oops? (london suspect shooting)

What do you think about the world?
User avatar
Zaelath
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4621
Joined: April 11, 2003, 5:53 am
Location: Canberra

Post by Zaelath »

Winnow wrote: What kind of logic is that? We're discussing a single case with well known recent events leading up to it.

With your lame argument, I could counter that people like to swim in the ocean even though it's not safe but after a shark attack, there are many less people in the water for awhile and it's probably not in a shark's best interest to be swimming around shore for the next few days.
Pretty sure your "counter" is on the same side of the argument. People have a visceral reaction to sharks that means they see them as the danger in swimming at the beach, when rip tides, box jellyfish (at least in QLD), and submerged rocks etc are far more dangerous.

Hunting down a "man killer" shark, or dog, it's considered acceptible to kill quite a few innocent animals in an effort to remove the danger, they're just animals. I don't see how that relates at all to the "collateral damage" of executing human beings on the street based solely on a profile and a puffy jacket.

Despite all the howling that this guy should have known better, it's a far cry between this incident and the Reservior Dogs story about the uniformed cop nearly blowing away the driver for reaching into the glove box for his registration instead of just doing what the cop that was telling him. And even in that case, you can see how an innocent could not realise how stupid he's being.
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
User avatar
Nick
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5711
Joined: July 4, 2002, 3:45 pm

Post by Nick »

Chidoro, your opinion of the Israel Palestine situation, seems to be so skewed and self serving that it really isn't worth discussing anyway. Good luck being a mindless bigot

Edit: Assuming Miir is right, please explain how it is so very innacurate of me to hold Israel responsible and in contempt of human rights in Palestine. Secondly, how is that a bad thing to defend someones right to freedom from a fucking blatant oppression.
It could be funny to hear your justification.

Thirdly, "ranting and raving" against the restriction of freedom, lies, murder and bullshit is much better than just metaphorically taking it up the ass and accepting it Winnow, you oft defeatist bastard.

Edit: Thanks Bubba, damn edits :twisted:
Last edited by Nick on July 27, 2005, 4:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
miir
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 11501
Joined: July 3, 2002, 3:06 pm
XBL Gamertag: miir1
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by miir »

Nick, I know for a fact that Chidoro is very knowledgable when it comes to the Israel/Palestine conflict

A mindless bigot, he is not.
I've got 99 problems and I'm not dealing with any of them - Lay-Z
User avatar
Bubba Grizz
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 6121
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:52 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin

Post by Bubba Grizz »

You have 2 "secondly"s. :twisted:
User avatar
Forthe
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1719
Joined: July 3, 2002, 4:15 pm
XBL Gamertag: Brutus709
Location: The Political Newf

Post by Forthe »

kyoukan wrote:
Farrel wrote:Im not sure how you consider it ethical to shoot a man in the back of the head while he's pinned even once.
because he might have been trying to detonate a bomb?

whoever shot him had to make a split decision. I would say he made the right one but people with 20/20 hindsight would probably disagree with that. what if was a bomb laden terrorist and while wrestling with the police he reached into his jacket and detonated it? then people would be on the forums saying why didn't the police just shoot the bastard in the face as soon as they were in range.
What bomb? They had no proof to indicate he was carrying a bomb, nor did they have any information indicating intent. I do not understand why, if they thought he was enough of a threat to justify executing him, they allowed him to ride the bus.

Police are not allowed to enter your residence without reasonable grounds. I would suggest being brown, wearing a jacket and living in an apartment building the police were watching gives them reasonable grounds to question him. Pumping 8 bullets into him after he was subdued based on the information they had is paranoid, something I expect from a common citizen not a professional.

You are crazy to give police the latitude to be so incompetent.
All posts are personal opinion.
My opinion may == || != my guild's.
"All spelling mistakes were not on purpose as I dont know shit ." - Torrkir
User avatar
Atokal
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1369
Joined: July 4, 2002, 12:23 am

Post by Atokal »

Forthe wrote:
kyoukan wrote:
Farrel wrote:Im not sure how you consider it ethical to shoot a man in the back of the head while he's pinned even once.
because he might have been trying to detonate a bomb?

whoever shot him had to make a split decision. I would say he made the right one but people with 20/20 hindsight would probably disagree with that. what if was a bomb laden terrorist and while wrestling with the police he reached into his jacket and detonated it? then people would be on the forums saying why didn't the police just shoot the bastard in the face as soon as they were in range.
What bomb? They had no proof to indicate he was carrying a bomb, nor did they have any information indicating intent. I do not understand why, if they thought he was enough of a threat to justify executing him, they allowed him to ride the bus.

Police are not allowed to enter your residence without reasonable grounds. I would suggest being brown, wearing a jacket and living in an apartment building the police were watching gives them reasonable grounds to question him. Pumping 8 bullets into him after he was subdued based on the information they had is paranoid, something I expect from a common citizen not a professional.

You are crazy to give police the latitude to be so incompetent.
You are a fucking idiot. I would rather give the police the latitude than a potential fucking terrorist. Think about this for a moment, if you were on the subway and this dude was fleeing police in a .... bah you are too stupid to understand.
Atokal
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli
User avatar
Nick
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5711
Joined: July 4, 2002, 3:45 pm

Post by Nick »

That isnt even the argument, because the guy was not a terrorist.

It is the precedent being set that is the issue.

This is one of the most divisive posts on VV in a good while, and I can honestly see where both sides are coming from bur frankly, I am with Forthe 100% on this one.
User avatar
Forthe
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1719
Joined: July 3, 2002, 4:15 pm
XBL Gamertag: Brutus709
Location: The Political Newf

Post by Forthe »

Atokal wrote:
Forthe wrote:
kyoukan wrote:
Farrel wrote:Im not sure how you consider it ethical to shoot a man in the back of the head while he's pinned even once.
because he might have been trying to detonate a bomb?

whoever shot him had to make a split decision. I would say he made the right one but people with 20/20 hindsight would probably disagree with that. what if was a bomb laden terrorist and while wrestling with the police he reached into his jacket and detonated it? then people would be on the forums saying why didn't the police just shoot the bastard in the face as soon as they were in range.
What bomb? They had no proof to indicate he was carrying a bomb, nor did they have any information indicating intent. I do not understand why, if they thought he was enough of a threat to justify executing him, they allowed him to ride the bus.

Police are not allowed to enter your residence without reasonable grounds. I would suggest being brown, wearing a jacket and living in an apartment building the police were watching gives them reasonable grounds to question him. Pumping 8 bullets into him after he was subdued based on the information they had is paranoid, something I expect from a common citizen not a professional.

You are crazy to give police the latitude to be so incompetent.
You are a fucking idiot. I would rather give the police the latitude than a potential fucking terrorist. Think about this for a moment, if you were on the subway and this dude was fleeing police in a .... bah you are too stupid to understand.
Yes a guy running away from plain clothes men carrying guns is definitive proof he is a suicide bomber. Police should definitely be allowed to execute anyone that looks like a "potential fucking terrorist".
All posts are personal opinion.
My opinion may == || != my guild's.
"All spelling mistakes were not on purpose as I dont know shit ." - Torrkir
User avatar
kyoukan
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8548
Joined: July 5, 2002, 3:33 am
Location: Vancouver

Post by kyoukan »

Forthe wrote:What bomb?
don't be a retard.

They had no proof to indicate he was carrying a bomb, nor did they have any information indicating intent.
What kind of proof do you require? A sign on his back that says TERRORIST? Maybe he has to run around cackling manically with a lit stick of dynamite in his hand?

I do not understand why, if they thought he was enough of a threat to justify executing him, they allowed him to ride the bus.

Police are not allowed to enter your residence without reasonable grounds. I would suggest being brown, wearing a jacket and living in an apartment building the police were watching gives them reasonable grounds to question him.
That's what they were going to do, until he ran. If they stopped him and heard his spanish accent and made him open up his coat he probably would have gone on with his day. But once you fail to comply with a law enforcement officer then all bets are off.

What if he was a terrorist, and the cop didn't react, thinking about how the police haters would have field day if he plugged an innocent man, and the dude blew himself up, taking the police and the train car with him?
Last edited by kyoukan on July 27, 2005, 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
kyoukan
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8548
Joined: July 5, 2002, 3:33 am
Location: Vancouver

Post by kyoukan »

Nick wrote:That isnt even the argument, because the guy was not a terrorist.
he was looking and acting like one. I would have shot his ass myself.
User avatar
Nick
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5711
Joined: July 4, 2002, 3:45 pm

Post by Nick »

But once you fail to comply with a law enforcement officer then all bets are off.
Not here they aren't, doesn't work that way (most of the time - thank fuck)

And we both know you're just itching to relieve some of that tension with a killing or two Kyou :P
User avatar
Winnow
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 27584
Joined: July 5, 2002, 1:56 pm
Location: A Special Place in Hell

Post by Winnow »

It was a potentially explosive situation. That's all that needs to be said.
User avatar
Forthe
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1719
Joined: July 3, 2002, 4:15 pm
XBL Gamertag: Brutus709
Location: The Political Newf

Post by Forthe »

kyoukan wrote:What kind of proof do you require? A sign on his back that says TERRORIST? Maybe he has to run around cackling manically with a lit stick of dynamite in his hand?
I don't know, maybe know his name perhaps? Or check out if he is carrying a rucksack? Brown guy running away from plain clothed men with guns != a terrorist.

kyoukan wrote:That's what they were going to do, until he ran. If they stopped him and heard his spanish accent and made him open up his coat he probably would have gone on with his day. But once you fail to comply with a law enforcement officer then all bets are off.

What if he was a terrorist, and the cop didn't react, thinking about how the police haters would have field day if he plugged an innocent man, and the dude blew himself up, taking the police and the train car with him?
Then tackle the bitch, which they did. 4 guys can make an attempt to secure his hands and check for explosives. If they new his name, suspected his background or had some real indication he was carrying a bomb I would support popping him in the head immediately. Without that they should have attempted to secure and search him before executing him.

Executing people without any proof is just as stupid as invading countries without proof.
All posts are personal opinion.
My opinion may == || != my guild's.
"All spelling mistakes were not on purpose as I dont know shit ." - Torrkir
User avatar
Kelshara
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4176
Joined: November 18, 2002, 10:44 am
Location: Norway

Post by Kelshara »

Atokal wrote:
Forthe wrote:
kyoukan wrote:
Farrel wrote:Im not sure how you consider it ethical to shoot a man in the back of the head while he's pinned even once.
because he might have been trying to detonate a bomb?

whoever shot him had to make a split decision. I would say he made the right one but people with 20/20 hindsight would probably disagree with that. what if was a bomb laden terrorist and while wrestling with the police he reached into his jacket and detonated it? then people would be on the forums saying why didn't the police just shoot the bastard in the face as soon as they were in range.
What bomb? They had no proof to indicate he was carrying a bomb, nor did they have any information indicating intent. I do not understand why, if they thought he was enough of a threat to justify executing him, they allowed him to ride the bus.

Police are not allowed to enter your residence without reasonable grounds. I would suggest being brown, wearing a jacket and living in an apartment building the police were watching gives them reasonable grounds to question him. Pumping 8 bullets into him after he was subdued based on the information they had is paranoid, something I expect from a common citizen not a professional.

You are crazy to give police the latitude to be so incompetent.
You are a fucking idiot. I would rather give the police the latitude than a potential fucking terrorist. Think about this for a moment, if you were on the subway and this dude was fleeing police in a .... bah you are too stupid to understand.
That makes us ("us" meaning the police and you and me) no better than them ('them" being bombers).
User avatar
kyoukan
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8548
Joined: July 5, 2002, 3:33 am
Location: Vancouver

Post by kyoukan »

Forthe wrote:Then tackle the bitch, which they did. 4 guys can make an attempt to secure his hands and check for explosives.
so you think the police had him completely pinned and helpless without any free hands and a police officer just walked up to him and executed him?
User avatar
Tyek
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2288
Joined: December 9, 2002, 5:52 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Tyekk
PSN ID: Tyek
Location: UCLA and Notre Dame

Post by Tyek »

Wow Forthe it is that simple? I bet if they did not kill him you would still be bitching that they targeted him because he is brown. Stop trying to act like this was a simple mistake. It took a ton of variables to get to this point and I bet if you were the cop on top of him in that situation you would have done the same thing they did. It is easy to sit in front of a computer and harp on how they should have known better, but put yourself in that situation.

If the guy stops, puts his hands up and complies with officers he would be at home tonight drinking a pint of beer. That is the only simple part of this situation. (Oh yeah and you would be screaming racism).
When I was younger, I used to think that the world was doing it to me and that the world owes me some thing…When you're a teeny bopper, that's what you think. I'm 40 now, I don't think that anymore, because I found out it doesn't f--king work. One has to go through that. For the people who even bother to go through that, most assholes just accept what it is anyway and get on with it." - John Lennon
User avatar
Nick
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5711
Joined: July 4, 2002, 3:45 pm

Post by Nick »

Well according to the eyewitness accounts I have heard......yes.

In so far as he was jumped and held and shot, all in quick succession.

And it was 8 shots, not 5.


8...ffs.
Demags
Gets Around
Gets Around
Posts: 91
Joined: July 4, 2002, 12:21 am
Location: Milford, MI

Post by Demags »

When you are trained in the use of firearms and deadly force you are taught to fire and continue firing until you feel the target is no longer a threat. If the officer was close enough to pump rounds into his head he was well within the lethal range of even a small explosive belt or vest, that makes ANY struggling or even twitching a potential threat.

Seeing as they didnt know whether he was rigged with those explosives I can understand why they shot so many times. Its a shame an innocent died, but you run from the police you take your chances, regardless of whether the police normally carry guns or not.

Demags
User avatar
Forthe
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1719
Joined: July 3, 2002, 4:15 pm
XBL Gamertag: Brutus709
Location: The Political Newf

Post by Forthe »

kyoukan wrote:
Forthe wrote:Then tackle the bitch, which they did. 4 guys can make an attempt to secure his hands and check for explosives.
so you think the police had him completely pinned and helpless without any free hands and a police officer just walked up to him and executed him?
3 pinners, 1 shooter. How long would it take 4 individuals to either immobilize, knock out, or search a person well enough to establish he is not carrying around a substantial amount of explosives. With some kind of proof to support suspicion of a bomb I agree with shooting him, without that proof I do not.
All posts are personal opinion.
My opinion may == || != my guild's.
"All spelling mistakes were not on purpose as I dont know shit ." - Torrkir
User avatar
Forthe
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1719
Joined: July 3, 2002, 4:15 pm
XBL Gamertag: Brutus709
Location: The Political Newf

Post by Forthe »

Tyek wrote:Wow Forthe it is that simple? I bet if they did not kill him you would still be bitching that they targeted him because he is brown. Stop trying to act like this was a simple mistake. It took a ton of variables to get to this point and I bet if you were the cop on top of him in that situation you would have done the same thing they did. It is easy to sit in front of a computer and harp on how they should have known better, but put yourself in that situation.
Yeah the only people that should be able to determine acceptable police behavior are the police. Police states rule!
Tyek wrote:If the guy stops, puts his hands up and complies with officers he would be at home tonight drinking a pint of beer. That is the only simple part of this situation. (Oh yeah and you would be screaming racism).
If the cops didn't put 8 bullets into him he'd be doing the same or being deported.

Screaming rascism? WTF?
All posts are personal opinion.
My opinion may == || != my guild's.
"All spelling mistakes were not on purpose as I dont know shit ." - Torrkir
User avatar
Tyek
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2288
Joined: December 9, 2002, 5:52 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Tyekk
PSN ID: Tyek
Location: UCLA and Notre Dame

Post by Tyek »

If he was there on a expired Visa then maybe he should be deported. He would still be alive though.

I never stated a plolice state is the only option, I stated that in that situation you would most likely have done the same thing. It was a tragedy, but one that could have been avoided if the guy had just stopped. He started the chain of actions that led to this.

And as for knocking him out, How the hell would you know where the trigger would be? maybe it is already in his hands and pinning him would do nothing. They made a decision, unfortunately the wrong one, but as someone stated if this guy was a terrorist the police would be getting medals.

Ok on the racism thing maybe I was a bit strong on you, I apologize. The whole thread started with Nick and a few others implying it was racism.
When I was younger, I used to think that the world was doing it to me and that the world owes me some thing…When you're a teeny bopper, that's what you think. I'm 40 now, I don't think that anymore, because I found out it doesn't f--king work. One has to go through that. For the people who even bother to go through that, most assholes just accept what it is anyway and get on with it." - John Lennon
User avatar
Nick
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5711
Joined: July 4, 2002, 3:45 pm

Post by Nick »

Um ...no, there is a difference between racism and racial profiling.

I don't think I mentioned the word racism before this post in fact. Maybe I did, I have been drunk a lot this last week. :shock:
Sueven
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 3200
Joined: July 22, 2002, 12:36 pm

Post by Sueven »

Nick wrote:Welcome to England, where it is now A OK to shoot brown people 5 times in the head dead who haven't done anything and aren't carrying any weapons.
Maybe you were crying "racial profiling" instead of crying "racism," but I surely wouldn't have interpreted this statement in that manner.
User avatar
Nick
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5711
Joined: July 4, 2002, 3:45 pm

Post by Nick »

Well sorry, it was foolish to assume someone might bother to educate themselves on a country outside the USA where racial profiling is now (more than ever) a mainstream issue. 'Percieve' it in whatever way you want, what happened happened.

Not to mention, that comment is pretty much agreed on most of you by the looks of it (as long he looks like a terrorist).

Edit: I'm too kind.
Sueven
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 3200
Joined: July 22, 2002, 12:36 pm

Post by Sueven »

I honestly don't know what the first sentence of your reply meant, so I'm not sure how to respond.

You stated that this incident shows that it is now OK to shoot brown people in the head in England. I'm amazed that you don't seem to think that this statement implies that the policy/government/society that has made it OK to shoot brown people in the head is racist. Clearly it has to do with racial profiling as well, but it's not like you can easily separate the two.

I'm going to try to deconstruct your first sentence so I can grasp your meaning. Let me know if I'm right.
Well sorry, it was foolish to assume someone might bother to educate themselves on a country outside the USA where racial profiling is now (more than ever) a mainstream issue.
Do you mean that it was foolish to assume that I had bothered to educate myself about England, in which racial profiling is now more than ever a mainstream issue? If so, what the fuck does that mean?
User avatar
Farrel
Gets Around
Gets Around
Posts: 104
Joined: July 4, 2004, 1:59 pm
Location: orlando/auburn

Post by Farrel »

kyoukan wrote:
Farrel wrote:Im not sure how you consider it ethical to shoot a man in the back of the head while he's pinned even once.
because he might have been trying to detonate a bomb?

whoever shot him had to make a split decision. I would say he made the right one but people with 20/20 hindsight would probably disagree with that. what if was a bomb laden terrorist and while wrestling with the police he reached into his jacket and detonated it? then people would be on the forums saying why didn't the police just shoot the bastard in the face as soon as they were in range.
ill try to rephrase here. I understand the police did what they felt they needed to do in order to prevent another catastrophe there. but there are at least a dozen other ways to prevent a man from reaching into his jacket, while hes stomach down, four or so men on him. I know the officers know this because theyre trained to use deadly force as a defensive and/or last resort, which is probably why uniformed officers dont carry firearms there. so at least one pop to the back of the head is enough to kill, if not...severely incapicitate the man. they also could have aimed for his upperarms, rendering them unusual. four shots in each would have more than done the trick. I suppose my point here is that there were and are alternatives to killing a foolish suspect and following the contraversy this has sparked, Im hoping theyve decided to look into this as well.

I believe brazilians speak portugese, btw.
Sabek
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1702
Joined: July 8, 2002, 4:31 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: sabek
Location: Columbus, Oh

Post by Sabek »

Forthe wrote:
kyoukan wrote:
Forthe wrote:Then tackle the bitch, which they did. 4 guys can make an attempt to secure his hands and check for explosives.
so you think the police had him completely pinned and helpless without any free hands and a police officer just walked up to him and executed him?
3 pinners, 1 shooter. How long would it take 4 individuals to either immobilize, knock out, or search a person well enough to establish he is not carrying around a substantial amount of explosives. With some kind of proof to support suspicion of a bomb I agree with shooting him, without that proof I do not.
And how long would it take said suspect to dentonate a bomb?
Quicker than it would take to immobilize him I would guess.
Sabek
Just Sabek
Image
User avatar
Zaelath
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4621
Joined: April 11, 2003, 5:53 am
Location: Canberra

Post by Zaelath »

How do you know the trigger isn't a dead-man switch? Hell, if I was going to do something as crazy as suicide bombing, I wouldn't have a little thing like a controlled expansion round severing my spinal cord stop me.
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
User avatar
Kelshara
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4176
Joined: November 18, 2002, 10:44 am
Location: Norway

Post by Kelshara »

Which again brings up the point: If he had a bomb he could very likely have a dead man's switch. Why then let him get don to the platform and onto a train if you were going to use deadly force? That would risk more deaths.
User avatar
Nick
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5711
Joined: July 4, 2002, 3:45 pm

Post by Nick »

Sueven, feel free to argue semantics with yourself all day and miss the point.

The fact is, coloured people in London are now walking around in fear of wearing bags, or running to catch trains. This is, as I just said, a fucking fact. It is not an acceptable one either, try and stick to what's relevant and you may start understanding something.

I'd say you can call it whatever the fuck you want, racism, racial profiling, whatever, it is a fucking disgrace, and a proof (if anymore was needed) of an increasingly patranoid discriminatory police.

For example, my friend (born in Ireland, parents are Turkish) got stopped and searched for (get this) - WALKING PAST THE US EMBASSY ! on his way to work.

This is a degree educated placid vegetarian who has never once hurt a fly, whereas I can walk right past it looking like a scruffy angry bastard without hassle any day of the week.

Semantics? Yeah, that's the fucking issue here Sueven....... :roll:
User avatar
Tyek
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2288
Joined: December 9, 2002, 5:52 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Tyekk
PSN ID: Tyek
Location: UCLA and Notre Dame

Post by Tyek »

If you had said "where it is now ok to stop brown people for no reason" then that is racial profiling. What you said implied racism. As for racial profiling, again the terrorists are the reason for this. If the killers were middle age white women, then guess who would be targeted by police. I am not saying it is right or wrong, just a fact.

Radical Muslims come from every nationality, color and type so it is not smart to profile this way, but I was on a flight a while back and they were doing the random checks at the gate. The security guy locks onto the area of the line I am at and I know I am going to have to go through a second check. He walks up and pulls a 90 year old lady out of the line and makes her take off her shoes, stand up palms out and goes through her stuff. While I understand it was a random check, I think he could probably take a close look and see she was 90 years old and the least likely threat in line. So there has to be some sense to these checks, not completely random checks.
When I was younger, I used to think that the world was doing it to me and that the world owes me some thing…When you're a teeny bopper, that's what you think. I'm 40 now, I don't think that anymore, because I found out it doesn't f--king work. One has to go through that. For the people who even bother to go through that, most assholes just accept what it is anyway and get on with it." - John Lennon
User avatar
kyoukan
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8548
Joined: July 5, 2002, 3:33 am
Location: Vancouver

Post by kyoukan »

Nick wrote:Sueven, feel free to argue semantics with yourself all day and miss the point.

The fact is, coloured people in London are now walking around in fear of wearing bags, or running to catch trains. This is, as I just said, a fucking fact.
the police are rampaging around shooting any brown person with a bag now? why wasn't this on BBC news?
User avatar
nobody
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1205
Joined: April 2, 2004, 8:37 pm
Location: neither here nor there
Contact:

Post by nobody »

what's this about brown bagging?
My goal is to live forever. So far so good.
The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. - Benjamin Franklin

خودتان را بگای
User avatar
Thess
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1033
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:34 am
Location: Connecticut

Post by Thess »

Wearing bags?
User avatar
Nick
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5711
Joined: July 4, 2002, 3:45 pm

Post by Nick »

Yeah Kyoukan because that's what I said :roll:

What has been on the news is the perspective of people in London claiming exactly what I posted.

:)
User avatar
masteen
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8197
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:40 pm
Gender: Mangina
Location: Florida
Contact:

Post by masteen »

I just don't have much sympathy for Mr. My-visa-expired-so-I'll-just-run-from-the-cops. He WAS a criminal, he acted like a criminal, and the police dealt with him like they would any other criminal.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
User avatar
Forthe
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1719
Joined: July 3, 2002, 4:15 pm
XBL Gamertag: Brutus709
Location: The Political Newf

Post by Forthe »

masteen wrote:I just don't have much sympathy for Mr. My-visa-expired-so-I'll-just-run-from-the-cops. He WAS a criminal, he acted like a criminal, and the police dealt with him like they would any other criminal.
So any criminal should face summary execution by the judge and jury police force? Fear has really fucked up your sense of justice.
All posts are personal opinion.
My opinion may == || != my guild's.
"All spelling mistakes were not on purpose as I dont know shit ." - Torrkir
User avatar
Nick
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5711
Joined: July 4, 2002, 3:45 pm

Post by Nick »

and the police dealt with him like they would any other criminal.
:? Nooooo Masteen
User avatar
miir
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 11501
Joined: July 3, 2002, 3:06 pm
XBL Gamertag: miir1
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by miir »

masteen wrote:I just don't have much sympathy for Mr. My-visa-expired-so-I'll-just-run-from-the-cops. He WAS a criminal, he acted like a criminal, and the police dealt with him like they would any other criminal.
Um no.
I've got 99 problems and I'm not dealing with any of them - Lay-Z
User avatar
Sylvus
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7033
Joined: July 10, 2002, 11:10 am
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: mp72
Location: A², MI
Contact:

Post by Sylvus »

It is unknown whether the police had properly identified themselves to this man, and it is arguable whether shooting to kill was the proper course of action. I can see this issue from both sides, several shots to the head seems excessive but I can't say I would be able to keep my finger off the trigger if I were a policeman in london who had just seen multiple bombs go off or attempt to be set off on two different days in the last 2 weeks and I thought that this "perp" was trying to set off more.

Let's assume for my following question that the police had properly identified themselves. Just for the sake of clarification, what do you think someone who is being pursued by officers (particularly when the events of the previous 2 weeks had just happened) and leads them on a chase should expect? I pose this mostly to Nick, Miir, and Forthe. If you are fleeing from the police, who have told you to stop and you do not, should you expect that they should just chase you until they catch you or you get away, or is it reasonable to assume that they might shoot you?
"It's like these guys take pride in being ignorant." - Barack Obama

Go Blue!
User avatar
miir
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 11501
Joined: July 3, 2002, 3:06 pm
XBL Gamertag: miir1
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by miir »

If you are fleeing from the police, who have told you to stop and you do not, should you expect that they should just chase you until they catch you or you get away, or is it reasonable to assume that they might shoot you?
I think if someone flees from the police, they should not have to worry about getting shot in the back of the skull after they have been apprehended.
I've got 99 problems and I'm not dealing with any of them - Lay-Z
Sueven
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 3200
Joined: July 22, 2002, 12:36 pm

Post by Sueven »

Nick wrote:Um ...no, there is a difference between racism and racial profiling.
I wasn't the one who brought up the semantics, sir. Nice distraction though.
User avatar
Nick
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5711
Joined: July 4, 2002, 3:45 pm

Post by Nick »

People run from the police every day all over the world and don't get shot.

Also, as Miir correctly stated, after being apprehended they certainly do not expect to be shot in the skull 7 times and once in the shoulder (the shoulder shot from point blank range also pretty much dismisses the theory of "avoiding the body in case of explosives")

In short, this was a massive fuck up, and I don't think it is the direction the UK police should be taking when trying to capture alleged terrorists. (Notice the alleged, which is essentially a shoot to kill policy that shits right over the "innocent until proven guilty" assumption we have lived by for .... how long? Ages anyway)

Why do I disagree with the murder of people the police suspect? Well, let's look at the results.

So far, one fatal killing by the police.

Terrorists killed = 0, innocents killed = 1

Forgive me for thinking this doesn't bode well for the future safety of the Capital.
2 million people a day use the underground, taking a potshot at some random when you are paranoid he is a terrorist and after you have caught him is completely unjustifiable, no matter what anyone happens to say here.

Edit: Sueven, do you have a point at all?
User avatar
Bubba Grizz
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 6121
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:52 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin

Post by Bubba Grizz »

How much time was it between the time he was "pinned" and the gun fire? I mean did the cop stop and have a smoke before he pulled the trigger? Whose definition of "pinned" are we going by? Did the guy struggle like a Rodney King?
Sueven
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 3200
Joined: July 22, 2002, 12:36 pm

Post by Sueven »

Yes. I have been defending Tyek's contention that:
Tyek wrote:The whole thread started with Nick and a few others implying it was racism.
To which you responded:
Nick wrote:Um ...no, there is a difference between racism and racial profiling.
I disagree with your statement and have been demonstrating why. It's very simple.

The reason I have been discussing this as opposed to other aspects of the case is because I don't have a whole lot to add to the discussion until we know more facts about the incident.

Note that I began discussing this not out of some bizarre desire to argue trivial points, but because you brought up the distinction.
User avatar
Animalor
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5902
Joined: July 8, 2002, 12:03 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Anirask
PSN ID: Anirask
Location: Canada

Post by Animalor »

The Guardian has this article up on their website. Not exactly sure if the paper's journalistic integrity however read on.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondo ... 13,00.html
Sabek
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1702
Joined: July 8, 2002, 4:31 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: sabek
Location: Columbus, Oh

Post by Sabek »

"My cousin was an honest and hard working person," said Ms Figueiredo
Who just happened to be in the country illegally. That's pretty honest.
Sabek
Just Sabek
Image
User avatar
Nick
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5711
Joined: July 4, 2002, 3:45 pm

Post by Nick »

I wouldn't class someone as dishonest for "being in a country illegally".

Then again, I believe (absurdly enough) that we live in a spherical world owned by all of us collectively, and not just some random governments that gets something like 10% of the popular vote - ala Britain.

Illegal workers trying to earn a living does not make them dishonest. Then again, I would say fuck the state before giving a shit whether I was there "legally" or not, we don't officially have inner and outer parties JUST yet.

Or is it really that black and white to you?

Edit: I should have not assumed you were used to my explosive style regarding reactionary issues such as this. That is in fact a fault of mine due to anger at the loss of innocent life (or "crying" in your charmed language). To be perfectly honest though, racial profiling is intrinsically racist.

Animalor, nice article. Guardian isn't a paper I would read often, but if what is being claimed is true then it even further nullifies any legitimacy (ridiculous legitimacy is even mentioned in this topic tbh) for the 8 bullets.
Sabek
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1702
Joined: July 8, 2002, 4:31 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: sabek
Location: Columbus, Oh

Post by Sabek »

Nick I don't think you get my position on this.

I am not in anyway saying that him dieing is a good thing, or "Great they wacked another brown skinned person. AWESOME!".

It is a tradgedy that the guy died, but given the current climate of things right now he picked the the wrong time to run away into a subway.

To the point of the police being judge, jury, and executioner they were given that power by the higher ups. You can't blame the police involved for proceeding to deal with a percieved threat in the maner that they were instructed to.

Everyone who is up in arms about this should have been up in arms as soon as the policy to shoot to kill was put in place. If you wait until someone is shot to be outraged you have pretty much shut the barn door after the horse is already out.
Sabek
Just Sabek
Image
User avatar
masteen
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8197
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:40 pm
Gender: Mangina
Location: Florida
Contact:

Post by masteen »

In this crazy spherical world, we have laws. Those who break the laws are criminals. This is a black and white issue.

While I do recognize that there are degrees of criminality with rape and murder at one end and speeding at the other, trying to say this guy was just a good ole boy, never meanin no harm does not change the fact that he was breaking the law EVERY DAY simply by being there. Clearly, he knew this too, which is why he ran from the cops.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
Post Reply