Bush commutes Libby sentence

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

As for "it was a very big deal", really? What do you base that assertion on? Really. Show me something that shows some real outrage about it, news services still have stories from 2001 online.
.

FindLaw Forum: Pardon me, but Clinton's defense of pardons doesn't wash
by Edward Lazarus
FindLaw Columnist
Special to CNN.com



February 21, 2001
Web posted at: 11:48 a.m. EST (1648 GMT)

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ALSO
Pardon charges could be hard to prove - February 15, 2001



(FINDLAW) -- William Jefferson Clinton's defense of his last-minute presidential pardons, which appeared in The New York Times on the Op Ed page on Sunday, raises at least as many questions as it answers.

Even the Times itself on the same day was critical of the Op Ed piece. Already, Clinton is having to backtrack on his claim that three "distinguished Republican attorneys" -- Leonard Garment, Brad Reynolds, and Lewis Libby -- "reviewed and advocated" the case for the Marc Rich and Pincus Green pardons.

As it turns out, while these lawyers helped build a defense for the pardon recipients, they played no role in the pardon request itself.

No doubt Clinton critics in Congress and elsewhere are digging beneath Clinton's other claims and defenses as presented in the column -- especially his crucial "no quid pro quo" denial that Marc Rich's ex-wife Denise Rich's contributions to the Clinton library and various Democratic political campaigns influenced the pardon decision.

It would be easy to poke holes in Clinton's Op Ed defense. He leaves unexplained, for example, why he or his advisers did not consult with the Justice Department's pardon attorney or give the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, Mary Jo White, who originally brought the Rich-Green case, a chance to defend the merits of her prosecution.

But what I found most interesting about Clinton's explanation was not these obvious omissions. Rather, it was the way Clinton's general discussion of the pardon power actually highlighted the significant damage he may have caused when he showered get-out-of-jail-free cards on his political supporters.

Historical justifications of such pardons
In the wake of the Clinton pardons, critics have already started talking about limiting the Constitution's granting of broad, unreviewable "plenary" power to the president to award "reprieves and pardons" for federal offenses. The Clinton Op Ed piece, in contrast, makes a strong case -- albeit implicitly -- for why such unfettered executive authority was a wise invention.

American history is littered with prosecutions that, in hindsight, appear overzealous or politically motivated -- and Clinton's column refers to several of them. For example, Eugene Debs garnered millions of votes when he ran for president, but the nation sent him to jail anyway, for the "crime" of giving a politically unpopular speech. President Harding was more than justified in pardoning Debs.

Other prosecutions, although originally well-justified, have been eclipsed by changing times. In the 1960s and 70s, the government indicted thousands of Vietnam draft resisters. President Carter's omnibus pardon of them helped bind up, and heal, the nation's wounds from the Vietnam era. President Washington's pardon of the Whiskey Rebellion conspirators, and even President Ford's pardon of Richard Nixon, served much the same function.

Pardons have also served as a reasonable reward for individuals whose public service or private virtue has come to overshadow a transgression in their pasts -- demonstrating that the transgression was an aberration, not part of a pattern.

In addition, pardons can serve as a last safeguard for cases in which belatedly discovered evidence casts doubt on an accused person's guilt, but normal judicial remedies have proved fruitless.

Clinton's pardons and tradition
The best test of Clinton's pardons is whether they fit within the important historical tradition in which he attempted to place himself. The answer is that some do, but some do not -- and the Marc Rich pardon is one that certainly does not.

Some of Clinton's pardons undoubtedly fit the bill. I can readily see why he pardoned Patty Hearst, a tragic figure from a tortured time whose criminal conviction had long since outlived its usefulness. I can even see why Clinton pardoned targets of the independent counsels who dogged his administration: Several of the independent counsel prosecutions took on the cast of political witch-hunts.

But several other Clinton pardons cannot possibly be squared with the high purposes Clinton invoked in his column.

Consider the pardon of Marc Rich.

Rich has been a fugitive from American justice for 18 years. While the wisdom of the indictment against Rich may be debated, there is no evidence that it was politically motivated. Nor is there evidence that it had no merit.

Rich's attorneys claim he is a victim of overeager prosecutors, who based the charges against him on a strained interpretation of complex corporate laws. But these claims have never been tested in court. Indeed, thanks to Rich's flight abroad, they represent little more than the expensive musings of Rich's army of well-connected defense attorneys.

Finally, the Rich pardon cannot be said to serve some larger national purpose. On the contrary, it has defeated an important national ideal: ensuring equal justice for rich and poor alike.

Nor is Rich's pardon an isolated instance. In his last days in office, for example, Clinton shortened the prison sentences of four members of the New Square Hasidic community, the support of whom Hillary Clinton successfully courted during her Senate race. The four New Square men had been convicted of bilking U.S. taxpayers out of tens of millions of dollars.

No one argued these men were innocent. And it would take a lot of chutzpah to argue that the sentences for white-collar criminals are too harsh, when blue-collar defendants serve long terms for relatively minor drugs offenses. So what higher moral value could possibly justify cutting these prison terms? The answer is none.

Dangers of undermining powers to pardon
The point is simple. Clinton's last-day pardon orgy is so distressing precisely because past pardons have served such significant purposes. The Constitution, as Clinton noted, makes the pardon power a matter of unfettered presidential discretion. But there is no greater enemy to the future exercise of wise discretion than the abuse of that power.

Clinton's pardons destroy the high standards of the past and set the bar low for the future. In the worst case, they could lead to a Constitutional amendment limiting a power many presidents have used for wise and just ends.

As Clinton observed in his Op Ed piece, granting well-deserved pardons has often been a controversial and politically dangerous act. In our political culture, it is always easier to prosecute than to forbear, and to punish rather than to forgive. But by issuing pardons that undermine the pardon tradition, Clinton has made it all the more difficult for his successors to muster the political courage to issue the kinds of pardons upon which history is most likely to look kindly.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edward Lazarus writes about, practices, and teaches law in Los Angeles. A former federal prosecutor, he is the author of two books, of which the most recent is "Closed Chambers: The Rise, Fall, and Future of the Modern Supreme Court." Edward Lazarus is also a FindLaw columnist.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright © 1994-2000 FindLaw. Printed with permission from FindLaw

House panel opens new hearings into Clinton pardons

Rep. Dan Burton opens the hearings.

March 1, 2001
Web posted at: 12:32 p.m. EST (1732 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A House panel has opened a new round of hearings this afternoon into former President Bill Clinton's controversial late-term pardons, a day after reaching an agreement with Clinton's lawyer on viewing a list of donors to Clinton's library foundation.

The House Government Reform Committee has begun the new round of hearings, with three former top White House aides scheduled to appear before Chairman Dan Burton's panel to testify about the final days of decision-making that led to Clinton's last-minute pardons.

Former White House Counsel Beth Nolan, Chief of Staff John Podesta and adviser Bruce Lindsey will likely tell the committee about the deliberations over the controversial pardon of fugitive financier Marc Rich, which has sparked two congressional and one federal criminal probe.

Clinton, hoping to put the pardons scandal to rest, has waived any executive privilege claims and given his aides approval to testify freely when they appear before the panel.

The committee subpoenaed the three aides in its widening investigation of possible influence peddling or links between campaign donations and the pardon of Rich and others on Clinton's last day in office. Marc Rich's ex-wife Denise gave more than $1 million to Democratic causes and $450,000 to the Clinton library.

The committee and a lawyer for Clinton reached an agreement Wednesday that will give congressional investigators access to a winnowed-down list of donors to the Clinton Library Foundation, one day before the committee is scheduled to hold a hearing on some of the pardons meted out by Clinton during his last hours as president.

In the agreement between the panel and Clinton library and personal attorney David Kendall, the committee is to be given a list of some donors, amounts of donations and dates of the pledges.

Because of the compromise, an appearance by library president Skip Rutherford at a committee hearing Thursday has been canceled.

Kendall had earlier offered to let Burton, ranking Democrat Henry Waxman of California and top attorneys view the lists, but Republicans had resisted some of the restrictions imposed on their review.

The committee has subpoenaed lists of all donors contributing more than $5,000 to the Clinton library fund in hopes of finding evidence of possible donations linked to the Rich pardon, and threatened library officials with contempt if they did not comply.

Also on tap to appear before the panel was former Democratic National Committee finance chairwoman Beth Dozoretz, who has informed investigators that she will invoke her Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination and refuse to answer committee questions.

Clinton's pardon of Rich, who fled to Switzerland 17 years ago to avoid prosecution on racketeering, wire fraud, income tax evasion and illegal oil trading charges, is at the center of the congressional and criminal probes.

But the committee's probe has expanded to look at a number of other pardons and sentence commutations by Clinton, including those of a convicted swindler and a major cocaine dealer who paid some $400,000 to Hugh Rodham, Clinton's brother-in-law, to advance their bids for clemency.

Rodham ultimately gave the money back after Clinton and former first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton complained.

Testimony and documents in the congressional probes have indicated there was considerable debate over the Rich pardon in the final days of Clinton's presidency, with Clinton telling Dozoretz in one phone call that he was trying to "turn around" the counsel's office on the issue.

Witnesses also have said the Rich pardon and others did not go through normal Justice Department channels. A former pardon attorney told a House Judiciary subcommittee Wednesday that because of Clinton's inclination to bypass regular Justice Department channels "the final Clinton pardons were an accident waiting to happen."

"The Clinton administration's short-sighted and ill-advised decision to abandon the long-standing regular system of Justice Department review led directly to the reported free-for-all at the end of his term and the resultant appearance of cronyism and influence peddling," said Margaret Love, who was the Justice Department pardon attorney from 1990 to 1997.

Marc Rich's attorney Jack Quinn, a former White House counsel, and former Rich attorney Lewis Libby, now Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, also are expected to testify at the hearing.

Reuters contributed to this report.

I'm not going to post any more. Go to Google.com and type in "clinton pardons". Search the new results archives. Hard huh?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Pardon Grants January 2001
Name Home Town Offenses
ALLEN, Verla Jean Everton, Arkansas False statements to agency of United States
ALTIERE, Nicholas M. Las Vegas, Nevada Importation of cocaine
ALTSCHUL, Bernice Ruth Sherman Village, California Conspiracy to commit money laundering
ANDERSON, Joe, Jr. Grove Hill, Alabama Income tax evasion
ANDERSON, William Sterling Spartanburg, South Carolina Conspiracy to defraud a federally insured financial institution, false statements to a federally insured financial institution, wire fraud
AZIZKHANI, Mansour T. Huntsville, Alabama Conspiracy and making false statements in bank loan applications
BABIN, Cleveland Victor, Jr. Oklahoma City, Oklahoma Conspiracy to commit offense against the United States by utilizing the U.S. mail in furtherance of a scheme to defraud
BAGLEY, Chris Harmon Harrah, Oklahoma Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute cocaine
BANE, Scott Lynn Mahomet, Illinois Unlawful distribution of marijuana
BARBER, Thomas Cleveland Hampton, Florida Issuing worthless checks
BARGON, Peggy Ann Monticello, Illinois Violation of the Lacey Act, violation of the Bald Eagle Protection Act
BHATKA, Tansukhlal Income tax evasion
BLAMPIED, David Roscoe Ketchum, Idaho Conspiracy to distribute cocaine
BORDERS, William Arthur, Jr. Washington, D.C. Conspiracy to corruptly solicit and accept money in return for influencing the official acts of a federal district court judge (Alcee L. Hastings), and to defraud the United States in connection with the performance of lawful government functions; corruptly influencing, obstructing, impeding and endeavoring to influence, obstruct and impede the due administration of justice, and aiding and abetting therein; traveling interstate with intent to commit bribery
BOREL, Arthur David Little Rock, Arkansas Odometer rollback
BOREL, Douglas Charles Conway, Arkansas Odometer rollback
BRABHAM, George Thomas Austin, Texas Making a false statement or report to a federally insured bank
BRASWELL, Almon Glenn Doravilla, Georgia Conspiracy to defraud government with respect to claims; perjury
BROWDER, Leonard Aiken, South Carolina Illegal dispensing of controlled substance and Medicaid fraud
BROWN, David Steven New York, New York Securities fraud and mail fraud
BURLESON, Delores Caroylene, aka Delores Cox Burleson Hanna, Oklahoma Possession of marijuana
BUSTAMANTE, John H. Cleveland, Ohio Wire fraud
CAMPBELL, Mary Louise Ruleville, Mississippi Aiding and abetting the unauthorized use and transfer of food stamps
CANDELARIA, Eloida False information in registering to vote
CAPILI, Dennis Sobrevinas Glendale, California Filing false statements in alien registration
CHAMBERS, Donna Denise Memphis, Tennessee Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute and to distribute cocaine, possession with intent to distribute cocaine, use of a telephone to facilitate cocaine conspiracy
CHAPMAN, Douglas Eugene Scott, Arkansas Bank fraud
CHAPMAN, Ronald Keith Scott, Arkansas Bank fraud
CHAVEZ, Francisco Larios Santa Ana, California Aiding and abetting illegal entry of aliens
CISNEROS, Henry G.
CLINTON, Roger
COHN, Stuart Harris New Haven, Connecticut 1. Illegal sale of gold options
2. Illegal sale of silver options

COOPER, David Marc Wapakoneta, Ohio Conspiracy to defraud the government
COX, Ernest Harley, Jr. Pine Bluff, Arkansas Conspiracy to defraud a federally insured savings and loan, misapplication of bank funds, false statements
CROSS, John F., Jr. Little Rock, Arkansas Embezzlement by a bank employee
CUNNINGHAM, Rickey Lee Amarillo, Texas Possession with intent to distribute marijuana
DE LABIO, Richard Anthony Baltimore, Maryland Mail fraud, aiding and abetting
DEUTCH, John Described in January 19, 2001 information
DOUGLAS, Richard False statements
DOWNE, Edward Reynolds Conspiracy to commit wire fraud and tax evasion; securities fraud
DUDLEY, Marvin Dean Omaha, Nebraska False statements
DUNCAN, Larry Lee Branson, Missouri Altering an automobile odometer
FAIN, Robert Clinton Aiding and assisting in the preparation of a false corporate tax return
FERNANDEZ, Marcos Arcenio Miami, Florida Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute marijuana
FERROUILLET, Alvarez Interstate transport of stolen property, money laundering, false statements
FUGAZY, William Denis Harrison, New York Perjury in a bankruptcy proceeding
GEORGE, Lloyd Reid Mail fraud
GOLDSTEIN, Louis Las Vegas, Nevada Possession of goods stolen from interstate shipment
GORDON, Rubye Lee Tampa, Florida Forgery of U.S. Treasury checks
GREEN, Pincus Switzerland
HAMNER, Robert Ivey Searcy, Arkansas Conspiracy to distribute marijuana, possession of marijuana with intent to distribute
HANDLEY, Samuel Price Hodgenville, Kentucky Conspiracy to steal government property
HANDLEY, Woodie Randolph Hodgenville, Kentucky Conspiracy to steal government property
HARMON, Jay Houston Jonesboro, Arkansas 1. Conspiracy to import marijuana, conspiracy to possess marijuana with intent to distribute, importation of marijuana, possession of marijuana with intent to distribute

2. Conspiracy to import cocaine

HEMMINGSON, John Interstate transport of stolen property, money laundering
HERDLINGER, David S. St. Simons Island, Georgia Mail fraud
HUCKLEBERRY, Debi Rae Ogden, Utah Distribution of methamphetamine
JAMES, Donald Ray Fairfield Bay, Arkansas Mail fraud, wire fraud, and false statement to a bank to influence credit approval
JOBE, Stanley Pruet El Paso, Texas Conspiracy to commit bank fraud, and bank fraud
JOHNSON, Ruben H. Austin, Texas Theft and misapplication of bank funds by a bank officer or director
JONES, Linda Conspiracy to commit bank fraud and other offenses against the United States
LAKE, James Howard Illegal corporate campaign contributions, wire fraud
LEWIS, June Louise Lowellville, Ohio Embezzlement by a bank employee
LEWIS, Salim Bonnor Short Hills, New Jersey Securities fraud, record keeping violations, margin violations
LODWICK, John Leighton Excelsior Springs, Missouri Income tax evasion
LOPEZ, Hildebrando San Isidro, Texas Distribution of cocaine
LUACES, Jose Julio Ft. Lauderdale, Florida Possession of an unregistered firearm
MANESS, James Timothy Conspiracy to distribute a controlled substance
MANNING, James Lowell Little Rock, Arkansas Aiding and assisting in the preparation of a false corporate tax return
MARTIN, John Robert Gulf Breeze, Florida Income tax evasion
MARTINEZ, Frank Ayala Elgin, Texas Conspiracy to supply false documents to the Immigration and Naturalization Service
MARTINEZ, Silvia Leticia Beltran Elgin, Texas Conspiracy to supply false documents to the Immigration and Naturalization Service
McCORMICK, John Francis Dedham, Massachusetts Racketeering conspiracy, racketeering, and violation of the Hobbs act
McDOUGAL, Susan H.
MECHANIC, Howard Lawrence 1. Violating the Civil Disobedience Act of 1968

2. Failure to appear

3. Making false statement in acquiring a passport

MITCHELL, Brook K., Sr. Conspiracy to illegally obtain USDA subsidy payments, false statements to USDA, and false entries on USDA forms
MORGAN, Charles Wilfred, III Little Rock, Arkansas Conspiracy to distribute cocaine
MORISON, Samuel Loring Crofton, Maryland Willful transmission of defense information, unauthorized possession and retention of defense information, theft of government property
NAZZARO, Richard Anthony Winchester, Massachusetts Perjury and conspiracy to commit mail fraud
NOSENKO, Charlene Ann Phoenix, Arizona Conspiracy to defraud the United States, and influencing or injuring an officer or juror generally
OBERMEIER, Vernon Raymond Belleville, Illinois Conspiracy to distribute cocaine, distribution of cocaine, and using a communications facility to facilitate distribution of cocaine
OGALDE, Miguelina Glendale, California Conspiracy to import cocaine
OWEN, David C. Olathe, Kansas Filing a false tax return
PALMER, Robert W. Little Rock, Arkansas Conspiracy to make false statements
PERHOSKY, Kelli Anne Bridgeville, Pennsylvania Conspiracy to commit mail fraud
PEZZOPANE, Richard H. Palo Heights, Illinois Conspiracy to commit racketeering, and mail fraud
PHILLIPS, Orville Rex Waco, Texas Unlawful structure of a financial transaction
POLING, Vinson Stewart, Jr. Baldwin, Maryland Making a false bank entry, and aiding and abetting
PROUSE, Norman Lyle Conyers, Georgia Operating or directing the operation of a common carrier while under the influence of alcohol
PRUITT, Willie H. H., Jr. Port Richey, Florida Absent without official leave
PURSLEY, Danny Martin, Sr. Goodlettsville, Tennessee Aiding and abetting the conduct of an illegal gambling business, and obstruction of state laws to facilitate illegal gambling
RAVENEL, Charles D. Charleston, South Carolina Conspiracy to defraud the United States
RAY, William Clyde Altus, Oklahoma Fraud using a telephone
REGALADO, Alfredo Luna Pharr, Texas Failure to report the transportation of currency in excess of $10,000 into the United States
RICAFORT, Ildefonso Reynes Houston, Texas Submission of false claims to Veterans Administration
RICH, Marc Switzerland
RIDDLE, Howard Winfield Mt. Crested Butte, Colorado Violation of the Lacey Act (receipt of illegally imported animal skins)
RILEY, Richard Wilson, Jr. Possession of cocaine with intent to distribute
ROBBINS, Samuel Lee Cedar Park, Texas Misprision of a felony
RODRIGUEZ, Joel Gonzales Houston, Texas Theft of mail by a postal employee
ROGERS, Michael James McAllen, Texas Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute marijuana
ROSS, Anna Louise Lubbock, Texas Distribution of cocaine
RUST, Gerald Glen Avery, Texas False declarations before grand jury
RUST, Jerri Ann Avery, Texas False declarations before grand jury
RUTHERFORD, Bettye June Albuquerque, New Mexico Possession of marijuana with intent to distribute
SANDS, Gregory Lee Sioux Falls, South Dakota Conspiracy to distribute cocaine
SCHWIMMER, Adolph Conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, conspiracy to export arms and ammunition to a foreign country and related charges
SERETTI, Albert A., Jr. McKees Rocks, Pennyslvania Conspiracy and wire fraud
SHAW, Patricia Campbell Hearst Wilton, Connecticut Armed bank robbery and using a firearm during a felony
SMITH, Dennis Joseph Redby, Minnesota 1. Unauthorized absence

2. Failure to obey off-limits instructions

3. Unauthorized absence

SMITH, Gerald Owen Florence, Mississippi Armed bank robbery
SMITH, Stephen A.
SPEAKE, Jimmie Lee Breckenridge, Texas Conspiracy to possess and utter counterfeit $20 Federal Reserve notes
STEWART, Charles Bernard Sparta, Georgia Illegally destroying U.S. Mail
STEWART-ROLLINS, Marlena Francisca Euclid, Ohio Conspiracy to distribute cocaine
SYMINGTON, John Fife, III
TANNEHILL, Richard Lee Reno, Nevada Conspiracy and restraint of trade
TENAGLIA, Nicholas C. Lafayette Hill, Pennsylvania Receipt of illegal payments under the Medicare program
THOMAS, Gary Allen Lancaster, Texas Theft of mail by postal employee
TODD, Larry Weldon Gardendale, Texas Conspiracy to commit an offense against the U.S. in violation of the Lacey Act and the Airborne Hunting Act
TREVINO, Olga C. Converse, Texas Misapplication by a bank employee
VAMVOUKLIS, Ignatious Exeter, New Hampshire Possession of cocaine
VAN DE WEERD, Patricia A. Tomahawk, Wisconsin Theft by a U.S. Postal employee
WADE, Christopher V.
WARMATH, Bill Wayne Walls, Mississippi Obstruction of correspondence
WATSON, Jack Kenneth Oakridge, Oregon Making false statements of material facts to the U.S. Forest Service
WEBB, Donna Lynn Panama City, Florida False entry in savings and loan record by employee
WELLS, Donald William Phenix City, Alabama Possession of an unregistered firearm
WENDT, Robert H. Kirkwood, Missouri Conspiracy to effectuate the escape of a federal prisoner
WILLIAMS, Jack L. Making false statements to federal agents
WILLIAMS, Kevin Arthur Omaha, Nebraska Conspiracy to distribute and possess with intent to distribute crack cocaine
WILLIAMS, Robert Michael Davison, Michigan Conspiracy to transport in foreign commerce securities obtained by fraud
WILSON, Jimmie Lee Helena, Arkansas Converting property mortgaged or pledged to a farm credit agency, and converting public money to personal use
WINGATE, Thelma Louise Sale City, Georgia Mail fraud
WOOD, Mitchell Couey Sherwood, Arkansas Conspiracy to possess and to distribute cocaine
WOOD, Warren Stannard Las Vegas, Nevada Conspiracy to defraud the United States by filing a false document with the Securities and Exchange Commission
WORTHEY, Dewey Conway, Arkansas Medicaid fraud
YALE, Rick Allen Belleville, Illinois Bank fraud
YASAK, Joseph A. Chicago, Illinois Knowingly making under oath a false declaration regarding a material fact before a grand jury
YINGLING, William Stanley Interstate transportation of stolen vehicle
YOUNG, Phillip David Little Rock, Arkansas Interstate transportation and sale of fish and wildlife

[miir]

To further show the irrelevance of Clinton's pardons, here's a list of presidential pardons.

Franklin D. Roosevelt 3687
Woodrow Wilson 2480
Harry S. Truman 2044
Calvin Coolidge 1545
Herbert Hoover 1385
Ulysses S. Grant 1332
Lyndon B. Johnson 1187
Dwight D. Eisenhower 1157
Grover Cleveland * 1107
Theodore Roosevelt * 981
Richard Nixon 926
William McKinley * 918
Rutherford B. Hayes 893
Warren G. Harding 800
William H. Taft 758
Andrew Johnson 654
Benjamin Harrison 613
John F. Kennedy 575
Jimmy Carter 566
Bill Clinton 456
James Monroe 419
Gerald Ford 409
Ronald Reagan 406
Andrew Jackson 386
Abraham Lincoln 343
Chester Arthur 337
James K. Polk 268
John Tyler 209
James Madison 196
John Quincy Adams 183
Millard Fillmore 170
Martin Van Buren 168
James Buchanan 150
Franklin Pierce 142
Thomas Jefferson 119
George Bush 77
Zachary Taylor 38
John Adams 21
George Washington 16

So since you haven't provided any examples of similar pardons, can I safely say that this situation is unique?
Why are you Bush supporters so eager to justify his actions?
Do you think that Libby is innocent?
Do you think that he had been punished enough?
Do you think a fine is approprite punishemnt for his actions?

[Boogahz]

I do not think Libby is innocent of the charges he was convicted of, but I believe that the decision in that trial was based on more than just the official charges that should have been considered. Just as most people believe he should "fry" for the crime he did not commit (according to what he was tried for).

[Thess]

Clinton did some absolutely disgusting pardons as he left office.

I'm not a big believer in convicting someone where no crime can be proved, it's something authorities highly overuse in this country, they can't prove the crime so they prove the conspiracy to cover up.

All of that being said, I find it highly hypocritical for the Bush administration who has continually preached tougher sentencing to commute Libby's sentence.

[Funkmasterr]

I do not think Libby is innocent of the charges he was convicted of, but I believe that the decision in that trial was based on more than just the official charges that should have been considered. Just as most people believe he should "fry" for the crime he did not commit (according to what he was tried for).

Nicely put, sir.

[Pherr the Dorf]

Clinton V Bush = Petty theft v. grand larceny.

[Funkmasterr]

Clinton V Bush = Petty theft v. grand larceny.

Seriously, the absolute fucking stupidity is starting to go beyond annoying. CAN YOU NOT READ WHAT HAS BEEN SLAPPED RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE YOU FUCKING RETARDED MONKEY?!? When someone starts making a solid point against the bullshit you and the dem regime continues to reiterate, do you really physically put your fingers in your ears like a fucking 5 year old?

[Nick]

The idiotic fact you and your lackies think Clinton is in any way comparable to Bush, let alone worse, in any regard whatsoever, just shows how fucking disconnected from reality and general intelligent opinion you really are.

It's embarrasing to read, sort your fucking life out mate.

[Funkmasterr]

The idiotic fact you and your lackies think Clinton is in any way comparable to Bush, let alone worse, in any regard whatsoever, just shows how fucking disconnected from reality and general intelligent opinion you really are.

It's embarrasing to read, sort your fucking life out mate.

I want you to know how much that means coming from you, sir.

[Pherr the Dorf]

Clinton V Bush = Petty theft v. grand larceny.

Seriously, the absolute fucking stupidity is starting to go beyond annoying. CAN YOU NOT READ WHAT HAS BEEN SLAPPED RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE YOU FUCKING RETARDED MONKEY?!? When someone starts making a solid point against the bullshit you and the dem regime continues to reiterate, do you really physically put your fingers in your ears like a fucking 5 year old?

Rich was a financial scumbag who was pardoned because he knew people, we'll see 300 of them pardoned when Bush is in his last week, you know it, I know it, so shut your fucking gob over that you nimrod.

Issue at hand... obstruction of justice in a trial for a treasonous act in wartime is a crime. Once more because you are a fucking idiot...
OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE IN A CASE OF THE HIGH CRIME OF TREASON AGAINST THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA DURING WARTIME.
You call yourself a patriot, you are a worthless fucking sheep lapping at the waste water Fox News has you drinking daily and not even worthy of enjoying the freedoms you have been granted sir.

[Funkmasterr]

I don't know why anyone wastes their time talking to you idiots here anymore, it's like talking to a fucking brick wall.

Oh btw, I don't watch Fox news (or any news channel for that matter), I'm not a republican, I'm not a redneck, and I don't believe in god. So please stop throwing recycled insults that involve all of the above listed things that do not apply to me, at me please - thanks.

[Jice Virago]

Newsflash Funk- Anyone from Minnesotta is a fucking redneck. Hell, I am partially redneck, being from Wisconsin. The only black people you see in Minnesota, outside of the three major cities, are all playing for the Vikings. And honestly, with the shitfest Minn has been in the last couple decades, I don't see how you can support these assholes unless you have been smoking the Fox News crack pipe. Your state has been fucked harder than any by these guys, both at a local and national level, than any outside the Katrina states and Texas.

[Funkmasterr]

Newsflash Funk- Anyone from Minnesota is a fucking redneck. Hell, I am partially redneck, being from Wisconsin. The only black people you see in Minnesota, outside of the three major cities, are all playing for the Vikings. And honestly, with the shitfest Minn has been in the last couple decades, I don't see how you can support these assholes unless you have been smoking the Fox News crack pipe. Your state has been fucked harder than any by these guys, both at a local and national level, than any outside the Katrina states and Texas.

Speak for yourself dude, but I happen to have lived here my entire life - and I assure you nothing you said about the demographic of this state is true until you get more than 50 miles out from the city (I never do, I live 5 minutes outside of downtown minneapolis) And the majority of the population of the state is located in said area.

I realize things are shitty here, I have a ton of complaints about the way things are done (and the way things aren't done at all) here, but guess what - this is nothing new, it wasn't something that magically came along when Bush was elected. After he has been out of the office for a couple of years, one party or the other is going to be doing this same shit slinging towards whomever the new president is, whether they really are the root of the problem or not.

[Jice Virago]

Then why defend Bush if he has done nothing for you? Do you actually agree with his foreign policy on any level?

For the record, I lived in Wisconsin most of my life before getting married out in Cali. My opinions are based on numerous times I had to travel to Minn and work in or near there. The cities are not in especially good shape (I would say comparable to Milwaukee, but a far cry from Madison in terms of quality of life) but they are much better than the smaller communities, I grant you. The only town I actually liked at all in many visits to Minn, was Redwing, and that was mainly for the view.

[Funkmasterr]

That's your opinion I guess, and I don't like redwing - it's too country for me.

Out of curiosity, what were you considering as the third major city in minnesota (besides minneapolis and st paul.)

[Jice Virago]

That's your opinion I guess, and I don't like redwing - it's too country for me.

Out of curiosity, what were you considering as the third major city in minnesota (besides minneapolis and st paul.)

Rochester.

[Canelek]

Is St Paul as much as a dive as every other state capitol--just curious--I try not to visit slums unless I am hunting me some good crack.

[Boogahz]

Austin isn't a dive!

[Funkmasterr]

I guess I don't consider Rochester a major city - I just think small town redneck when I think of that place.

I am not a big fan of St. Paul, Minneapolis has much more of a night life, and more to see (parks, museums, lakes, etc). Plus the road system in St. Paul was designed by a bunch of drunken Irish and makes absolutely no sense at all.

[Canelek]

Austin isn't a dive!

Ah yeah, good point. In fact, it is the only decent place in Texas!

[Traz-KOE]

I'd be curious to know the median age of the posters on this forum.

I only suggest that because of the attempts to draw on the end of Clinton's term as relevant to what is going on here.

To be perfectly honest, when Clinton left office I was 22 years old. I had barely gotten my own political footing and life was more about getting blitzed, hanging out with my friends, and making sure I brought in enough money to survive until the next paycheck arrived. Don't get me wrong, I certainly had some pretty strong opinions back then, but I was nowhere near as interested or informed as I try to be now. the Whitewater scandal meant having to change the channel to find something more fun to watch. A cum-stained blue dress meant that the prez was getting laid more than I was. I couldn't have cared less about that stuff and I couldn't have cared less about who got pardoned of what crime.

Now I'm 28 years old, I've attended and graduated from (as of June 2007, go me) a notable four-year university, held jobs in multiple industries, and am generally more interested in securing my own future than partying every night. I read the news daily, occasionally participate in debate, VOTE, and try to keep informed of the goings on of life in and about the place I live. I've travelled to other countries, and in doing so gained a small bit of perspective in regards to the world around me. I've mellowed in some respects, and become more outspoken or active in others; in any case, my views have crystallized somewhat, and I know what I want out of life. In school I learned how to research topics effectively, and now I find myself using those skills daily to enlighten myself as to current political, scientific, and cultural points of interest. Today I am outraged by the actions of my government in both domestic and foreign affairs. I am ashamed and embarrassed by the image of the average American that is perceived by others around the world. Today I am mature and informed enough to speak out against it and well capable of defending myself against those who question my seemingly sudden interest in world affairs.

In short, you'll have to forgive my apathetic 22 year-old self for not having given two shits about governmental travesties which may have occurred during my formulative and post-formulative years. I certainly don't speak for anyone else in this, but I imagine that it probably holds for more than just myself.

In any case, while I consider myself neither informed enough nor qualified to speak to the events surrounding the leak and trial I do believe what we have witnessed in Bush's commutation of Libby's sentence to be a miscarriage of justice and a slap in the face of due process. That is, whether or not Libby was a fall guy for the administration and whether or not his sentence was just the man was convicted of a crime and his sentence was commuted by a president with a strong conflict of interest before the legal process against him was even allowed to complete. When such outside interference with the legal system that governs my life is deemed acceptable by those who administer it I must find cause to question and worry about what it means for my future.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I'll be 35 in September.

[Jice Virago]

My birthday is September 17th, 1970. My parents were pseudo-hippies and I was one of those slacker high IQ kids, so I had a pretty accute political awareness fairly early on, enough to know how bad Reagan fucked the country and process my father's rants about the Viet-Nam era. I am deffinately in the minority for my age group. My opinions on prior presidents within my lifetime:

Carter-
Too Naive, but had his heart in the right place. Fucked up massively in letting the intelligence agencies talk him into a hostage rescue, but he also did more to advance Middle East peace than any president, before or since.

Reagan-
Laid all the groundwork for the current administration, in terms of philosophy and lack of ethical behavior. He was also probably a puppet of Bush Sr (not entirely a bad thing), but was moderate on a few key social issues. His biggest accomplishment was pressuring the Soviets into changing their government. His biggest failure was the Iran Contra scandal and passing on so much national debt. He also did a lot to enhance the US self image and reputation as a Super Power, but sometimes at the expense of foreign relations.

Bush Sr-
Went after Noriega to cover his shady dealings as CIA director, went back on his no new taxes pledge, but otherwise an ok president. He went on to be the sorest loser in presidential history by stripping the White House of all personell after losing his re-election bid. The first Iraqi War was the right thing to do, but he should have followed through and conquered Iraq then and there. Unfortunately his hands were tied by a lot of his arab oil pals and Sadam remained in power.

Clinton-
Created the highest worldwide goodwill towards the US of any president since FDR. His biggest failures were getting a little too friendly with the Chinese, not taking a more active role in health care reform, and not keeping his dick in his pants. He also had a lot of shady friends in Arkansas that he probably should not have hung around with. He was probably the most centrist president of the modern era, but he indirectly hurt his own party as a result (not that that is a bad thing) of his centrist views. His biggest accomplishments were igniting the economy for the middle class, raising the world opinion of the US, and making gay rights a national issue.

That answer all of your questions?

[Winnow]

Carter
Has done his best work after leaving the Oval Office. The late 70's sucked.

Reagan
One of America's greatest presidents. Excellent speaker. Was able to delegate responsibilities well. Revitalized the American spirit.

Bush Sr
Workhorse president. Deserved a second term. Combined with Reagan's eight years, the 12 best years this nation has seen.

Clinton
All fluff. More worried about his hair than anything else. Screwed the U.S. for years to come.

Bush Jr
The first non president. Just a figurehead/puppet with others pulling the strings.

[Jice Virago]

Clinton was a far superior speaker to Reagan, but Ron was deffinately the undisputed # 2 speaker of rescent presidents and probably the best public speaker in Republican history. He did have a tendancy to make verbal gaffes, which Clinton only really did once. Reagan also fell asleep on national TV while talking to the pope and, if memory serves, farted audibly during one of his speeches on live TV (which actually enhances my opinion of him), which puts him behind Clinton, in my estimation. Where Ronny had an edge on Bill, in terms of speaking, is when it was speaking abroad. Domestically, Bill smoked him as a speaker and had much more raw charisma.

No way Clinton fucked the economy half as hard as Ron did, unless you are a white kid who inherrited their parents money or something. Reagan left office passing on a crushing amount of national debt (which took Bush Sr and Slick Willy a collective 12 years to unfuck) while Bill left office with a budget surpluss. Reagan was also a racist and jesus freak, which stained a lot of his politics; traits he and Bush Jr share. Ronny was also the all time gay basher, stagnating aids research until it became obvious that it was not a gay exclusive disease. Ronny also was the worst environmental president in history, until W blew him out of the water on that one, but Bill didn't exactly do a lot to reverse the situation, despite Gore riding his ass on it forever. Biggest damage Bill did to the economy was not encouraging tighter investment regulations that could have stopped the whole dot com bubble fiasco, but the government has been notoriously slow in general about properly regulating the impact of information technology on the economy, so he is not alone in this regard.

I would argue that Reagan and Clinton were fairly on par as far as delagating things went. Reagan had a fairly skilled cabinet who, while partisan, were reasonable and competant people, generally. Unfortunately, its the more incompetant and hateful cocksuckers of that bunch who migrated back into power when W took office (Rumsfeld and Cheney, chief among the retards) instead of the Casper Wienburgers of the crowd. Clinton didn't have a bad cabinet, but he didn't have any standouts. His cabinet had the advantage of being multi-party and diverse, plus he had the good sense not to fuck with Greenspan. I consider their cabinets a wash.

[Xyun]

I'm in the same boat as you traz, with the slight exception of the fact that my family was struggling for much of the nineties just to get to stay in the united states. I don't believe Reagan was a bad president although I did at some point. I still wholeheartedly disagree with the premise of "trickle-down economics". Reagan's heart was sincere and I'm probably going to buy the book about his diary (or is it his actual diary?) just to get a better understanding of the man. I was too figuratively blind in my teen and early 20s to see the good the man did for the country.

Although I know much less about Carter, I also believe his heart was in the right place.

I specifically remember where I was January 15th, 1991. I was in front of my television with a bowl of popcorn watching the beginning of Iraq part 1. I actually agreed with the way Bush Sr. handled the situation, including the decision not to invade iraq because the defensive posture in world politics, then and now, is in my opinion much more benevolent than the offensive one.

The most significant memories I have of Clinton's term is that the mood of the country in general was happy and light hearted. I mean if the worst thing we got to worry about is if the president got a hummer then things must not be going that badly. I think the country as a whole was doing pretty well economically. It seemed that the middle class (which happened to consist of everyone I knew), if not prospering was at least not being shunned.

However, from the very beginning of Bush Jr.'s campaign, I knew I despised the man. Knowing how and to what ends his staff went to win the governorship of Texas, I had no doubts about the their intentions to manipulate public opinion for self serving results. But Bush himself was never competent enough to achieve this and that's where Karl Rove comes into the picture. Take a look at the wikipedia article on Rove and you will not at all be surprised to see the patterns that have culminated into what we have today. I was outraged at how Bush won(?) the presidency despite the fact that I didn't have a rosy picture of Gore either. Even with that outrage I felt in early 2000 that Bush's term would be nothing but four years of utter incompetence and then he would easily get creamed in the next election. This thought was solidified even more when the stories on the news had more to do with what Bush wasn't doing than what he was doing. I specifically remember the overwhelming number of news articles and stories that had to do with the number of vacation days the president was taking.

Then came 9-11. Now Bush was forced to actually do his job which he had been blatantly avoiding and his veiled incompetence really began to reveal itself. Since then his entire term, with the exception of a sincere attempt to catch Osama Bin Laden initially, has been one outrage after another. So much so that the public has become numb to it and cannot wait for the next president, be they republican or democrat.

As with the other presidents mentioned, I think Bush was sincere in his desire to do what is best for this country, especially in the immediate days and months following 9-11. Unfortunately, he was too incompetent to ever be able to achieve his goals with even the slightest measure of success. I think the unfortunate thing for him is that the blame he receives for the state of affairs in this country is somewhat unwarranted. His flaw is not that he makes bad decisions, but rather that he allows and relies on others to make decisions for him. It just so happens that he is also incompetent at choosing those people as well.

I don't believe, and I would hope reasonable people would not believe, that he goes out of his way to fuck this country. What I think is that he gives carte blanche to people who don't have the purest of intentions when it comes to serving the public, which after all is their job. I think ultimately history will judge him thusly.

Bush's ultimate flaw is that he is naive to certain realities of this world, the foremost being that you fight fire with water, not fire, and hatred with compassion, not hatred.

[Fash]

Well said, Xyun. I can agree with just about all of that.

[Canelek]

I still think Reagan was one of the best speakers in our recent history. I saw him at the Little Rock Itnl airport in 1989 as he was campaigning for Old Bush. For an older fella, Ronnie was as suave a fucker as you could ever see. He knew the right buttons to push for his crowd.

Old Bush was a hard-worker for sure, and I do agree that the Gulf War was in the best interest. However, I think his foreign diplomacy was fuckawful....and not just the prime minister-aimed projectile vomit.

Clinton.... well, here is a tough one. Charismatic fucker, for sure--he won points with thousands by his Tonight Show appearance and self-deprecating snooze-speach jokes. Bad points....well, Brady Law for one. Heart in right place, yet utterly ill-founded and ultimately pointless. The sex scandal bit was a completely retarded move on his part. However, he was like that as governor of AR, so should have been generally expected. When I was living in Arkansas, the running joke was: "What is the definition of a Arkansas virgin?" A: "One that can outrun the governor."

Otherwise, he helped bolster the flagging international relations area by being a personable dude.

GW: Like many, I see 2 versions of the same sot: Pre/immediately post 9/11: Man of action, nationalist. He had some groovy speachwriting happening, and the country was on edge, sad and angry. His dad could have never stirred the nation like that.

2004-present GW: Same guy, same spiel,no results except for more Americans killed in most unpopular and unwinnable war since just before 1975....I am not even bringing Cambodia into this. I never thought I would see such blatant abuse of power. GW has been a horrid form of supercharged Id. He simply cannot admit his own mistakes, which I suppose goes with the position, but seriously... and then there is the whole bit about GOD AND FAMILY, etc....yeah, he got those christian cocksuckers good. If Bush believes in that shit as much as 75% of his followers do, than he is more naive than originally thought.

Who's next?

Everyone will have fundamental flaws (hehe, fundamental), but what flaw will bolster or fatally wound what already has been severely damaged over the last 7 years?


Sorry for the extra bush bashing there, I think my anger is more directed at the people who think he is actually doing a good job though....and I don't generally like most people.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I am disheartened to again find myself in agreement with Xyun. I would like to say this about yoru Clinton hummer philosphy though....it is not the act of the hummer that is in question. It is the President of the US lying on a witness stand while under oath that had me outraged, as it should have outraged everyone. The man should should have been impeached and imprisoned for that offense.....not matter what the actual lie was about. I do find it a travesty that Bush pardoned Libby. When you are the President, you are going to be held to a higher standard and you should not be flaunting power in the face of the people who put you there. The last couple of months, I would have had gladly stood behind an mpeaching of Bush for pure incompetence. How can someone sit there and completely go against the will of an enormous majority of their citizens and boldly lie that it IS what they want? His ridiculous immigration policy push and this Libby fiasco has completely lost all support of the Republican still holding seats.....he is going to find them voting against him at every turn now as they try to distance themselves from the horrible decisions he is making.

I only hope that one of the candidates breaks from this Washington pure political bullshit in 2008. So far the only one I can see making a stand and distancing themselves from the retardation is Fred Thompson. If he can put even a shred of reality back into a Presidency (like ted Strickland has for the governorship of Ohio) then MAYBE things will get better for a few years.

[Zaelath]

Where as the Bush administration lying to you over and over again on just about everything, not a problem?

/shrug, I don't buy the whole "regardless of what he was lying about" bit, purely because I don't think anyone should have the right to compell anyone under oath to answer a question about sex. You have many "decency" protections in your law about what you have the right to ask in court; 5th ammendment, not being able to force spouses to testify, etc, I don't see how this is more than an oversight.

[Sylvus]

Coming up on almost 2 years now. The sad, sad part is that the Georgia DA is actually fighting the appeal, despite the fact the law it was based on is no longer in effect.

Genarlow Wilson was freed, hooray! Too bad it took two years, but it's a good step for justice.