VeeshanVault

Winnow just shut the fuck up about it already and give up. Like I said way before, Linux is not the operating system for you. It's not designed to be what you want it to be. The fact that it doesn't live up to your misguided expectation of what it should be does not mean that it sucks. It's great for some applications, not so much for others. It is simply not what you want it to be, so just fucking give up and stop being a whiny cunt.

Unix was not designed to be a desktop OS, and by extension, neither was Linux. The desktop functionality is an add-on component. It's constantly evolving and getting better, but it's nowhere near the level of sophistication and maturity that you expect it to have. It's not intended for people who want things to "just work" ala Windows. What Apple accomplished in making Mac OS a useful, workable and sophisticated UI that sits on top of Unix is the closest thing you'll ever get to what you're looking for, and I guarantee you it will fall short of YOUR expectations for any number of reasons. Check back with Linux in 5 years or so and maybe you'll be more happy with it then.

Finally, if Linux is being unstable for you, I guarantee that you'll see the problem when you look in a mirror. If you have things set up properly (and every MAJOR distribution is set up properly for the most part straight off the install disks), you are not going to have stability issues. When you start messing around with various and sundry non-core functions and alpha / beta versions of software, you have to expect problems.

Xat, I fully agree with you that any Linux instability is due to the user and/or the features not really being ready for primetime.

The thing I find humorous about your post, and to be fair I haven't followed this entire thread, but I know you've been helping out quite a bit. Is that you're angry at Winnow for whining about Linux. Anyone who's used Linux for any amount of time at any level should have been able to tell that it was a romance that wouldn't last...

I can't believe I'm going to say this but: Winnow's not being unreasonable... Depending on the time of day and which web site you're reading, Linux might be described as the greatest OS of all time... easy to use, powerful, customizable, cures cancer, etc. In that same site, Windows might be described as a fiery dump from Satan himself. Some of that is true, but clearly some is not. It's not unreasonable for a tech savvy Windows user to read something along those lines and want to try it out.

As I said before:

Linux is a great and fantastic operating system for some very specific purposes that has the capability to be something more.

Linux is a horrible OS for lack of application support, lack of driver support, lack of game support, and general usability. If you're into spending lots of time tinkering with your OS, there's nothing better than Linux. If however, you need something you can give the 'average user' it sure as hell isn't Linux.

Until the majority of the Linux 'community' stops being a bunch of elitist fucktards who are more concerned with expounding all the ways Windows is bad instead of focusing on making Linux good (for everyone, not just them), it will NEVER be mainstream and will never be a useful OS for everyone like windows *can* be.

That said, let none of us forget that Linux does have the distinction of being Funkmasterr's favorite OS EVAR!

It's not that I'm angry at him, it's just that I'm sick of hearing him complain about stuff that he's completely clueless about. He's had unrealistic expectations of what to expect with Linux from the start of his Linux posts here. I've tried to help him through some of the issues he's had, but have mostly tried to get him to bring his expectations into a more realistic realm. He hasn't done this, and the majority of his criticisms have had virtually everything to do with either his own lack of knowledge or those unrealistic expectations that he can't / won't let go of.

I agree that, depending on the source, there's a lot of (mis)information out there about Linux, much of which paints an overly rosy picture of what Linux can do. However, many distributions like Ubuntu are at a point now that for the AVERAGE USER (emphasis for Winnow) who needs to check his email, browse the web and write some letters, view PDFs, listen to some music or burn a CD, things do work rather well out of the gate. That's what their intent is. They're not designed to be one-click solutions for the power user that wants / needs to do lots of customization to his install (3D desktops, multi-headed desktops, connecting to his home network, viewing 2 TB of pirated movies & porn). Going beyond the basics requires a certain amount of knowledge, and a commitment to spend the time to learn. That isn't for everyone, and it's obviously not for Winnow, which is fine, but to whine about it so much is just getting old. Someday, it might be the one-click super easy "just works" solution he's hoping for, but for now getting the most out of Linux that takes a bit of extra effort. Winnow doesn't understand this, and continues to complain about things that are beyond the capabilities of the current generation of desktop distributions.

Hehe, I agree.


I'd just like to again point out that while Winnow might not be enjoying his Linux experience, it's still Funkmasterr's favorite OS!

Xatrei wrote:It's not that I'm angry at him, it's just that I'm sick of hearing him complain about stuff that he's completely clueless about. He's had unrealistic expectations of what to expect with Linux from the start of his Linux posts here. I've tried to help him through some of the issues he's had, but have mostly tried to get him to bring his expectations into a more realistic realm. He hasn't done this, and the majority of his criticisms have had virtually everything to do with either his own lack of knowledge or those unrealistic expectations that he can't / won't let go of.

I agree that, depending on the source, there's a lot of (mis)information out there about Linux, much of which paints an overly rosy picture of what Linux can do. However, many distributions like Ubuntu are at a point now that for the AVERAGE USER (emphasis for Winnow) who needs to check his email, browse the web and write some letters, view PDFs, listen to some music or burn a CD, things do work rather well out of the gate. That's what their intent is. They're not designed to be one-click solutions for the power user that wants / needs to do lots of customization to his install (3D desktops, multi-headed desktops, connecting to his home network, viewing 2 TB of pirated movies & porn). Going beyond the basics requires a certain amount of knowledge, and a commitment to spend the time to learn. That isn't for everyone, and it's obviously not for Winnow, which is fine, but to whine about it so much is just getting old. Someday, it might be the one-click super easy "just works" solution he's hoping for, but for now getting the most out of Linux that takes a bit of extra effort. Winnow doesn't understand this, and continues to complain about things that are beyond the capabilities of the current generation of desktop distributions.

You've been helpful Xatrei and so was Nylith.

Remember, I understand that linux is great for backend stuff and it's original purposes etc. I mentioned early on that I'm taking the approach of a general newbie user of linux for someone that would be using this as their main OS...this is an especially important viewpoint with Dell choosing to use Linux on their computers in some cases and the popularity of Ubuntu.

These new distributions do mostly work...well not really, only one out of fifteen actually "worked out of the box" for a multitude of reasons, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there. For the 'average user" of which I would be considered for linux before doing any research, you're screwed, blued and tattoed, if you're not an expert linux user and ANYTHING at all goes wrong. They won't have the first clue about editing a xorg.conf file, and the linux help is geared toward those with some understanding of console commands which I, and all the other linux newbs, have no clue about either.

I don't think you accused me of being impatient or not taking the time to understand linux. I spent two entire weekends and most of my evenings in between them scouring the forums and fiddling with settings, trying (15) different distros.

My conclusion is that even for the most basic needs of an end user, linux isn't acceptable. It breaks with upgrades, hardware falls in and out of support between releases, xorg.conf gets modified by various apps which conflict each other, etc. I used a repository on Sabayon and instead of upgrading me from Beryl 2.0 to 2.1, it downgraded me to 1.4. I then read more and typed in three or four more command lines to update the repository in order to get the latest (something the typical end user isnt going to know how to do, and also found that i needed to download additional support files, which you almost never need with Windows) And, if a user wants one...just one extra app...say a comic reader to read .cbr/cbz formats...good luck!

Call it what you want' but linux is only good for a non linux geek as a dumb terminal in a work environment where system ops/IT people can babysit it.

It may sound like I'm knocking Linux but that's just my writing style. I'm dead serious though in my analysis of Linux being bad even for joe newbie, or grandma and grandad, well pretty much anyone that wants things just to work and wants to be able to add an application to do something beyond whatever you happen to get from the distribution...which is not "have it your way" style. If someone wants to read comics in Windows (or on a Mac even), I direct them to a website, say download the exe. double click on it, and have fun. The same for Linux would take me quite awhile to figure out, even after two full weekends and evenings of researching linux issues...I probably would have to compile it using Sabayon, and it's not in any repositories.

So, I feel I'm not being overly critical of Linux. It sometimes works "out of the box" but has multiple ways to break down and if it does, it won't be fixable by 90% of the population....or, as Noel and Voro mentioned, will take hours of fiddling.

Also, I see a lot of Windows bashing but my second point it that it doesn't deserve half of what it gets bashed for. Linux "experts" have tweaked their OS and can fix things in minutes that would take someone that doesn't feel like being and expert and just wants an OS to function with a nice looking/usable UI, hours to fix, if they can at all.

So, don't take things personally, although it's fun to debate. I'm not out to bash linux. I wanted and still want it to work. If I didn't, I wouldn't have spent so long with it.

Winnow wrote:Remember, I understand that linux is great for backend stuff and it's original purposes etc. I mentioned early on that I'm taking the approach of a general newbie user of linux for someone that would be using this as their main OS...this is an especially important viewpoint with Dell choosing to use Linux on their computers in some cases and the popularity of Ubuntu.

These new distributions do mostly work...well not really, only one out of fifteen actually "worked out of the box" for a multitude of reasons, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there. For the 'average user" of which I would be considered for linux before doing any research, you're screwed, blued and tattoed, if you're not an expert linux user and ANYTHING at all goes wrong. They won't have the first clue about editing a xorg.conf file, and the linux help is geared toward those with some understanding of console commands which I, and all the other linux newbs, have no clue about either.

I don't think you accused me of being impatient or not taking the time to understand linux. I spent two entire weekends and most of my evenings in between them scouring the forums and fiddling with settings, trying (15) different distros.

My conclusion is that even for the most basic needs of an end user, linux isn't acceptable. It breaks with upgrades, hardware falls in and out of support between releases, xorg.conf gets modified by various apps which conflict each other, etc. I used a repository on Sabayon and instead of upgrading me from Beryl 2.0 to 2.1, it downgraded me to 1.4. I then read more and typed in three or four more command lines to update the repository in order to get the latest (something the typical end user isnt going to know how to do, and also found that i needed to download additional support files, which you almost never need with Windows) And, if a user wants one...just one extra app...say a comic reader to read .cbr/cbz formats...good luck!

Call it what you want' but linux is only good for a non linux geek as a dumb terminal in a work environment where system ops/IT people can babysit it.

It may sound like I'm knocking Linux but that's just my writing style. I'm dead serious though in my analysis of Linux being bad even for joe newbie, or grandma and grandad, well pretty much anyone that wants things just to work and wants to be able to add an application to do something beyond whatever you happen to get from the distribution...which is not "have it your way" style. If someone wants to read comics in Windows (or on a Mac even), I direct them to a website, say download the exe. double click on it, and have fun. The same for Linux would take me quite awhile to figure out, even after two full weekends and evenings of researching linux issues...I probably would have to compile it using Sabayon, and it's not in any repositories.

So, I feel I'm not being overly critical of Linux. It sometimes works "out of the box" but has multiple ways to break down and if it does, it won't be fixable by 90% of the population....or, as Noel and Voro mentioned, will take hours of fiddling.

Also, I see a lot of Windows bashing but my second point it that it doesn't deserve half of what it gets bashed for. Linux "experts" have tweaked their OS and can fix things in minutes that would take someone that doesn't feel like being and expert and just wants an OS to function with a nice looking/usable UI, hours to fix, if they can at all.

So, don't take things personally, although it's fun to debate. I'm not out to bash linux. I wanted and still want it to work. If I didn't, I wouldn't have spent so long with it.

The problem is that you're anything BUT the average user for which distributions like Ubuntu are geared. You want bleeding edge customization that the typical desktop user doesn't care about. You want applications that the average user doesn't care about, and you want to attach to network storage that the average user does not use, or if they do, their needs are met by the built in tools for network browsing. I know of several absolute PC neophytes who use Ubuntu for their desktop with no problems. Of course, these are users who don't need or want the crap you're consumed with having work. It is stable, and more than meets their needs on TYPICAL hardware (systems purchased off the shelf from the local big box electronics store).

Don't delude yourself into thinking that your computer use is anywhere near the realm of typical. Typical users are people like my sister, mother-in-law or my grandfather. They check their e-mail, look at the web, watch youtube videos and do some instant messaging. They don't tweak their systems - hell, they can't even be bothered to update their systems with security patches. Ubuntu, and pretty much any other mainstream distribution, would more than meet their needs (e-mail, web, calendar, personal finance, light word processing). I would have no qualms at all about installing Ubuntu or Open/SuSE or Fedora Core on my mother-in-law's computer, and would fully expect her to be able to meet all of her computing needs with only a slight bit of adjustment.

You tinkered around with a bunch of random distributions, of which only a handful are proper, mainstream distributions (Clue: Sabayon is not a mainstream distribution), and have deemed yourself to be knowledgeable enough to make an educated proclamation of Linux's worthiness for the desktop. Here's the rub, though: your tinkering for a few hours doesn't mean jack shit. You've fucked around with retarded, non-mainstream crap for the most part, and I'd be willing to wager that you still don't have half a clue about the most trivial of tasks on a Linux box.

One of your biggest complaints seems to be with getting Beryl to work or with instability related to your use of Beryl. For fuck's sake, the latest stable release of Beryl is version 0.2.0, not 2.0 or 2.1 - VERSION ZERO FUCKING POINT TWO POINT ZERO. It's pre-release software that's somewhere between the alpha and beta stage. Do I really need to continue pointing out what a fucking crybaby retard you are for whining about pre-release software not working properly?

You are critical because you have had some problems with several distributions due to your specific hardware setup, and make the leap that this means that it doesn't / won't work for the majority of other people likely to try it out. Not only is this an insane logical flaw, it is just pure bullshit. Novell, Redhat and Canonical are not in the business sponsoring or distributing products that don't work for most people.

Believe me, I understand that it's not ready for people like you, the home user who wants or needs a greater level customization, frills & such. That's fine. I'm confident that as the distributions continue to develop, they'll get to the point where they can and do meet the needs of the home power-user. As I've been telling you for nearly two weeks now, however, they're not there yet. For now users that want a higher degree of customization or sophistication, you'll have to work for it. For those that are not willing to work for it, they should stick to Windows.

I don't care that you don't like Linux. Lots of people don't. I like Linux, but I use Microsoft products as much or more than I use Linux. You don't see me bashing Windows or Microsoft in general. I've made a nice chunk of money over the years with MS products. As stated previously, my early professional background is in administration of and development for Unix systems. I've helped dozens of people make the switch to Linux (at their request, I'm no evangelist). I fully recognize and understand Linux's shortcomings - you do not, your claims to the contrary not withstanding. I'm not blindly defending a system that I feel is under attack. I'm just not going to let your ridiculous assertions and poorly reasoned criticisms of the OS go unchallenged. Some of the points you've raised are legitimate issues that are aggressively being addressed by various Linux vendors and development groups. Most of your complaints, though, are just off base, and have their roots in your lack of expertise with the OS. I'm not taking anything you say personally, I just don't have much tolerance for the assumptions and generalizations that you use as the basis for your argument.

For your edification Winnow; the "average" user can't work out how to burn an mp3 to a CD in such a way that they can play it in a normal CD player.

You're not an "average" user with "average" expectations. You're a Windows devotee that has taken a *LOT* more time to work out how to do the various legal and illegal things you like to do with Windows that you have "working out how to run Xorg without fucking everything up".

BTW, Mr "average" user. When's the last time you had a 3D rotational desktop system on any machine? Let alone a newbie?

You funny. Eat cookie.

I like your style Xatrie. Nice response!

Zae: the rotating cube is the only reason Linux caught my attention. Advances in the User Interface is one of the few reasons anyone using a Mac or Windows would take notice of Linux so "bleeding edge" is one way to get the OS in the non linux user's eye.

I don't think networking to a media server or wanting to write to an NTFS is too far beyond the scope of what a newbie might want to do.

I will admit, and Xatrie did a nice job pointing it out, that a lot of my issues were due to video drivers and beta software...I will point out that as I researched the problem, the issues I ran into with the nVidia drivers began in 2005 and still haven't been fixed so slow progress on fixes doesn't help things...I suppose you can respond that nVidia and ATi drivers aren't supported but lets be serious...those are the two main video card players and need to be supported well in the linux world unless linux is never going to enter the realm of 3D.

That's my beef...and you are incorrect in that I'm not familiar with the popular distros. I spent most of my time with Ubuntu and Kubuntu specifically because they are the most popular distributions so I wanted to use the distribution that had the most support for new users.

I dunno...until you can add an application to the selections that come with a particular distribution without watching Revenge of the Nerds first, Linux won't be good for even the common user. Even they must have room for a little wiggle room. I use a comic reader as an example because it happens to be my hobby. ...Someone else may collect bugs and want to install a cool bug collector database program on their system...whatever it is, it's not happening on Linux for the "average user" as things stand currently. Ease of use and flexibility to do what I wanted was my interest in trying out Linux over the past few weeks.

Here's the latest mostly useless effects from the latest Beryl/Compiz remerger.

Fire paint! Now there's a useless effect!

I do like the zoom and the rain drops are neat for a screensaver or something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Fbk52Mk1w

Might stick a linux distro on a thumb drive some day as a portable OS with multimedia on it or something with USB thumb drives getting so big for cheap. The bootable CD/DVD versions seem to be one of strengths of Linux since they do a good job booting up on most PC configurations. Might be nice not to have to worry about someone you're visiting having the codecs, etc to play your media.

Of those, the only two plug-ins I'd consider using on a regular basis is 'expo' (a far better workspace switcher than the annoying 3d cube) and the 'blur' (for windows without focus). As usual, the rest looks great, but all that fluff just becomes annoying once the novelty of playing around with it wears off.

I got the urge to do Linux again this weekend, and surprisingly it's looking good this time.

I went with Ubuntu 7.10 Desktop, and after a painless install, everything worked. It was somewhat unintuitive to select my wireless network, but I did figure that out. Once online I was able to get the Nvidia driver loaded.

Then I went to town with VMWare, and configured a full windows box too... Minor difficulties getting the NAT routing to work, but I got that too... Since I'm not playing any 3D games, I think this solution will work for a while.

just and FYI. There is no PicLens plug-in for Linux Firefox yet but they're working on it!

If they ever come out with reliable Mac emulations software for windows I'd be happy. There are one or two Mac apps I'd like to use but that's about it and they're specialty apps. (Unison for images on usenet for one as it has a unique folder online preview/grouping of images..although the Mac interface for it sucks...no hot key ability so you ahve to click the button which is a huge inconvenience)

Linux would be nice if it ran Mac apps. I'd install a version of VMware in Windows Vista if it could run Unison.

Winnow wrote:If they ever come out with reliable Mac emulations software for windows I'd be happy.

I would've thought all the hurdles to get there were eliminated when Apple went Intel, since they no longer have to emulate powerPC, but it still seems a distant goal... haven't heard shit about it.