Scientists Recover T. Rex Soft Tissue

Homercles · Post by **Homercles** » March 25, 2005, 5:51 pm

I agree. Jesus was just a man. But I also believe he is one of the greatest and most influential men to ever walk this planet. I do not believe he was the son of god. I dont believe he walked on water. I dont believe he walked 40 days and nights in the desert with no food and water. I dont believe he rose from the dead after three days then ascended to heaven (hence, Im a very very VERY bad Catholic)

I do believe in his teachings. And you find those teachings in the New Testament. So I cant discard the Bible as a fantasy novel no matter how distorted and exagerrated it has become.

You chose Jordan as a modern day example. Nah. Id say Martin Luther King Jr is more appropriate. MLK was a great man. I believe in what he preached and what he taught. Just as I believe in what Jesus taught.

What if in the future, after centuries of distortions and exagerations (which is already under way thanks to Jesse and Sharpton) that MLK is viewed as a Holy Savior. Would those future distortions render his actual teachings as trivial and fantasy?

I just think that giving no respect to the bible, calling it pure fiction and fantasy, calling it lies and brainwashing, and discounting any historical information that can be found within it, is almost the same thing as claiming evolution is pure fiction and that dinosaurs are a creation of the devil.

I view evolution as the correct theory of mankinds development. I also view the bible as the best source of the teachings of Jesus (one of the most influential men ever to live)

Drinsic Darkwood · Post by **Drinsic Darkwood** » March 25, 2005, 6:41 pm

Off topic...

Jice Virago wrote:And I think all but the fundies can agree that artistic liscence (read: gross exhaguration) took place in the crafting of the bible, with the whole wolrd made in 6 days and the entire planet being populated and then repopulated by single pairs of species crap.

Jice Virago wrote:That said, I think the more credible argument to make would be that the passages listed in Job might be things like Mammoths (which we know co-existed with the earliest tribes of man) or simple exagurations of existing animals (ie how snakes got made into dragons, Goliath, ect).

Homercles wrote:What if in the future, after centuries of distortions and exagerations (which is already under way thanks to Jesse and Sharpton) that MLK is viewed as a Holy Savior. Would those future distortions render his actual teachings as trivial and fantasy?

For the love of Spelling, it's exaggeration - no u's or h's, two g's.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 25, 2005, 6:55 pm

Homercles wrote:I agree. Jesus was just a man. But I also believe he is one of the greatest and most influential men to ever walk this planet. I do not believe he was the son of god. I dont believe he walked on water. I dont believe he walked 40 days and nights in the desert with no food and water. I dont believe he rose from the dead after three days then ascended to heaven (hence, Im a very very VERY bad Catholic)

If you can't believe in that part of it, then where do the lies end and the truth begin? The Bible is too riddled with bogus stuff in it to be useful to anyone other than those that feel like extracting some morals (motivation based on ideas of right and wrong) out of it. You can be taught morals from a number of sources though.

There's no doubt most people need order to their lives. I prefer order over chaos and so religion gets some brownie points from me for generally keeping it's own flock under control...but that all goes to hell because there is more than one religion and none of them are any better than the other. No matter how bad you or I might think another religion is, it's just another set of morals that people choose to live by. To be honest, I don't see why there's a problem if a certain religion wants to kill everyone on the planet besides the fact that I am enjoying my life atm. We really serve no purpose ultimately but I do have a self preservation instinct and also have a desire to enjoy my life to its fullest while I exist so I'm a big backer of democracy and laws that govern a society. If I thought another country had a government that would give me a better life based on what I value, I'd pursue moving there and becoming a citizen.

It comes down to survival instincts and way of life. Religion is a controlling factor but laws can handle that part of religion's appeal. The other aspect, fear of the unknown and death, is a little harder to deal with for most so I don't think we'll ever be rid of these cults, they will just be refocused on pacifying those scared of dying and those that need a purpose to live besides the pursuit of knowledge.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » March 25, 2005, 7:19 pm

With the evolution crowd I see more than pure seekers trying to explain their world. I see zealots trying to describe a world devoid of anything that hints that humans are accountable to a higher power. They stretch the intepretation of fact to avoid this thought. They ostricise those who ask questions outside their philosophy. They have closed their minds.

I understand why. We as people don't like to be told that we aren't the absolute god of ourselves. The clutch point for people of faith is, they recognise that submission to God fufills their life much more than any personal direction they could provide themselves.

God is just as real as the mouse in my hand. I see that. My filter doesn't block him. My core doesn't reject him out of some sense of self determination. Long ago when I was down an out in life, I bet a little on God and he steered my life into correction 10 fold. He gave me unshakeable peace of my destiny and my role here on earth. He tweaks the variables around my day to day life. I see his fingerprints everywhere. When I'm quiet, I hear his voice in answer to my prayers. God is quite real.

Some people filter this out. To them, I am deluded.

What can I say. I respect you guys, but I see God, and he brings my black and white life into the realms of color.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 25, 2005, 7:26 pm

Voronwë wrote:microprocessors have only existed for a couple of decades, but thousands of people put their lives in "their hands" every day.

we actually do know how accurate radioactive dating is. The theoretical calculations match the observed measurements.

if you choose to view things as either 100% known or shelve it into the "unknown" slot, then i think it is difficult to make any decision. You obviously don't need this much evidence for making decisions on political people. You've never met Hillary Clinton, but i am positive you "knew" all you needed to know about her years ago.

you can either choose to make a decision based on a probability of it being correct on the order of 99.9999999999% or 0.0000000001%

sure both are posible. but possible doesn't really mean much

every decision that most of us make in our daily lives hinges on probabilities. the money in my 401k, i invest in stock because they are much more likely to go up in value than bonds or cash.

No Voro, you misunderstand me. I am not shelving anything. I believe carbon dating or whatever is most likely acurate. I have faith in technology most times. I was just saying it is possible that dinosaurs could only be 10,000 years old, since we don't really know how truly accurate it is. Maybe it is just very difficult for people sometimes to be able to envision 1,000,000 years ago, etc.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 25, 2005, 7:35 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:With the evolution crowd I see more than pure seekers trying to explain their world. I see zealots trying to describe a world devoid of anything that hints that humans are accountable to a higher power. They stretch the intepretation of fact to avoid this thought. They ostricise those who ask questions outside their philosophy. They have closed their minds.

I understand why. We as people don't like to be told that we aren't the absolute god of ourselves. The clutch point for people of faith is, they recognise that submission to God fufills their life much more than any personal direction they could provide themselves.

God is just as real as the mouse in my hand. I see that. My filter doesn't block him. My core doesn't reject him out of some sense of self determination. Long ago when I was down an out in life, I bet a little on God and he steered my life into correction 10 fold. He gave me unshakeable peace of my destiny and my role here on earth. He tweaks the variables around my day to day life. I see his fingerprints everywhere. When I'm quiet, I hear his voice in answer to my prayers. God is quite real.

Some people filter this out. To them, I am deluded.

What can I say. I respect you guys, but I see God, and he brings my black and white life into the realms of color.

I respect the way you feel, but.....

You steered your life into correction 10 fold. You just tricked yourself into thinking someone was helping you, in order to make it easier on your mind.

You talk about filters and not blocking him out as so many others do....prove to me God exists and I'll be right there next to you in church praying to the Lord. You can't.

All you have is faith. Well........little children have faith in Santa Clause while us adults think how cute and naive they are. They have no proof Santa exists, but they have faith because you told them to. You read them books telling great tales about him. What a great man he was. You even drew pictures of him from the descriptions detailed in his books. Get it?

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 25, 2005, 8:00 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:With the evolution crowd I see more than pure seekers trying to explain their world. I see zealots trying to describe a world devoid of anything that hints that humans are accountable to a higher power. They stretch the intepretation of fact to avoid this thought. They ostricise those who ask questions outside their philosophy. They have closed their minds.

Touche. This is true there are zealots in every camp. But I would say that those who are being so zealous are not being true to science. Science is not about facts, it is about provable repeatable assertations. A zealous attitude is actually counterproductive to science. Science is about questioning things, making conclusions, and being willing to see the light when you are proven wrong. Religion is about believing a particular story or having faith. There are some out there that do this too with religion, but most of them are Philosophists. If you are willing to give and take a little within yourself, the two can co-exist.

As to the second part, how would you reccommend I or anyone else also see God? Many people claim they talk to god and many tell different stories about God's intentions. How do you resolve that? Is yours the correct voice of God and those who are in conflict are obviously not talking to God? Wouldn't they think the same thing?

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » March 25, 2005, 9:49 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
You talk about filters and not blocking him out as so many others do....prove to me God exists and I'll be right there next to you in church praying to the Lord. You can't.

Absolutely right, I can't prove that God exists to you. God alone reveals himself and proves himself to you. All I can do is share my experience and convey how he has affected me.

Santa Claus never changes the variables surrounding my life in response to prayer. The easter bunny never stirred my heart into being less selfish and more loving. The tooth fairy never gave me peace at times when I cryed out in pain. God did. It's like a lightning bolt from a clear sky when you catch him tweaking reality to take care of you. God responds.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 25, 2005, 9:59 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote: Santa Claus never changes the variables surrounding my life in response to prayer. The easter bunny never stirred my heart into being less selfish and more loving. The tooth fairy never gave me peace at times when I cryed out in pain. God did. It's like a lightning bolt from a clear sky when you catch him tweaking reality to take care of you. God responds.

I would contend that this is because you do not have enough faith in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » March 25, 2005, 10:02 pm

Lohrno wrote: As to the second part, how would you reccommend I or anyone else also see God? Many people claim they talk to god and many tell different stories about God's intentions. How do you resolve that? Is yours the correct voice of God and those who are in conflict are obviously not talking to God? Wouldn't they think the same thing?

I'm not an expert on other religions. I can only speak about my personal experience. I bet on God, and he filled my life. The bible laid out the story, and reason. I simply prayed that I could use Jesus' help with my failings and that I was willing to trust God for a while. For a moment I belived, and God just rushed in.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » March 25, 2005, 10:06 pm

Lohrno wrote:
Adex_Xeda wrote: Santa Claus never changes the variables surrounding my life in response to prayer. The easter bunny never stirred my heart into being less selfish and more loving. The tooth fairy never gave me peace at times when I cryed out in pain. God did. It's like a lightning bolt from a clear sky when you catch him tweaking reality to take care of you. God responds.
I would contend that this is because you do not have enough faith in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

I know, it's kinda different. God says trust me first, and I'll rush in to confirm.
It's one of those boot camp issues for the next life. He's preparing us for for our future role. Life is a big proving grownd where we learn how to trust him, even when we can't comprehend all the variables. That's faith. A handy tool for the next life I suppose.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 25, 2005, 10:13 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote: It's like a lightning bolt from a clear sky when you catch him tweaking reality to take care of you. God responds.

You can hypnotize someone and get them to pretty much believe anything. Hypnotize, tell them a huge teddy bear is god, and watch them believe it. Its the same for any belief. They convince themselves that a certain "being" or thing is responsible for curing their pain when it's a state of mind that has nothing to do with an outside force.

I break my leg, you break your leg, we both have the capability of ignoring the pain based on how we deal with it mentally. I could picture the perfect set of hooters and calm myself and take my mind off the pain. You choose to believe someone is doing it for you. Yay you. Just don't take any orders from him to start slaughtering people like during the crusades or then others have to step in...or can you still pick and choose what you want from him and believe that only what he tells you is correct and others just aren't praying right? ah yes, inc excuses!

God = a fancy imaginary pal or blanky

Atheists have the ability to handle mental issues in ways that don't require mysterious forces.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 25, 2005, 10:24 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote: I know, it's kinda different. God says trust me first, and I'll rush in to confirm.
It's one of those boot camp issues for the next life. He's preparing us for for our future role. Life is a big proving grownd where we learn how to trust him, even when we can't comprehend all the variables. That's faith. A handy tool for the next life I suppose.

But the point I'm trying to make is what makes you think that your views are correct when many others also believe something similar but in a different religion and can say that their god is telling them something completely different?

They believe they are completely right, and you believe you are completely right, who is right? Neither, both, him, or you?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 25, 2005, 11:21 pm

All you have is faith. Well........little children have faith in Santa Clause while us adults think how cute and naive they are. They have no proof Santa exists, but they have faith because you told them to. You read them books telling great tales about him. What a great man he was. You even drew pictures of him from the descriptions detailed in his books. Get it?

I want you to read this again. Tell me how this is any different than how you have come to worship your God?

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » March 26, 2005, 2:55 am

Homercles wrote:I agree. Jesus was just a man. But I also believe he is one of the greatest and most influential men to ever walk this planet. I do not believe he was the son of god. I dont believe he walked on water. I dont believe he walked 40 days and nights in the desert with no food and water. I dont believe he rose from the dead after three days then ascended to heaven (hence, Im a very very VERY bad Catholic)

I do believe in his teachings. And you find those teachings in the New Testament. So I cant discard the Bible as a fantasy novel no matter how distorted and exagerrated it has become.

You chose Jordan as a modern day example. Nah. Id say Martin Luther King Jr is more appropriate. MLK was a great man. I believe in what he preached and what he taught. Just as I believe in what Jesus taught.

What if in the future, after centuries of distortions and exagerations (which is already under way thanks to Jesse and Sharpton) that MLK is viewed as a Holy Savior. Would those future distortions render his actual teachings as trivial and fantasy?

I just think that giving no respect to the bible, calling it pure fiction and fantasy, calling it lies and brainwashing, and discounting any historical information that can be found within it, is almost the same thing as claiming evolution is pure fiction and that dinosaurs are a creation of the devil.

I view evolution as the correct theory of mankinds development. I also view the bible as the best source of the teachings of Jesus (one of the most influential men ever to live)

This view can't stand up.
With Jesus there is only one of two possible ways to view what he said and did.
1)He was not truly who he said he was and not the son of God. In the case he is a liar and a heretic. How can you accept the teachings of a liar or heretic as "good"?
or
2)He truly is who he said he was, and if thats the case then what is written about the miracles he did and his purpose for being on the Earth have to be true.

You can't have it both ways. Either he was the Son of God or a Blasphemer.

If you don't believe that Jesus truly died on the cross for your sins and was risen from the dead on the third day, what is the point of following the relgion?

Truant · Post by **Truant** » March 26, 2005, 10:56 am

Sabek wrote:If you don't believe that Jesus truly died on the cross for your sins and was risen from the dead on the third day, what is the point of following the relgion?

They're hoping to get in on a loophole?

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » March 26, 2005, 11:57 am

Sabek wrote:
Homercles wrote:I agree. Jesus was just a man. But I also believe he is one of the greatest and most influential men to ever walk this planet. I do not believe he was the son of god. I dont believe he walked on water. I dont believe he walked 40 days and nights in the desert with no food and water. I dont believe he rose from the dead after three days then ascended to heaven (hence, Im a very very VERY bad Catholic)

I do believe in his teachings. And you find those teachings in the New Testament. So I cant discard the Bible as a fantasy novel no matter how distorted and exagerrated it has become.

You chose Jordan as a modern day example. Nah. Id say Martin Luther King Jr is more appropriate. MLK was a great man. I believe in what he preached and what he taught. Just as I believe in what Jesus taught.

What if in the future, after centuries of distortions and exagerations (which is already under way thanks to Jesse and Sharpton) that MLK is viewed as a Holy Savior. Would those future distortions render his actual teachings as trivial and fantasy?

I just think that giving no respect to the bible, calling it pure fiction and fantasy, calling it lies and brainwashing, and discounting any historical information that can be found within it, is almost the same thing as claiming evolution is pure fiction and that dinosaurs are a creation of the devil.

I view evolution as the correct theory of mankinds development. I also view the bible as the best source of the teachings of Jesus (one of the most influential men ever to live)
This view can't stand up.
With Jesus there is only one of two possible ways to view what he said and did.
1)He was not truly who he said he was and not the son of God. In the case he is a liar and a heretic. How can you accept the teachings of a liar or heretic as "good"?
or
2)He truly is who he said he was, and if thats the case then what is written about the miracles he did and his purpose for being on the Earth have to be true.

You can't have it both ways. Either he was the Son of God or a Blasphemer.

If you don't believe that Jesus truly died on the cross for your sins and was risen from the dead on the third day, what is the point of following the relgion?

what hes trying to say is the bible was written about 5 generations AFTER jesus died..its not all fact as its not all fiction..maybe jesus said "were all children of god" and over time his message has been perverted to as it now is in the bible, as christians throughout history have perverted the message of jesus, mohammed etc

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » March 26, 2005, 12:23 pm

Winnow wrote:
Adex_Xeda wrote: It's like a lightning bolt from a clear sky when you catch him tweaking reality to take care of you. God responds.
You can hypnotize someone and get them to pretty much believe anything. Hypnotize, tell them a huge teddy bear is god, and watch them believe it. Its the same for any belief. They convince themselves that a certain "being" or thing is responsible for curing their pain when it's a state of mind that has nothing to do with an outside force.

I break my leg, you break your leg, we both have the capability of ignoring the pain based on how we deal with it mentally. I could picture the perfect set of hooters and calm myself and take my mind off the pain. You choose to believe someone is doing it for you. Yay you. Just don't take any orders from him to start slaughtering people like during the crusades or then others have to step in...or can you still pick and choose what you want from him and believe that only what he tells you is correct and others just aren't praying right? ah yes, inc excuses!

God = a fancy imaginary pal or blanky

Atheists have the ability to handle mental issues in ways that don't require mysterious forces.

Actually Winnow...while I have no proof He exists...you have no proof that He does not exist. Yet you speak definitively as if you are certain that God does not exist. I have Faith in what I believe...you have faith in what you believe...neither of us will know until after we are dead....and if your supposition is correct...we may never know.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 26, 2005, 1:42 pm

Moonwynd wrote:
Winnow wrote:
Adex_Xeda wrote: It's like a lightning bolt from a clear sky when you catch him tweaking reality to take care of you. God responds.
You can hypnotize someone and get them to pretty much believe anything. Hypnotize, tell them a huge teddy bear is god, and watch them believe it. Its the same for any belief. They convince themselves that a certain "being" or thing is responsible for curing their pain when it's a state of mind that has nothing to do with an outside force.

I break my leg, you break your leg, we both have the capability of ignoring the pain based on how we deal with it mentally. I could picture the perfect set of hooters and calm myself and take my mind off the pain. You choose to believe someone is doing it for you. Yay you. Just don't take any orders from him to start slaughtering people like during the crusades or then others have to step in...or can you still pick and choose what you want from him and believe that only what he tells you is correct and others just aren't praying right? ah yes, inc excuses!

God = a fancy imaginary pal or blanky

Atheists have the ability to handle mental issues in ways that don't require mysterious forces.
Actually Winnow...while I have no proof He exists...you have no proof that He does not exist. Yet you speak definitively as if you are certain that God does not exist. I have Faith in what I believe...you have faith in what you believe...neither of us will know until after we are dead....and if your supposition is correct...we may never know.

True. We won't know until we are dead. I just find it fascinating that people in this day and age of information and technology, still believe in magic.

Animale · Post by **Animale** » March 26, 2005, 1:47 pm

Asking to prove a negative is impossible. Therefore nobody can prove that God doesn't exist. However, the opposite should be true... if there is God then there should be a method to prove he exists. People have tried for a long time, and it hasn't happened. Does that mean that God doesn't exist? No. It only means that widely accepted "proof" doesn't exist, yet.

Animale

Lisandre · Post by **Lisandre** » March 26, 2005, 2:52 pm

Lohrno wrote:
Adex_Xeda wrote: Santa Claus never changes the variables surrounding my life in response to prayer. The easter bunny never stirred my heart into being less selfish and more loving. The tooth fairy never gave me peace at times when I cryed out in pain. God did. It's like a lightning bolt from a clear sky when you catch him tweaking reality to take care of you. God responds.
I would contend that this is because you do not have enough faith in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

When I was young, and I firmly believed that Santa Claus existed, I would always try to be good around Christmas time so I would get my gift my him.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 26, 2005, 3:27 pm

Now, I'm not going to try to convince anyone that God doesn't exist or he does... But I really want an answer to this question. If you believe in God very much and that he talks to you, I ask this:

"What makes you think that you are talking to God? Many other people say they talk to God and God tells them something different from what they tell you. Is it that you are talking to God and they are deluding themselves? Or are you? Or are neither or are both?"

nobody · Post by **nobody** » March 26, 2005, 3:59 pm

Animale wrote:nobody can prove that God doesn't exist.

i can but i choose not to.

my question is why does it matter? who cares what anyone else believes in? just do your thing and let everyone else do theirs.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 26, 2005, 4:30 pm

Lisandre wrote:
When I was young, and I firmly believed that Santa Claus existed, I would always try to be good around Christmas time so I would get my gift my him.

I can confirm that Lisandre also thought Gaklak was Santa Claus for awhile!

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » March 26, 2005, 6:13 pm

Winnow wrote:
Lisandre wrote:
When I was young, and I firmly believed that Santa Claus existed, I would always try to be good around Christmas time so I would get my gift my him.
I can confirm that Lisandre also thought Gaklak was Santa Claus for awhile!

Not sure who Gaklak is...but...

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » March 26, 2005, 6:23 pm

Adex:

I am willing to accept that I may have some sort of mental filter or block that prevents me from seeing or understanding or accepting God.

However, believe me, if I were aware of this filters existence or by what processes it functioned, I would end it. Thus far I have not discovered it, although I continue to remain open to the possibility.

So why is it that God chose to bypass your filter and speak to you, move you, change your life and not mine? Is there something inherently more valuable about you which made you worth saving and me not?

You said earlier that you must accept God and then he will come to you. This strikes me as nonsensical. How can you accept something in which you do not believe? What particular steps should I take to follow your methodology? I could pretend to believe in God, but I've done that before and he hasn't revealed himself to me. It strikes me that accepting God's existence without believing in him is nothing more than fantasy, and I find it hard to imagine that God would choose to reveal himself only to those people who chose to accept a fantasy that they believed to be false. What sort of moral characteristics are these people displaying that makes God smile upon them and involve himself in their life?

I'm half Jewish, ethnically. I've never been to a church service in my life. Both of my parents are agnostic, and almost every major intellectual influence on my life has been either agnostic or atheist. Yet there have been times in my life when I have, quite literally, prayed to God. At that time there was nothing I wanted more than for God to exist and answer my prayers. But nothing happened. I was not moved in the way you describe in any way whatsoever. Why not? Given my totally un-Christian background, what else can I do to attempt to bypass this "filter?"

Alternately, consider this. Many people experience psychological processes similar to those that you are describing (stirring your heart, giving you peace, etc). These processes are ascribed to several different sources. You view them as arising from God. Other people view them as arising from Vishnu or enlightenment or Confucian order or communion with nature or mastery of one's psychological desires. It seems that the probability that a person will ascribe these processes to one source rather than another is heavily affected by geography. For example, more Europeans ascribe these processes to God than do to Confucian order. However, more Chinese ascribe these processes to Confucian order than to God. The same pattern holds true worldwide: People explain these processes in a way which is consistent with their cultural background.

What do you think about the idea that all of these people are describing some sort of universal human experience, knowledge, or truth, but, because they are unable to articulate the enormity of the concept, describe it through these religious or natural analogies?

Another question: If Christianity is "universal truth," why is it that no concept of Christianity existed in the Americas or Africa or Asia before the arrival of Christian missionaries? Did God damn all those millions of people to hell simply because of geographic and temporal misfortune? How can you defend this ethically? If Christianity is universal truth, why has a Christian consciousness never developed in an area where Christianity was not introduced?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 26, 2005, 6:30 pm

Sueven wrote:But nothing happened. I was not moved in the way you describe in any way whatsoever. Why not? Given my totally un-Christian background, what else can I do to attempt to bypass this "filter?"

A 100.00 donation to the church will fix that my son. I hear some churches are offering a 85.00 special to hear god if you promise to preach on a street corner 15 minutes a week.

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » March 26, 2005, 9:11 pm

nobody wrote:
Animale wrote:nobody can prove that God doesn't exist.
i can but i choose not to.

my question is why does it matter? who cares what anyone else believes in? just do your thing and let everyone else do theirs.

Actually it DO matter, when someone who believe something try to force their beliefs on others (which for some strange reason seems to be mainly religious people who got this problem).

Just to take some random subjects, lets pick abortion first. You got some people who think its their own choice. They dont go around forcing anti abortion people to get abortions. On the other hand, we got the anti abortion guys, who with their belief want to get everyone to believe what they do, and in some extreme cases go as far as to kill people to get their beliefs heard.

We got the Terri Schiavo case, where we got very religious parents, who seems to be the one causing all the problems, because they dont with to respect the wishes of their daughter (IF the husband tell the truth).

We got the Volcanoes of the Deep Sea imax picture case (http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/view ... hp?t=13933), where strangely its again religious beliefs that are used to repress the movie.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » March 26, 2005, 9:31 pm

i see your point. i just think that's the way it SHOULD work, let everyone do their thing. (within reason of course)

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » March 27, 2005, 4:22 am

Sueven, you asked like 30 questions man. It would take 4 hours to answer them all completely. This is why coffee shops exist, one on one conversations.

I'll answer the top one before I go to bed. I'll try to answer your others as I get time. Maybe we can hash it out over a phone call. It's faster communication method.

God did make the first move. He saw that we needed some major fixing and logged on as Jesus to give us a method to clean up. The problem is people nowadays have been blinded by all the flak the devil throws up to keep people away. Other religions, similar spiritual fulllfillment, extra prophets, and failings of christians are all used and nutured by the devil to prevent and trip you up from accepting Jesus's act of purification. That acceptance is the key to being tight with God. God is perfection, he can't really relate to you unless all of your failings are fixed. Allowing Jesus to take the punishment for your sins is the key fix.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » March 27, 2005, 5:20 am

So Jesus is the pet taking the HT?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 27, 2005, 8:44 am

Sionistic wrote:So Jesus is the pet taking the HT?

Humans just don't have the hitpoints to be taking HT's.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » March 27, 2005, 2:14 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote: God did make the first move. He saw that we needed some major fixing and logged on as Jesus to give us a method to clean up. The problem is people nowadays have been blinded by all the flak the devil throws up to keep people away. Other religions, similar spiritual fulllfillment, extra prophets, and failings of christians are all used and nutured by the devil to prevent and trip you up from accepting Jesus's act of purification. That acceptance is the key to being tight with God. God is perfection, he can't really relate to you unless all of your failings are fixed. Allowing Jesus to take the punishment for your sins is the key fix.

so we haven't had a fix in 2000 years?... SOE > God.

no personal disrespect meant... but man you are blind to reality.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 27, 2005, 3:19 pm

So basically Adex you believe Satan created the other religions to blind people to Jesus' life, is that correct? The god you worship is the real one because the rest are creations of Satan?

If that's the case then what makes you think that say Christianity was a creation of Satan and the Jewish or Islam one is the real God? They might say the same thing...

Many others would say they opened themselves up to Allah or the Jewish God, and it filled them up like you described. Your experience is not unique... With that in mind, what makes you feel that you are right and they are wrong?

PS: I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I would just like to know because many people say the same things...Consider this a philosophical discussion.

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » March 27, 2005, 4:29 pm

My original post was about a very interesting scientific discovery. You bums derailed my thread!!

I think one of the issues is that the majority of you who have chimed in saying religion is some form of *magic* or that we who believe are *deluded* and not in *reality*...that we somehow are weak because we do believe in God.

You choose to live your life accountable only to yourselves. You say we are using our belief in God as a crutch and that we use it in times of mental/physical/emotional duress. Well you know what..you are exactly right. We believe...and it is not something that is easily explainable. We have faith in something greater than ourselves. We have faith in a God that created us for a purpose...a purpose we may not know...but a purpose none the less.

So in times of great strife...when we are at our lowest...when we feel all hope is lost...we know we are not alone...there is a light in the darkness. You who do not believe will see this as weak grasp on reality...and even moreso you will see this as a character flaw since we are apt to rely on a strength that does not come from within.

No one can explain faith. Faith and belief in something greater than myself has sustained me and comforted me for a very long time. Not only do I believe in God and Jesus...I believe in an afterlife. I have had many friends and family leave this mortal coil...and I still talk with them. You may think it is crazy and just childish fantasy to believe that they can hear me...but I have faith that they can and faith that I will see them again someday. And like I said in an earlier post...if my faith is wrong and you are right...It will not matter much anyway..to you or to me.

I think the one thing that people find hard to swallow is that one pust themselves second to God. This feels unnatural to most and it is not something people are willing to do by their very nature. The other thing is that skepticism demands proof. Faith demands belief without proof.

But for now...my faith is a great and powerful thing. My faith makes me weak in your eyes...but it makes me stronger than you know in mine. And after all, why should it matter to you if I find comfort and strength in my faith? I will share the message...but ultimately it is up to each individual to accept that message. I will never force my beliefs upon anyone.

Respectfully,

Moon

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 27, 2005, 5:25 pm

Well while I agree that those that speak less of you because of your faith can have a nice big cup of STFU, I am interested in hearing your answers to the questions I have posited...

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 27, 2005, 6:22 pm

Moonwynd wrote:
You choose to live your life accountable only to yourselves. You say we are using our belief in God as a crutch and that we use it in times of mental/physical/emotional duress. Well you know what..you are exactly right. We believe...and it is not something that is easily explainable. We have faith in something greater than ourselves. We have faith in a God that created us for a purpose...a purpose we may not know...but a purpose none the less.

So in times of great strife...when we are at our lowest...when we feel all hope is lost...we know we are not alone...there is a light in the darkness. You who do not believe will see this as weak grasp on reality...and even moreso you will see this as a character flaw since we are apt to rely on a strength that does not come from within.

Yes, religion is a crutch. I'm not saying it doesn't help. People need a purpose in their life. For those that don't want to find their own, religion steps in as the easy answer for finding that motivational purpose.

Your mental health is key to living a long life. It's important to have a focus or goal that you are continuously working toward and "believe" in. Mine is rather simple. I want to know all I can about this world before I die. Along with that, I want to use my imagination to its fullest capacity as like religious people, ultimately, I think our bodies are worthless and our mind and ability for cognitive thought is what makes us special. Where I differ is that I believe the buck stops here and see no reason to believe there is anything more. I'm not going to believe just to believe inhopes that there is. It's a waste of our precious short life.

"So in times of great strife...when we are at our lowest...when we feel all hope is lost...we know we are not alone...there is a light in the darkness."

My example of picturing the perfect set of breasts to change my mental state in times of strife and depression fullfills exactly what your believe in god does. It doesn't matter what it is, as long as it changes your state of mind long enough for you to endure whatever the hardship is. It's fear of death plain an simple. When I've been close to an accident, my mind searches at blazing speed for something that will save me. There's no rationale to it besides it being a natural instinct to survive. That's a leftover human instinct just as our sexual instincts are leftover from our natural 100 million+ year history of our evolution as primates.

So in closing, believe whatever you must to stay sane and focused but keep that shit away from your children. The only thing you should be teaching them is that they need to find a purpose and focus in life for their mental wellbeing and then let them discover for themselves what that is.

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » March 27, 2005, 11:05 pm

Winnow wrote: Yes, religion is a crutch. I'm not saying it doesn't help. People need a purpose in their life. For those that don't want to find their own, religion steps in as the easy answer for finding that motivational purpose.

Once again you infer something that is not true. You assume that because I have a belief in God that I am not interested in finding my own purpose in life. My goal to find out as much as I can about this world and to try and find my purpose is something that drives me every single day. I am a Christian yes...but I yearn to know the *why*. For example, I read Buddhist writings almost daily...I read very human inspired thoughts...people like Rilke...and I try to piece together the interwoven puzzle that is my life..and my place in the universe.

So in closing, believe whatever you must to stay sane and focused but keep that shit away from your children. The only thing you should be teaching them is that they need to find a purpose and focus in life for their mental wellbeing and then let them discover for themselves what that is.

Again, your belief system does not apply to my children...conversely I do not force my belief system upon your children. The one thing we both share in common is an acceptance that we as human beings are governed by free will...choosing to do what we think is right for ourselves.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 27, 2005, 11:22 pm

I must be on ignore or something. > <

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 27, 2005, 11:26 pm

Moonwynd wrote:The one thing we both share in common is an acceptance that we as human beings are governed by free will...choosing to do what we think is right for ourselves.

Exactly, so give your kids a fighting chance and don't force religion down their throats. Choosing to do what you think is right for yourself, not your kids in the same manner that a racist shouldn't be telling his children that that they're better than others because of the color of their skin. I'm sure you won't see the relationship but that's ok. I tried. Freewill = letting your children decide for themselves with an equal playing field when they're old enough to handle such things.

If you've been following some of the other threads on "consenting adults" you'll know that young kids are impressionable and not ready to make decisions on things like religion. That's why they take it up the ass from priests without a fight. They've been taught to respect religious figures and don't know any better. If you are a fair person, you'll leave the religious decisions up to the child until they are old enough to ponder such things as I wouldn't enforce a religion or no religion on a child. Each new generation deserves a fair shake at freeing themselves from outdated things and beliefs. They will always have a chance to embrace them once they're old enough to understand them.

Religion should be for adults to be introduced after the age of 18.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 27, 2005, 11:31 pm

You make a good case Winnow, but I don't think that should be enforcable. Let parents raise their kids with whatever traditions/religion they see fit. Kids will come to their own conclusion anyways unless they become sheep later in life too (IE not thinking for themselves..choosing a religion or lack thereof just because their peers are? It happens...)

Personally I'm not going to tell them what they should think either...

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » March 28, 2005, 12:58 am

Moonwynd wrote:Actually Winnow...while I have no proof He exists...you have no proof that He does not exist. Yet you speak definitively as if you are certain that God does not exist. I have Faith in what I believe...you have faith in what you believe...neither of us will know until after we are dead....and if your supposition is correct...we may never know.

I guess my stance on this is that Christianity (and other assorted religions) preaches that God is the Supreme Being, that he is just and merciful; that he is all powerful... and I see a distinct lack of supporting evidence. How is cancer, Alzheimer's or one of any number of fatal wasting diseases merciful? How is wide spread starvation in some areas merciful? I'm not blaming man's sins on him per se, but if he was all powerful, should he/her/it not have the ability to stop those as well?

I agree that the universe is a big place and there is a lot we can't explain about it, thus I am unwilling to totally dismiss the possibility of higher powers per se, but if it/they exist I see no resemblance to the ideal that so many hold up.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » March 28, 2005, 1:14 am

So... how about that discovery of the T-Rex tissue.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » March 28, 2005, 1:16 am

I believe religion was the obvious conclusion for primitive mankind...

I also believe that in todays world, they are all laughable.

The only reason you believe what you believe, is because your parents believed it... that was good enough for me, until i was about 10.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » March 28, 2005, 1:17 am

Can we grow a T-Rex? and should we?....

I'd hafta ask why?.. just because we can?

what answers could it hold? and what are the risks?

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 28, 2005, 1:31 am

I think we should. We would learn a lot just from the process of actually trying to do that. 5 T-Rex are not going to take over the world. We can keep them on an island when they grow, airlift in food, and we can gun them down if they're getting dangerous.

The "Was T-Rex a Scavenger or a Predator" debate will be solved at least...and we'll know if they were cold blooded or not...

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » March 28, 2005, 1:43 am

Fash wrote:what answers could it hold? and what are the risks?

Jurasic Park 4?

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » March 28, 2005, 8:35 am

Besides, we can make some more fun reality shows

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » March 28, 2005, 10:12 am

I'm for the "more fun" reality shows

Marb

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » March 28, 2005, 11:13 am

Extreme Survivor, cause everything nowadays is extreme.

For your first immunity challenge, you must not die....go.