This touched a bit of a nerve. Gay adoption??

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Voro, twisted my words into a nice little mathematical equation eh? Lets throw another twist in there.

1) you would not pick your own child to be gay
2) because there is a stigma placed on gays
3) therefore gay parents would place unfair stigmas on children they adopted
4) thus gay parents would be bad


Now the fact here is that there IS a stigma on gays in the world. What the minority of people think will never change that. It is kind of an enigma. You must have straight people in order for the human race to propogate. This would require that a majority of the people on the planet to be straight in order to survive. The majority of these people will never view homosexuality as normal, because they are no homosexual and cannot fathom feelings for same sex. It is not just the miniscule number of people on the vault that would agree with me. This is a much more liberal sampling of people than you would find than if you polled in the "real world". Yet 20 people other than myself and Krimson all say the same thing.

[ZZtheAssassin]

I meant some of the belief system is similar, if you had ever read the catholic bible and then the christian bible you would find many similarities. I was simply pointing this out.

[Aaeamdar]

BTW, Klaw, I assume, since you are such the follower of Leveticus, that you would never plow your feild with an Ox and and Ass, and would condem all that would? That you would never wear clothing of mixed fabric, and would comdem all that would? I further assume you do not cut your hair, nor shave your beard? Leviticus is chock full of gems like these, and yes, buried among them is the proclaimation that a man shall not lie with another ma as he would a woman (but lesbos are A-OK). Also found in Leviticus is a copiuos amount of prescribed animal sacrifices required before or after any munber of mundane tasks. I presume you must keep a large farm to keep up with your religious requirements flowing from Leveiticus.

[Jesalynn]

Stragi brought up a good issue though, the childs rights. Of course, in nature we don't get to "pick" our parents, though at times when we were younger we may have wished we could... hell I would kill to have been the daughter of Warren Buffet.

As for a child already born and needs a parent though you open a new discussion about a childs right to choose his parents, which I think should be factored into any adoption whether it be gay or straight couple adoption. I honestly don't know how the entire process works, being as I never thought about adoption. Do these kids live with the foster parents for a while before adopting? Or are they randomly picked up like a lost puppy at a pound and you just go in and say "wow that kid would look great with the curtains" and pick him/her up?

All told though, an unhappy child with no parents, forced to live in an orphanage or with several foster parents and with no stability would probably choose to be adopted by a stable home no matter if it were gay or straight. I think most children strive to be loved and to be stable and happy and if anyone can provide that, I think it should happen for them.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

This topic has gone way astray.

The fact that the parents are gay would only raise a more tolerable child of other peoples differences. It won't heighten the chance at the child growing up gay.

Like it was said earlier, being gay means you have a gentic defect that caused you to have a desire for the wrong sex.

Nothing you can do about it at all. It's no different that someone being born with a cleft lip. Shit happens.

Do I or anyone else have to accept gays? Nope. I think they are gentic freaks, no different than a circus freak in a carnival you pay $1 to see in a dark tent.

That being said, I will repeat what I said 97 replies ago...if they want to raise the unwanted children of the world...let them.

Ask the child if they would rather their gay parents or an orphanage.

[Sylvus]

You know 2 of the most notorius dictators were gay, Hitler and Julius Caesar. As well their were rumors that Joseph Stalin was gay.

While being gay in and of itself may or may not be wrong, the fact that god didnt create adam and steve plays a factor here. I, myself, am a christian, and was catholic with catholic upbringing.

You know who else was gay? All kinds of fantastic artists and musicians and peaceful people. They outnumber your 2 or 3 bad ones by about a billion to one over the course of history. I don't think Hitler's problem was that he was gay... I think it was that he was FUCKING CRAZY AS SHIT!

[kyoukan]

A noble effort by gay folks but kids need a mom and a dad.

Yes because every kid has the luxury of a mother and father in Adex Land.

[Aaeamdar]

The Stigma argument is crock. You'd never suggest a black couple should not be allowed to adopt (regardless of the color of the child) merely because blacks are subjected to greater prejudices than whites or because some Klan member might persecute them in the future. Yes, it is certainly true that that stigma is no longer as strong nor as prevelant today as it was in, say, 1950, but the point holds. Protecting a child from the stigma of being raised by gay parents is simply a codification of the problem - which, of corse, is the sigma itself.

[kyoukan]

You are opening more than a can of worms. People and animals are meant to be in a heterosexual pairing in order for breeding to even take place. This is nature...there is no denying it. I don't care how much the gay community wants it to be legislated, you CAN'T get pregnant from a guy fucking your ass. You CAN'T get pregnant no matter how many times that lesbian fists you. I am sorry that the laws of nature have prevalance in this court. I really do not hold anything against you for choosing this lifestyle. It is your choice. I could care less about what you do in the privacy of your home.

So impotent men and barren women don't have the rights to have a child either?

[Aaeamdar]

Like it was said earlier, being gay means you have a gentic defect that caused you to have a desire for the wrong sex.

Nothing you can do about it at all. It's no different that someone being born with a cleft lip. Shit happens.

Actually, at least in my case, that is not true. I have no trouble banging chicks, and when I do, I like it. I happen to be not nearly as hung up on all the sexual issue most people have, however, so I can enjoy sex with guys as well.

From an effectional standpoint, however, I have never been able to get past a large number of traits we regard as feminine, and as a result my relationships with women have been lucky to last more than a few weeks. Where as my current relationship with my boyfriend has lasted 13 years.

I cannot comment on whether there was something genetic about sexuality, generally, but I can be certain I could have been quite happy living the straight bachelor's life (and who knows, might have found a woman who did not annoy me to no end at some point), but I chose otherwise.

[Winnow]

I didn't bother to read the whole thread before this, but has anyone thought about it from the child's viewpoint? Think of the crap he'll have to put up with in school when people find out his parents are homosexual, that might end up making him resent his parents and homosexuals all together.

Dude...you're looking at it all wrong. What if he had two MILFs? He'd be the king at school. Everyone would want to come see his MILFs in action.

[Voronwë]

This is a much more liberal sampling of people than you would find than if you polled in the "real world". Yet 20 people other than myself and Krimson all say the same thing.

think Flamevault voted like 60% Republican if you are to believe our little poll. (which was hardly statistically accurate, etc...i'm just making an observation).

so i would suggest to you that there are quite a few politically conservative people who may not post a whole lot, but certainly read stuff here, and even vote on some topics.

how the Euros and Cannucks skew the political bias with their crazy communism is beyond me though!!!!

[Nick]

Whhhoooo gives a fuck, get with the fucking program, its 2002. Take some mushrooms and shut up.

[rhyae]

From personal experience, not conjecture, I worked for a lesbian for 5 years during and after college. She had a daughter my age. Turns out her ex husband was gay as well.
I always thought that was comical.
They fell in love, married, had a kid, realized they were both gay, and got divorced.
They raised their daughter, who despite claims stated in this thread about homo brain defects, was perfectly normal, hetero, married, etc.
Well, she was stupid, but thats a different thing altogether.
Back to topic, should gays/lesbians be allowed to adopt?
Yes, they are just as capable of raising happy children as anyone else.
Will some of the kids adopted by gay parents grow up to be fucked up? Oh sure. And they will blame it on the fact that they were adopted by gay parents.
Dont all of us fuck ups wish we had something like gay parents to blame our issues on?
But in reality, everyone chances at being happy/normal/non fucked up have nothing to do with our parents sexual preferences.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I happen to be not nearly as hung up on all the sexual issue most people have, however, so I can enjoy sex with guys as well.

Ummm...you're gay dude.

[Melrin_Specclaster]

Laugh, it's not ignorance. They do 'things' whatever they are are home in front of kids or in public. Some more than others. The fact remains it will/can confuse a young child.

[noel]

Laugh, it's not ignorance. They do 'things' whatever they are are home in front of kids or in public. Some more than others. The fact remains it will/can confuse a young child.

That's your opinion, based on your prejudice, not fact.

[ZZtheAssassin]

Actually that would make him bi-sexual midnyte, and really their is nothing wrong with that since its his choice and his life.

The lesbian women you all talk about being lesbians aren't lesbians at all, they are bi-sexual, if they were straight lesbians they wouldnt wanna bang a dude.

In any case the true stigma is that people are afraid that gay people will raise their children to be gay and not give them the choice. This is the issue we are really discussing its just being danced around.

I believe that raising your child to be the same way as you without giving him a choice is wrong, but being gay is not. Some of the nicest people I have ever known were gay. However just like any culture you have your asshole's. It goes from culture to culture , person to person. Everything is a choice and we have free will to decide for ourselves no?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Actually that would make him bi-sexual midnyte

Ummm nope. Once you have had a dick in your mouth....you're full blown officially gay.

There is gay and not gay.

You can make up all the different pretend categories you want, but there are only 2 real ones.

You either suck dick...or you do not suck dick.

[noel]

Actually that would make him bi-sexual midnyte

Ummm nope. Once you have had a dick in your mouth....you're full blown officially gay.

There is gay and not gay.

You can make up all the different pretend categories you want, but there are only 2 real ones.

You either suck dick...or you do not suck dick.

Thank you, Andrew 'Dice' Clay. You're adding so much to the discussion here with such witty banter.

There is such a thing as bisexual, and even asexual. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[Aaeamdar]

I think what Melrin is talking about is not sex. It is probably reasonable to assume that gay couples at home would in many cases mirror straight couples. As such, you are likely to see same sex kissing, snuggling, etc. in the home. What Melrin also seems to think is that confusion is a bad thing. Because, as we all know, young children are never confused unless they are confronted with same sex affectional activity.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Andrew "Dice" Clay does make a good point every now and then

[ZZtheAssassin]

I think what Melrin is talking about is not sex. It is probably reasonable to assume that gay couples at home would in many cases mirror straight couples. As such, you are likely to see same sex kissing, snuggling, etc. in the home. What Melrin also seems to think is that confusion is a bad thing. Because, as we all know, young children are never confused unless they are confronted with same sex affectional activity.

Well here's where the real topic at hand comes into play, a child mimic's what his / her parents do. For example, lets say your father is a real ladies man and you go out into town with him, we are gonna figure hes at the optimal impression age, you see and hear him use many tricks and you decide to memorize them and try them yourself. One day if you pay attention you will most likely end up OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS like your father in many respect's.

Now the thing about a child seeing a gay couple showing affection is it could give the child the idea they should be like that to.

The saying " We are the product of our peer's and our environment" is all to true. Children are all to impressionable so this really is a very delicate situation.

When you go and factor in the confusion of being a child then the fear it all becomes a big nasty situation. The child is torn between wanting to make his / her parents proud and doing what he wants to do. The fear of persecution for his preference's as he grow's older may cause him OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of undo harm during his most important of developmental phases.

[rhyae]

And displaying affection is a good thing. its normal.
No matter how unpalatable some people find it.
Most people dont get enough affection.
From traveling in other countries I've seen that men are a lot more comfortable with same sex affection, gay or straight, in most places than they are here in americahomophobia land.
Teaching a child to be loving and affectionate by example is a good thing.
I'm fairly sure that just watching same sex couples snuggling wont make you gay, heheeheh.

[ZZtheAssassin]

And displaying affection is a good thing. its normal.
No matter how unpalatable some people find it.
Most people dont get enough affection.
From traveling in other countries I've seen that men are a lot more comfortable with same sex affection, gay or straight, in most places than they are here in americahomophobia land.
Teaching a child to be loving and affectionate by example is a good thing.
I'm fairly sure that just watching same sex couples snuggling wont make you gay, heheeheh.

That's not what I mean Rhyae. Have any of you ever walked in on your parents having sex and wondered what the fuck they were doing? I know I did when I was little. Just think if this child walked in on his / her gay parents doing this, we'll also pretend the child is in an elementary level school, he'll see all the mom's and dad's together but yet he will be wondering why he / she has 2 dad's or 2 mom's. During this confusing and enlightening period for him / her he will be lacking something and won't quite understand why.

As he / she gets older these feeling's of confusion will only become worse until eventually if the child is tortured enough or torture's himself enough he begin's to feel the need to punish himself or lash out.

All in all the mounting confusion can lead to many different pyschological disorders, it really all depends on how the child handles it and how the child handles it depends on the parents and their interactions with the child.

So really their very well could be good gay parents and their very well could be bad. It all depends on what they teach the child and what the child learn's thru his / her interaction with the parents and his / her peer's.

[Fairweather Pure]

I'm fairly sure that just watching same sex couples snuggling wont make you gay, heheeheh.

I see hot lesbians making out and it makes me want to be a lesbian.

[kyoukan]

Andrew "Dice" Clay does make a good point every now and then

jesus you are a fucking tard.

[Aaeamdar]

I suspect, though have nothing I can cite to, that gays do not disproportionately come from gay homes, but who knows. Anyway, even assuming that being raised by gay parents did have a statistically significant shift relating to the homosexuality of the child, what does that mean? I mean, is there an actual desire to reduce the number of gay people in the world. Of course, the textual Levitican and I will have to agree to disagree and that is fine. If your point is something else, though, you'll need to elaborate.

[ZZtheAssassin]

And displaying affection is a good thing. its normal.
No matter how unpalatable some people find it.
Most people dont get enough affection.
From traveling in other countries I've seen that men are a lot more comfortable with same sex affection, gay or straight, in most places than they are here in americahomophobia land.
Teaching a child to be loving and affectionate by example is a good thing.
I'm fairly sure that just watching same sex couples snuggling wont make you gay, heheeheh.

That's not what I mean Rhyae. Have any of you ever walked in on your parents having sex and wondered what the fuck they were doing? I know I did when I was little. Just think if this child walked in on his / her gay parents doing this, we'll also pretend the child is in an elementary level school, he'll see all the mom's and dad's together but yet he will be wondering why he / she has 2 dad's or 2 mom's. During this confusing and enlightening period for him / her he will be lacking something and won't quite understand why.

As he / she gets older these feeling's of confusion will only become worse until eventually if the child is tortured enough or torture's himself enough he begin's to feel the need to punish himself or lash out.

All in all the mounting confusion can lead to many different pyschological disorders, it really all depends on how the child handles it and how the child handles it depends on the parents and their interactions with the child.

So really their very well could be good gay parents and their very well could be bad. It all depends on what they teach the child and what the child learn's thru his / her interaction with the parents and his / her peer's.

Forgot to add, another thing this situation is dependant upon is how the parent's handle the child in the event of being seen during intercourse or such and how they handle him / her upon confrontation.

If the child feel's the need to lie, it could be due to embarassment or fear of getting into trouble. If he / she has been in school for any amount of time and has seen the other mom's / dad's then he could very well believe that something is amiss here and the way he handles just this situation could impact him / her far into the future.

Like I said, all of this is pretty much strictly situational, so it's really hard to say. Nothing in this world is certain so this is just one of the way's the situation could pan out.

[rhyae]

You walked in on your parents having sex and were confused.
Thats normal. All kids are, or should be confused about sex until they are older.
They figure it out later, my barbie dolls werent 'doing it' right until I was 12.

If a child walks in on their gay parents having sex they will be just as confused. But then again, they will figure it out later.
Just like the rest of us.
Not being gay I'm not sure when a person figures out they prefer a certain sex over another. Whether its the around the same time straight kids get crushes on the opposite sex, or if they are born knowing.
A kid might see his same sex parents and be confused.
But I would guess umm 'conditioning' wont override natural sexual preference. Most kids arent going to grow up and say "Gosh I have to be gay cos I hate to let Mom and Mom down."
And I would be willing to bet that the more open minded gay couple will be more forthright about talking about and explaining sex to their child. And they wont shelter the kid from gay sex, like most hetero parents would. When my mom gave me the 'talk' she never mentioned lesbian sex. So didnt she leave something out?

[Kylere]

That was not Andrew Dice Clay, it was Sam Kinison

[Atokal]

bleh can't be bothered with this one.

[noel]

Umm no, it's on his double tape/CD set called, 'The Day the Laughter Died'. I'll bet you $500 if of real money I'm right.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Aranuil is right.

[ZZtheAssassin]

You walked in on your parents having sex and were confused.
Thats normal. All kids are, or should be confused about sex until they are older.
They figure it out later, my barbie dolls werent 'doing it' right until I was 12.

If a child walks in on their gay parents having sex they will be just as confused. But then again, they will figure it out later.
Just like the rest of us.
Not being gay I'm not sure when a person figures out they prefer a certain sex over another. Whether its the around the same time straight kids get crushes on the opposite sex, or if they are born knowing.
A kid might see his same sex parents and be confused.
But I would guess umm 'conditioning' wont override natural sexual preference. Most kids arent going to grow up and say "Gosh I have to be gay cos I hate to let Mom and Mom down."
And I would be willing to bet that the more open minded gay couple will be more forthright about talking about and explaining sex to their child. And they wont shelter the kid from gay sex, like most hetero parents would. When my mom gave me the 'talk' she never mentioned lesbian sex. So didnt she leave something out?

Growing up in the time we do now, she most likely believed you'd hear about it elsewhere. My father never gave me the talk, he just took me out to places with lots of women and gave me condoms when I turned 15. Only thing he said was go out and make the right choice, as in don't go out just to have sex or just in case you may happen to need them, he only wanted me to be responsible but gave me the condom's in the event that I chose to be irresponsible. That shows the right to make the choice for what I wanted to do or did not want to do.

No, no matter how you slice it, a child seeing thiat situation would have that in memory for life, most children gain their experiences from the impression's their parents put on them or the situations they are involved in with their parents. This ranges from anything. You allow the people you love to make an impression about and sometimes take some of the things they do and do them differently. This is part of maturing.

We learn from who?? We learn from our parents first, then we take some thing's in from our peers but it ALWAYS goes back to the parents as the chief source of knowledge outside of school.

[Aaeamdar]

I know some fine gay folks, but when they made their choice of life mates they also knew that one of the downsides is the inability to have kids of their own. Make yer choices and live with them I say.

Right. And likewise, when a hertosexual couple can't have kids because of a reproductive problem, when they then choose to stay together knowing they cannot have children of their own, that is just one of the downsides of their being together. They made their choice, now they should just live with it.

Further likewise, a heterosexual white couple is incapable of mating and producing, for example, an asian baby. That again, being the natural consequences of their choice to be together, that couple shoud also just live with it.

So, from your logic, we now need laws requiring proof of fertility prior to adoption. We also require laws forbidding cross-race adoption.

Did I miss something from your logic?

Edit: Too late, Toker. I already quoted you.

[ZZtheAssassin]

I suspect, though have nothing I can cite to, that gays do not disproportionately come from gay homes, but who knows. Anyway, even assuming that being raised by gay parents did have a statistically significant shift relating to the homosexuality of the child, what does that mean? I mean, is there an actual desire to reduce the number of gay people in the world. Of course, the textual Levitican and I will have to agree to disagree and that is fine. If your point is something else, though, you'll need to elaborate.

It doesn't matter what they come from as long as they got to make that choice. Whether your born with it or not, it depends on whether they had the choice to make it as they were growing up or not.

No matter what way you look at it, you dont just know your gay, you slowly realize it thru events and other experiences. The stories of waking up one day and just realizing your gay is possible but in most cases it doesnt work that way. You have to admit it to YOURSELF before it becomes reality.

[Aaeamdar]

Ok, ZZ. Now, even accepting what you just wrote, what does that have to do with anything?

[ZZtheAssassin]

I know some fine gay folks, but when they made their choice of life mates they also knew that one of the downsides is the inability to have kids of their own. Make yer choices and live with them I say.

Right. And likewise, when a hertosexual couple can't have kids because of a reproductive problem, when they then choose to stay together knowing they cannot have children of their own, that is just one of the downsides of their being together. They made their choice, now they should just live with it.

Further likewise, a heterosexual white couple is incapable of mating and producing, for example, an asian baby. That again, being the natural consequences of their choice to be together, that couple shoud also just live with it.

So, from your logic, we now need laws requiring proof of fertility prior to adoption. We also require laws forbidding cross-race adoption.

Did I miss something from your logic?

Edit: Too late, Toker. I already quoted you.

This is where I call you wrong Aaeamdar. They are opposite sex lovers and they can't have kids due to either the man having a low sperm count or possible prostate cancer in the past or the women having her tubes tied for any number of reasons or ovarian cancer.

Either way under normal circumstances THEY COULD have had kids but due to some problem they cannot. This is a different situation entirely and lumping it with people whose physiology is not equipped to having kids to those who are physically unable due to any number of those problems I listed and more is completely inaccurate, incorrect and wrong.

[Krimson Klaw]

I also hate polls about gay adoption.

[ZZtheAssassin]

What I'm getting at is that it could be problematic if the situations arise and they are handled wrong, or if the child gives in to the way some of modern society treats them for what they feel.

Persecution plays a huge part in our lives and it does take a toll on all of us, no matter what we say. Everything affects us growing up, everything has a lifelong impression on who we are to become. The knowledge we learn growing up is learned so that we can better it and teach our children better.

[Fairweather Pure]

No matter what way you look at it, you dont just know your gay, you slowly realize it thru events and other experiences. The stories of waking up one day and just realizing your gay is possible but in most cases it doesnt work that way. You have to admit it to YOURSELF before it becomes reality.

And you know this to be factual, how? I think you'e just talking out your ass and really have no clue what homosexuals go through in their lives.

[ZZtheAssassin]

No matter what way you look at it, you dont just know your gay, you slowly realize it thru events and other experiences. The stories of waking up one day and just realizing your gay is possible but in most cases it doesnt work that way. You have to admit it to YOURSELF before it becomes reality.

And you know this to be factual, how? I think you'e just talking out your ass and really have no clue what homosexuals go through in their lives.

I have a very good idea, and I can be wrong and right. Since all of this is strictly situational which I have mentioned acouple times.

The idea pops around for alittle while until finally it becomes a realization. Some people may have that realization by waking up one morning, but I will gaurantee you that for most it just kinda floats around for alittle while.

Ok Fairweather I'll bite, prove me wrong.

[ZZtheAssassin]

I also hate polls about gay adoption.

At this point I'm inclined to feel the same way.

[Aaeamdar]

Well, under "normal" circumastance I can have kids too. All I have to do is go fuck some chick enough times that she becomes pregant. Voila - child. There are no requirements that not do this outside the scope of a loving heterosexual relationship. There are no requirements that I stay with the woman who bore the child. In many states, I could even enforce a pre-coital contract forcing her to give up her parental rights.

It is all the same thing. Your struggle is in failing to admit that you find homosexualty more than simply abnormal. You are uncomforatable with the notion of same sex parenting, but you are finding it difficult to express in a fashion that does not come down to "gays are bad." You are also uncomfortable being honest about your moral judgements, so you can't just end the arguement with "gays are bad." Thus, you construct (or defend) irrational arguments based "Nature" or "the way things were meant to be" to justify otherwise apparently arbitrary restrictions.

When it comes down to it, if you think being gay is bad and you think a child being raised by gays might have a statistically significant increased chance at being gay, then just say it, and end the arguement.

[ZZtheAssassin]

Oh fuck it, yes I do sue me.

Look man, I'm not saying your not a good person, which you do seem to be a very fair one, but as well the fact of the matter still remains. According to my belief's being gay is pretty much technically wrong.

I did try to keep the religious bias out of my posts and provided evidence instead.

[Krimson Klaw]

being gay is bad.

[Aaeamdar]

Why the hatred of polls on gay adoption, Klaw. There is no such commandment in Leviticus, not even a requirement that you sacrifice a goat before or after participating in it. As it is one of the few things you can do with out sacrificing some aminal on an alter (as we all know how strictly you follow the Lord's commandments in Leviticus), I would think you'd love it.

[Krimson Klaw]

There is also no commandment that says Though shalt not fornicate, but it says not to in black and white.

Being gay is still bad, defending it is even worse.

edit-forgot to add my disclaimer....if you are not Christian, these comments do not apply,and if you love being gay, these comments also do not apply cause you are gonna do it anyway.

[ZZtheAssassin]

There is also no commandment that says Though shalt not fornicate, but it says not to in black and white.

Being gay is still bad, defending it is even worse.

edit-forgot to add my disclaimer....if you are not Christian, these comments do not apply.

I agree with this krimson, and I have probably made it worse by dancing around it, but I didn't wanna be to mean about it. They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.