Bush commutes Libby sentence

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » July 4, 2007, 1:04 am

I'm not defending them. I just like how people blame Libby for outing Plame, when it was Armitage walking away whistling as nobody looked at him. The only "issue" I have with Libby's conviction was the focus on him being the one blowing Plame's cover during the trial. 1) he wasn't the source; 2) that's not what he was on trial for...but it seems like it is what the jury convicted him of for the very reason listed in this thread. He was the scapegoat. A scapegoat guilty of obstruction of justice and perjury, but not blowing a covert ops cover. They are two different crimes (well, three really).

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » July 4, 2007, 1:13 am

Boogahz wrote:I'm not defending them. I just like how people blame Libby for outing Plame, when it was Armitage walking away whistling as nobody looked at him. The only "issue" I have with Libby's conviction was the focus on him being the one blowing Plame's cover during the trial. 1) he wasn't the source; 2) that's not what he was on trial for...but it seems like it is what the jury convicted him of for the very reason listed in this thread. He was the scapegoat. A scapegoat guilty of obstruction of justice and perjury, but not blowing a covert ops cover. They are two different crimes (well, three really).

No, Libby didn't out Plame but he screened the person(s) who did virtually ensured that even if the name of the person comes out, there will be enough controversy and confusion (because of his statements) that it will probably never see the inside of a courtroom. In sports there's the old adage about taking one for the team and thats what Libby did here: Bush just made sure the hit isn't going to hurt.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 4, 2007, 4:02 am

Clinton has a huge laundry list:

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pardonchartlst.htm

yet everyone ignores it and accuses the republicans of bashing on him for getting BJs from an intern. Wake up! Bill Clinton was as dirty as they come. (so is Hillary)

Bush is a saint compared to Clinton. Cheney's an evil bastard but Clinton was much worse than Bush Jr. You'll go on glossing it over but it will remain there to be seen when you feel like opening your eyes to reality sometime down the road.

The implications from some of Clinton's pardons are huge but we'll never know since the pardoned (or eliminated) won't spill the beans.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 4, 2007, 9:46 am

2nd attempt to derail the thread. I've seen you derail the shit out of some threads Winnow, but this one is a lost cause. I don't know if you noticed the name of this forum, but I do know that changing the focus of discussion is a tactic you resort to every single fucking time you are supporting the losing position in an argument.

How bout you tell us whether you agree or disagree with Bush's decision to commute Libby's sentence, if you got the balls. My guess is, much like Fash you will crow like a fucking coward without ever answering the question.

Anyone with the slightest inkling of the ability to grasp reality sees this for what it is: a massive coordinated cover up of criminal activity by this administration. If there was a hint of decency in your soul, you would at least admit to that instead of playing this fucking game of turn back the clock to 19nobodygivesafuck.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 4, 2007, 11:04 am

Winnow wrote:Bush is a saint compared to Clinton.

Xyun, you're right man, people just prefer to wax lyrical out of fear of being branded !"Partisan"!. Sadly, people give legitimacy to this sort of thing by doing that. Obviously the main people behind this are, as Sueven alluded to, getting away scot free, however, that doesn't excuse this in the slightest.

An eyeroll is about the most your average guy is going to be able to give this, none of us can change it, Bush has proven himself to be the worst President in living memory, this is just another one of the many hundreds of shitty things he's done that have launched the US down the slippery slope (and far from the worst). The American people are beaten.

On the upside, he'll be out soon and we'll have a new asshole to deal with.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » July 4, 2007, 12:00 pm

Xyun wrote:2nd attempt to derail the thread.

Seriously.. it's Winnow. You're expecting way too much.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » July 4, 2007, 2:13 pm

Xyun wrote: How bout you tell us whether you agree or disagree with Bush's decision to commute Libby's sentence, if you got the balls. My guess is, much like Fash you will crow like a fucking coward without ever answering the question.

never crowed... I agree with it.

And how exactly is it NOT related to bring up the previous presidents generous use of pardons and commutations?

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » July 4, 2007, 2:21 pm

So, your point is that past presidential asshattery should be just cause to ignore and defend present presidential asshattery? Nice fucking logic.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » July 4, 2007, 2:32 pm

Fash wrote:And how exactly is it NOT related to bring up the previous presidents generous use of pardons and commutations?

So in essence because one guy abused the power, or at least use it in questionable fashion, its OK for others who come later to abuse it as well?

Fash · Post by **Fash** » July 4, 2007, 3:30 pm

I wasn't the one who mentioned it... I'm just saying it's relevant. It's not new and you're selectively outraged about it because of something else.

Traz-KOE · Post by **Traz-KOE** » July 4, 2007, 3:49 pm

Fash wrote:I'm just saying it's relevant.

Yeah, and they're (we're?) just asking..."how is it relevant?"

Braxter · Post by **Braxter** » July 4, 2007, 5:30 pm

Yeah, and they're (we're?) just asking..."how is it relevant?"

It is relevant. The presidency is more than a man - it is an institution. Every individual who takes on that role has a responsibility to carry out the duties of office with the interests of the nation in mind. Presidents of the U.S. are faced with tougher choices than practically any other person on Earth, and their decisions are closely scrutinized.

As such, presidents use all available resources when weighing options. The various cabinets were set up primarily because one man cannot be expected to be an expert in every field. This is why the DoJ has a pardon attorney office - they help presidents make decisions based on the merits of every individual case. When deciding whether the public interest would be best served by pardoning Marc Rich and Pincus Green, President Clinton consulted legal scholars, the DoJ, and other sources. But perhaps the greatest contributing factor was the precedent set by his predecessors. Clinton cites pardons in many infamous cases where the grantees had been convicted of much more heinous crimes than Rich & Green, including the Whiskey Rebellion insurgents, Vietnam War draft dodgers, and the Iran-Contra instigators.

The truth of the matter is that we want presidents who look to the past when making decisions. If a president ever has to authorize the use of a nuclear weapon, I would sure as hell hope that he or she has studied up on Hiroshima/Nagasaki. If a president has to use force on civilians, s/he better know everything there is to know about Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc.

So in addition to other resources, presidents tend to look to the past when making any important decisions. If previous presidents are alive, they are often consulted as experts. If they are dead, their actions (and the aftermath of those actions) are weighed in present cases.

That said, presidents should know that their decisions not only affect the present, but also the future. Every decision (be it going to war based on faulty intelligence, wiretapping U.S. citizens without proper legal permission, provoking Russia with a missile 'defense' shield, outing a covert CIA operative, firing disloyal federal attorneys, condoning torture, attempting to sell off rights to secure the nation's ports to known terrorist conspirators, no-bid contracting or vetoing key health care legislation that could save thousands of lives) can and will be used by future presidents to make their decisions. Just as what Bush has done should be criticized by future generations, what Clinton did should be criticized today, because it still affects us.

The constitution grants presidents clemency power because the founders thought that the decision to bestow clemency on criminals where it is deserved would be best left to one person rather than a body of people. This is the only power that any governmental branch has that is unfettered by checks-and-balances, and rightly so. If the Senate were forced to hold hearings in every pardon case, or the Supreme Court were compelled to weigh the constitutionality of each decision, disagreement would inevitably lead to inaction. Our laws are imperfect so individual cases that merit clemency should be given it, without partisan politics impeding the process.

It is, of course, a double-edged sword. Partisan politics do play a role. Despite their perceived good intentions, presidents do make mistakes. The country has to live with those mistakes, and we can only hope that future presidents learn from them.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 5, 2007, 11:51 am

Xyun wrote:2nd attempt to derail the thread. I've seen you derail the shit out of some threads Winnow, .

How is drawing the attention to a similar scenario done by the prior president derailing?

miir · Post by **miir** » July 5, 2007, 12:31 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:How is drawing the attention to a similar scenario done by the prior president derailing?

I'm willing to bet every president has made questionable pardons.
I also willing to bet that most pardons that Bush and Clinton made were not very noteworthy.

Nothing on the Clinton list jumps out as being anywhere near as controversial as this particular example.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong...

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » July 5, 2007, 3:36 pm

Therer is a world of difference between what Clinton did (which was unacceptable) and pardoning one of his own staffers who engaged in a coverup of illegal activities that occured DURING HIS ADMINISTRATION, BEFORE THE APPEALS PROCESS EVEN COMPLETED, AND MORE THAN A YEAR BEFORE LEAVING OFFICE. There is a WORLD of fucking difference, but please just keep repeating "But but but Clinton!" ad naseum until a few retards agree with you out of confusion. Anyone with half a brain can see that Scooter was basically sold to lie his ass off and that they would have his back.

Furthermore, this commution is worse than a pardon, because it hinders the civil case against himby keeping the appeal going forward. But that, just like hatching shit shit burger on 5pm before a five day weekend, was all part of the plan. There is a reason Cheney does not want his crap in the archives, because when all the dirty shit comes out in 20 years, his corpse would get violated. Christ, even Nixon knew when he went too far and had the descency to resign, these fuckers have no concience at all.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » July 5, 2007, 3:51 pm

Libby defense fund paid his $250k fine Tuesday, he is now free to go.

There is a difference between a person who was a financial scum and someone obstructing justice on a treason case during wartime.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 5, 2007, 4:08 pm

Jice Virago wrote:Therer is a world of difference between what Clinton did (which was unacceptable) and pardoning one of his own staffers who engaged in a coverup of illegal activities that occured DURING HIS ADMINISTRATION, BEFORE THE APPEALS PROCESS EVEN COMPLETED, AND MORE THAN A YEAR BEFORE LEAVING OFFICE. There is a WORLD of fucking difference, but please just keep repeating "But but but Clinton!" ad naseum until a few retards agree with you out of confusion. Anyone with half a brain can see that Scooter was basically sold to lie his ass off and that they would have his back.

The difference between Bush and Clinton is that Clinton just killed people that would potentially cause trouble for him.

see: Vincent Foster

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCH ... oster.html

but keep on a'gloss'in it over...Clinton was a great man! A badass quarter pounder eating president we should all aspire to be like. I'm sure people won't even bat an eyelash at this stuff.

Clinton was way more dirty than Bush Jr.

miir · Post by **miir** » July 5, 2007, 4:23 pm

Grasp at these.

I love conspiracy theories.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » July 5, 2007, 4:29 pm

and just what do you think you're doing?...

miir · Post by **miir** » July 5, 2007, 4:35 pm

I'm not exactly sure how 'pot calling the kettle black' applies at all to my contribution to this thread.

Your attempt at humor via the use of a linked image is neither applicable nor funny.
It's just confusing.

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » July 5, 2007, 4:36 pm

you too?

I guess I'll also take that source as evidence of the 9/11 conspiracy theory as well.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html

or

The 2004 US Elections: The Mother of all Vote Frauds
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/2004votefraud.html

and countless others including

"Funny, because NOW Bush claims his authority to pardon Libby comes from the Constitution."

NO way. Who knew?

Update: Libby paid off his $250,000 fine today, but it wasn't sure how he paid for it. Apparently the Libby defense fund raised 3 to 5 million dollars. Who knows, he could get paid for this whole mess. yay!

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » July 5, 2007, 5:50 pm

Jice Virago wrote:But that, just like hatching shit shit burger on 5pm before a five day weekend, was all part of the plan.

AAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!

WTF does this say?!?!?!?!?!?!?????

Normally I can make some sense of what people type when they get so heated that they break keys on the keyboard, but this sentence has me wondering...

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » July 5, 2007, 6:31 pm

It had me wondering as well, to be honest.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 5, 2007, 6:46 pm

The front page of CNN doesn't think bringing up Clinton is derailing things:

White House: Clinton shameless in Libby comments

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- White House spokesman Tony Snow fired back at former President Bill Clinton after Clinton charged that the Bush administration believes the law is a "minor obstacle" in the "Scooter" Libby case.

"I don't know what Arkansan is for chutzpah, but this is a gigantic case of it," Snow told reporters in an off-camera briefing Wednesday.

Webster's New World dictionary defines chutzpah as "shameless audacity; imprudence; brass."

President Bush on Monday spared former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby from federal prison, commuting his 30-month sentence for perjury, obstruction of justice and lying to federal agents investigating the 2003 exposure of former CIA operative Valerie Plame Wilson.

Bush left a $250,000 fine and two-year probation intact, but he left the door open to a pardon, which would clear Libby's record.

"You've got to understand, this is consistent with (Bush administration) philosophy," Clinton said during an interview on Des Moines news-talk station WHO.

Bush administration officials, he said, "believe that they should be able to do what they want to do, and that the law is a minor obstacle." VideoWatch Bill Clinton sound off on Bush's decision »

In an op-ed piece in USA Today on Wednesday, Snow defended Bush's action, charging that Clinton was "in a mad rush to push through pardons with dizzying haste -- 141 grants on Clinton's final day in office, part of 211 in the final nine weeks."

Clinton's flurry of last-minute pardons issued as he left office in 2001 -- particularly his absolution of fugitive financier Marc Rich -- sparked largely partisan outrage. Critics alleged that the pardon of Rich was linked to contributions raised for Clinton's presidential library by Rich's ex-wife.

Libby's defenders have pointed to Democratic support for Clinton during that period to accuse critics of Bush's commutation order of hypocrisy.

Clinton should keep is trap shut on this after his pardon-fest.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » July 5, 2007, 6:52 pm

It baffles me how people can totally ignore the issue at hand. What someone else did, whether it's right or wrong, has absolutely no bearing on the current issue. Bringing up previous examples only serves as some sort of lame deflection that's fooling nobody. Except those who voted for Bush perhaps.

And .. Uh.. Hello? CNN didn't really bring it up. Tony Snow did. And guess who his boss is?

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » July 5, 2007, 7:09 pm

Aslanna wrote:It baffles me how people can totally ignore the issue at hand. What someone else did, whether it's right or wrong, has absolutely no bearing on the current issue. Bringing up previous examples only serves as some sort of lame deflection that's fooling nobody. Except those who voted for Bush perhaps.

And .. Uh.. Hello? CNN didn't really bring it up. Tony Snow did. And guess who his boss is?

That is total bullshit. It is completely relevant, and here is the reason why: You, and every other fucking democrat on the face of this earth didn't make a big stink out of bj billy doin his thang when he was pimpin ho's in the white house and keepin his pimp hand strong - but then Bush goes and does something similar and you are on it like a fly on shit about how terrible it is.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 5, 2007, 7:11 pm

We learn from history that we learn nothing from history.
-George Bernard Shaw

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
-George Santayana

Our ignorance of history causes us to slander our own times.
-Gustave Flaubert

We need to get the Clinton lovers to admit that "Slick Willy" was a joke of a president before I'll accept that Bush is any worse. Hillary is a murderer and running for president. Why so concerned about Bush? He's almost done with his second term and we can then forget anything bad he did like people seem to be doing with Clinton. We need to focus on the future and prevent people like Hillary Clinton from getting anywhere near the Oval Office.

The problem is, Hillary was involved in a lot of shady things that went on during Bill Clinton's presidency yet no one seems to care...they care about Bush...it's too late for the Bill Clinton and George Bush but what we can do is stop the bad apples from getting into the presidency.

Focus on changing the powers of future presidents. Perhaps a president being able to pardon anyone they choose is a bit too much power?

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » July 5, 2007, 7:16 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:That is total bullshit. It is completely relevant, and here is the reason why: You, and every other fucking democrat on the face of this earth didn't make a big stink out of bj billy doin his thang when he was pimpin ho's in the white house and keepin his pimp hand strong - but then Bush goes and does something similar and you are on it like a fly on shit about how terrible it is.

Yeah. 3 days and 75 posts later. I can totally see how the 'fly on shit' analogy fits.

When did I ever say I was a democrat? Oh yeah that's right. If you disagree with Bush you're an evil liberal democrat.

But maybe I misunderstood your post. I have no fucking idea what "bj billy doin his thang when he was pimpin ho's in the white house and keepin his pimp hand strong" means. Did Bush get a blowjob or something?

miir · Post by **miir** » July 5, 2007, 7:21 pm

I'm curious.
Were you guys outraged when Clinton (and all the other presidents before him) did thier mass pardons before they left office? I don't recall seeing many (any) posts about it.

Perhaps it's because none of the pardons he made really compare to this particular incident.
Form what I have read, virtually all of those pardons were for people who had already spent quite a bit of time in prison and had served some or most of their sentence.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

As for the Marc Rich situation.
He had not resided in the US for nearly 20 years and the charges against him were pretty innocuous (tax evasion?).
I don't really see any similarity between the two.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » July 5, 2007, 7:44 pm

miir wrote:I'm curious.
Were you guys outraged when Clinton (and all the other presidents before him) did thier mass pardons before they left office? I don't recall seeing many (any) posts about it.

Perhaps it's because none of the pardons he made really compare to this particular incident.

um, or maybe the board did not exist at that time?

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » July 5, 2007, 8:25 pm

Boogahz wrote:
Jice Virago wrote:But that, just like hatching shit shit burger on 5pm before a five day weekend, was all part of the plan.

AAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!

WTF does this say?!?!?!?!?!?!?????

Normally I can make some sense of what people type when they get so heated that they break keys on the keyboard, but this sentence has me wondering...

Hatching this shit burger, is what I meant to say. Sorry, I am still recovering from surgery.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » July 5, 2007, 8:34 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:
Aslanna wrote:It baffles me how people can totally ignore the issue at hand. What someone else did, whether it's right or wrong, has absolutely no bearing on the current issue. Bringing up previous examples only serves as some sort of lame deflection that's fooling nobody. Except those who voted for Bush perhaps.

And .. Uh.. Hello? CNN didn't really bring it up. Tony Snow did. And guess who his boss is?
That is total bullshit. It is completely relevant, and here is the reason why: You, and every other fucking democrat on the face of this earth didn't make a big stink out of bj billy doin his thang when he was pimpin ho's in the white house and keepin his pimp hand strong - but then Bush goes and does something similar and you are on it like a fly on shit about how terrible it is.

Thats because the ecomony was in far better shape than it is now, unless of course you are one of Bush's oil buddies. Also, the majority of the world liked us at the time Slick Willy was in office. Most improtantly, he didn't turn the entire government into an Orwellian partisan shit house, where the #2 person in the justice department has a crackerjack box degree from Oral Roberts U. Finally, the man knew how to lie, which is to say, not as a fucking reflex action.

Fuck you Neocons for turning this country into a Police State of Jesusness. Fuck you for killing civil liberties and disreguarding the law, the will of the people, and even your own words for the sake of the almighty oil dollar. And fuck you for smuggly going along with it because you happen to be a borish wasp (Winnow), a partisan midwestern good ole boy (Mid), or just plan fucking too partisan/retarded to care (Fash). Treason, cronyism, and corruption motherfuckers, with a side of Jesus!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 5, 2007, 8:52 pm

Jice Virago wrote:Thats because the ecomony was in far better shape than it is now, unless of course you are one of Bush's oil buddies. Also, the majority of the world liked us at the time Slick Willy was in office. Most improtantly, he didn't turn the entire government into an Orwellian partisan shit house, where the #2 person in the justice department has a crackerjack box degree from Oral Roberts U. Finally, the man knew how to lie, which is to say, not as a fucking reflex action.

First, The stock market's as high as it's ever been. Plenty of fools buying iPhones with 55% profit margins out there to support it.

The majority of the world liked Clinton because he let the world get away with whatever they wanted during his presidency and Bush Jr had to clean up the mess. The majority of the world (including Americans) are morons and would rather read about Politics in the Enquirer than find out what's really going on. Clinton let his sexual urges cause a huge distraction right when we needed a president focused on the building terrorism threat. Face it. He enjoyed the limelight and the lifestyle more than anything.

Clinton's presidency was just a weak version of the tactic the Roman Emperors used by holding endless games in the Colosseum to keep the population's mind off of what was transpiring in the background. It only lasts for so long...in Clinton's case, long enough for him to scoot out of office before the shit hit the fan.

miir · Post by **miir** » July 5, 2007, 9:16 pm

The majority of the world liked Clinton because he let the world get away with whatever they wanted during his presidency and Bush Jr had to clean up the mess.

Pure comedy gold.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 5, 2007, 9:46 pm

miir wrote:
The majority of the world liked Clinton because he let the world get away with whatever they wanted during his presidency and Bush Jr had to clean up the mess.
Pure comedy gold.

How is it comedy? Many of Clintons inaction lead to 9/11. It's fact. Not speculation. Do some research son.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » July 5, 2007, 10:07 pm

lolz. Once again someone presents something as 'fact' with nothing to back it up and leaves it for the other person to research.

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » July 5, 2007, 10:59 pm

Perhaps a president being able to pardon anyone they choose is a bit too much power?

But think how many movies use the ability of the president to pardon in their plot. Air Force One would never have been created!

Siji · Post by **Siji** » July 5, 2007, 11:12 pm

Winnow wrote:First, The stock market's as high as it's ever been.

What the fuck does the over inflated stock market have to do with jack and shit for the average everyday citizen that can't afford a house, taxes, property insurance, health insurance, medical care, gas, food or find a decent fucking job? What the fuck does it have to do with a housing market that's in the shitter? Right.. because the market is over inflated, that < 30% approval rating means nothing. Everyone in this country is happy go fucking lucky. Nevermind the deficit we now have from our previous surplus, because gaw-fucking-damn the stock market is higher than it's ever been! Christ you're turning into as big an idiot as Midnyte.

Winnow wrote:Clinton let his sexual urges cause a huge distraction right when we needed a president focused on the building terrorism threat.

That, you fucking idiot, was the fault of the republican party that was out to get him out of office. I don't much recall him dropping his pants at a press conference and proclaiming that little Bill was a naughty fucking boy. The rest of the country didn't much give a fuck and yet we had it shoved in our faces every single night on TV because you fucktards had nothing better to concentrate on than a presidential blowjob.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » July 5, 2007, 11:17 pm

Look, it doesn't matter if you think Clinton was the devil incarnate, you're not showing any support for Bush's actions you're merely practicing some misdirection.

eg, if we were talking about a white man that killed 5 women, would a black man that killed 50 women be relevant to the discussion? Well... perhaps in some parts of the US.

As people said, you had your chance to whine about Bill back when he pardoned people, way, way, back. You were too busy running about high-fiving each other that you embarrassed him about getting a blowjob from a young woman who made housecalls to his office to do so. Really you were just jealous ><

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 5, 2007, 11:35 pm

It's not about that Z. You idiots can't continue to act like this shit is new and shocking. It happens every President.People in power use that power to benefit their friends. The valid point of bringing up a past occassion is to show nothing has changed. If it truly is the action that disapoints you, then focus on that. It is not Bush, nor Clinton that is to blame. It is the system. Do you honestly believe you can do something to change this system? Then start organizing and do something. Whining and complaining and acting like this is some new tragedy and one man or administration is to blame is exactly what they want you to do. The Dems want you to forget they have and will do the same thing. You morons fall for it every 4 years. It's laughable.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » July 5, 2007, 11:48 pm

I don't recall any President doing something of this magnitude. (pardoning someone trying to cover up the administration's wrong doings).

This > pardoning some drug user.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » July 5, 2007, 11:51 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:It's not about that Z. You idiots can't continue to act like this shit is new and shocking. It happens every President.People in power use that power to benefit their friends. The valid point of bringing up a past occassion is to show nothing has changed. If it truly is the action that disapoints you, then focus on that. It is not Bush, nor Clinton that is to blame. It is the system. Do you honestly believe you can do something to change this system? Then start organizing and do something. Whining and complaining and acting like this is some new tragedy and one man or administration is to blame is exactly what they want you to do. The Dems want you to forget they have and will do the same thing. You morons fall for it every 4 years. It's laughable.

No, because you see that a past action excuses a present one, that is laughable.

I wonder which I should go do first, rape me some asians or round me up some nigger slaves.

However, you also refuse to see any shades of grey so you don't see that this is (possibly) a far more serious breach of trust than whatever the fuck Clinton did years ago and didn't stir up any debate anywhere that I'm aware of.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 6, 2007, 12:17 am

It was a very big deal when Clinton did it. Again, you so easily forget. And please stop drawing these fucked up rape and racist analogies. They don't make any sense.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » July 6, 2007, 12:54 am

Lynks wrote:I don't recall any President doing something of this magnitude. (pardoning someone trying to cover up the administration's wrong doings).

This > pardoning some drug user.

BORDERS, William Arthur, Jr. Washington, D.C. Conspiracy to corruptly solicit and accept money in return for influencing the official acts of a federal district court judge (Alcee L. Hastings), and to defraud the United States in connection with the performance of lawful government functions; corruptly influencing, obstructing, impeding and endeavoring to influence, obstruct and impede the due administration of justice, and aiding and abetting therein; traveling interstate with intent to commit bribery

I think that this just might be a bigger deal than a drug charge. Have any of you saying that the shit on his list is no big deal even read past the 10th one on the list of 200 something ?

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » July 6, 2007, 12:59 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:It was a very big deal when Clinton did it. Again, you so easily forget. And please stop drawing these fucked up rape and racist analogies. They don't make any sense.

Well, at least one of them was legal in the past. The other may as well have been.

As for "it was a very big deal", really? What do you base that assertion on? Really. Show me something that shows some real outrage about it, news services still have stories from 2001 online.

Also, show me a Clinton pardon that is anything at all like "keeping your fall guy out of jail so he doesn't start singing like a canary". You stop drawing your fucked up analogies and I'll stop drawing mine. At least mine are deliberately ridiculous.

noel · Post by **noel** » July 6, 2007, 1:09 am

Xyun wrote:How can you fucking people claim to be patriots and not be disgusted by the giant shit Bush takes on the Constitution on such a regular basis. It's fucking nauseating.

Quoted for emphasis.

Fash, I'll hypothetically agree with you that Bush was, as you said, 'making things right'. The problem I have with this isn't that he 'made things right', it's that doesn't have a legal right to do so. It's just like the illegal spying bullshit without a warrant. I have no problem with spying on all the brown people in the country (sarcasm), JUST FOLLOW THE FUCKING PROCESS. That's why we have a process. That's why we have checks and balances in the government. Our founding fathers were most concerned about not making the role of President just another king. They succeeded in that by balancing his power with a legislative and judicial branch. The shit W. has pulled while in office is just that... total shit.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 6, 2007, 1:28 am

Zaelath wrote: Also, show me a Clinton pardon that is anything at all like "keeping your fall guy out of jail so he doesn't start singing like a canary". You stop drawing your fucked up analogies and I'll stop drawing mine. At least mine are deliberately ridiculous.

Vincent Foster...ah well, he was murdered so no need to pardon him. I guess he couldn't be bought.

Here's a scant few of the boatloads of things that happened after Foster's death:

65. The White House did not comply with police requests that Vince Foster's office be immediately sealed following his death.

66. Later that night, police officers would passively sit outside Foster's office, while White House aides freely went in and out. Since Foster's office was technically part of a crime scene, this was a gross violation of police procedures.

67. White House aides were seen ransacking Foster's office. A Secret Service agent saw Maggie Williams moving Foster's files to her office. No efforts were made by the Park Police to recover this potential evidence. Why was this criminal interference with a police investigation tolerated?

68. Foster's administrative assistant, Deborah Gorham, has testified that Foster's file index, the document listing everything contained in his files, has vanished. Several other documents and letters, known by Gorham to have been in Foster's safe, have also vanished.

69. Ms. Gorham testified that Bernie Nussbaum demanded the combination to Foster's safe after he learned of Foster's death. Technically, Foster's safe was part of a crime scene. It is possible it contained critical evidence.

70. It is not known whether Foster's appointment book was in his briefcase or his office. In any case, it has vanished. It would be considered important evidence in a homicide investigation. This is especially true in the case of Foster, whose whereabouts for the five hours preceding his death are unknown. Unaccountably, the disappearance of the appointment book has been ignored. As usual, the premature suicide conclusion insulated the investigation from a striking anomaly.

This is an entertaining read that I'm sure will be sent to the delete from memory file in your mind without a chance to digest it:

http://prorev.com/foster.htm

keep on ignoring it. everything's was wonderful when Clinton was president. He did nothing wrong as president...he was awesome...clinton was awesome....clinton was awesome...

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 6, 2007, 2:49 am

Xyun wrote:
How bout you tell us whether you agree or disagree with Bush's decision to commute Libby's sentence, if you got the balls. My guess is, much like Fash you will crow like a fucking coward without ever answering the question.

Winnow wrote:
blah blah clinton blah clinton blah blah blah clinton blah blah please try to care about what I have to say blah blah sorry it's so hard to speak with midnyte's cock in my mouth ... blah blah clinton blah.

It's too fucking easy to predict what you cowards will say.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 6, 2007, 4:45 am

Xyun wrote: How bout you tell us whether you agree or disagree with Bush's decision to commute Libby's sentence, if you got the balls. My guess is, much like Fash you will crow like a fucking coward without ever answering the question.

I disagree with Bush's decision to commute Libby's sentence. Bush should be booted out of office the same as Clinton should have been.

Bush should have whacked Libby ala Vince Foster style and saved himself the grief. Nobody believes in conspiracies so that's the way to go. Libby must have evidence that would be released if he were to suddenly drink Drain-O.

So there's your difference...republican deviants are smarter than democrat deviants so you can't just kill them off. Basically, everyone's A-OK with "Slick Willy" because he handled the cover ups better...well not really..it's there in plain view for anyone that cares to look.

So, I say again, for the good of our country, forget about Bush Jr, forget about Bill Clinton, and lets make sure Hillary doesn't get a whif of the White House again as President or Vice President. What's done is done. (Bill did far worse than Bush Jr though) Lets work together to see that it doesn't happen again in the future.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 6, 2007, 5:11 am

well at least you understand the perversity of justifying the actions of this administration by likening them to the actions of someone you despise. I don't want Hillary to be the president either that's why we should all vote for Barack Obama!