwarted by it)
3) with no evident idea of how waterboarding was practiced (arguing that Zubaydah had "visions of Allah telling him to cooperate" after only one waterboarding)

And after all that, your reaction is not "hmm, maybe I had some misconceptions about this subject and should rethink my opinions." Instead, it's "well, I'm still right and you're all fucking idiots."

I wish you would rethink instead. This is one of those times when a reasonable person stops to think twice instead of blindly holding onto beliefs that were clearly formed based on misconceptions.

[Fash]

1) I thought it took longer... hah.
2) I found that misinformation when asked to find something to prove my belief, which you're calling a misconception... None of us know for sure, since they won't release all of the intelligence.
3) I know how it's practiced, that has nothing to do with the interview with the ex-cia operative.

I do agree I am no expert as none of us are, but it doesn't change that I believe in and support this procedure which our intelligence agencies decide is necessary to extract information from high value targets.

I err on the side of trusting the people doing the interrogating. They have more information than we do. We're armchair quarterbacks.

[Fairweather Pure]

I err on the side of trusting the people doing the interrogating. They have more information than we do. We're armchair quarterbacks.

What an irresponsible and dangerous line of thinking.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I have absolutely no qualms with, and I completely encourage, any type of torture necessary when it is used against members of terror cells that are planning attacks that are aimed at killing innocent civilians.

If they made it a pay-per-view special, I would pay my $50 to watch them water board this fuck all month. I would go for $100 if they would stick burning coals into his nipples and stuff lit cigarettes into his peehole.

Lets not forget that they are not following the "rules of war" which is the entire fucking reason Guantanamo exists and why Geneva Convention rules do not apply. Fuck terrorists.

[Spang]

I have absolutely no qualms with, and I completely encourage, any type of torture necessary when it is used against members of terror cells that are planning attacks that are aimed at killing innocent civilians.

If they made it a pay-per-view special, I would pay my $50 to watch them water board this fuck all month. I would go for $100 if they would stick burning coals into his nipples and stuff lit cigarettes into his peehole.

Lets not forget that they are not following the "rules of war" which is the entire fucking reason Guantanamo exists and why Geneva Convention rules do not apply. Fuck terrorists.

You're a sick fuck. Also, just because they committed crimes against us does not give us the right to commit crimes against them.

[Aabidano]

...just because they committed crimes against us does not give us the right to commit crimes against them.

Ack, agreeing with Spang is against my beliefs! He's right in this instance though

[Aslanna]

I don't think the Geneva Convention has anything to do with the issue. Just another point that the crazy right-wingers are unclear about.

On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights the full text of which appears in the following pages.

PREAMBLE

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.

<...>

Article 5.

* No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Nice try though. Let me know when you find a conscience. But that might not be possible considering you fucks seem brainwashed by the fear agenda that was pushed by the Bush administration on a near weekly, if not daily, basis.

[Xatrei]

I err on the side of trusting the people doing the interrogating. They have more information than we do. We're armchair quarterbacks.

I suspect that if it was effective, legal and beneficial to us, the Bush administration would not have ceased this program in favor of more effective and traditional interrogation methods once it stopped listening to the Cheney/Rumsfeld faction of his administration. Once cooler heads prevailed and the reactionary, panicked influences were marginalized, we stopped doing this. Why? Did George W. Bush hate our freedoms and wish to make us less safe?

Also, I lol at the Kilmolls of the world who are so willing, even eager, to sink to the level of those they despise so much. That which separates us from the animals apparently doesn't exist in these people.

[Fash]

I don't put it past any president to SAY we've stopped something, regardless of whether we have or have not. I don't think it should be public knowledge that it happens, that's been the problem from the start.

[Spang]

I don't think it should be public knowledge that it happens, that's been the problem from the start.

I'm sure Catholic priests made the same argument after they got caught fucking kids.

[Fash]

Except no possible good could come from fucking kids. You can't say that about waterboarding, asshat.

[Spang]

Except no possible good could come from fucking kids. You can't say that about waterboarding, asshat.

I already have. Waterboarding is highly ineffective.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I err on the side of trusting the people doing the interrogating. They have more information than we do. We're armchair quarterbacks.

I suspect that if it was effective, legal and beneficial to us, the Bush administration would not have ceased this program in favor of more effective and traditional interrogation methods once it stopped listening to the Cheney/Rumsfeld faction of his administration. Once cooler heads prevailed and the reactionary, panicked influences were marginalized, we stopped doing this. Why? Did George W. Bush hate our freedoms and wish to make us less safe?

Also, I lol at the Kilmolls of the world who are so willing, even eager, to sink to the level of those they despise so much. That which separates us from the animals apparently doesn't exist in these people.

You are a prime example of why those types of people are rampant in the world. Turning the other cheek does nothing but get you slapped on that side too. You are not dealing with people who want to steal some money or hack computers for fun. I only hope that is is people exactly like you that end up their victims.

[Spang]

I only hope that is is people exactly like you that end up their victims.

You're no different than the evil terrorists you detest so much.

[Fairweather Pure]

You are a prime example of why those types of people are rampant in the world.

Apparently on this very msg board as well.

[Xatrei]

You are a prime example of why those types of people are rampant in the world. Turning the other cheek does nothing but get you slapped on that side too. You are not dealing with people who want to steal some money or hack computers for fun. I only hope that is is people exactly like you that end up their victims.

You're painting a picture of "people like me" that isn't accurate. I do not believe in turning the other cheek. I'm anything but a pacifist. I have no issue with a measured, proportional and just use of every tool at our disposal against those that have harmed our would like to harm us. However, we do not have to sacrifice our ideals or values to do that. When we engage in behavior that forces us to sacrifice our values because we're angry or afraid or whatever, we've lost. It's unfortunate that "people like you" can't get that. In either event, you need to grow up a little and stop conflating the notion that we should adhere to our core principles with weakness or pacifism. If you had any credibility to begin with, you'd lose it making arguments like this.

[Aabidano]

You are a prime example of why those types of people are rampant in the world.

"Those people" are rampant in so many parts of the world because they have an identifiable oppressor and no hope of bettering their situation by any other means.

By publicly legalizing torture we become even more of a target.

This leaves them wide open to the promise of an unscrupulous leader to tell them "blow these people up for a quick trip to paradise" and it seems like an acceptable idea. By not being the easily recognizable target we make ourselves safer, not by quasi legal maneuvering to make torture legal.

The vision of itself the US exports is critical. As a contrast, look at "Japan for export" vs. the "US for export". Japan is quite seriously screwed up internally, but them image they ship out is squeaky clean.

When I was doing some work in UAE the locals I worked with (Iranians, Pakistanis, Iraqis, etc..) couldn't believe I had only been married once and had been for many years, no mistresses, illegitimate children, wasn't rich, etc...

The "great satan" they see is what we show them, they don't have to make it up.

[Nick]

Hey dudes waterboarding is torture but I support Obama continuing that because he's awesome

[Aslanna]

Hey dudes waterboarding is torture but I support Obama continuing that because he's awesome

Sweet. Thanks. I'm sure he will be pleased to hear he has your continued support.

[Spang]

Hey dudes waterboarding is torture but I support Obama continuing that because he's awesome

I'd have to agree, he is pretty fucking awesome.

[Xyun]

We have a gigantic disconnect and I want to clarify. I'm not saying that Democrats' shit don't stink. We're not talking about some corrupt politician who stole some money or fucked some whore. We are talking about the United States government torturing people. Sure there are tons of enablers out there, present company included. But the issue here is the execution of torture by our government in our name. George W. Bush and his administration are fully and wholly responsible for this atrocity.

You are failing to grasp one little thing. It was not George Bush torturing people. It was the US military and CIA. If you think this is just during Bush's terms in office, then you are delusional. There is a reason they do not have the CIA reality series on TV. They do not want you seeing what they do because the US population has no stomach for what people have to do to keep this country safe. You bleeding hearts would have us completely disarmed and open to all and we would be attacked within months if you had your way.

Every President, whether Dem or GOP, has had people doing some serious dirty work. Some of it would make waterboarding look like something you would pay for by the hour in a mall. The problem with the Bush era is that he made enough mistakes that people leaked even more shit and it became public knowledge. Nothing more than that.

I don't buy the argument that the US military and/or CIA would willingly and knowingly disobey the orders of the President and Commander in Chief. If that is your position, then we'll have to agree to disagree. In any case, I believe that resorting to barbaric measures like torture is a sign of ineffectual and incompetent leadership. I'm not deluded into thinking that it hasn't happened before. But in the times that it has happened, I believe the culprits to be the lowest form of human beings, whether peon or president. If the point you are making is that George W. Bush was incompetent at being incompetent, I can't argue with you there. If you're incompetent enough to have to resort to secret torture, that's one thing... He was so incompetent he resorted to public torture. That's a whole other ball game, which is why we are discussing it here in the first place.

We have the death penalty in this country and I accept and agree with it. But cruel and unusual punishment is expressly prohibited in the constitution, which is why Guantanamo has had to exist.

Oh, and Nick, you are an ignorant child. Let me know when you decide to behave your age.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Weel I guess the question is, if/when something breaks in the news about torture during Obama's term, are you going to label him as incompetent or as a murderous inhuman barbarian? I truly don't know that the President would even be made aware of what interrogation methods are being used. I really think we would all be extremely shocked if we actually knew every detail from behind the scenes in this country. Hell, most of us would be absolutely floored if we even knew the details and frequency of special forces missions that happen across the globe for various reasons.

[Aabidano]

I truly don't know that the President would even be made aware of what interrogation methods are being used.

The Bush administration was maniacally secretive about things that didn't really matter that much, except to enhance executive power. Why they chose to stand in the road with their pants down on this issue is beyond me.

Perhaps because the intelligence community rebelled and refused to continue without legal protections...

Anyway, nothing is going to come of it, Bush isn't getting re-elected and the GOP seems incapable of moving onto a course which would make them relevant again in the near term.

I declare this conversation pointless, even by VV standards

[Funkmasterr]

I truly don't know that the President would even be made aware of what interrogation methods are being used.

The Bush administration was maniacally secretive about things that didn't really matter that much, except to enhance executive power. Why they chose to stand in the road with their pants down on this issue is beyond me.

Perhaps because the intelligence community rebelled and refused to continue without legal protections...

Anyway, nothing is going to come of it, Bush isn't getting re-elected and the GOP seems incapable of moving onto a course which would make them relevant again in the near term.

I declare this conversation pointless, even by VV standards

Yeah, no kidding. The problem with trying to have any serious conversations here is that after all the years of posting no one really respects anyone on the opposite side of the fence from them that posts here, only conversations between people with similar ideals will go anywhere. The last 20 posts might as well be:

Kilmoll: The sky is blue
Spang: All the injustice in the world makes me sad, k?
Xatrei: It's aquamarine
Fairweather: What kind of barbaric retard would say it's blue? Die plz.
Kilmoll: Blue
Xyun: I know everything, you're a retard
Fash: Are you people retarded?
Xatrei: AQUAMARINE!
Nick: America sucks, kay?
Kilmoll: BLUE YOU FUCKING PRICK!
Aslanna: DURRRR R R R R R R R (i can write more than ten words, see!)

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

pretty accurate




prick

[Spang]

[Jice Virago]

Yeah, no kidding. The problem with trying to have any serious conversations here is that after all the years of posting no one really respects anyone on the opposite side of the fence from them that posts here, only conversations between people with similar ideals will go anywhere. The last 20 posts might as well be:

Kilmoll: The sky is blue
Spang: All the injustice in the world makes me sad, k?
Xatrei: It's aquamarine
Fairweather: What kind of barbaric retard would say it's blue? Die plz.
Kilmoll: Blue
Xyun: I know everything, you're a retard
Fash: Are you people retarded?
Xatrei: AQUAMARINE!
Nick: America sucks, kay?
Kilmoll: BLUE YOU FUCKING PRICK!
Aslanna: DURRRR R R R R R R R (i can write more than ten words, see!)

That is bullshit and you know it. I know that I have personally agreed with you on a number of points, even rescently. The problem is you guys (the righties) have a big bunker mentality and view anyone who does not hold your same Fox News distributed views as a far left idealog, ie Nick. Trust me when I say, as a social liberal fiscal conservative, that Nick annoys me as much as he does you guys.

[Funkmasterr]

Yeah, no kidding. The problem with trying to have any serious conversations here is that after all the years of posting no one really respects anyone on the opposite side of the fence from them that posts here, only conversations between people with similar ideals will go anywhere. The last 20 posts might as well be:

Kilmoll: The sky is blue
Spang: All the injustice in the world makes me sad, k?
Xatrei: It's aquamarine
Fairweather: What kind of barbaric retard would say it's blue? Die plz.
Kilmoll: Blue
Xyun: I know everything, you're a retard
Fash: Are you people retarded?
Xatrei: AQUAMARINE!
Nick: America sucks, kay?
Kilmoll: BLUE YOU FUCKING PRICK!
Aslanna: DURRRR R R R R R R R (i can write more than ten words, see!)

That is bullshit and you know it. I know that I have personally agreed with you on a number of points, even rescently. The problem is you guys (the righties) have a big bunker mentality and view anyone who does not hold your same Fox News distributed views as a far left idealog, ie Nick. Trust me when I say, as a social liberal fiscal conservative, that Nick annoys me as much as he does you guys.

No, what is bullshit is how you are categorizing me. I am not far right, I have not done what you described in your post anytime recently. Yes I have agreed with you, and yes from time to time I agree with other people that I generally don't, but I don't think that discredits what I said.

[Spang]

I am not far right...

Prove it.

[miir]

You are more right than I am left.

[Funkmasterr]

You are more right than I am left.

That's what she said?

[Spang]

That's what she said?

Don't you want a serious conversation? Let's get fucking serious!

[Funkmasterr]

That's what she said?

Don't you want a serious conversation? Let's get fucking serious!

That's super inspiring coming from you.

[Fash]

Are you people retarded?

[Spang]

Are you people retarded?

Not until you showed up.