U.S. Troops Shoot Dead Reuters Cameraman in Iraq

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 22, 2003, 9:31 am

Kelshara wrote:Yay the Kyoukan Stalker Brigade strikes again!

What are you Kyoukans human shield or her emotional tampon?

Or just another cluless dildo deepthroating retard?

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 22, 2003, 9:41 am

All offtopic 2 1 line paragraph posts should be --VVs.

Are you ever gonna contribute anything above junior high level Cart?

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 22, 2003, 9:43 am

No he wont, that would require him actually ever getting OUT of Junior High..

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 22, 2003, 9:50 am

Forthe wrote:All offtopic 2 1 line paragraph posts should be --VVs.

Are you ever gonna contribute anything above junior high level Cart?

Hiroshima!!!!! Ring a bell dumb ass?

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 22, 2003, 10:02 am

Cartalas wrote:
Forthe wrote:All offtopic 2 1 line paragraph posts should be --VVs.

Are you ever gonna contribute anything above junior high level Cart?

Hiroshima!!!!! Ring a bell dumb ass?

That one word said a lot. It also could have entended the discussion to when is terrorism a justified tactic. It added something.

You just don't get it.

You pick a 1 word post from another thread even when my post was set to the format I was complaining about.

PS> OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 22, 2003, 10:15 am

Forthe wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Forthe wrote:All offtopic 2 1 line paragraph posts should be --VVs.

Are you ever gonna contribute anything above junior high level Cart?

Hiroshima!!!!! Ring a bell dumb ass?
That one word said a lot. It also could have entended the discussion to when is terrorism a justified tactic. It added something.

You just don't get it.

You pick a 1 word post from another thread even when my post was set to the format I was complaining about.

PS> OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS

Oh yeah I forgot Hiroshima as you posted was a act of terrorism right?

Im sorry Captain Cluless your right that one word did say a lot.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 22, 2003, 10:59 am

Cartalas wrote:
Forthe wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Forthe wrote:All offtopic 2 1 line paragraph posts should be --VVs.

Are you ever gonna contribute anything above junior high level Cart?

Hiroshima!!!!! Ring a bell dumb ass?
That one word said a lot. It also could have entended the discussion to when is terrorism a justified tactic. It added something.

You just don't get it.

You pick a 1 word post from another thread even when my post was set to the format I was complaining about.

PS> OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS

Oh yeah I forgot Hiroshima as you posted was a act of terrorism right?

Im sorry Captain Cluless your right that one word did say a lot.

According to Fallanthas' black and white definition of terrorism yes it was. Which is what we were discussing. Not surprised you were not able to keep up with that.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 22, 2003, 11:03 am

Forthe wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Forthe wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Forthe wrote:All offtopic 2 1 line paragraph posts should be --VVs.

Are you ever gonna contribute anything above junior high level Cart?

Hiroshima!!!!! Ring a bell dumb ass?
That one word said a lot. It also could have entended the discussion to when is terrorism a justified tactic. It added something.

You just don't get it.

You pick a 1 word post from another thread even when my post was set to the format I was complaining about.

PS> OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS

Oh yeah I forgot Hiroshima as you posted was a act of terrorism right?

Im sorry Captain Cluless your right that one word did say a lot.
According to Fallanthas' black and white definition of terrorism yes it was. Which is what we were discussing. Not surprised you were not able to keep up with that.

Wrong again congrats on you promotion to General Clueless wanna try for some stars with that hell maybe one day you will make Commander in Chief Clueless.

I was able to follow just fine and the example had one major flaw, Japan declared war on the U.S first.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 22, 2003, 11:12 am

Cartalas wrote:
Forthe wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Forthe wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Hiroshima!!!!! Ring a bell dumb ass?
That one word said a lot. It also could have entended the discussion to when is terrorism a justified tactic. It added something.

You just don't get it.

You pick a 1 word post from another thread even when my post was set to the format I was complaining about.

PS> OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS

Oh yeah I forgot Hiroshima as you posted was a act of terrorism right?

Im sorry Captain Cluless your right that one word did say a lot.
According to Fallanthas' black and white definition of terrorism yes it was. Which is what we were discussing. Not surprised you were not able to keep up with that.
Wrong again congrats on you promotion to General Cluless wanna try for some stars with that hell maybe one day you will make Commander in Chief Cluless.

I was able to follow just fine and the example had one major flaw, Japan declared war on the U.S first.

huh? How does that change anything? Who declared war first has no more bearing than what the weather outside was like last thursday.

Go back to the other thread and read it. Take your meds so you can pay attention longer than 30 secs.

Dumbfuck.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 22, 2003, 11:20 am

Krimson Klaw wrote:I dunno, the daily punching of the keyboard joke with fat fingers and use of caps is like a rubix cube to me, I just can't beat that one two combo of mental midgetry.

This is now degrading into a boring old flame war thread, I liked it better when we were somewhat on topic and you were being proven wrong. Are we done with that part, or do you continue with the mindless slobbering? Nevermind, I just figured out your pattern, you always degenerate into mindless flaming when you start to lose an argument. I guess we carry on business as usual then.

I dunno either. It seems I asked a question that you didn't answer though.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » August 22, 2003, 11:48 am

Just like I said, you lose, so you start your stupid comments when you cannot win a debate with facts. You are tired, and your debating skills as of late are overrated. I kind of remember you accusing that racist piece of trash cartalas of doing the same thing a few times. You are starting to emulate him.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » August 22, 2003, 12:04 pm

Cart,

Forthe is right, Hiroshima does fit the classic definition of terrorism. If you were following the other thread you would have seen my one-word answer to his one-word post.

It doesn't mean what happened at Hiroshima was the wrong thing to do.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 22, 2003, 5:13 pm

So you support terrorist actions on civilian targets?

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » August 25, 2003, 1:06 pm

In the circumstances faced at the time the US bombed Hiroshima?

Damn right.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » August 25, 2003, 1:16 pm

The US had more concrete military goals than "Infidels Leave teh Holy Land" tied into the A-bombing of Japan. There is a vast difference in the motivation and reasoning between that and driving a truck-bomb into a mall food court.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 25, 2003, 1:51 pm

Actually the ultimate goal can be said to be the same:

Americans wanted to defeat Japan and keep them out of their business.

Extreme mulsims want to defeat USA and keep them out of their business.

Yeah put a bit to the extreme, but nonetheless true.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » August 25, 2003, 2:30 pm

The United States was trying to end a war.

I don't think these extremists have any interest in ending anything.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » August 25, 2003, 3:30 pm

kyoukan wrote:So you support terrorist actions on civilian targets?

After the atrocities committed by the Japanese up to that point, yes. They refused to adhere to the Geneva Convention and were absolutely brutal to the people whose land they invaded. They made a sneak attack on a country who was not actively involved in fighting the war. They killed civilians and soldiers with no regard.

With the Japanese's code that basically made them unable to surrender, nuking the country saved a hell of a lot more lives of both Japanese and Americans.

Post by **Sylvus** » August 25, 2003, 4:00 pm

As an aside, does anyone know the approximate number of people killed by the atomic bombs dropped in Japan?

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » August 25, 2003, 4:11 pm

Lots of argument over that number Sylvus. Directly, most seem to settle on 150,000 dead in the two cities. It gets sticky if you try to account for the number lost to radiation poisoning.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 25, 2003, 4:21 pm

Initially 140,000 in Hiroshima and 70,000 (possibly inaccurate as no data exists) in Nagasaki. Impossible to say how many all told if you include problems from fallout, radiation sickness, leukemia and the usual things to expect after a nuclear bomb (hunger, thirst, no infrastructure).

It still makes me feel ill to see american apologists justify it. It's nice to see that most of the people who were involved in the disaster have since capitulated and admitted their actions in the atrocity, but I guess the armchair chickenhawks never will. I blame it on guilt.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » August 25, 2003, 4:31 pm

What do you mean by justify? Are you saying America was wrong for dropping the a-bombs? Or am I mistaken?

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » August 25, 2003, 5:07 pm

The numbers I had were 78,000 and 72,000 dead immediately. I can't imagine what would be involved in getting an accurate number under such circumstances.

As for apologizing, I will apologize to mankind for what happened, but no way would I recant it. An atrocious act committed to put an end to atrocious acts. I'm pretty sure facing the same choice would have driven me insane.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 25, 2003, 5:15 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
kyoukan wrote:So you support terrorist actions on civilian targets?
After the atrocities committed by the Japanese up to that point, yes. They refused to adhere to the Geneva Convention and were absolutely brutal to the people whose land they invaded. They made a sneak attack on a country who was not actively involved in fighting the war. They killed civilians and soldiers with no regard.

With the Japanese's code that basically made them unable to surrender, nuking the country saved a hell of a lot more lives of both Japanese and Americans.

I've seen this stated so many times.

Japan had talks with Russia ("peace feelers") hoping Russia would mediate an end of hostilities with the allies. The US was aware of them.

Sec. of the Navy James Forrestal
was first informed of the peace feelers on 7/13/45. On that day he
entered in his diary, "The first real evidence of a Japanese desire to
get out of the war came today through intercepted messages from Togo,
Foreign Minister, to Sato, Jap Ambassador in Moscow, instructing the
latter to see Molotov [the Soviet Foreign Minister] if possible before
his departure for the Big Three meeting [the Potsdam Conference], and if
not then, immediately afterward, to lay before him the Emperor's strong
desire to secure a termination of the war." ("The Forrestal Diaries",
ed. by Walter Millis, pg. 74.).

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 25, 2003, 5:21 pm

Forthe wrote:I've seen this stated so many times.

Japan had talks with Russia ("peace feelers") hoping Russia would mediate an end of hostilities with the allies. The US was aware of them.

actually russia had declared war on Japan a couple days before the bombs were dropped.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » August 25, 2003, 5:22 pm

But when we were in Peace Talks with Japan, they attacked Pearl Harbor, maybe the U.S. just didnt trust Japan

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » August 25, 2003, 5:49 pm

Sionistic wrote:But when we were in Peace Talks with Japan, they attacked Pearl Harbor, maybe the U.S. just didnt trust Japan

Who was having peace talks with Japan at this point?

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » August 25, 2003, 6:01 pm

Read this:

http://www.ncesa.org/html/hiroshima.html

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 25, 2003, 6:08 pm

kyoukan wrote:
Forthe wrote:I've seen this stated so many times.

Japan had talks with Russia ("peace feelers") hoping Russia would mediate an end of hostilities with the allies. The US was aware of them.
actually russia had declared war on Japan a couple days before the bombs were dropped.

Russia declared war on Japan (Aug. 8 ) 2 days after Hiroshima (Aug. 6), a day before Nagasaki (aug. 9).

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » August 25, 2003, 7:00 pm

Maybe peace talks was the wrong phrase for that, I meant during the begining of WW2 the US was trying to get in good standing with Japan, Japan, knowing they were going to attack us played along. They lied in our face, thus the US had reason not to beleive Japan

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 25, 2003, 7:12 pm

Sionistic wrote:Maybe peace talks was the wrong phrase for that, I meant during the begining of WW2 the US was trying to get in good standing with Japan, Japan, knowing they were going to attack us played along. They lied in our face, thus the US had reason not to beleive Japan

26th Sep 1940 : America imposes a trade embargo on Japan.
26th Jul 1941 : America freezes all Japanese assets in the US.
1st Aug 1941 : Roosevelt stops US oil supplies to the 'aggressors'.
7th Dec 1941 : US naval base at Pearl Habour attacked by Japanese forces.
8th Dec 1941 : US declares war on Japan.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » August 25, 2003, 7:39 pm

I know the Soviets were really trying to get a feel for how their standing was with the Japanese. They were tying up queit a few divisions on the manchurian border. After the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor (which Stalin knew was coming, but didn't mention it to Roosevelt), The Soviets felt safe enough to withdrawl these divisions, and bring them west to defend Moscow from the Germans, who were like 35 miles away. They stemmed the German advance, and yaddy yadda yadda, the germans lost. As far as actual peace talks, I don't think the Soviets went that far...they just relied upon there intel contacts in Tokyo.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » August 25, 2003, 7:58 pm

While I remember Japan talking to U.S. about a diplomatic solution to the sanctions, i just dont feel like digging through google to find the details.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 25, 2003, 11:48 pm

eh it's fairly agreed upon I think (or at least I thought until I read some of Sionistic's posts here) that it was quite obvious that Japan had to attack out of desperation since they were running out of oil. Hence it is a cause and effect issue here.

Also.. a bit more controversial is the thought that the American president knew about the attack before it happened, yet let it happen because a kick in the balls was the only way to convince the American people to support a war. Cynical? Hell yes, but interesting idea nonetheless. Of course, I am just waiting for the assraping from Kylere and the crew now.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 26, 2003, 1:33 am

Kelshara wrote:eh it's fairly agreed upon I think (or at least I thought until I read some of Sionistic's posts here) that it was quite obvious that Japan had to attack out of desperation since they were running out of oil. Hence it is a cause and effect issue here.

To understand Japan's involvement in WW2 (particularly against the US) you have to understand Japan's culture. Even today the Japanese can be described as xenophobic and paranoid, but in the 30s and 40s it was even worse. Japan has had western ifluences ruining their way of life since the final days of the shogunate. They viewed the united states as a threat to their culture and their way of life, and Roosevelt's (very appropriate) decision to put trade and oil embargos on Japan while they were committing so many human rights atrocities in China as an act of war.

Roosevelt had sent one last plea for peace to Emporer Hirohito one day before the Japanese struck at Pearl Harbor. In those days, Hirohito was a God-King to the Japanese and his rule was pretty much absolute. He was also a despotic warlord who's goal in life was to exterminate every living Chinese person from the asian continent. Regardless of that, instead of aquiesing to the united state's demands, he thought to attack them. His naval and military officers advised against attacking the united states directly, but were bound by honor and oath to obey the emporer. Hirohito viewed Americans as lazy and stupid with little resolve.

He thought to attack Pearl Harbor and then move his armada out to San Francisco, thinking the Americans would not want to get into an extended war (because of the USA's reluctance to get involved in europe) and give in to his demands. He was actually probably close to being right as most Americans at the time were not interested in fighting another war after WW1 and the spanish american war. He obvious underestimated America's resolve and how angry they would get from being attacked on their home soil, however. The rush of volunteers for military service on Monday the day after the attack was so huge that the department of war had to set up special facilities even in smaller cities to cope with the rush of pissed off americans.

Also.. a bit more controversial is the thought that the American president knew about the attack before it happened, yet let it happen because a kick in the balls was the only way to convince the American people to support a war. Cynical? Hell yes, but interesting idea nonetheless. Of course, I am just waiting for the assraping from Kylere and the crew now.

It is extremely, extremely unlikely that Roosevelt, or anyone in the US, knew in advance before the attack. It all happened so fast. Coded attack messages from Japan to Nagumo's fleet in the pacific weren't decoded in Washington until 1PM their time (the messages themselves intercepted at about 11AM washington time). Pearl Harbor was attacked at 6AM Hawaii time which is 5 or 6 hours behind DC, so there was not a very large window of opportunity to warn Hawaii of an attack. Especially since messages then were sent by telegraph. Pearl Harbor did not get the warning that it was to be attacked until a couple of hours after it was already a smoking crater.

Only the very high up ranking admirals and Hirohito himself knew of the attack in advance. It was planned out on shore at one of his castles and the ships moved out into position in the pacific without any knowledge as to what their mission was. Pilots did not know what they were about to bomb until they were out on deck waiting for their planes to be prepared.

A lot of people surmise that Roosevelt let it happen because it would be the only thing to galvanize the mostly apathetic and isolationist US population onto the world stage, and indeed it was the best thing that could have happened to achieve his goals and for his career altogether, unless the US had a spy way up in the upper echelon of Japan's military leaders, there's no way anyone could have known. At the time, the DoW only had a partial translation of the code the Japanese used.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 26, 2003, 2:54 am

C+

No mention of the Aircraft Carriers being out to sea.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 26, 2003, 4:43 am

it wasnt relevant.

much like you.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » August 26, 2003, 12:55 pm

It is extremely, extremely unlikely that Roosevelt, or anyone in the US, knew in advance before the attack. It all happened so fast.

While I will probably get flamed about a geocities source, here it is anyway
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

Warnings of Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor
27 January 1941, Dr. Ricardo Shreiber, the Peruvian envoy in Tokyo told Max Bishop, third secretary of the US embassy that he had just learned from his intelligence sources that there was a war plan involving a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor. This information was sent to the State Department and Naval Intelligence and to Admiral Kimmel at Hawaii.
31 March 1941 - A Navy report by Bellinger and Martin predicted that if Japan made war on the US, they would strike Pearl Harbor without warning at dawn with aircraft from a maximum of 6 carriers. For years Navy planners had assumed that Japan, on the outbreak of war, would strike the American fleet wherever it was. The fleet was the only threat to Japan's plans. Logically, Japan couldn't engage in any major operation with the American fleet on its flank. The strategic options for the Japanese were not unlimited.
10 July - US Military Attache Smith-Hutton at Tokyo reported Japanese Navy secretly practicing aircraft torpedo attacks against capital ships in Ariake Bay. The bay closely resembles Pearl Harbor.
July - The US Military Attache in Mexico forwarded a report that the Japanese were constructing special small submarines for attacking the American fleet in Pearl Harbor, and that a training program then under way included towing them from Japan to positions off the Hawaiian Islands, where they practiced surfacing and submerging.
10 August 1941, the top British agent, code named "Tricycle", Dusko Popov, told the FBI of the planned attack on Pearl Harbor and that it would be soon. The FBI told him that his information was "too precise, too complete to be believed. The questionnaire plus the other information you brought spell out in detail exactly where, when, how, and by whom we are to be attacked. If anything, it sounds like a trap." He also reported that a senior Japanese naval person had gone to Taranto to collect all secret data on the attack there and that it was of utmost importance to them. The info was given to Naval IQ.
Early in the Fall, Kilsoo Haan, an agent for the Sino-Korean People's League, told Eric Severeid of CBS that the Korean underground in Korea and Japan had positive proof that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor before Christmas. Among other things, one Korean had actually seen the plans. In late October, Haan finally convinced US Senator Guy Gillette that the Japanese were planning to attack in December or January. Gillette alerted the State Department, Army and Navy Intelligence and FDR personally.
24 September 1941, the " bomb plot" message in J-19 code from Japan Naval Intelligence to Japan' s consul general in Honolulu requesting grid of exact locations of ships pinpointed for the benefit of bombardiers and torpedo pilots was deciphered. There was no reason to know the EXACT location of ships in harbor, unless to attack them - it was a dead giveaway. Chief of War Plans Turner and Chief of Naval Operations Stark repeatedly kept it and warnings based on it prepared by Safford and others from being passed to Hawaii. The chief of Naval Intelligence Captain Kirk was replaced because he insisted on warning HI. It was lack of information like this that lead to the exoneration of the Hawaii commanders and the blaming of Washington for unpreparedness for the attack by the Army Board and Navy Court. At no time did the Japanese ever ask for a similar bomb plot for any other American military installation. Why the Roosevelt administration allowed flagrant Japanese spying on PH has never been explained, but they blocked 2 Congressional investigations in the fall of 1941 to allow it to continue. The bomb plots were addressed to "Chief of 3rd Bureau, Naval General Staff", marked Secret Intelligence message, and given special serial numbers, so their significance couldn't be missed.

Theres more warnings there also if you like

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 26, 2003, 3:44 pm

kyoukan wrote:it wasnt relevant.

much like you.

It was too relevant. Pertains to the possibility of knowing the attack was coming beforehand. The fact that all 4 carriers were out to sea (the targets the Japanese were actually after) does have huge consequences...ref: Midway)

revised grade: D-

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 26, 2003, 3:53 pm

wow the navy had ships that were out to sea. amazing.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 26, 2003, 4:36 pm

kyoukan wrote:wow the navy had ships that were out to sea. amazing.

Are you serious? The fact that all 4 aircraft carriers were out to sea when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor was a huge blow and directly impacted the rest of the war, specifically enabling us to kick Japan's ass at the Battle of Midway. Thanks US Intelligence. The US would have been in deep shit if it had lost those four carriers at Pearl Harbor.

The Doolittle Raid on Japan in April 1942 shook the Japanese military establishment that previously believed their homeland immune from air attack. To defend Japan they must extend their defensive perimeter eastward. Midway, a tiny island a thousand miles from Hawaii, became the target.

The Japanese threw almost the entire Imperial Fleet into the battle - six aircraft carriers, eleven battleships, thirteen cruisers, forty-five destroyers, assorted submarines, transports and mine sweepers. The Americans had cracked the Japanese code and knew something was up. The thin American defense consisted of three aircraft carriers (Hornet, Enterprise and Yorktown), eight cruisers, fourteen destroyers, and the aircraft stationed on Midway itself. The Yorktown, mauled in the Battle of the Coral Sea, limped into battle after band-aid repairs at Pearl Harbor.

The Americans had surprise on their side, and luck. On June 4, they discovered the Japanese fleet northeast of Midway. An air battle quickly developed. The turning point came at mid-morning. The Japanese fighters were drawn down to sea level by attacking American torpedo bombers, all of which were lost. Their sacrifice cleared the skies above for the American dive-bombers. Within minutes three Japanese carriers were ablaze. Hiryu, the fourth Japanese carrier retaliated with an air attack sinking the Yorktown. That afternoon American aircraft caught the Hiryu, inflicting serious damage. The Japanese fleet retreated. The one-day battle reversed the tide of war in the Pacific, six months after Pearl Harbor. From that point on, Japan would be on the defensive

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 26, 2003, 7:09 pm

I'm not questioning the fact that the ships were effective. I'm questioning your assertion that the fact they were not in Pearl Harbor at the time of the attack as some kind of evidence that the united states knew about it advance.

Do you really think that Roosevelt and his cabinet and the department of war were involved in some kind of conspiracy that involved the deaths of 3000 servicemen, five main battleships, nine other ships including destroyers and frigates, and 200 aircraft?

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 26, 2003, 7:13 pm

kyoukan wrote:I'm not questioning the fact that the ships were effective. I'm questioning your assertion that the fact they were not in Pearl Harbor at the time of the attack as some kind of evidence that the united states knew about it advance.

Do you really think that Roosevelt and his cabinet and the department of war were involved in some kind of conspiracy that involved the deaths of 3000 servicemen, five main battleships, nine other ships including destroyers and frigates, and 200 aircraft?

I've read this conspirancy theory. I've also read the Roosevelt veto'd using gas against JPN. I find it hard to believe a man that wouldn't gas his enemy would sacrafice his own men (not to mention the equipment).

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » August 26, 2003, 7:45 pm

kyoukan wrote:I'm not questioning the fact that the ships were effective. I'm questioning your assertion that the fact they were not in Pearl Harbor at the time of the attack as some kind of evidence that the united states knew about it advance.

Do you really think that Roosevelt and his cabinet and the department of war were involved in some kind of conspiracy that involved the deaths of 3000 servicemen, five main battleships, nine other ships including destroyers and frigates, and 200 aircraft?

He sent those ships out because an attack was suspected, but not enough that he wanted to send the whole harbor into an alert.
And about the conspiracy, while it may seem extreme, i wouldnt completly dismiss the idea.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 26, 2003, 9:26 pm

kyoukan wrote:I'm not questioning the fact that the ships were effective. I'm questioning your assertion that the fact they were not in Pearl Harbor at the time of the attack as some kind of evidence that the united states knew about it advance.

Do you really think that Roosevelt and his cabinet and the department of war were involved in some kind of conspiracy that involved the deaths of 3000 servicemen, five main battleships, nine other ships including destroyers and frigates, and 200 aircraft?

I believe it was mostly luck that the Aircraft Carriers weren't in port at the time of the attack. The US was extremely lucky there and also very lucky at Midway. A lot of luck but the U.S. also has always been good at code cracking and intelligence.

As for sacrificing lives and equipment, Churchill did just that for the same reasons it might be considered by Roosevelt...to not tip the enemy off about our ability to decipher their encrypted communications. The timelines of the two events are out of whack but the reasoning might be similar (if Roosevelt did indeed know about the attack)

edit: there is some debate over whether Churchill knew about the bombing at Coventry prior to it occuring.