The Two Towers

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » December 21, 2002, 9:52 pm

Out of both of the movies, the only two things I have been dissappointed about are the two or three chapters they cut out between frodo leaving his house (in the first book) and when he reached bree. I really wanted to see tom bombadil, and the wight, and the willow holding them in and all that.. and in the second movie, cutting it short from the book. SPOILER if you havent read the third book

I think it was a vital spot to end the second book where you thought frodo was dead, when the books first got popular the words "frodo lives" were spread across the whole damn world, and I think its odd to stop it before that. The only real reason I can come up with is that they wanted to keep all three movies about the same length. But hey, they did pretty damn well as far as I am concerned, and I am a fanatic.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » December 22, 2002, 3:09 am

Great movie. I enjoyed the first one more than the second, mainly because of the variety in the first one. I found a few times in Two Towers where I noticed that the movie was getting long.. Never noticed that in the first one. The only thing I can think of that I didn't really care for was the stars with Gandalf (mentioned above) as it seemed like a total Contact rip-off and the dead spirits in the swamp.. I thought they looked cheesy when Frodo fell in and they swarmed. That could have been done much better.

I also agree that they should have cut the movie with people thinking Frodo was dead.

Overall an excellent movie imo.

murr · Post by **murr** » December 23, 2002, 1:02 am

Actually if you watch the extended FOTR dvd they mention Narsil's reforging, but I'm not sure if he was given it already or not. It's *very* possible that he has it and PJ is simply choosing to highlight Aragorn's character/name much more than his sword. I hope that he receives it (Arwen riding to him in Minas Tirith, no doubt) and owns with it in ROTK, but we'll see.

noel · Post by **noel** » December 23, 2002, 6:48 am

In the special edition of the FotR, Elrond mentions that it can be reforged, but it is not.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » December 23, 2002, 7:51 am

Yup...which has cause further plot modifications...Remember he whipped out Andruil (Narsil Reforged) on Eomer and said basically, I am Elendil's Heir you with me or against me, decide quickly...

I suppose we don't see it 'til Minas Tirith?...

noel · Post by **noel** » December 23, 2002, 8:39 am

Arborealus wrote:Yup...which has cause further plot modifications...Remember he whipped out Andruil (Narsil Reforged) on Eomer and said basically, I am Elendil's Heir you with me or against me, decide quickly...

I suppose we don't see it 'til Minas Tirith?...

Ummm, check my earlier post in this thread which discusses many of the inconsistencies. I quote two scenes that were ruined because he's not wielding Anduril, Flame of the West.

kurzweil · Post by **kurzweil** » December 26, 2002, 4:18 pm

I'm curious how they're going to do the death of the Witch King in movie 3, since the hobbits didn't go to the barrows in FotR.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » December 26, 2002, 4:30 pm

i just hope they leave in the stuff about the Shire at the end. i can see how in a movie for American audiences that would be glossed over at best. Too much fading action at the end just isn't our style.

once we cum, we want to just roll over and watch sportscenter

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 26, 2002, 6:32 pm

Overall, I liked LOTR2 and give it the edge in entertainment value over LOTR1.

Couple things that didn't seem right...

Aragorn floating down the river unconscious and managing to keep his head above water all that time.

The ENT scenes made me feel like I was watching Neverending Story.

When the Ent carrying the two hobbits arrives at Isengard, the ENTs are still undetermined as to what they will do. He spots all the downed trees and lets out a scream and instantly there are ENTS everywhere. Do they have teleporation powers? From watching the ENT carrying the hobbits, they seemed slow as molassis.

When Aragorn and the King ride out from Helms Deep, they blast through Orcs like nobody's business literally cutting a path through jam packed Orcs. Those are some powerful horses to plow through that.

All of the heroes seemed to be given about 45 seconds to die right in the middle of the battle with orcs everywhere. (even with adjusting for slow motion)

----
Gollem was very well done.

I got the biggest laugh out of Legolas and the dorf counting their kills. In this incredibly intense battle, there's Legolas smiling with 17 kills, responding to the dwarfs boast that he'd already killed 2.

I'm not sure if it's meant to be like this in the books, but from the movies, it seems Legolas absolutely kicks ass. I don't know where he got all those arrows from but it was fun to watch.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » December 26, 2002, 6:48 pm

Endless Quiver!

Truant · Post by **Truant** » December 26, 2002, 8:26 pm

Voronwë wrote:once we cum, we want to just roll over and watch sportscenter

fucking priceless

500 points for that one.

Winnow wrote:When Aragorn and the King ride out from Helms Deep, they blast through Orcs like nobody's business literally cutting a path through jam packed Orcs. Those are some powerful horses to plow through that.

You obviously haven't spent much time around horses. I don't care if you're a linebacker, the horse will knock you on your ass. Now add to the equation they are all riding warhorses, and it makes perfect sense. Also that the horses are coming downhill adding more force to their run while the orcs are packed like sardines on the bridge giving them little space to hold or maintain ground or balance....etc etc etc

kurzweil · Post by **kurzweil** » December 27, 2002, 1:46 am

Just heard from a friend that the Paths of the Dead *will* be in the next movie; he got the Making of Lord of the Rings Trilogy book for Christmas.

noel · Post by **noel** » December 29, 2002, 11:23 pm

Winnow wrote:I'm not sure if it's meant to be like this in the books, but from the movies, it seems Legolas absolutely kicks ass. I don't know where he got all those arrows from but it was fun to watch.

Wood-elven rangers/warriors decimate. Recognize.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » December 30, 2002, 12:32 am

When Legolas did that fancy swing up onto the horse... omg. I never wanted to be a horse so bad in my life.

noel · Post by **noel** » December 30, 2002, 3:35 am

Sunserae wrote:When Legolas did that fancy swing up onto the horse... omg. I never wanted to be a horse so bad in my life.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » December 30, 2002, 11:40 am

Aranuil wrote:
Winnow wrote:I'm not sure if it's meant to be like this in the books, but from the movies, it seems Legolas absolutely kicks ass. I don't know where he got all those arrows from but it was fun to watch.
Wood-elven rangers/warriors decimate. Recognize.

stop trying to piggy back warriors onto this bandwagon of ownage!

noel · Post by **noel** » December 30, 2002, 1:16 pm

Voronwë wrote:
Aranuil wrote:
Winnow wrote:I'm not sure if it's meant to be like this in the books, but from the movies, it seems Legolas absolutely kicks ass. I don't know where he got all those arrows from but it was fun to watch.
Wood-elven rangers/warriors decimate. Recognize.
stop trying to piggy back warriors onto this bandwagon of ownage!

Actually, I was trying to piggy-back Rangers.

In Tolkienian lore, the term "Ranger" is only applied to two groups of people:

The Dunedain - The Rangers of the North, chief of which was Aragorn.

and

The Rangers of Ithilien - a Gondorean military unit, captained by Faramir.

There were no elven-rangers (which makes me sad btw). They were warriors, of if you prefer archers.

Drolgin Steingrinder · January 10, 2003, 4:16 am

There was something annoying me from the first time I saw it that I couldn't quite put my finger on. I saw it again the other day and found out what it was:

Elrond suddenly has a personality. Instead of being a somewhat aloof, mysterious character, he is suddenly the dad of the girl next door who doesn't want his kid to get in trouble ... wtf is this about?

It seriously pissed me off, that change - I wouldnt say it ruined the movie for me but it definately detracted from its quality. But of course, I have much h8 for whatever crack-pipe-hitting-asshole of a caster who thought up Hugo Weaving in the first place...

Cotto · Post by **Cotto** » January 10, 2003, 7:06 am

It's been a while since I read the book. But was Elrond supposed to be aloof? Sort of, unemotional elf lord, thing?

/agree Drolgin

Get too many images of "Welcome to Rivendell...Mister Anderson" going on.

Hoarmurath · Post by **Hoarmurath** » January 10, 2003, 12:16 pm

Well I think that Tolkien meant for elves in general to be rather aloof as a consequence of their immortality.

Also, keep in mind that Elrond himself is a half-elf, along with his brother, Elros. While Elrond chose the immortal life of the elves, his brother Elros chose the short life of Men, and became the first King of Men. How would you feel if you chose to be immortal but your only brother chose a mortal life? Now he is faced with his daughter choosing a similar fate.

Also, Aragorn is related (albeit rather distantly) through the line of Kings all the way back to Elros. So in some backwater fashion, Aragorn and Arwen are sorta related.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » January 10, 2003, 9:11 pm

Aranuil wrote:There were no elven-rangers (which makes me sad btw). They were warriors, of if you prefer archers.

Elrohir and Elladan (Elrond's Sons) were both listed among the Rangers of the North...

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » January 17, 2003, 7:30 am

Hugo Weaving would have been fine as elrond if he hadnt done matrix. Everytime i think of him i think ofhim in matrix. Only other movie he was in was percilla: queen of the desert. And it wasnt popular enough for him to be remembered as that character...but he will always be remembered as the the agent from Matrix(did he have a name?)

Legenae · Post by **Legenae** » January 17, 2003, 2:44 pm

Keverian FireCry wrote:Hugo Weaving would have been fine as elrond if he hadnt done matrix. Everytime i think of him i think ofhim in matrix.

Not the first time I've seen someone comment on that. I guess I should be happy that I haven't seen the Matrix yet.

kurzweil · Post by **kurzweil** » January 17, 2003, 3:46 pm

Keverian FireCry wrote:Hugo Weaving would have been fine as elrond if he hadnt done matrix. Everytime i think of him i think ofhim in matrix. Only other movie he was in was percilla: queen of the desert. And it wasnt popular enough for him to be remembered as that character...but he will always be remembered as the the agent from Matrix(did he have a name?)

agent smith

Estrosiath · Post by **Estrosiath** » January 22, 2003, 2:57 pm

As a movie - very entertaining.
As an adaptation of the book? Let's just say 'The two towers' is just about all that remains of the novel. And don't give me the time constraints bullshit, he could have cut out the whole of bringing Frodo to Gondor with a Faramir that was a carbon copy of his brother ( he's the total opposite in the novel ).
Don't get me wrong - I loved it. But as an adaptation, it sucks hardcore. Fellowship of the ring was much closer.

kurzweil · Post by **kurzweil** » January 24, 2003, 5:18 am

I wonder how the DVD will compare to the book. If FotR was any indication, the DVD will match a lot closer.

kurzweil · Post by **kurzweil** » January 24, 2003, 5:19 am

Hm, since FotR shipped with bookends of the Argonath, maybe TT will ship with bookends shaped like the towers of Sauron and Saruman? Start building your own little diorama of middle earth on your bookshelf.

Cotto · Post by **Cotto** » January 24, 2003, 7:34 am

My other half noticed this some time ago in the film.
The hilt of Narsil and the hilt of the sword Aragorn is using in the rest of the film, is the same (or appears so). So could it be, that while Elrond mentioned it could be reforged, it was actually , and just not mentioned.

I think that, the reason they didnt end with Shelob 'killing' Frodo is because, once you read the Return of the King you get halfway through the book before all the action ends (the whole Ring action anyway). I'm thinking that Peter Jackson is going to have the Fires of Mount Doom very, close to the end of the film. And then a wee epilogue about what happens after, rather than Tolkiens in-depth explanation of what happened to everyone.

kurzweil · Post by **kurzweil** » January 30, 2003, 2:31 pm

Cotto wrote:My other half noticed this some time ago in the film.
The hilt of Narsil and the hilt of the sword Aragorn is using in the rest of the film, is the same (or appears so). So could it be, that while Elrond mentioned it could be reforged, it was actually , and just not mentioned.

Nope. They're different. The hilt of Narsil has a fan-shaped pommel with a hole in it. Aragorn's sword has a solid pommel.

edit: and for all your (fullsized) LotR weapon needs:
http://www.clandestine-crystals-candles ... gs8x6.html

Sartori · Post by **Sartori** » April 25, 2003, 9:26 pm

...just wanted to add something to this old thread regarding the ending of Two Towers.

I don't remember where I read it, but in an interview with Elijah Wood he states the reason for not ending the movie with the Shelob encounter. Basically, since he spends most of the movie in a dual-personalities-in-conflict kind of role they wanted to preserve that duality.

Personally, I could care less either way. Would have made a great cliffhanger for the Two Towers, and will probably make a great opener for the Return of the King.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » September 5, 2003, 3:27 pm

Just heard from a friend that the Paths of the Dead *will* be in the next movie; he got the Making of Lord of the Rings Trilogy book for Christmas.

There was a bit of a preview on the Two Towers DVD. It basically just showed Aragorn, Legolas and Aragorn taking that trip. Didn't a bunch of Rangers go with him instead of just the three companions?

I just finished rereading it and now some of the changed stuff is more bothersome than it was to me previously. It still makes for a good movie but it's not real true to the books. FoTR wasn't too bad but TT swerved even further. I think in 25-30 years someone will remake it even better. If the contract with New Line or whoever allows that. I don't know how movie-making magic happens!

I don't mind additions, for example the Warg attack. In the book the journey to Helms Deep was pretty uneventful, so adding some action didn't hurt things. But having Aragorn fall off the cliff was a bit much. It also slowed things down with having 3 'dream sequences'/flashbacks almost back to back.

The Faramir thing was the biggest mistake. I think Peter Jackson basically added it as filler so that they wouldn't get to Shelob's lair too soon and he could hold it over to the next movie. I guess it will make for an exciting opener to the movie.

Not having Narsil already reforged makes no sense.

Actually, maybe even bigger than Faramir, is having Frodo expose the ring to the Nazgul at Osgiliath. Part of the whole strategy was Sauron NOT knowing who had the ring or where they were. Towards the end Sauron thought Aragorn had it and that left his attention gazing outwards instead of in the lands of Mordor. Now he knows exactly where it is and who has it. Sam summed it up nicely; "This is all wrong. By rights we shouldn't even be here." (Or close to that). If only someone would have told Mr. Jackson that.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » September 5, 2003, 4:13 pm

There's a lot to cover in the last movie.. let's hope there aren't long drawn out battles like Two Towers. They could have cut 15 minutes out of those and done just fine. (Yeah, I know - the biggest battle is still coming..)

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » September 5, 2003, 6:02 pm

I cant remember who had the higher kill count in the books between Legolas and the dorf, anyone remember? I thought it was up in the 70's for em both.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » September 5, 2003, 7:26 pm

Siji wrote:There's a lot to cover in the last movie.. let's hope there aren't long drawn out battles like Two Towers. They could have cut 15 minutes out of those and done just fine. (Yeah, I know - the biggest battle is still coming..)

Well in theory it should be larger and longer since that was the major battle in the book. Helm's Deep was a bit drawn out though. I don't agree with the elves coming to help them there, either. It seems a bit insignificant to some but it really ends up changing the politics laid out in the book.

They could skip Frodo being captured by the Orcs and being held in Cirith Ungol. They wouldn't lose a whole lot of the plot, really. As far as the movie story goes, anyway. The last book (Part 6) Jackson could cover in an hour or less, probably. While he could skip the scouring of the shire part, as some suggest he may, that leaves Sarumans demise uncovered unless it's done somewhere else.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » September 5, 2003, 7:50 pm

Story 'round the campfire says that Saruman will die in this one. However, none of this information is solid.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » September 6, 2003, 5:04 am

There's no way he can skip the Shire at the end. I'm sure he'll skip Bree(sp?),but the ending in the Shire was a huge part of the overall story.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » September 6, 2003, 5:36 am

The scouring of the shire is NOT in the third film from all I've heard.

It'll be Voronwe-style right after the big show

Anyway some thoughts:

The Faramir thing was the biggest mistake

I gues I just don't get it regarding the everyone's panties bunching over Faramir. He gave out harsh choices in the book and they were played well here. We only saw Faramir in battle situations so yeah he's going to be harsh. I think we'll see more of his 'true' character in the third film.

Not having Narsil already reforged makes no sense

But it also isn't a problem. It was little more than a plot device til the very end anyway (see the examples Aranuil quoted yonks back). It's classic movie setip/payoff: Put aside what you know about Aragorn and watch the films: there has been very little other than fleeting allusions to Aragorn's heritage. It's being downplayed til the third film where he'll basically go "fuck it yeah I'm King" and someone (Arwen) will appear with Anduril, give it some He-Man posing, Brego turns into Battlecat and hey nonny nonny.
Arguably that's a more dramatic and satisfying telling of that story cos for the most part the LotR books are pretty badly written. It definitely works better in movie terms IMO.

Actually, maybe even bigger than Faramir, is having Frodo expose the ring to the Nazgul at Osgiliath. Part of the whole strategy was Sauron NOT knowing who had the ring or where they were. Towards the end Sauron thought Aragorn had it and that left his attention gazing outwards instead of in the lands of Mordor. Now he knows exactly where it is and who has it

So the last thing the Nazgul knew was that it was in the hands of a Hobbit who was being taken to Gondor. Still plenty of room for confusion on the part of Mr Eyeball. Again it was a dramatic explanation of the ring's power and works in movie terms. Plus I don't actually remember Sauron ever thinking Aragorn had the ring but I do remember him thinking Pippin had it. My only memory of why Sauron's eyes were on Aragorn was because of the massive fucking army right behinid him

Anyway I don't mean to necessarily pick on anyone in particular here but I think a lot of the nitpicking is pretty silly especially about Faramir who sems to be everyone's biggest hero and I just don't care

I guess I'm less interested in treating the original texts as if they were scripture because as much as I like he story the books are a pretty bloody unpleasant read in places. Probably because it was written by an academic not a novelist.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » September 6, 2003, 5:39 am

Oh yeah and between myself and my chums we've bought the following full-size replica swords from the films:

Glamdring (me - best of the range IMO)
Witch King Claymore (me - fuckin monster weapon looks really cool - 57" overall length and eeeeeevil)
Aragorn's Ranger Sword - (2 mates have it, very clean lines on this one)
Hadhafang (Arwen's sword) - a friend bought this for his wife for her 30th and it's a thing of beauty. And razor feckin sharp. Heavy for a bird's sword too. . .

I was damn tempted by the Orc Cleaver but they're pretty pricey and 2 was my limit

a_guide · Post by **a_guide** » September 6, 2003, 6:49 am

I'm so jealous right now

*hugs* - a_guide

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » September 6, 2003, 1:52 pm

Saruman thought Pippen had it, not Sauron.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » September 6, 2003, 11:30 pm

Anyway I don't mean to necessarily pick on anyone in particular here but I think a lot of the nitpicking is pretty silly especially about Faramir who sems to be everyone's biggest hero and I just don't care

It's more about P. Jacksom changing the story, for no apparent reason, than it is about Faramir being our biggest hero. The reason that everyone mentions it is because it's one of the most obvious examples. I'm looking forward to the commentary on the extended TT DVD. I hope the screenwriters discuss why that and other things were changed.

And I'll agree, none of the changes really made for a bad movie. Taken as just a movie it's no big deal. But when viewed as an adaption of a very popular mythology a lot of the changes don't make sense and actually change they story as crafted by the original author. There's nothing inherently wrong with a little artistic license but that's not above criticism and should be expected.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » September 8, 2003, 10:13 am

Again it was a dramatic explanation of the ring's power and works in movie terms

I think there's examples aplenty showing the effect of the ring.. by the time the first movie was over, you knew the strength of the ring and what it did to the person keeping it. More examples, I don't believe we need; especially ones that didn't exist in the books.

Liv Tyler's character should have been gone after the first movie. It's a shame they're trying to squeeze every ounce they can out of it most likely because they had to pay a hefty price for her DSL's to be in the movies.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » September 8, 2003, 10:28 am

Saruman thought Pippen had it, not Sauron

Sauron thought Pippin had it after he looked into the Orthanc Palantir.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » September 8, 2003, 10:35 am

a lot of the changes don't make sense and actually change they story as crafted by the original author

I think you're all viewing it from the pov of someone who knows the story and as such read more into what is and isn't shown on screen.

And to say "a lot of the changes" implies there were a great many and really there aren't. Faramir has had about 4 mins screen time so I'd say it's too early to judge. Minor changes in the layout of the Rohan story, some condensation of minor characters to bring in more of a love story and remove some headcount (Glorfindel/Arwen etc). Bringing the back story of Aragorn/Arwen into the main thread instead of keeping it an appendix like in the book - no big deal. Tom Bombadil? Who gives a fuck? A lot of the more minor gripes about Two Towers (Ent Draught etc) were cut for running time and are in the EE.
The biggest change so far is the elves at Helm's Deep. You might have a point here but involving them more in the story will increase the payoff of their sad departure at the end of part 3.

Slight, slight changes, all of them. I've yet to see anything that really departs from the story in a destructive way.
Either way if this little lot got your panties in a bunch you should probably skip RotK what with it's no-scouring-of-the-shire and non-canonical death of Saruman.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » September 8, 2003, 11:53 am

but but Tom Bombadil MADE that trilogy!!

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » September 8, 2003, 12:12 pm

Feh!

Everyone who has every remade/made/translated/ported the LotR story to another medium they cut Bombadil. And people bitch about it all the time!

I'll never understand

It's 10 pages the book could do without quite easily

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » September 8, 2003, 12:17 pm

Well, if the movie really went to the book, the fucking thing would be a musical. Probably why ol' Bombadil gets the axe every remake.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » September 8, 2003, 5:45 pm

I gues I just don't get it regarding the everyone's panties bunching over Faramir. He gave out harsh choices in the book and they were played well here. We only saw Faramir in battle situations so yeah he's going to be harsh. I think we'll see more of his 'true' character in the third film.

I think they changed his character too much from what is in the book. In the book he was never tempted to take the ring or to deliver it to his father, in contrast to Boromir. The change to him going to deliver it to Gondor, then deciding to let Frodo go after all weakens his character considerably in my opinion, for no real benefit in the movie.

So the last thing the Nazgul knew was that it was in the hands of a Hobbit who was being taken to Gondor. Still plenty of room for confusion on the part of Mr Eyeball. Again it was a dramatic explanation of the ring's power and works in movie terms. Plus I don't actually remember Sauron ever thinking Aragorn had the ring but I do remember him thinking Pippin had it. My only memory of why Sauron's eyes were on Aragorn was because of the massive fucking army right behinid him

I am not sure if he thought Pippin had it, but the last he heard it had been in the hands of a hobbit at one point so he wanted all hobbits that were out and about in the world brought to him. Sauron's fear was that one of the "great" of the West would take up the ring to oppose him. After Pippen looked in the palantir Gandalf gave it to Aragorn. Aragorn subsequently used it, revealing himself to Sauron. He did this specifically to try to draw Sauron's attention out away from Mordor to try to distract him from Frodo. This was shortly before Aragorn went through the Path's of the Dead so he didn't have an army yet.

Rivera Bladestrike · September 9, 2003, 1:14 am

Sauron thought Pippin had the ring, thats why he sent the might of his army to Minas.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » September 9, 2003, 1:32 am

Sauron didn't send shit, Saruman did. Sauron sends his men in next movie.

VeeshanVault

The Two Towers

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Two Towers ending...