NBA Discussion Thread*

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » April 10, 2008, 1:57 am

Was a very good game. And it was mostly Shaq on D on Duncan. And that was a pretty cheap shot from Bowen, but he's done worse.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 10, 2008, 2:32 am

Aardor wrote:Was a very good game. And it was mostly Shaq on D on Duncan. And that was a pretty cheap shot from Bowen, but he's done worse.

I seem to recall a nice block on Duncan by Amare and two or three posterizing dunks on Duncan by Amare. True Shaq was on Duncan most of the time...after, he is the Center.

Duncan can't stop Shaq or Amare while Shaq can and did stop Duncan. ...and that Spurs white guy with the gay hairband thing may as well not be out on the court. Advantage Suns in a big way.

The Spur's advantage is Parker over Nash on offense but how big is that advantage really? Nash is no slouch on offense himself and did just fine with thug Bowen hanging all over him all night long.

The Spurs are pretty much done when it comes to matching up with the Suns. They're 1-3 this year vs the Suns and 0-2 with Shaq in the lineup. Kurt Thomas is no help. Duncan isn't going to cut it. On offense, Shaq stops him now and on defense, Amare always abuses him (averaged 37 ppg in a playoff series vs Duncan) and Shaq was shooting baby hooks over Duncan all night long.

They can only hope for more cheap shots which I will place money on that they'll try against the Suns again this year if they meet.

The Suns want to avoid New Orleans if possible. Other than that, bring on the West.

Too slow TIm!

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » April 10, 2008, 2:45 am

I think Winnow's analysis of the Suns/Spurs matchup is relatively fair, if extremely hyperbolic, although Manu deserves a prominent mention as a factor. The addition of Shaq really transforms that matchup in particular, making the Suns the team with the big frontline and pretty much negating players like Kurt Thomas.

I do think that the Suns would also like to avoid Utah. The Carlos Boozer / Mehmet Okur frontcourt is not one which Shaq/Amare is well-equipped to defend. Okur's the center, but Shaq can't chase him around the perimeter, and Boozer is a crafty inside player who can thrive against Amare's inexperience and Shaq's lack of speed. Plus, there's the matchup problems that Williams creates for the Suns guards.

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » April 10, 2008, 11:02 am

Winnow wrote:
Aardor wrote:Was a very good game. And it was mostly Shaq on D on Duncan. And that was a pretty cheap shot from Bowen, but he's done worse.
I seem to recall a nice block on Duncan by Amare and two or three posterizing dunks on Duncan by Amare. True Shaq was on Duncan most of the time...after, he is the Center.

One blocked shot and dunks != good D by Amare on Duncan.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » April 10, 2008, 11:31 am

Aardor wrote:
Winnow wrote:
Aardor wrote:Was a very good game. And it was mostly Shaq on D on Duncan. And that was a pretty cheap shot from Bowen, but he's done worse.
I seem to recall a nice block on Duncan by Amare and two or three posterizing dunks on Duncan by Amare. True Shaq was on Duncan most of the time...after, he is the Center.
One blocked shot and dunks != good D by Amare on Duncan.

unless Amare was dunking into his own basket!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 10, 2008, 12:42 pm

Aardor wrote: One blocked shot and dunks != good D by Amare on Duncan.

Sure it does when Amare's a PF and weak side help on Duncan.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 10, 2008, 6:06 pm

Bowen = Dirty

http://digg.com/basketball/Amare_weak_OR_Bowen_dirty

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » April 10, 2008, 6:32 pm

Winnow wrote:Sure it does when Amare's a PF and weak side help on Duncan.

It means that he made at least one help-defense play during the course of the game...

The dunks on Duncan really don't mean anything for his D.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 10, 2008, 8:03 pm

I've already presented the link that shows Amare as the most efficient player in the NBA but this Duncan love has got to stop!

Amare stacks up rather well IMO.

I realize people bag on Amare here because of my Suns posts but he's the dominator this year.

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » April 10, 2008, 10:11 pm

While Amare is great, especially with Shaq on the team, that fails to list anything regarding defense besides blocks.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 10, 2008, 10:22 pm

Aardor wrote:While Amare is great, especially with Shaq on the team, that fails to list anything regarding defense besides blocks.

Steals

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » April 10, 2008, 10:56 pm

Blocks and steals are highly incomplete indicators of defense. Conventional stats are not good indicators of defense. You need to watch the games to evaluate defense.

And what "Duncan love" are you talking about? I don't think anybody here is arguing anything other than "the fact that Amare blocked one of Duncan's shots and dunked on him a few times does not mean that he played stellar defense on Duncan."

Quit it with the paranoid delusions!

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » April 10, 2008, 11:35 pm

lol, arguing .8 steals a game to .7

comedy

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 10, 2008, 11:38 pm

Ah, the old "objective viewing". I bring hard 2008 stats and you retaliate with touchy feely "gut feeling" evaluations?

That's not going to win in the court room and especially not on the VV board where "he asked to be banned" is beyond contesting. Ah wait, that's only if it favors the cliqué so I guess I lose!

The comparison between Amare and Duncan in the image is overall for this year, not defense specific (although Amare wins the majority of defensive stats, two out of three, and crushes Duncan in the offensive categories)

6-2 Amare Overall
2-1 Amare Defensive
4-1 Amare Offensive

*waits for someone to bring up the past which isn't a factor in the discussion

http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp

And of course, Amare is #2 in effeiciency behind LeBron while Duncan squeeks in the top ten at #10.

And in typical lawyer bullshit speak, you somehow manage to turn this:

Winnow wrote:I seem to recall a nice block on Duncan by Amare and two or three posterizing dunks on Duncan by Amare. True Shaq was on Duncan most of the time...after(all), he is the Center.

into this:

Sueven wrote:I don't think anybody here is arguing anything other than "the fact that Amare blocked one of Duncan's shots and dunked on him a few times does not mean that he played stellar defense on Duncan."

huh? you people are arguing with yourselves. Somehow me saying Amare had a nice block on Duncan turns into me saying Amare played "stellar" defense.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » April 11, 2008, 12:25 am

There goes a 49-50 win season down the fucking tubes

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » April 11, 2008, 12:32 am

As a big Iverson fan, I was thrilled about that game

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » April 11, 2008, 1:04 am

Fucking crime the most entertaining opponent in the NBA won't be in the playoffs. The W's were not built to go far but who didn't want to see them against anyone in the west for sheer fun factor. 18 games over 500 at the end of the year and a lottery team, the only justice will be the #1-3 pick. Once more... fucking crime

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 11, 2008, 1:33 am

Bummer Pherr, Golden State is fun to watch. The East should be ashamed of themselves.

Looks lke Atlanta is going to grab the eight seed in the East (currently 36-42 .462), taking away a lotto pick for the Suns. They'll get the ~17th pick in the draft instead I suppose.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » April 11, 2008, 9:54 am

The East has the worst 5 playoff teams, but the best 2 teams in the NBA. I guess that is a wash.

edit: Before you come back talking your Suns shit, sit down and realize you were 1-3 against those top 2 teams.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 11, 2008, 12:08 pm

Detroit and Boston are quality teams.

This year, six teams out of the West and two out of the East could win the Championship. Detroit will be a tougher opponent than Boston coming out of the East.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » April 11, 2008, 12:37 pm

Orlando is a LOT tougher than you realize. It would not be some enormous shocker if they ended up in the Finals or even winning it. Cleveland as well could give some teams from the West problems. This is one of the few years that I can ever remember where the matchups actually dictate who wins the whole thing. Every team has a team that would be a bad matchup for them.

Right now I think the most complete team in the NBA is Boston....adn their worst matchups would be against Cleveland, Washington, or the Lakers.

Detroit's worst matchup would be with Boston.

Spurs worst matchup is Suns.

Suns worst matchup is Denver, Boston, or Detroit.

I think you could make a list all the way down for all 16.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 11, 2008, 12:45 pm

The Suns worst matchup is New Orleans.

Chris Paul = Nash with defense and Tyson Chandler is the athletic type Center that is difficult for Shaq/Amare to defend.

Utah might also be a tough matchup for the Suns but I'm not as concerned as some others with that one over a seven game series.

In the East, it would be Detroit for sure as the worst matchup for the Suns.

While the West is going to be extremely hard series right off the bat, the best East teams ill be facing losers like Atlanta in the first round which Boston could beat with just their bench.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » April 11, 2008, 12:53 pm

Since you are going to rail on the East, here are the scores from the Suns agaisnt the East's playoff teams over the last 2 months

home vs Washington 108-107 W
home vs Boston 85-77 W
home vs Detroit 86-116 L
home vs Philly 114-119 L
at Destroit 105-110 L
at Boston 97-117 L
at Philly 107-93 W

Not exactly dominating is it?

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » April 11, 2008, 12:55 pm

Winnow wrote:The Suns worst matchup is New Orleans.

Chris Paul = Nash with defense and Tyson Chandler is the athletic type Center that is difficult for Shaq/Amare to defend.

Utah might also be a tough matchup for the Suns but I'm not as concerned as some others with that one over a seven game series.

In the East, it would be Detroit for sure as the worst matchup for the Suns.

While the West is going to be extremely hard series right off the bat, the best East teams ill be facing losers like Atlanta in the first round which Boston could beat with just their bench.

You split your series with Atlanta this year. Care to revise your statement?

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » April 11, 2008, 1:01 pm

Detroit is the better team but Orlando will push Detroit hard enough that the C's come out of the East

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » April 11, 2008, 1:46 pm

I mean, the West is clearly better than the East. Clearly. But that doesn't mean there's not some danger lurking in the East. I'd say that the top six teams in the East are threatening-- they're not all championship contenders, but they're dangerous.

Boston-- obviously a championship contender and I think they're being underestimated here. This is a team that plays fearsome defense and highly efficient offense. They're like the Spurs in years past. That is a championship formula. They have a shooter, a slasher, and an interior presence.

Detroit-- getting enough respect here that I don't have to defend them

Orlando-- flawed but dangerous. Dwight Howard is obviously a beast who's capable of taking over if he can play with consistency in the playoffs. Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu provide scoring punch and danger from the outside. Their point guards are unpredictable-- Nelson and Arroyo are both shoot-first guards who are a bit too short to defend guys like Billups and Cassell really effectively, but if they're on their games, they are also capable of doing a lot of damage. I think Orlando is better than Houston, Dallas and Denver at least.

Cleveland-- has the single most dominating player in the game. If LeBron dominates and their defense plays consistent for four consecutive series, they could win the title. Very very unlikely, but they could.

Wizards-- persevered through some major injuries. Antawn Jamison has had the year of his life (seriously, he's averaging 20/10 as a perimeter-oriented forward, and check his plus/minus... I think he's number 3 in the league). He's the only one of the Wizards top players who has been healthy the whole year. Caron Butler, playing the best ball of his life, injured his hip and sat for a long time. Now he's back and healthy and playing great again. Gilbert missed almost all of the season with a knee injury, but he's back and looks like he's got some energy in him. The team chemistry looks great. Almost all of the role players-- Daniels, Blatche, Haywood, Stevenson, Young-- have stepped it up and played well this year. If they can pull it together in the playoffs, they could be dangerous. A Cavs/Wizards series in the first round could be great, and Washington might be able to give Boston some trouble in round 2.

Sixers-- are on a 24-10 run. That's .705. The Hornets, the top team in the West, are at .705. 'Nuff said.

Again, the point of all this is not to argue that the East is better than the West. It's just to point out that the only two gimme series in the Eastern Playoffs will be Boston and Detroit's first round matchups against Atlanta and Toronto, assuming form holds. It's not like the Celtics and Pistons are just going to waltz into the ECF and play a game of pinochle to figure out who gets to play the winner of the Western gauntlet.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » April 13, 2008, 12:19 pm

go rockets?!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 13, 2008, 4:52 pm

The Suns are locked in the 6th seed so that might help Golden State's cause as the two teams play on Monday. Phoenix will be resting players.

Hard to tell who the Suns will face in the 3rd seed. It could be LA, Houston, New Orleans or San Antonio as far as I can tell. Any of those besides New Orleans would be nice.

noel · Post by **noel** » April 13, 2008, 11:57 pm

Pherr the Dorf wrote:go rockets?!

As in, "go home after the first round?" ?

Lakers are playing really well now that Pau is back in the lineup. After the Rockets get done tanking to the Nuggets, I believe the Lakers just have to beat the Kings to lock up #1 in the West.

I'd love to see the Suns and the Lakers in a Western Conference Final.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » April 14, 2008, 1:15 am

No... as in don't fucking lay down like a bunch of turds against the nuggets... which they promptly did anyways... fuckers. Only way in is to win the last 2 and pray seattle stuns the nuggets.

I am looking at only my east coast team (Magic) being in there.

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » April 14, 2008, 2:24 am

Another day, another game where the Pistons' bench handed another team's starters their asses.

This is the most solid the team has been in the past several years. The series against Boston will be epic.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 15, 2008, 7:42 pm

Posting this because it's amazing how many scenarios there still are with one game left in the season:

Suns' playoff scenarios still murky

34 comments by Paul Coro - Apr. 15, 2008 10:30 AM
The Arizona Republic

There are five remaining NBA games that could affect the Suns' playoff matchup fate, starting with tonight's New Orleans-Los Angeles Clippers games to Wednesday's slate of San Antonio-Utah, Clippers-Houston, Phoenix-Portland and New Orleans-Dallas.

Those games' outcomes can result in 32 different combinations but many result in the same playoff pairings. Phoenix landing in the No. 6 seed and facing No. 3 San Antonio in the first round is the most frequent possibility.

Unofficially, the possibilities are:

• No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 San Antonio (nine scenarios)

• No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 Utah (six scenarios)

• No. 4 Phoenix vs. No. 5 San Antonio (four scenarios)

• No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 New Orleans (four scenarios)

• No. 4 Phoenix vs. No. 5 Houston (three scenarios)

• No. 5 Phoenix vs. No. 4 Utah (three scenarios, all with Suns getting home-court advantage)

• No. 5 Phoenix vs. No. 4 Houston (two scenarios)

• No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 Houston (one scenario)

That boils down to 13 scenarios of facing San Antonio (four with Suns home-court advantage), nine scenarios of facing Utah (three with Suns home-court advantage), six scenarios of facing Houston (three with Suns home-court advantage) and four scenarios of facing New Orleans (all without home-court advantage).

Some of the above scenarios are unlikely because it would require Clippers' upsets of New Orleans and/or Houston.

This is an unofficial look at what various results from the aforementioned five regular-season games would mean for the Suns postseason. The scenarios of New Orleans splitting its final two games are combined because whether it would beat Dallas or the Clippers would not change the pairings:

• Utah wins, New Orleans wins two, Houston wins, Phoenix wins: No. 4 Phoenix vs. No. 5 Houston.

• Utah wins, New Orleans wins two, Clippers win, Phoenix wins: No. 4 Phoenix vs. No. 5 San Antonio.

• Utah wins, New Orleans wins two, Houston wins, Portland wins: No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 Utah.

• Utah wins, New Orleans wins two, Clippers win, Portland wins: No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 Utah.

• Utah wins, New Orleans splits, Houston wins, Phoenix wins: No. 4 Phoenix vs. No. 5 Houston.

• Utah wins, New Orleans splits, Clippers win, Phoenix wins: No. 4 Phoenix vs. No. 5 San Antonio.

• Utah wins, New Orleans splits, Houston wins, Portland wins: No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 Utah.

• Utah wins, New Orleans splits, Clippers wins, Portland wins: No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 Utah.

• Utah wins, New Orleans loses two, Houston wins, Phoenix wins: No. 5 Phoenix vs. No. 4 Houston.

• Utah wins, New Orleans loses two, Clippers win, Phoenix wins: No. 4 Phoenix vs. No. 5 San Antonio.

• Utah wins, New Orleans loses two, Houston wins, Portland wins: No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 Houston.

• Utah wins, New Orleans loses two, Clippers win, Portland wins: No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 New Orleans.

• San Antonio wins, New Orleans wins two, Houston wins, Phoenix wins: No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 San Antonio.

• San Antonio wins, New Orleans wins two, Clippers win, Phoenix wins: No. 5 Phoenix vs. No. 4 Houston.

• San Antonio wins, New Orleans wins two, Houston wins, Portland wins: No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 San Antonio.

• San Antonio wins, New Orleans wins two, Clippers win, Portland wins: No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 San Antonio.

• San Antonio wins, New Orleans splits, Houston wins, Phoenix wins: No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 San Antonio.

• San Antonio wins, New Orleans splits, Clippers win, Phoenix wins: No. 5 Phoenix vs. No. 4 Utah.

• San Antonio wins, New Orleans splits, Houston wins, Portland wins: No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 San Antonio.

• San Antonio wins, New Orleans splits, Clippers win, Portland wins: No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 San Antonio.

• San Antonio wins, New Orleans loses two, Houston wins, Phoenix wins: No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 New Orleans.

• San Antonio wins, New Orleans loses two, Clippers win, Phoenix wins: No. 5 Phoenix vs. No. 4 Utah.

• San Antonio wins, New Orleans loses two, Houston wins, Portland wins: No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 New Orleans.

• San Antonio wins, New Orleans loses two, Clippers win, Portland wins: No. 6 Phoenix vs. No. 3 New Orleans.

noel · Post by **noel** » April 15, 2008, 10:35 pm

Crazy.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » April 17, 2008, 12:05 pm

Spurs it is!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 17, 2008, 12:28 pm

Zamtuk wrote:Spurs it is!

Bring 'em on!

May as well get them out of the way first. Besides Houston, that's the first round team I was hoping for. Might end up with New Orleans in the second round though depending on the outcomes.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » April 17, 2008, 12:47 pm

Three questions that will determine the Suns/Spurs series:

1. Do the Suns old guys (Nash, Hill, Shaq, Bell) have the legs to play with max intensity through the whole series?
2. Can Tim Duncan inexplicably start scoring 30 ppg as soon as the playoffs start again?
3. How much of a 4th-quarter killer can Manu be?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 17, 2008, 1:08 pm

Sueven wrote:Three questions that will determine the Suns/Spurs series:

1. Do the Suns old guys (Nash, Hill, Shaq, Bell) have the legs to play with max intensity through the whole series?
2. Can Tim Duncan inexplicably start scoring 30 ppg as soon as the playoffs start again?
3. How much of a 4th-quarter killer can Manu be?

1. The Spurs aren't spring chickens themselves. Amare > Duncan in terms of youthful energy. Bowen isn't young either on the Spurs side and Horry probably doesn't even play anymore.

2. Don't know but I'm convinced that the Suns made the right moves to counter Duncan so Tony Parker will have to be the one that steps up for the Spurs (and Manu)

3. Amare is also a 4th quarter killer. It all depends on his foul situation though. He also needs to keep his cool as Popovich is a great coach but also encourages shady tactics like intentionally doing things (hard fouls, dirty play) to stop the flow of a game.

I think this series is as simple as finding out if the Spurs are crafty enough to get Shaq and Amare into foul trouble or if the refs let physical play (fair for both sides) go. We'll also have to see how the refs call the game for Bowen. He fouls constantly but it's up to the refs to determine when they call him out on it.

I really hope the refs and Stern don't determine the outcome of the series as they did last year (soon to be convicted ref and Sterns ridiculous suspensions)

edit: couch ---> coach

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » April 17, 2008, 1:21 pm

4. How many times is Bruce Bowen going to nut-shot Amare and not get called?

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » April 17, 2008, 1:26 pm

The fact that you're ALREADY blaming any potential loss on the refs is more than a little pathetic.

Winnow wrote:Amare is also a 4th quarter killer.

Is he?

http://www.82games.com/SCSORT11.HTM

Stats per 48 minutes of "super clutch" time:

Amare: 47.7 points, 47% shooting, 89% free throws. So yes, that's pretty damn good.
but...
Ginobili: 56.8 points, 62% shooting, 90% free throws. So yeah, that's better.

hat tip to the ESPN column which led me to that page

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 17, 2008, 1:30 pm

Sueven wrote:
Is he?

http://www.82games.com/SCSORT11.HTM

Stats per 48 minutes of "super clutch" time:

Amare: 47.7 points, 47% shooting, 89% free throws. So yes, that's pretty damn good.
but...
Ginobili: 56.8 points, 62% shooting, 90% free throws. So yeah, that's better.

hat tip to the ESPN column which led me to that page

Don't overrate that stat. Nash is the next player on the list of Spurs and Suns players with Duncan a pretty far 4th so I'm not sure how much of an impact this really is.

Amare's "Super Clutch" minutes/performance may vary wildly depending on his fouls so that's the more important stat to keep track of as the 4th quarter winds down.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » April 17, 2008, 1:43 pm

Winnow, all I'm saying is that Ginobili is seriously dangerous at the end of games, and it's possible he could steal a win or two for his team, and that could swing the series. It's a pretty straightforward point. You don't have to worry about it, but I'm sure Mike D'Antoni is.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 17, 2008, 1:43 pm

That "Super Clutch" stat is also not reliable because Amare and Nash might flip flop clutch games (depending on opponent, fouls, etc) as they're rated pretty even while Duncan is much lower on the Clutch list than Ginobili (and Amare/Nash). Evens out.

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » April 17, 2008, 1:53 pm

Winnow wrote:That "Super Clutch" stat is also not reliable because Amare and Nash might flip flop clutch games (depending on opponent, fouls, etc) as they're rated pretty even while Duncan is much lower on the Clutch list than Ginobili (and Amare/Nash). Evens out.

You of all people are talking about the reliability of stats, hahaha. I would like to see "super clutch" stats for previous playoffs.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » April 17, 2008, 1:56 pm

Winnow wrote:That "Super Clutch" stat is also not reliable because Amare and Nash might flip flop clutch games (depending on opponent, fouls, etc) as they're rated pretty even while Duncan is much lower on the Clutch list than Ginobili (and Amare/Nash). Evens out.

Look at the shooting percentages, not the points per minute.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 17, 2008, 2:11 pm

Aardor wrote:
Winnow wrote:That "Super Clutch" stat is also not reliable because Amare and Nash might flip flop clutch games (depending on opponent, fouls, etc) as they're rated pretty even while Duncan is much lower on the Clutch list than Ginobili (and Amare/Nash). Evens out.
You of all people are talking about the reliability of stats, hahaha. I would like to see "super clutch" stats for previous playoffs.

Check the Spurs/Suns series where Amare averaged 37ppg

It still could come down to fouls on Amare as he'll take more jumpers and be less effective (shooting percentage)

I know Ginobili has been clutch but he hasn't been clutch consistently vs the Suns. He may steal a game but so might Nash, or Amare, or Barbosa, etc.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » April 17, 2008, 2:16 pm

... hence why I said that a critical question was whether Ginobili would steal games or not.

Note that I DID NOT say that the Spurs would win the series because Ginobili would steal games.

Christ Winnow, not everything is a fucking attack on the Suns.

Do you disagree that the Spurs performance might have some effect on the outcome of the Spurs/Suns series?

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » April 17, 2008, 2:27 pm

Winnow wrote:
Aardor wrote:
Winnow wrote:That "Super Clutch" stat is also not reliable because Amare and Nash might flip flop clutch games (depending on opponent, fouls, etc) as they're rated pretty even while Duncan is much lower on the Clutch list than Ginobili (and Amare/Nash). Evens out.
You of all people are talking about the reliability of stats, hahaha. I would like to see "super clutch" stats for previous playoffs.
Check the Spurs/Suns series where Amare averaged 37ppg

It still could come down to fouls on Amare as he'll take more jumpers and be less effective (shooting percentage)

I know Ginobili has been clutch but he hasn't been clutch consistently vs the Suns. He may steal a game but so might Nash, or Amare, or Barbosa, etc.

Not saying I agree or disagree with you, i'm just commenting how before you ignored the fact that defense is not represented statistically, and now you're saying that the statistic isn't reliable.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 17, 2008, 2:33 pm

Sueven wrote:
Do you disagree that the Spurs performance might have some effect on the outcome of the Spurs/Suns series?

Occasionally the Spurs' actual performance determines the outcome instead of the refs. Yes.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 17, 2008, 2:41 pm

Ginobili vs the Suns this year:

Apr 9: 8pts
Mar 9: 22pts
Jan 31: 19pts
Dec 17: 18pts

His scoring average (for all teams) is 19.5 ppg for the season

Nothing special vs the Suns, if not a little worse when playing them. He only scored above his average (barely) once vs the Suns this season and scored less than half of it in another game.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » April 17, 2008, 3:09 pm

Sueven wrote:... hence why I said that a critical question was whether Ginobili would steal games or not.

Note that I DID NOT say that the Spurs would win the series because Ginobili would steal games.

Christ Winnow, not everything is a fucking attack on the Suns.

Do you disagree that the Spurs performance might have some effect on the outcome of the Spurs/Suns series?

Honestly, I don't know why you're bothering. He's not any different in this thread than any other thread here.