Return of the King [SPOILERS]

Truant · Post by **Truant** » December 21, 2003, 5:41 pm

Don't cry Xzion, it's not my fault you were born the stupidest mother fucker I have ever witnessed living on this planet.

noel · Post by **noel** » December 21, 2003, 6:46 pm

Truant wrote:Don't cry Xzion, it's not my fault you were born the stupidest mother fucker I have ever witnessed living on this planet.

He's for sure top 10.

Drolgin Steingrinder · December 21, 2003, 7:46 pm

So I saw it. And I wasn't wowed...for about 90 minutes.

The beginning didn't catch me at all, I don't know what it was. It wasn't until the first major battle scene when I went "Oh My Fucking God...Peter Jackson, let me have your baby".

Possibly due to the editing, but I think this was the worst of the 3 movies for character development (with a few exceptions - Pippin mostly). I can only hope that this will be "fixed" in the extended edition.

Major gripes:

Denethor. I don't know why PJ hates this guy so much - he's not *that* big an asshole in the book, or rather, you understand his reasons for being an asshole a lot better. And he doesn't dismiss Pippin as just a comical figure, either. In ROTK he (Denethor) seems to be your archetypical second tier villain, a sort of elevated Wormtongue (hell, even the costume design is similar).

I guess that's what I miss the most, really: watching Pippin and Merry grow (and finally, fully come in to their own in the coda where the Shire is retaken).

And pet peeve: ELVES DO NOT HAVE A FUCKING THREE O CLOCK SHADOW. I'M SORRY IF THAT'S TOO MUCH TO HANDLE FOR YOUR MAKEUP CREW.

Argh.

noel · Post by **noel** » December 21, 2003, 8:00 pm

LOL

the dwarf.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 21, 2003, 8:08 pm

Drolgin Steingrinder wrote:And pet peeve: ELVES DO NOT HAVE A FUCKING THREE O CLOCK SHADOW. I'M SORRY IF THAT'S TOO MUCH TO HANDLE FOR YOUR MAKEUP CREW.

Argh.

elves can grow beards.

noel · Post by **noel** » December 21, 2003, 8:08 pm

Not Tolkein's elves...

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » December 21, 2003, 10:01 pm

Aranuil wrote:I thought my description was pretty fucking good. Apparently you just want to argue, OR perhaps... you're just too stupid to get it.

Noone brought up that middle earth was just a continent until AFTER my second post, hence i continued to argue

and when the elves were leaving middle earth they could have been referring to another part of middle earth or an island of the coast being that it was a big ass landmass on the map

of course the only defense you have to an honest misunderstanding is to call someone a "stupid mother fucker" and not even to there face

shit, someone must have had a lot of lunch money stolen in there past if they have to try to proove themselfs to be a hardass on a message board read by at most a couple hundred people, but if thats enough to make your ego grow a little bit, go for it

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » December 21, 2003, 10:10 pm

I feel sorry for your parents.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » December 21, 2003, 11:37 pm

I just hope that the retaking of the Shire is in the extended version. I was really looking forward to that.

Did anyone else think of Luke Skywalker taking out an Imperial Walker in Empire Strikes Back when Legolas did his thing with the elephant?

I too thought that Frodo was going to get into a liplock with Sam at the end there. I also thought that Frodo ended up leaving later due to his continual nightmares and such and left Bagend to Sam and his family. It's been a while since I read the books.

Now I'd like to see PJ do the Dragonlance novels.

Sartori · Post by **Sartori** » December 22, 2003, 12:04 am

Xzion wrote: shit, someone must have had a lot of lunch money stolen in there past if they have to try to proove themselfs to be a hardass on a message board read by at most a couple hundred people, but if thats enough to make your ego grow a little bit, go for it

Like you never see this kind of shit anywhere on these boards? This is Veeshanvault, and what you are commenting on is par for the course when you participate. You should know this with the amount of posts you've made.

P.S.
You make Al Sharpton look good

noel · Post by **noel** » December 22, 2003, 12:47 am

Bubba Grizz wrote:I just hope that the retaking of the Shire is in the extended version. I was really looking forward to that.

Was not filmed.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » December 22, 2003, 2:17 am

Aranuil wrote:
Bubba Grizz wrote:I just hope that the retaking of the Shire is in the extended version. I was really looking forward to that.
Was not filmed.

I remember reading that it was filmed, and then taken out late into post production. It was an article about how Christopher Lee was pissed because he was edited out of the film entirely when he expected to have a decent part (time wise) in the final movie.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » December 22, 2003, 2:24 am

Nay, PJ didn't film The Scouring, because he hated that part of the book. Saruman was actually supposed to die at the end of the second movie, but he thought it would be better to begin the third movie with that idea. It was reported, but I forgot who actually kills Saruman (maybe Wormtongue?). The death of Saruman will be in the EE.

noel · Post by **noel** » December 22, 2003, 3:00 am

1. The closest thing to the filming of the 'Scouring of the Shire' was Galadriel's mirror in FotR. I'm positive, but feel free to research it.

2. Saruman is NOT killed in the book, and shouldn't be in the movie. He was basically left to wander the earth.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » December 22, 2003, 3:56 am

Saruman is killed by Wormtongue in the book. He stabs him after the Hobbits retake The Shire.

Edit: Wormtongue cut Saruman's throat, he didn't stab him.

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » December 22, 2003, 3:58 am

Saruman WAS killed in the book. Wormtongue cut his throat when Saruman mocked him once too often after the hobbits ran the men out of the shire upon their return.

*Hugs*
Varia

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » December 22, 2003, 4:10 am

Aranuil wrote:1. The closest thing to the filming of the 'Scouring of the Shire' was Galadriel's mirror in FotR. I'm positive, but feel free to research it.

Will do.

Burke · Post by **Burke** » December 22, 2003, 12:44 pm

When Aruman and Arwen are face to face near the end, right before they kissed, I whispered to my wife "Hail to the King, baby".

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » December 22, 2003, 1:12 pm

Legenae · Post by **Legenae** » December 22, 2003, 1:16 pm

Burke wrote:When Aruman and Arwen are face to face near the end, right before they kissed, I whispered to my wife "Hail to the King, baby".

You mean Aragorn?

Burke · Post by **Burke** » December 22, 2003, 3:21 pm

Yes, sorry Aragorn. On too much medication at the moment.

why?

During that scene I had a flash of Army of Darkness, hence the line.

Salis · Post by **Salis** » December 22, 2003, 3:51 pm

Finally got to see it, and I think it was spectacular. I'm glad they did (more than) justice to the finale of Ride of the Rohirrim, it's my favourite part of the book and in the movie the image of all those riders is just inspiring! I also thought the chanting orc army was stunning. And Grond making an appearance! And Minas Morgul. I could go on for a while

Only part I did kind of miss was the part where Aragorn unfurls Arwens banner from the Corsair fleet, and using the halls of the dead as the tie in. Knights of Dol Amroth didn't get to make an appearance I guess!

Truant · Post by **Truant** » December 22, 2003, 5:13 pm

Xzion wrote:Noone brought up that middle earth was just a continent until AFTER my second post, hence i continued to argue

Because you were the only person who seemed not to understand/have a problem with this. Noone else was complaining about racial diversity or posing a question on the geography of the series.

Xzion wrote:of course the only defense you have to an honest misunderstanding is to call someone a "stupid mother fucker" and not even to there face

This was hardly an honest misunderstanding. And I definately didn't call you a stupid mother fucker behind your back. I called you a stupid mother fucker to your face, and I'll do it as long as you continue to be a stupid mother fucker. I hope you can understand that, though it would be breaking a streak.

Xzion wrote:shit, someone must have had a lot of lunch money stolen in there past if they have to try to proove themselfs to be a hardass on a message board read by at most a couple hundred people, but if thats enough to make your ego grow a little bit, go for it

1. No, never any lunch money stolen.
2. I'm not trying to prove myself to be a hardass.
3. This has nothing to do with my ego.
4. This has to do with you making stupid statements on a galactic scale, repeatedly. And my trying to make you understand that...against all hope.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » December 23, 2003, 10:20 am

Notice in my original post i said i had a few MINOR rants..and that was listed among other things, of course some people blew it out of porportion so i defended my argument until someone finally gave there version of an explenation for it...if questioning racial diveristy in a fantasy movie (even if just among a few extras) is a stupid statement on a galactic scale...

Siji · Post by **Siji** » December 23, 2003, 3:40 pm

Zamtuk wrote:Nay, PJ didn't film The Scouring, because he hated that part of the book.

He did a great job on the movies, but to me, that's completely the wrong reason not to film something. It's not like it was his original idea that he was filming. That was probably one of my favorite parts of the story. It showed how much the hobbits had changed and grown. Understanding how simple of a life the hobbits in general lead, that was a very big deal. True, not all that important in the whole scheme of things, but it would have been VERY nice to see it done. Would have rather of seen that filmed than the battle with Aragorn falling over the cliff and being tongued in some horse lovin'.

Burke · Post by **Burke** » December 23, 2003, 4:03 pm

In one of his interviews, Pete said something about omitting the Scouring of the Shire because it was anticlimactic. He said he wanted to focus on the story of the Ring and the scouring has nothing to do with it.

Although I would have loved to see the battle-hardened hobbits come home and kick a little ass.

Deneve · Post by **Deneve** » December 23, 2003, 4:58 pm

Salis wrote:I also thought the chanting orc army was stunning. And Grond making an appearance! And Minas Morgul.

Grond was fairly kickass, though i was hoping to see Murazor and Sauron get some more screen time, with the civil liberties they took i was almost hoping for Sauron to show up at the gate and fight with a reforged version of "<a href="http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/h/hammerof ... tml">Grond, Hammer of the Underworld</a>" but on the other hand i think they did a total kickass job on Minas Morgul though that makes up for it, but cut Murazor too short....and Eowyn was supposed to be almost dead after killing him.

noel · Post by **noel** » December 23, 2003, 5:39 pm

Deneve wrote:
Salis wrote:I also thought the chanting orc army was stunning. And Grond making an appearance! And Minas Morgul.
Grond was fairly kickass, though i was hoping to see Murazor and Sauron get some more screen time, with the civil liberties they took i was almost hoping for Sauron to show up at the gate and fight with a reforged version of "<a href="http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/h/hammerof ... tml">Grond, Hammer of the Underworld</a>" but on the other hand i think they did a total kickass job on Minas Morgul though that makes up for it, but cut Murazor too short....and Eowyn was supposed to be almost dead after killing him.

I think she was, and we'll see that in the EE. Notice that after she kills the WitchKing, you don't see her again until Aragorn's coronation/wedding etc. Just a guess on my part.

Basing that guess around the scene with Eomer crying in the preview that didn't make it into the movie.

Deneve · Post by **Deneve** » December 24, 2003, 1:32 am

all i notcied was that she stabbed him she let her right arm go limp, but then she went and coddled her dad's head with the same arm 30sec left...

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » December 24, 2003, 12:49 pm

I think she was, and we'll see that in the EE. Notice that after she kills the WitchKing, you don't see her again until Aragorn's coronation/wedding etc. Just a guess on my part.

Not entirely correct, you see her talking to her father when he tells her she has already saved him.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » December 24, 2003, 2:04 pm

Her Uncle...

Theodred was Theoden's only child...He died in TTT to wounds received from Sarumans Orcs

Eomer and Eowyn are his nephew and niece...Their father Eomund died fighting Sauron's Orcs in Emyn Muil

Eowyn dropped like a rock when she tried to kill the Lord of the Nazgul pretty much...Gratz Merry with the blade of Westernesse in the back of the kneecap for the KS...Wasn't a man or a woman...Was an assling!

Eomer see Theoden dead arranges for him to be carried off by his knights, then sees Eowyn dead (he thinks) totally loses it and leads the Rohirrim on such a furious charge through the Mumakil, Southrons Easterlings etc they they end up surrounded

Then Imrahil (Prince of Dol Amroth) rides up to the Rohirrim bearing Theoden and Eowyn's "Corpses" and notices that Eowyn is breathing...

Merry on the other hand walks into Minas Tirith...(another nod to halfings' resistance to teh evil magic)...

Good thing Tolkien did family trees...someone might well have married their own sister if he hadn't...

...Imrahil it turns out...is Denethor's wife's brother...IE Boromir and Faramir's Uncle...And of course Theoden's sister is Eomund's wife...ermmm...If all men were brothers...would you let one marry your sister?...

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » December 24, 2003, 11:27 pm

Can't believe I said father.. I knew that. God damn I have to sit in the corner ashamed for a few days now.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 25, 2003, 7:14 am

Great movie, great trilogy,

Not explaining that the reason why Denethor was such a fucking idiot was because he was essentially under the control of Sauron via a palantir was pretty disappointing.

Agreed. This was the single most confusing part of the movie to non readers of the book. Out of the blue, Denethor is big time asshole. It's totally unexplained why this guy hates his son so much and even more boggling as to why he sends him out on a suicide charge against the orcs.

The first 45 minutes, as mentioned by Drolgin, were a snoozer. The movie turned itself around with the first battle scene.

3:20 minutes is 20 minutes too long for any movie in the theater. 20 minutes could have EASILY been chopped off of the scenes where Samwise is crying. The final 20 minutes was like a curtain call for the actors starting with the bed scene. These are minor gripes but i was getting sick of the drama between Samwise and frodo at the end (after the ring was destroyed) It was damn close to being on the level of "die already!" in the English patient. I also thought Pippen giving that ugly halfling the eye after catching the thrown flowers at sam's wedding was beyond cheesy.

PJ should have shown some running water in the last few minutes of the movie to further frustrate those needing to pee after 200 minutes of sitting through the movie.

The battle scenes rocked.

Gandalf rarely used magic in the movie...perhaps only once. I really liked the scene where Gandalf rides out to distract the flying beasts as the army was retreating...very powerful.

Gandalf kicked some ass in melee. Unlike William Wallace, he probably really could shoot bolts of lightning from his ass yet didn't.

ROTK is a legit candidate for best picture. Cruise may get best actor (he's due and there will probably be some lobbying for him). Last Samurai wasn't that good...really, it wasn't. The battle scenes in Last Samurai were lacking compared to any other major historical picture of recent note and on top of that, the development of Cruises character with the samurai village wasn't enough for me. Last Samurai wasn't bad but very overrated imo.

While the Matrix trilogy started out great and got progressively worse, LOTR started strong and then each movie was better than the previous one.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » December 26, 2003, 9:57 am

Arborealus wrote:Eowyn dropped like a rock when she tried to kill the Lord of the Nazgul pretty much...Gratz Merry with the blade of Westernesse in the back of the kneecap for the KS...Wasn't a man or a woman...Was an assling!

Merry stabbed him first, as you said in the back of the knee. Eowyn then "drove her swordbetween crown and mantle" for the kill.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » December 26, 2003, 3:44 pm

Hrmmm but when Merry is looking for his blade Tolkien says..."So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse....No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."...I always took this to imply that it literally tore his will from his sinews (ie killed him) while Eowyn's stroke just destroyed the body... the paragraphs seen to contradict each other in fact...

I agree it seems that Eowyn did strike something since her sword breaks "sparkling into a shower of shards" hrmmm...and that bit about the shrill wailing passing on the wind...As she is driving her sword up LotN's shoulders are already "bowing before her" and when she falls forward Tolkien says "But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty." Both of those seem to imply that LotN was already dying/dead when her blow landed though the second one is more equivocal as she has already struck her blow

Have to read more here, "letters" and the silmarillion to see if he ever confirms which was fatal...but Tolkien was usually very literal "No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter" tends to mean just that...

Salis · Post by **Salis** » December 27, 2003, 1:21 am

I always read it that Merry killed him. The Northern part of Numenor was iirc brought down by the Witchking and the blade was obviously a remnant of those battles and times.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » December 27, 2003, 3:44 am

Winnow wrote:It was damn close to being on the level of "die already!" in the English patient.

Or Matrix 3.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » December 27, 2003, 4:04 am

Winnow wrote:Cruise may get best actor (he's due and there will probably be some lobbying for him).

If Bill Murray doesn't get best actor for Lost in Translation, there is no god and everyone at the academy should fucking die of leprecy.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 27, 2003, 4:31 am

Zamtuk wrote:
Winnow wrote:Cruise may get best actor (he's due and there will probably be some lobbying for him).
If Bill Murray doesn't get best actor for Lost in Translation, there is no god and everyone at the academy should fucking die of leprecy.

There is no god and the academy awards are a scam. Samurai isnt worth an oscar but Cruise is due.

I liked Bill Murray's performence in Razor's Edge. I'll check out his new movie.

noel · Post by **noel** » December 27, 2003, 1:21 pm

The academy is definitely a scam, and I see where Cruise is due (he was robbed for Jerry Macguire IMHO), but he just really wasn't that good in The Last Samurai, and I'll be very disappointed if they choose to award him for it. As I've said before, Russel Crowe was far better in Master and Commander, and I've heard that Murray's performance in Lost in Translation is his best ever.

Any word on whether or not Ken Watanabe will get the nod for best supporting actor? If he's nominated, I think any hope of an actor in RotK getting the award is dashed.

Shashonna · Post by **Shashonna** » December 27, 2003, 10:00 pm

Took me this long but no one was sick so I finally got to see it

Was Excellent.....still loving Two Towers hehe but RoTK was just wonderful. And I dont care what anyone says the Legolas/elephant scene was by far my fave....save his ride down the stairs in TT hehe

Deneve · Post by **Deneve** » December 28, 2003, 2:48 am

look around here for some LOTR info/fun: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
just about everything can be found there, from the age of the trees to the fourth age...enjoi...

Post by **Xouqoa** » December 30, 2003, 4:32 pm

Just saw it yesterday, and loved it. Wonderful stuff.

My dad was wondering why Frodo had to leave at the end, and I don't remember why really. Can anyone explain?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 30, 2003, 4:38 pm

Xouqoa wrote:Just saw it yesterday, and loved it. Wonderful stuff.

My dad was wondering why Frodo had to leave at the end, and I don't remember why really. Can anyone explain?

I think it has something to do with his wound that never healed but that's just a guess until a Tolkien Scholar responds.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » December 30, 2003, 4:57 pm

He didn't have to leave, he chose to.

Drolgin Steingrinder · December 30, 2003, 6:05 pm

By carrying the ring, his destiny (for lack of a better word) would be forever changed, tied to the elves and their age - an age that ended with Sauron's defeat.

So like Gandalf, Elrond and the rest whose time was over, Frodo took the ships into the West.

He chose to leave, but it was not much of a choice for him. His heart and most of his being had already gone.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » December 30, 2003, 9:56 pm

Yerp to go was his choice...By virtue of Arwen (who granted him her "grace")...One also presumes that he would have been able to go by virtue of having been a ringbearer as well...

Essentially view the undying lands as "heaven" a place of healing, rest and eternal joy...His exposure to the ring so wounded himl that he would never find true peace short of the undying lands...

Sam followed to Valinor 61 years (Shire Years) later...Year 61 of the 4th Age...

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » December 31, 2003, 4:03 pm

Bah. So he can't find piece. Give him a sword and send him out to kill orcs. I am still miffed that they excluded Tom Bombidil from the story.

Deneve · Post by **Deneve** » January 2, 2004, 4:19 am

Bubba Grizz wrote:I am still miffed that they excluded Tom Bombidil from the story.

yeah, wtf was up with that...

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » January 2, 2004, 7:56 am

Fuck Tom Bombadil. He was a boring gimp and a waste of pages