This touched a bit of a nerve. Gay adoption??

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » November 26, 2002, 10:38 pm

Dammit I go out to dinner and come back a ton of juicy threads passing.

Kyo,

Levicital laws are not invalidated, you bring them up one by one and there's a rational, common sense way to follow them.

The two you did bring up about cultish haircuts and Kosher practices I addressed above. You act however as if they went unanswered.

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Adelrune, I'm trying to stay light on theology but I say that Jesus didn't invalidate the old law, he enhanced it. A good christian doesn't violate the old laws, and doesn't ignore them. A christian leads a way of life that can be considered a new Kosher. Even Kyo's example of hair cuts, Jesus didn't invalidate. Paul backs this up by saying if you cause another to fall by your actions then you screwed up. If you got some funky haircut or tatoo that identified you as someone who doesn't follow God you violated the rule that Kyo mentioned. Jesus didn't invalidate that.

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ALSO NOTICE! The scriptures refer to the "act" of homosexuality.

God loves gays, God loves liars, God loves cheaters,
God loves people despite anything they do.
What he "hates" are sinful acts.

If you were born with a genetic weakness to booze or drugs, God loves you and hates to see you act on that impulse by getting drunk or wasted.

If you were born with a genetic impulse to lie, God loves you and hates to see you act the impulse.

If you were born with genetic hardwires to be gay, God loves you and hates to see you "act" homosexually.

God loves people. God hates sinful action. See the difference?

If a christian "hates" another person for any reason they are a hypocrite. We're all in the same boat.

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Arborealus,

Ethics are defined as,

A set of principles of right conduct.
A theory or a system of moral values (http://www.dictionary.com)

I simply choose to follow the "ethics" laid down by the Archetect of the Universe. ( I figure he knows best)

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Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » November 26, 2002, 10:38 pm

kyoukan type-R wrote:Don't play fucking word games with me; it doesn't make you look any smarter.

If this is your way of saying you give up, I accept. You people may want to print this one out, this is a first for her.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » November 26, 2002, 10:39 pm

Sinfutura/Sinsem wrote:Also, I do think Homosexuality is a genetic abnormality. Just as people can be born with both male and female sex organs, some people can be born abnormality that cause it have sexual desire for the same sex

Nope...totally different...Homosexuality results from a normal genetic expression (no chromosomal or in utero abnormalities)

Androgyny is the incomplete or incorrect expression of sex-linked traits due to hormonal imbalance in utero in individuals having otherwise normal genome.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » November 26, 2002, 10:40 pm

Good points Adex, very good.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » November 26, 2002, 10:46 pm

Krimson Klaw wrote:[If this is your way of saying you give up, I accept. You people may want to print this one out, this is a first for her.

What the fuck?

You: Show me where it says all gays go to hell

Me: When you sin you go to hell. That is why they are sins. This is a list of sins. Contained herein this list is one that says you men can't have sex with other men.

You: Show me exactly where it says all gays go to hell in that exact phrase in those exact words or everything you've said is invalidated lol owned my brain is incapable of combining concepts together into a single concept please spoon feed me more fucking bullshit mr. phelps I require to be lead around my some stupid homophobic dumbfuck's interpretation of the bible instead of reading it myself lets roll!

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » November 26, 2002, 10:51 pm

I call you out on a point and now you say I have to read between your lines? *big OK sign* I got it now. The banana is not dancing, it's throwing a tantrum I think. and btw, sin does not absolutely send you to hell (you can send your thanks to Jesus for that little gem), but not being remorseful for it and trying to correct it will.

noel · Post by **noel** » November 26, 2002, 10:54 pm

Does this mean that if you're a man, and you're attracted to other men, even if in all other ways you're a perfect Christian, acting upon that attaction will send you to hell? Should homosexuals walk around feeling constant guilt?

Secondly, if it's determined that homosexuality is genetic, and the individual in question has no choice from birth in which sex to be attracted to, doesn't that mean that God is setting them up for failure from the getgo?

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » November 26, 2002, 10:58 pm

Aranel, I honestly do not know. I guess life would be MUCH easier if God filled us in with how he will calculate how much each sin is worth, and how much sin it takes before you have crossed the point of no return. Unfortunately, he has not given us his *get to heaven* equation, other than to do what he says. That's why I stated earlier that I do not believe just because you are gay that you are guaranteed to go to hell. No one knows the equation, only the answer on judgement day.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » November 26, 2002, 10:59 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:
Arborealus,

Ethics are defined as,

A set of principles of right conduct.
A theory or a system of moral values (http://www.dictionary.com)

I simply choose to follow the "ethics" laid down by the Archetect of the Universe. ( I figure he knows best)

Ok I'll take 1. A. A set of principles of right conduct.

Morals are inherently a code of ethics, ethics are not inherently moral. Medical Ethics and Business Ethics have no inherent moral basis they are codes of acceptable conduct. I'm sure there is a code of ethic for engineers as well...1) First give Arb no Red Lights!...

See Also:

e·thos ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ths)
n.
The disposition, character, or fundamental values peculiar to a specific person, people, culture, or movement:

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » November 26, 2002, 11:15 pm

The cool thing about Jesus is after we join up with him. He gives us a charge of spirit. Like a nitro tank in the heart. After a while, a true Jesus junky doesn't desire to sin. I mean every now and then you sin, but for the part it isn't a part of your life.

Back to your question.

If I was a perfect person, but held on to one sin and refused to give it up, I can't be a christain.

True christains don't hold on to sin. The desire to act that way fades with time.

So yes, that person who held on to one sinful pattern can't be a christain, thus won't be in heaven upon death.

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Question 2.

Does God design us with flaws? Yep he does.

God designs prewired homosexuals, prewired liars, prewired cheaters, prewired theives, and prewired murderers.

God gives us weaknesses to that we'll lean on him and learn to trust him.

If we were all perfect, we wouldn't need God.

I mean if you buy into the whole God concept you have to consider the end game.

Life is kinda like God taking you on a camping trip.

During this time he wants you to learn about him.
During this tmie he wants you to lean on him for help with your prewired weaknesses.

Why did he design weakness into us?
Well, he loves to death and figures the trust built through your weakness is a great way build a relationship.

It blows me away that the Architect of the Universe would even bother to "prewire" in a chance to get to know us. I'm glad he does though.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » November 26, 2002, 11:21 pm

Krimson,

With God, all sin is the same. Either your perfect or your not.

All sin has equal weight.

Here's the rules according to God.

If you're perfect, (never sinned) you get the passport to Heaven.
If you're not perfect, you go to hell.

Well, that's a tough standard. That's why God created an avatar named Jesus and logged on to Earth.

With Jesus, God worked out a way that all of us non perfect types could still check in upstairs.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » November 26, 2002, 11:26 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote: Here's the rules according to God.

Ermmm...Are they adding the Book of Adex to the next revision of the Bible?...

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » November 26, 2002, 11:28 pm

Hehe,

That's what I get from prayer and from my reading of the Bible.

I'm simply giving a book report after reading the book, and getting to know the author personally.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » November 26, 2002, 11:30 pm

If you're perfect, (never sinned) you get the passport to Heaven.
If you're not perfect, you go to hell.

Well, that's a tough standard. That's why God created an avatar named Jesus and logged on to Earth.

Seeing as how god is omnipotent, couldn't he just change the rule and say you can go to heaven even if you're imperfect? Why is it necessary to create an exception to a rule that he himself created?

Logically, it is not necessary. However, if you are a self-loathing person, you need to have some sort of excuse for the flaws you see in yourself. Christianity is founded on this concept. It is basically an excuse for being human.

"My whole existence is flawed
You get me closer to God"

Midnyte_Ragebringer · November 26, 2002, 11:30 pm

Some very good points Adex.

Unfortunately...that whole thing about perfect or imperfect is wrong.

It's all bullshit.

You can murder someone, confess it, and you're sin will be forgiven and you get into heaven.

Problem with this is, there is no fucking such thing.

I am shocked at the amount of support this "God" thing has gotten over the last 2000 years.

I believe it has been able to last so long because of a lack of information and knowledge available to the masses.

The internet and global communication has nixed that problem. I believe as the decades go on, religion will lose it support more and more.

The churches have already been experiencing a harder and harder time recruiting new priests.

Time will tell, I guess.

[/quote]

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » November 26, 2002, 11:48 pm

I thought about this Xyun.

First of I'm "guessing" the mind of God so I could be totally off.

But, I think he designed a flawed universe so that we'd have an excuse to get to know him.

I don't know, maybe God was sitting around one day bored and dreamed up the universe. Inside that universe tucked away on some insignificant speck of dust he thought us up. I guess he wanted play with his creation some and designed the rules such that we'd have a reason to interact with him.

I'm still hung up on how cool it is that he bothered mess with us at all. I know that after I create some new device or invention I usually put it to task and move on to the next thing.

But yet God hangs around with us, and answers questions when asked etc.

He's an awesome thing.

Midnyte,

You're right man, I could be wrong.

I tell ya though, I know God's there, through and through, and I know he cares about me. I've personally witnessed him monkeying with my life for the better. And shoot, I could use all the help I can get.

noel · Post by **noel** » November 26, 2002, 11:55 pm

God is your imaginary friend. Until you can prove otherwise, he doesn't exist.

He exists for me, but not in the blind faith way he does for you. I don't suppose to know what he thinks, or what he has determined so I will do the best I can and get up every morning able to look myself in the mirror.

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » November 26, 2002, 11:55 pm

Here's my take on things. Do what makes you happy. Life's too short to spend it worrying about what may or may not be there in the "afterlife".

<--- is catholic

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » November 27, 2002, 12:10 am

Aranuil,

That's the great thing about God. I don't have to prove him to you. He has the uncanny habit to proving "himself" to you.

The proof of God is when out of no where, he hits you like a ton of bricks and you'll wake up saturated by him. He'll fill up all your empty spaces with the surge of his presence. Then and there, you'll know.

I tell you man, its like nothing else.

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » November 27, 2002, 12:19 am

Let me get this out first...I am a gay male...

Many of you know me, many of you don't...for those of you who do, surprise

...

Do I feel that god made a mistake with me? Absolutely not.
Do I feel that religion is what judges the way i should live my life? Absolutely not.
Do I feel guilty at the fact that I am attracted to other men? No, whose business is it but mine?

The simple fact of the matter is you cannot hide behind this shield of the almighty God and say that everyone who isnt like you is wrong and will go to hell.

My personal thoughts on religion are that its a deepening hole of bull crap...do i feel this way because I'm gay and all religions hate the way i live my life? No...i feel this way because time and time again, SCIENCE has proved religion wrong....Has science proved religion completely wrong? No, and infact, just as i am allowed to live my life the way i see fit, everyone is allowed to believe what they want...but science has proven religion wrong on several occassions, period...

Is being Gay something you "learn"? No, in my opinion I was born this way...if people have a problem with it, let them do something to me and they'll see what my lawyer has to say...and if my coming out in this post affects the way im treated in this game by the rest of you on Veeshan, then i might as well of not bought this game...

I'm not tring to be defensive with this post and I'm not using this post to "infect" you with my lifestyle...im just trying to give yall a point of view from someone who actually is a gay man or a gay woman or a bi man or a bi woman...

I'm still a person, I'm still the Fesuni that many of you know, the only thing that's changed is the fact that I've chosen a lifestyle that some of you disagree with...so what? It's my business what i do with my life, not yours...so to those of you who are going to treat me differently because of this...fuck you...

Now, back to the original question of this post...Should we be allowed to adopt children? I don't see the problem...if we allow 24 year old crack addicts and 40 year old pedafiles to have children and to adopt children, then why can't we let Gay people adopt children? We aren't any different from the rest of you...you think that if i adopt a son, that i'm going to force him to be gay? You obviously don't know anything about PEOPLE in general....just like not all heterosexuals are good people, not all homosexuals are bad people...

And in my opinion a homosexual lifestyle isn't much different than homosexual pedafilia....All those priests that have molested young boys in your "cherished" churches are showing an ATTRACTION to people of the SAME sex...i don't see you die hard conservatists calling them "fags" or "homos"....

In the end, what matters to me is not the type of lifestyle or choices a person makes, what matters to me is the person...if someone is a dickhead, i won't be friends with them...but if someone is gay or if someone is bi or if someone is straigt, it won't affect me...and it shouldn't affect anyone...

Have Fun Flaming me for who I am...I'm prepared to lose friends over this post, I don't care anymore...

noel · Post by **noel** » November 27, 2002, 12:25 am

Fes, you or anyone else for that matter being gay doesn't so much as raise my pulse. Gay men fucking rock. Less competition for all the hawt looking women.

Adex, you're not hearing me. I believe in God. I believe in the Christian God. I also believe in Jesus. I just don't share your interpretation.

Any believe that leans toward predestination, just infuriates me MY God would not put me in a situation where I was predestined to fail. He would instead put me in a situation where I had a choice that was entirely up to me and by making the right/good choice, I am closer to being the person he'd like me to be.

I refuse to follow the Bible word for word unless God, Jesus, or an angel/Archangel asks me to.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » November 27, 2002, 12:33 am

I don't know about anyone else but Fesuni I think no less of you knowing your gay.

I'd still invite you over for dominos if you lived nearby.

I accept who you are.

Do I agree with everything you do? nope.
Do you agree with everything I do? probably not.

You might butt up against hostility from people, but you have former OG friend here.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » November 27, 2002, 12:39 am

Aranuil,

I don't think God sets us up to fail.
He gives no test that we can't pass.

I'm sure my interpretation is imperfect in some way. I fix it as I learn more.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » November 27, 2002, 12:39 am

was going to post a well written reply because some of you are acting like stupid children. But it seems anytime someone posts to you, you just act even more childish...this thread has degenerated into retardation.

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » November 27, 2002, 12:39 am

Thank You Adex...regardless of where we disagree, means OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS to me that you can still call me your friend....

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » November 27, 2002, 12:43 am

See you later guys, I need to help my roommate fix the lawnmower.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » November 27, 2002, 12:50 am

Later Adex...

...Take care man...

Fesuni might actually make friends as well from that post...Takes a brave person to introject on something so deeply personal...I admire that...

Bok bok, I see a few childish posts but most of it seems to be thoughtful heartfelt arguement...I certainly have a lot of respect for all the folks and their opinions...Even those I disagree with...

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 27, 2002, 12:57 am

Regardless of religious differences, the most important thing is believing that some people can be good to others. Kindness and trust sometimes rub off, and that works for me more than any religion.

As for the poll, I say if 2 people can raise a child and give him/her the care and love that all kids need, then go for it

I just hope that the world can be more tolerant for that. Hell, it ain't my bag, but who am I to have any moral leverage over anyone else.

edit: And Fesuni, you are who you are and are happy with that

Anyone who would flame you for being gay is not someone you would want to be associated with anyway

kudos for you, sir!

Midnyte_Ragebringer · November 27, 2002, 1:07 am

Yo Fesuni.

You and I have had many conversations.

You have not lost a friend here either.

It's not you're fault your gay, just like it's not my fault I'm not

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » November 27, 2002, 1:10 am

your post makes no sense to me Midnyte heh...if you even really are the real midnyte....

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 27, 2002, 1:11 am

I think he meant you have *not* lost a friend

hehe

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » November 27, 2002, 1:13 am

/nod Adex.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · November 27, 2002, 1:17 am

It's me Gab.

I was being a jerk. It's what I know best.

Basically, your sexually preference means squat to me. I like who you are by our many many talks, phone and through EQ.

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » November 27, 2002, 1:30 am

Hehe

Hiya Mid, long time no see...im glad i can still call ya a friend as well

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » November 27, 2002, 1:54 am

ok first of all ...you all you people that arn't gay so u can't really understand being gay since ur not ... being gay is NOT LEARNED BEHAVIOR that is prolly one of the biggest misconceptions there is ...

Brittney · Post by **Brittney** » November 27, 2002, 2:08 am

So much h8... from everyone. I think Ooga laid it down best in his post. IMO it depends on what kind of person the potential adoptive parent is that determines if they would make a good parent, sexual preference should never even be a factor. If someone is a good person and they want to take care of and share their love with a child that someone is unable or unwilling to take care of then more power to them... It’s as simple as that.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » November 27, 2002, 2:26 am

Drasta,
Why should that matter? I have never understood why other gays fight so hard to convince straight people that being gay is predestined. Though for some, I have no doubt, the fact that they are gay was inevitable and beyond their control. For me,as I said earlier, and I am sure for many others, it is most definitely a choice.

For a while, the legal strategy taken by gay "rights" advocates was that being gay was not a choice. This was important, because in equal protection jurisprudence part of the test of a suspect class was that the charateristic in question was inherent and immutable. I think this formed the history of gay insistance that being gay was not a choice.

Here is my take. People who make the choice issue the center of their argument are giving up way to much ground. It is like you are accepting the straight man's vision of the devience (pejorative) and abnormal (pejorative) inherent in being gay. You are accepting that being gay is a crime against nature. You are then begging for acceptance because being gay was not your fault.

Fuck that. I am gay. My choice, none of your business. If you don't like it, feel free to fuck off.

I am not trying to tell anyone they did have a choice, I am just saying that whether they did or did not should not matter. Being gay is not something bad or weak that you need an excuss for.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 27, 2002, 2:30 am

Well said, Vowels

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » November 27, 2002, 3:00 am

Being gay has no bearing on the likelyhood of someone bein capable of providing a proper environment for a child to grow up in. The only criteria are time, patience, and caring. The Jesus Crispies first want to presume to tell us we can't use birth control, then we can't abort unwanted children, and now they want to limit who can adopt the surpluss of children their ludicrously impractical moral dogma has created. A child is far more likely to become homosexual in the hands of a priest these days anyhow. At least the gay couple have their cards on the table.

This has nothing to do with religion. This is about universal human morals that we as a free thinking society address from our own collective minds. We are the leaders of the free world and the most advanced society ever to exist on the planet, its time we acted like it and accept someting that the fucking romans knew thousands of years ago, but the Jesus toking hypocrites can't seem to rationalize: Some people are attracted to others of the same gender. This does not make them better or worse than any other human being in any capacity, including providing for a child.

Seperation of church and state people, yours is not the only dogma on the planet (not even the most widely worshiped) you arrogant pushy homophobes. Your the same morons who kept blacks and women from voting in this country. Open your minds and accept that not all people are the same.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » November 27, 2002, 9:13 am

Do you Read Virago? Go back and read Adex posts, well thought out. Your comment about us christians is unfounded and ignorant as most of your posts. Bringing history into this debate and saying it was anyone who is alive in the present who was at fault for the treatment of blacks or women is lame. Btw I believe only the catholic religion is against birth control. Too bad you were probably raised in a catholic household otherwise you could have ended up in a condom.

Being you by choice must be the worst punishment.

Cotto · Post by **Cotto** » November 27, 2002, 9:56 am

When did we bring religion into this? I thought this post about people who were already gay adopting a child. Cant remember it saying in the Bible or anything, "Thou shalt not adopt children should you be gay."

Maybe, just maybe we should leave that the hell alone okay? I got nothing against religious people, hell my Grandfather is as religious as they come, Im just saying, lets leave the Big Man and his Son outta this, kay?

The ONLY thing, the ONLY thing that should decide if people should be parents, is if they are GOOD PEOPLE. If they're gay, so what? If one of thems a budhist and ones a practicing wiccan, so what? So long as some child has a good upbringing, with people who care for them and give them an equal chance, Who They Are Should Not Matter!

Well this has been said throughout this post, Im no different.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » November 27, 2002, 10:45 am

Hold up a sec there chopsuey! While you may actually find that most of us despise pedophiles, we do not despise gay people. I use some extreme situations to make more vivid points. The fact is, it is not only homosexual couples that I would never let adopt. Drug users, alchoholics, people prone to violence, convicted felons, pedophiles, swingers, pornographers, Michael Jackson, etc, etc. Now God knows how much I like porn, but I would never ever let a chiled be adopted by someone that produces it openly. Hypocritical? Maybe. But even though I love porn, I do not believe a child should be raised in a household with the influences that would be there. It would social impact on the child that he or she never would have a say in. That is not right for a child.

The problem with most of what I listed above is that people are good at hiding things. Some could live dual lives forever and no one would ever know. The thing is though, if you are an openly gay couple, you can't hide that. It is not about the person, it is about the negative connotations that will always be viewed from the majority of people about the lifestyle you have.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » November 27, 2002, 11:07 am

it is about the negative connotations that will always be viewed from the majority of people about the lifestyle you have.

Yes, bigotry is a disapointing thing. I think you are wrong, however, that bigotry towards gays will always be in the majority. Even if you were right, however, that is no reason to punish the targets of that bigotry through official government sanction of it. It is the same reasoning - strike that, the same excuse - that kept prohibitions on interracial marrigaes on the books in many States for as long as they were.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » November 27, 2002, 11:57 am

Jice Virago wrote: The Jesus Crispies first want to presume to tell us we can't use birth control, then we can't abort unwanted children, and now they want to limit who can adopt the surpluss of children their ludicrously impractical moral dogma has created.

but the Jesus toking hypocrites can't seem to rationalize: Some people are attracted to others of the same gender.

you arrogant pushy homophobes.

Open your minds and accept that not all people are the same.

I am sure you can see the flaws in your "logic".

You spout off about your intolerance of Christians and their views call them hypocrites, then close with "Open your minds ..."

Perhaps you should edit these thoughts Jice since you have that option and make sure your closing agrees with the content. Otherwise you are irrelevant, no surprise here.

[/quote]

KilornCloudwalker · November 27, 2002, 12:38 pm

*sighs* I didn't wanna get in on this... First off, to the Christian crowd here. As Adelrune said, there are very few, if any religions that use the Old Testament as an example for living. The old testament was for a different time, hence why there is a NEW testament. No where in the new testament does it say being gay is a sin, or that it is wrong for 2 people who love eachother to raise a child, regardless of their gender. There are many lines one could use and twist to MEAN this, yes..but nothing cut and dried. Before you say to me that to cast off part of the Bible is wrong, again... I ask like everyone else, Do you follow all the rules in the Old testament in your daily life? Besides just Leviticus as well? The world has moved on.. even the Blue Laws in the South are largely gone now. For anyone who doesn't know what that is, during most of my years growing up and before then, only certain stores could be open on Sundays. In the Bible, you are not supposed to work on sundays, period. That means if you go out and mow the yard, etc, you are in violation of God's laws.

As for the issue at hand, who is to say of any of you that any child should be denied a loving home? Who cares if the parents are of the same gender or otherwise? Does love have a label or rulebook that I missed? Is heterosexual love stronger than homosexual love? If you say yes, then prove it. What is better or worse for a child? Having a 'stigma' that our society's fear put on them or having yet another chiuld in a broken home because his mother and father fight constantly? Neither is a good thing, but to many here, your answer is obvious. Our society is still struggling with many issues as it grows. 225 years is still a drop in the bucket compared to many European countries and I am glad for the freedoms that we have. As our society IS based largely on fundamental Christian beleifs, of course it views homosexuality as a bad thing and promotes that. What is feared is ridiculed and hated. This hasn't changed in ages, not will it anytime soon, I suspect. It saddens me that people have to live so closeminded... too much hate in this world as there is...

As an adopted child and an ex-Southern baptist... I'd have rathered had gay parents than none. As it is, I have a wonderful family that went through the process for me and I wouldn't change that for anything. But...and there is always a but... faced with a life alone in the foster system or a life on tyhe streets, never having a true family unit, I can look back and say I wouldn't have been ashamed to have had 2 dads or 2 moms that would have loved and cared for me. Because that is really what its all about, isn't it? Love, caring, nurturing?

ZZtheAssassin · Post by **ZZtheAssassin** » November 27, 2002, 12:42 pm

KilornCloudwalker wrote:*sighs* I didn't wanna get in on this... First off, to the Christian crowd here. As Adelrune said, there are very few, if any religions that use the Old Testament as an example for living. The old testament was for a different time, hence why there is a NEW testament. No where in the new testament does it say being gay is a sin, or that it is wrong for 2 people who love eachother to raise a child, regardless of their gender. There are many lines one could use and twist to MEAN this, yes..but nothing cut and dried. Before you say to me that to cast off part of the Bible is wrong, again... I ask like everyone else, Do you follow all the rules in the Old testament in your daily life? Besides just Leviticus as well? The world has moved on.. even the Blue Laws in the South are largely gone now. For anyone who doesn't know what that is, during most of my years growing up and before then, only certain stores could be open on Sundays. In the Bible, you are not supposed to work on sundays, period. That means if you go out and mow the yard, etc, you are in violation of God's laws.

As for the issue at hand, who is to say of any of you that any child should be denied a loving home? Who cares if the parents are of the same gender or otherwise? Does love have a label or rulebook that I missed? Is heterosexual love stronger than homosexual love? If you say yes, then prove it. What is better or worse for a child? Having a 'stigma' that our society's fear put on them or having yet another chiuld in a broken home because his mother and father fight constantly? Neither is a good thing, but to many here, your answer is obvious. Our society is still struggling with many issues as it grows. 225 years is still a drop in the bucket compared to many European countries and I am glad for the freedoms that we have. As our society IS based largely on fundamental Christian beleifs, of course it views homosexuality as a bad thing and promotes that. What is feared is ridiculed and hated. This hasn't changed in ages, not will it anytime soon, I suspect. It saddens me that people have to live so closeminded... too much hate in this world as there is...

As an adopted child and an ex-Southern baptist... I'd have rathered had gay parents than none. As it is, I have a wonderful family that went through the process for me and I wouldn't change that for anything. But...and there is always a but... faced with a life alone in the foster system or a life on tyhe streets, never having a true family unit, I can look back and say I wouldn't have been ashamed to have had 2 dads or 2 moms that would have loved and cared for me. Because that is really what its all about, isn't it? Love, caring, nurturing?

Ah, while it is true there is nothing wrong with being gay. As well I have no real problem with gay people, but sodomy( anal sex) is, as well as any other forms of intercourse between same gender partners. The preference itself is not a sin, acting on it is.
This is the point we were trying to make, gay people may make great parents, but they can't ever have children "naturally".

The reference to Sodom and Gomorra made a few posts ago was incorrect in the fact of why they, as well as, their town was destroyed. Sodomy is bad and it is against the law that some of us feel we should follow, others may agree or disagree, that is their choice to make.

This same rule of thumb applies to children, not everyone who died in that incident was an adult, their were children, and most of these people were destroyed because they were born witness to this act and became involved themselves. It's not so much the act itself, it's the fact children see things they shouldnt all the time and they are bound to "walk in" during the act of sodomy eventually.

Altho I will mention if you truly believe something such as a penis was meant to be inserted into an exit only, I encourage you to take any anatomy class you can get into. I am sure it will show you why sticking anything up the rectum is a bad idea. I mean since were now talking science is greater then everything in this case.

Edit: Just found this rather interesting link.....Known as "The Roper Report" its a summary on the how's why's what for's about sexual behavior( This is just an opinion but was a rather interesting read )
http://www.furry.org.au/badger/wlko/roper-06.htm
Here's a link that gives a rather odd but seeming possibility to why some enjoy sodomy
http://members.aol.com/step314/ideas/nosodom.htm
Another interesting link
http://www.hurricane.net/~wizard/19a.html

Btw anyone can commit sodomy, but those that do are more likely to be bi-sexual or gay.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · November 27, 2002, 1:16 pm

Ah, while it is true there is nothing wrong with being gay. As well I have no real problem with gay people, but sodomy( anal sex) is, as well as any other forms of intercourse. The preference itself is not a sin, acting on it is.

Here is the point. A sin to who???

Who says it is a sin? Some dumb book of fables that has been passed down over thousands of years?

/sigh, what foolishness some people live their lives by.

While the stories contained provide wonderful examples of morality and values. They are merely stories. Stories, to help mold people into decent human beings.

To use these stories as fact, and to believe their's a dude in the clouds watching your every move and will punish or reward you upon death just seems so naive.

ZZtheAssassin · Post by **ZZtheAssassin** » November 27, 2002, 1:21 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Ah, while it is true there is nothing wrong with being gay. As well I have no real problem with gay people, but sodomy( anal sex) is, as well as any other forms of intercourse. The preference itself is not a sin, acting on it is.
Here is the point. A sin to who???

Who says it is a sin? Some dumb book of fables that has been passed down over thousands of years?

/sigh, what foolishness some people live their lives by.

While the stories contained provide wonderful examples of morality and values. They are merely stories. Stories, to help mold people into decent human beings.

To use these stories as fact, and to believe their's a dude in the clouds watching your every move and will punish or reward you upon death just seems so naive.

Notice I also mentioned there a scientific evidence why sexual acts between same sex partner's is bad for you. It's also only a sin to those who believe in god and what is written. If you dont believe or care, thats fine, but see I also said their is plenty of scientific evidence against it.

KilornCloudwalker · Post by **KilornCloudwalker** » November 27, 2002, 1:23 pm

ZZtheAssassin wrote: Ah, while it is true there is nothing wrong with being gay. As well I have no real problem with gay people, but sodomy( anal sex) is, as well as any other forms of intercourse between same gender partners. The preference itself is not a sin, acting on it is.
This is the point we were trying to make, gay people may make great parents, but they can't ever have children "naturally".

The reference to Sodom and Gomorra made a few posts ago was incorrect in the fact of why they, as well as, their town was destroyed. Sodomy is bad and it is against the law that some of us feel we should follow, others may agree or disagree, that is their choice to make.

This same rule of thumb applies to children, not everyone who died in that incident was an adult, their were children, and most of these people were destroyed because they were born witness to this act and became involved themselves. It's not so much the act itself, it's the fact children see things they shouldnt all the time and they are bound to "walk in" during the act of sodomy eventually.

Altho I will mention if you truly believe something such as a penis was meant to be inserted into an exit only, I encourage you to take any anatomy class you can get into. I am sure it will show you why sticking anything up the rectum is a bad idea. I mean since were now talking science is greater then everything in this case.

Edit: Just found this rather interesting link.....Known as "The Roper Report" its a summary on the how's why's what for's about sexual behavior( This is just an opinion but was a rather interesting read )
http://www.furry.org.au/badger/wlko/roper-06.htm
Here's a link that gives a rather odd but seeming possibility to why some enjoy sodomy
http://members.aol.com/step314/ideas/nosodom.htm
Another interesting link
http://www.hurricane.net/~wizard/19a.html

Btw anyone can commit sodomy, but those that do are more likely to be bi-sexual or gay.

Again..I tried to make a concise and clear post, which you completely ignored on your new compaign against sodomy? Alright, I am gonna have to change gears. I am sorry your girlfriend/wife/lover will not allow you to screw her in an uncomfortable place, but if having anal sex with a woman is gonna send me to hell on its own. See you guys there!

I would have to assume you, ZZ, have never partaken in anal or oral sex? These are BOTH deviant and different from the missionary style procreative sex that seems to be all God allows... I have a very hard time thinking that God, in his infinite wisdom, would wish a couple, whatever preference they may be, to be pigeonholed in their sexual expressions together. Bullshit...

I hope you can enjoy your life of plain, vanilla sex, my friend. I'm gonna have to take the express elevator to your God's hell on this one...

In all my years going to church..never once was it ever said or inferred that what a consenting couple do in their bedroom alone in an expression of love and passion is a sin in any form.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » November 27, 2002, 1:32 pm

Kilorn you are arguing religion with somebody who was saying that "christianity and catholicisma do have OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS in common".

now there are probably some snake kissing half-breed no-dancing hayseeds who rattle the walls of their church about how the portal to hell itself rests in Vatican City, but come on....

spoiler: what christianity and catholicism have in common is that the only form of Western Christianity for 75% of Christianity's existence was Catholicism! jiminy fucking christmas on a goddamned popsicle stick. oh yah it is still probably by far the largest christian denomination on the planet. but other than that i guess Catholicism and Christianity have a lot in common. WTF?!?

make at least a modest effort to form coherent thoughts people.

VeeshanVault

This touched a bit of a nerve. Gay adoption??

Should a homosexual couple be able to adopt children??