pope?

[Winnow]

To top that even, yesterday we found out my sons first day of Little League practice is to be this Wednesday at the same time as his practice for communion, which is this Sunday by the way. I told him and my wife he will be going to baseball and that he isn't missing something as important as baseball for that crap. Again, did not go over well with the wife.

Good man! The various religious cults can have a crack brainwashing your son when he turns 18. No sooner!

[Sabek]

To top that even, yesterday we found out my sons first day of Little League practice is to be this Wednesday at the same time as his practice for communion, which is this Sunday by the way. I told him and my wife he will be going to baseball and that he isn't missing something as important as baseball for that crap. Again, did not go over well with the wife.

Much better for him to go to baseball so you can relive the glory days vicariously through him.

Or perhaps you should ask him what he wants to do.

[Homercles]

nice to see you teaching your child to disrespect his mothers wishes and her faith. Nothing like undermining a moms authority to raise a well-balanced respectful child

[Kaldaur]

Hahaha Sabek

[Winnow]

Or perhaps you should ask him what he wants to do.

Not if the brainwashing has already begun!

I agree that while at the same time religion shouldn't be encouraged, it shouldn't be discouraged either. It just shouldn't be a huge part of any kid's life at all until they're old enough to know it's bogus..er old enough to to make decisions based on a little more life experience.

[Voronwë]

i've found this whole process of selecting a pope and his funeral very fascinating. I'm an atheist, but i have really enjoyed watching this stuff, and I have learned a lot.

[Brotha]

I've never really understood why Catholics believe one man can be put above all others and somehow "communicate" with God more than any others? I've never read the bible but it's always been my impression that everyone is equal under the eyes of God, where in the Bible does it justify puting the pope above everyone?

[Xzion]

Who really cares? How is any of this important to any of us? This holds as much significance as who Brad Pitt is going out with.

On a side note:

Last week or so, my son told me he had to wake up at 3am to watch the Pope's funeral. I told him bullshit, you aren't waking up at 3am on a school night for that crap. My wife was not pleased with me. To top that even, yesterday we found out my sons first day of Little League practice is to be this Wednesday at the same time as his practice for communion, which is this Sunday by the way. I told him and my wife he will be going to baseball and that he isn't missing something as important as baseball for that crap. Again, did not go over well with the wife.

even as an agnostic and very large critic of the catholic church i have to acknowladge the great influence a pope has over the world...he is essentially in control of the richest religious institution on earth and several million people will see his actions as "the will of god"

even im surprised the catholics chose such a hard line conservative for the new job...all i see from what ive read of this appointment is his greatest accomplishment will be pushing more people away from the already declining catholic church


also midnyte, not that im someone worthy to give parenting advice...but dont "force" your atheism on your kids, let them make there own decisions and guide them by letting them know your personal belifs, if you force them to skip there pratice or not allow them to watch a popes funeral usually they will take the opposite position out of spite...if/when i have kids il make it clear to my wife that she will not be allowed to force any religious values (although i doubt i will ever marry a religious person) on my kid, and that he is entitled to make his own decisions on attending church, temple mosque etc etc

[Aabidano]

...old enough to to make decisions based on a little more life experience.

Just about everyone I've seen "go back to church" does it in their mid 30s-40ish. Maybe it's just the people I work and live around, but I doubt it.

Most had attitudes similar to yours as well

[Voronwë]

well there is no structural indication in the Bible at all regarding how the Church should exist.

I'll try to answer based on what I've heard, but I will tell you I may be wrong.

Basically, Catholic tradition holds that there is this period of time between the death of Christ and the formal establishment of the Church (around 470 AD) and I believe that time period is termed something on the order of "The living Church".

And there was a lot of different ways in which the early Church was organized back then. That is why they held the Council of Nicea around 700 AD. They needed to codify the uniting principles of what was a rapidly growing religion. Almost all Christian denominations still recite the Nicene Crede at every service/mass.

"We believe in One God, the Father, the Almighty.
Creator of Heaven and Earth.
And through his son Jesus Christ..." (or something like that)

Remember ALL Christians were "Catholics" before the Great Schizm which created the Eastern Orthodox Church around 1050). In fact the word "Catholic" probably wasnt used until then (it simply means "universal"). And for the most part, none of the branches of Christianity that most Americans practice didn't exist until 1585, or even as late as 1780 (Calvinist Revolution in France around this time? created Presbyterianism). Mormons in 1880, etc etc.

So the point is, all of those denominations have their structural basis in their common history with the Roman Catholic Church. And if you believe Church doctrine, the Holy Spirit guided much of the formation of these early days of the Church, with Peter having a central roll. That is why the Pope traces his spiritual lineage to St. Peter - essentially held to be the first "Father of the Church" itself.

basically, anyone looking to the New Testament for an organizational blueprint of Christianity will come up with nothing. I think it is very reasonable to criticize the tenant in Catholocism that the intercession of a priest is central to a Christian's relationship with God. It is a reason why if I were a Christian, i wouldn't be Catholic.

It is always important to remember that religious organizations ARE political organizations. Especially an organization like the Catholic Church which was a major part of the Holy Roman Empire that controlled most of Europe for a long time. And the structures of a religion as large and old as the Catholic Church will invariably be shaped by political forces. Especially considering the historical context within which those structures arose. 1500 years ago it was pretty much a bunch of crazed sons of bitches running around Europe chopping people to bits

Religion has been intermingled with government for most of our history. Primitive societies had their leaders as divine (Rome, Egypt), and even the royal families in Europe justified their positions by "Divine Providence". It is a recent phenomenon to have secular government at all. And of course, the religious interests don't like not having their hands on the levers of power, which is why you have the current political climate in the United States.

[Marbus]

So Midnyte are you saying that you believe Baseball practice is more important that your son's immortal soul?

I don't agree with everything the Catholic Church believes but then again I don't agree with everything any Church believes so... I guess I'm a generic or maybe exception Christian and I believe it's more important for me to understand what God wants than to have some guy stand up and tell give me his version... but that's just me

While my sons are still young my belief is to encourage their courisoty (sp). If they want to know more about something I'll give them as much information as they can handle. It's working so far but then again my oldest is just now in the "I've got a question about everything phase" so we will see how it goes

Marb

[Spang]

I really do question the wisdom of choosing someone who is in their 70's though. Several of the "candidates" are quite old and I don't think they will last long meaning they have to do this all over again in just a couple years. They should plan for the future and get someone a bit younger and then have a strong concerted leadership going forward.

/shrug

I'm not catholic so maybe I am off base here.

by choosing an old guy for pope now, they are planning for the future. it's like american politics. sometimes they choose a candidate that has no chance in hell of winning the presidential elections to prepare for the real canditate 4 years later.

[Winnow]

...old enough to to make decisions based on a little more life experience.

Just about everyone I've seen "go back to church" does it in their mid 30s-40ish. Maybe it's just the people I work and live around, but I doubt it.

Most had attitudes similar to yours as well

I don't see anything wrong with that. If some 30-40 year old, having a midlife crisis, wants to use a little escapism in the form of religion to reduce their stress, good for them. I'll stick to studying various philosophies that deal with life and its meaning while not injecting religion into the process.

[Brotha]

Thanks Voro!

And Teeny, Africa makes up slightly more of the percentage of overall Catholics than Asia does. Asian pope anyone?

[Voronwë]

one thing that i would add Brotha, is I think it makes sense from an organizational standpoint to have a central, ultimate authority.

If you consider that the printing press did not even exist until what, 1200 or 1300, and most people couldnt read until relatively recently in history, and with lots of political capital at stake, there is a great motivation to have 'competing' messages out there.

so the central "infallible" authority enjoyed by the pope perhaps provides the structural benefit of maintaining continuity across both geography and history.

Contrast it with a lot of the churches that exist in the US today. A lot of them are just kind of independent operational units, and the pastors there pretty much decide what is important to emphasize in terms of Jesus' message. I think there are advantages to this approach in that individual congregations can custom tailor their religion to their social needs. And I think it is a reasonable interpretation of Christianity to hold that an individual can be touched by the Holy Spirit, and that can be the route through which a congregation circumvents that heirarchy.

On the flip side, I think that also leaves the door open for misinformation, misinterpretaion, misuse of, and misrepresentation of Christ's message. basically, some preacher who says he/she is the instrument of God or has a direct phone line can even with benign intent completely bastardize the message of the Gospel.

A great strength of the Catholic Church in my view is the long history - which is not immaculate (but what 2000 year old organization would be?) - to have a direct connection to Jesus' apostles. Peter is "the rock upon which I will build my Church" (or something like that).

that history provides continuity of message and is checked against itself.

[Sabek]

So Midnyte are you saying that you believe Baseball practice is more important that your son's immortal soul?

I don't agree with everything the Catholic Church believes but then again I don't agree with everything any Church believes so... I guess I'm a generic or maybe exception Christian and I believe it's more important for me to understand what God wants than to have some guy stand up and tell give me his version... but that's just me

While my sons are still young my belief is to encourage their courisoty (sp). If they want to know more about something I'll give them as much information as they can handle. It's working so far but then again my oldest is just now in the "I've got a question about everything phase" so we will see how it goes

Marb

Kind of funny you should put it this way Marb. At my church, which happens to be non-denominational, we have a saying that goes "Religion is what gets in the way of the relationship with God that he really intended."

It's not about religion, it's about a relationship with God. Religion is the crap that messes things up. For instance different religions put restrictions and actually move away from what the Bible shows as the path to salvation. This happens when they say to get to Heaven you must have Jesus and cut your hair, or Jesus and be a saint, etc etc. When if you look at the Bible it says one thing and one thing alone gets you into heaven. Jesus, thats it. The rest is just crap religion has piled on top.

[Tenuvil]

Voro is pretty darn spot on. Excellent grasp of Catholic history for a self described Atheist!

The Biblical justification for the papal structure can be found in Matthew 16:18, "And so I tell you, Peter: you are a rock, and on this rock foundation I will build my church, and not even death will ever be able to overcome it." St. Peter was the first Vicar of Christ, or Pope, and all other Popes follow from St. Peter.

Pope John Paul II's book "Crossing the Threshold of Hope" has a section where he explains the reason and rationale for Papal succession.

[Marbus]

That's good Vor for not being a Christian, I think you know more than 99% of the believers out there

A few timline changes though...
~312 AD - Constantine becomes a Christian after seeing the sign of the Cross (perhaps something else?) before a battle
313 AD - Edict of Milan makes Christianity Legal in the Roman Empire
325 AD - Council of Nicaea

It all just happened a little earlier. What's interesting is that before it was "legal" most community church leaders were... dare I say... WOMEN! Due to the equality in the Gospels (not in all the other NT books) women played a big part in the Jesus movement. It wasn't until the formation of the Roman Catholic church that women were regulated to the proper place in the dominant patriartical society of the time. All those men just couldn't have a woman having any sort of "power" over them now could they?

In regards to the Holy Roman Empire the Church WAS the Roman Empire after the Goths got through with Rome. By time the Church split the Muslims were bearing down as well.

We also have to remember that th Popes of the past 250 years or so aren't like the Popes of the middle ages or early church. Those guys were more like Emperors. They had people killed on a regular basis, had multiple concubines etc... That being said the more recent Popes, while I don't believe they "rank" any higher than any other Christian, seem definitely comitted to doing God's work, much moreso than the average believer.

I attend the Presbyterian USA Church and we, like most Lutherns, Methodist etc... do recite the Nicaean Creed every Sunday. Which from time to time freaks out the visitors who attend a Baptist or "Bible" Church as they always ask?

[Sirton]

We Catholics feel Peter is the First Pope and he was selected by Jesus(Much I can type on, but don't have the time atm.)....And at the Vatican is were he was buried after he was crucified upside down by the Pagan's under Emperor Nero.

So the church looks at it as he was man's first representive for God on earth, so therefore there has been a selection of popes, since...but there is some question on what is official.

Many bad popes many good popes over the years...I think there was even 37 anti-popes selected.

BTW Xzion...The Catholic church is not in decline.....You alway spout your thoughts which are not of facts.

The Catholic church in the time of John Paul the II...has increased its numbers by 250,000,000...THANKYOU....there are about 1.1 billion Catholics now.


And it is the only Christian religion to grow in the USA in the pass 20 years.......By 7%.

So know your facts before posting....like there are less practicing Catholics in the US and Europe, but more in numbers.

[Winnow]

So know your facts before posting....like there are less practicing Catholics in the US and Europe, but more in numbers.

Yeah, more Catholic converts in the third world. We export cigarrettes, coca cola and religion to them. Another example of taking advantage of the uneducated.

[Animalor]

Another example of taking advantage of the uneducated.

The catholic church has always done things like this. Why would they stop now?

[Chmee]

Over at Reason's blog Hit and Run Charles Paul Freund had a post that went into one of the historical papal elections. Kind of interesting.

http://www.reason.com/hitandrun/2005/04 ... l#comments

Of course, these sorts of factional splits are small change compared to the days when the Papacy was an integral part of Europe's power politics. For centuries, such conclaves involved struggles between the monarchies of France and Spain, the Holy Roman Empire, various Italian princes, as well as powerful families of Rome itself.

Under those circumstances, hopeless deadlocks could develop, and conclaves might continue for months or even years before settling on some compromise candidate. (The longest such deadlock lasted nearly three years, from 1268 to 1271.) Rome's citizens could become insistent and even threatening toward deadlocked conclaves: They might wall in the cardinals, greatly reduce their food, or even tear the roof off the building they were using to encourage them to make a choice. (Or rather, to encourage the cardinals' openness to the Holy Spirit, since doctrine held that the choice of a pope was inspired by the Holy Spirit.)

Just such a hopeless deadlock was to result in the most dysfunctional of all Papacies. In 1294, after some 18 months of intrigue and impasse, a conclave suddenly elected an elderly, mountain-dwelling hermit called Peter of Morone. Peter was a popular mystic who was believed to hang his cloak on a sunbeam; when he prayed, an invisible bell was said to toll. The delegation sent to inform him of his election had to scale a sheer, thousand-foot cliff in the Abruzzi to find him. Peter at first refused the office, but was persuaded that he was the expected "angelic pope" who would return apostolic simplicity to Rome, and who would usher in an age of Christian love. It didn't work out that way.

Taking the name Celestine V, Peter never made it to Rome at all. The king of France took immediate control of him, and housed him under his thumb in a Neapolitan palace. Pope Celestine understood nothing of what was going on around him, signed everything laid before him (including blank Papal Bulls), raised to cardinal every French candidate, and grew increasingly miserable. He spent most of the day in prayer.

Soon, Peter began hearing a supernatural voice at night admonishing him for accepting the Papacy at all. That voice is usually attributed to Cardinal Benedetto Gaetani, who entertained papal ambitions of his own, and who supposedly outfitted Peter's room with a speaking tube through which he whispered the heavenly admonitions. By day, the lawyerly Gaetani offered Peter help in extricating himself from the burdensome office. Before the year was out, Celestine had abdicated.

Many common people felt betrayed by the holy hermit in whom they'd placed their hopes for the world's salvation, but it was Peter who was in danger. Benedetto Gaetani quickly engineered his own election to the Throne of Peter, and seeing a living former pope as a potentially serious problem, sought his arrest. Celestine V escaped into the wilderness, and eventually boarded a ship for Dalmatia. The ship was blown back to shore, however, and Celestine was soon locked away in a papal fortress. He's said to have smiled on first seeing his tiny cell, because it reminded him of the huts in which he'd spent his pre-papal life doing penance. He died in that cell within two years.

In 1313, Pope Celestine V was declared a saint. He has an impressive marble tomb in Aquila.

[Winnow]

In 1313, Pope Celestine V was declared a saint. He has an impressive marble tomb in Aquila.

Another ordinary person Sainted.

What a joke the whole business of religion is yet people keep donating and listening to these guys. Schmucks.

[Xzion]

We Catholics feel Peter is the First Pope and he was selected by Jesus(Much I can type on, but don't have the time atm.)....And at the Vatican is were he was buried after he was crucified upside down by the Pagan's under Emperor Nero.

So the church looks at it as he was man's first representive for God on earth, so therefore there has been a selection of popes, since...but there is some question on what is official.

Many bad popes many good popes over the years...I think there was even 37 anti-popes selected.

BTW Xzion...The Catholic church is not in decline.....You alway spout your thoughts which are not of facts.

The Catholic church in the time of John Paul the II...has increased its numbers by 250,000,000...THANKYOU....there are about 1.1 billion Catholics now.


And it is the only Christian religion to grow in the USA in the pass 20 years.......By 7%.

So know your facts before posting....like there are less practicing Catholics in the US and Europe, but more in numbers.

Sure those are the facts on paper, but inr eality they mean nothing....for example, Spain is i believe 90-95% catholic, the % has remained steady for a number of years, hell even increased but the population of praticing catholics is rapidly decreasing...less then 5% of there population attends mass
hell on paper im still a catholic, i was baptised did the 1st communion and what not until i denounced that faith around the age of 12 before confirmation...people call themselves "catholic" while a the same time never attending church or following 20% of the church's teachings...a religions strength is defined by actions, not numbers...america and the civilized world in general is moving against religion, while at the same time not formaly denouncing christianity

3rd world countrys will follow the pattern and convert to established religious pratices, yet when that country in the future begins to develope the religion will die as well

[Pherr the Dorf]

Ummm and the mormon church is a Christian religion like it or not, and they are converting more people in a month then the catholic church does all year (slight exaggeration, but not a big one actually)

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

So Midnyte are you saying that you believe Baseball practice is more important that your son's immortal soul?

No. I am saying that in this life, going to his first baseball practice will have more of an effect on his life than missing one of 23 communion practices that pertain to something he won't find out is true or not until he dies. I don't believe in any such "immortal soul". There is not one ounce of proof to support anything you religious people could ever put forth, so why should I guide my son to alter something real over something that is not?

And to a previous comment, I am not forcing my non belief on my son. I drive him to CCD/church every Sunday morning. I never tell him my non-belief. I nod and acknowledge his interest and learning. I will let him make his own choices on that topic as he grows, matures and learns more.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

nice to see you teaching your child to disrespect his mothers wishes and her faith. Nothing like undermining a moms authority to raise a well-balanced respectful child

Homer, you know I like you a lot so I will refrain from my normal way of replying to something like this. I am not undermining her faith or authority. In any two parent household their are compromizes reached every few minutes. If you have found a spouse who agrees with you and your way of thinking 100%, then I applaud you and envy you. Maybe you should have asked me first if my wife agreed wife me after I backed up my postion about which practice I want him attending. She did.

[Sylvos]

Im glad that people like Voronwe exist. Why? Because he gets an intelligent message across from an outside point of view without being insulting in the slightest to other people on the board who are in fact Catholic. I say thank you Voronwe for your intelligent dissertation and I know I for one appreciate your input. A lot of you could take a page out of his book.

p.s. I'm not 100% pleased with the pope they chose, nor am I happy he chose Benedict. Benedict Popes have always had a bloody reign/papacy. That makes me worry a bit for the future. Had he chosen Julius I think I would have probably thrown up. We don't need another bloodthirsty warrior pope.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Im glad that people like Voronwe exist. Why? Because he gets an intelligent message across from an outside point of view without being insulting in the slightest to other people on the board who are in fact Catholic. I say thank you Voronwe for your intelligent dissertation and I know I for one appreciate your input. A lot of you could take a page out of his book.

p.s. I'm not 100% pleased with the pope they chose, nor am I happy he chose Benedict. Benedict Popes have always had a bloody reign/papacy. That makes me worry a bit for the future. Had he chosen Julius I think I would have probably thrown up. We don't need another bloodthirsty warrior pope.

I've known Voro since 199 and like him very much. But, it never ceases to amaze me how many people openly suck Voro's ass all the time. It is a perfect example of how people only see what they want.

PS: Sylvos, wipe your chin. You still have one of Voro's dingleberry's hanging from your goatee.

[Marbus]

Midnyte while I do believe in an immortal soul I was just giving you a hard time. One communion practice, as you said, isn't a big deal. Sorry it seemed so serious... While we don't agree on everything I know from years past you would do anything for your kids, just like I would. That always gives us a common point of reference.

Marb

[Nick]

Catholics in NI are nicknamed "Fenians".

That is all.

[Drasta]

whats with the picking of the name thingie?

[Fairweather Pure]

Ummm and the mormon church is a Christian religion like it or not, and they are converting more people in a month then the catholic church does all year (slight exaggeration, but not a big one actually)

This is true. Jahova's Whitnesses were also growing at a very rapid rate for awhile there. The reason is simple. They are the only 2 religous groups who have a large, active, and organized recruiting missionary force. It should be noted that both draw huge amounts of new members from underdeveloped nations.

Last I knew, Mormons were the the largest growing religion in America by a pretty big margin.

[Drasta]

never let them into your house or you'll never get rid of them!

[Sylvos]

Im glad that people like Voronwe exist. Why? Because he gets an intelligent message across from an outside point of view without being insulting in the slightest to other people on the board who are in fact Catholic. I say thank you Voronwe for your intelligent dissertation and I know I for one appreciate your input. A lot of you could take a page out of his book.

p.s. I'm not 100% pleased with the pope they chose, nor am I happy he chose Benedict. Benedict Popes have always had a bloody reign/papacy. That makes me worry a bit for the future. Had he chosen Julius I think I would have probably thrown up. We don't need another bloodthirsty warrior pope.

I've known Voro since 199 and like him very much. But, it never ceases to amaze me how many people openly suck Voro's ass all the time. It is a perfect example of how people only see what they want.

PS: Sylvos, wipe your chin. You still have one of Voro's dingleberry's hanging from your goatee.

Ok, Hairlip we're gonna take a gander at your moronic post real quick so that you not only look like an ass (which you already do) but you can finally sit back and absorb exactly what you read.

Lets look at the previous posters - all anti-catholic and avid 'IM AN ATHEIST LOOK AT ME I'M SO NEW AGE , THERE IS NO GOD AND IM SO FUCKIGN COOL" - that would be you.
Now we have Voronwe, who generally is a little bit too leftwing for me a good 50% of the time. Yet he manages to say something intelligent without being derisive. Now I understand you desperately want someone to compliment you on an intelligent post. Haha, that sounded funny even as I typed it cause we both know that's not going to happen. Being a Catholic growing up in the Bible Belt ( read Hi Baptist Anti-Catholic Land) I've had to deal with ignorance and outright bigotry about religion my entire life. Why? Cause people, like you, are stupid. People don't really understand how horribly unintelligent they sound when they flame another persons religion. I fear the day you actually take a step back and realize what sort of idiot you come off as. It's nice for a change to see someone who isn't Catholic and has no desire to be one, make a really informative (and almost right - very well researched) statement on the affairs of what is and has happened in the past.
Now, I personally can give a shit what you put into your kids head. I'm already saddened that you have managed to find a way to breed. Now as far as sucking ass? Wow. Voronwe we need to sex0r now plz. Apparently I need your atheist man meat in my catholic cinnamon ring. Midnyte has proven once again that his witty flames has been the undoing of yet another VV'er. I am shamed. Now Midnyte, that is called Sarcasm. It's a handy literary tool we sometimes use generally to insult or infer that the person we are speaking to is an idiot. Mind you, it's not the primary use of it, but in this situation the use fits nicely. If that was too fast for you i'll just sum it up here "Dumb ass".
I don't like to flame people, I'm a nice guy. So I will not go into a tirade and launch a string of insults any more so than have already been typed out above. Sometimes it's easier to compliment one person than to respond to 50 with a hate filled response. You know, in a sea of anger and intolerance its easier to reach for the floating log than to swim into the rising swells.

[nobody]

Ha Mormons

those were good times

[Voronwë]

thanks Marb for the clarifications on the dates. i messed up another one. I called the break between Constantinople and Rome "the Great Schism". That actually happened in 1450 when there were 3 simultaneous Popes.

i like to talk shit as much as the next guy, but i really find religion intersting, so i like to talk about it.

[cid]

thanks Marb for the clarifications on the dates. i messed up another one. I called the break between Constantinople and Rome "the Great Schism". That actually happened in 1450 when there were 3 simultaneous Popes.

i like to talk shit as much as the next guy, but i really find religion intersting, so i like to talk about it.

You scare the shit outa me when it comes to religion.

[nobody]

you know Sylvos,you actually make sense once in a while when you're not on a tangent. i'll give your post an amen brotha!

[Voronwë]

thanks Marb for the clarifications on the dates. i messed up another one. I called the break between Constantinople and Rome "the Great Schism". That actually happened in 1450 when there were 3 simultaneous Popes.

i like to talk shit as much as the next guy, but i really find religion intersting, so i like to talk about it.

You scare the shit outa me when it comes to religion.

why? =)

[cid]

I have had a hard time believing since I lost my mom in a car accident 7 years ago. Reading your posts about religion makes me question my faith even more. Also, your description of what you think happens when you die fucked with me for about two weeks.

I do not want to believe in what you do, but I am a man of facts. What you say make sense and makes me think about it even more.

So I have started reading the bible and will interpret it in my own way. Then I will decide on what I will do about religion. I am sure I will turn back to God, but I want it to be true to me. Not just a happy thought to get me through life.

[Lohrno]

Lets look at the previous posters - all anti-catholic and avid 'IM AN ATHEIST LOOK AT ME I'M SO NEW AGE , THERE IS NO GOD AND IM SO FUCKIGN COOL"

I don't see how that is much different from "OMG I'M CATHOLIC! I'M CHRISTIAN BUT I'M DIFFERENT FROM ALL YOU FOLKS! I'M SO FUCKIGN COOL!"

I'm sorry, but this line stood out as a kind of hypocracy because it makes fun of the 'atheists' you are bashing for bashing your religion.

I will agree with your general premise though. Those particular atheists and anyone else no matter what belief who tells you what you should or should not believe can go screw themselves.

[Winnow]

All you need to do is read the last ten threads on this forum to see that no topic lasts long in civil discussion mode. The people on this board that suck up to kyoukan should be well aware of that and not be surprised when a post in a normal discussion is thrown in to cause havok with the thread.

As for my comments on this thread, I could have used more tact but I was determined to use the word schmuck in a post. I apologize for causing any undue strife on the holiest of holy days for roman catholics.

The Vatican did finance Hitler though. They must have liked his ideas on eliminating the jew problem.

[Lohrno]

The Vatican did finance Hitler though. They must have liked his ideas on eliminating the jew problem.

I would say that* is more a problem with the institution than the philosophy. Or is it? Perhaps if they did that it was just to survive...who knows...

In any case, I'd like a source for this info.

*If it's true as you haven't provided sources. I don't doubt it, I'm just not ready to assert that as a fact.

[Sylvos]

Lets look at the previous posters - all anti-catholic and avid 'IM AN ATHEIST LOOK AT ME I'M SO NEW AGE , THERE IS NO GOD AND IM SO FUCKIGN COOL"

I don't see how that is much different from "OMG I'M CATHOLIC! I'M CHRISTIAN BUT I'M DIFFERENT FROM ALL YOU FOLKS! I'M SO FUCKIGN COOL!"

I'm sorry, but this line stood out as a kind of hypocracy because it makes fun of the 'atheists' you are bashing for bashing your religion.

I will agree with your general premise though. Those particular atheists and anyone else no matter what belief who tells you what you should or should not believe can go screw themselves.

how about
FUK U HITLER!

suck balls lohrno!

[Winnow]

The Vatican Exposed!

[Lohrno]

Got anything else? A quick search finds that and that Hitler wanted to destroy the vatican and kidnap Pope Pius XII. It's true that the Nazis were the backstabbing sort, but I would think that if the Vatican were truly on board they wouldn't need to do that...

[Lohrno]

how about
FUK U HITLER!

suck balls lohrno!

Ahhh so you have invoked Godwin's law. Good for me!

There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.

[*~*stragi*~*]

heil nazi pope
anyhow, mormons are not fucking christians. like it or not.

[Voronwë]

well Mormons view Jesus as the Messiah, which probably is probably sufficient to call a group "Christian".

sure you might say that they have some pretty peculiar beliefs in addition to that (God has a physical body) and that the various books they have (Book of Mormon, etc) are the literal "Word of God".

anyways, their wierd, but they are Christians.