Scientists Recover T. Rex Soft Tissue
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Sabek
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The simple answer to this is faith.Lohrno wrote:So basically Adex you believe Satan created the other religions to blind people to Jesus' life, is that correct? The god you worship is the real one because the rest are creations of Satan?
If that's the case then what makes you think that say Christianity was a creation of Satan and the Jewish or Islam one is the real God? They might say the same thing...
Many others would say they opened themselves up to Allah or the Jewish God, and it filled them up like you described. Your experience is not unique... With that in mind, what makes you feel that you are right and they are wrong?
PS: I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I would just like to know because many people say the same things...Consider this a philosophical discussion.
When we all die we will find out what the "right" answers are, but until that point no one on the earth can know for sure unless they have faith.
I have faith that I made the right choice.
Sabek
Just Sabek
Just Sabek
But how do you know? Many others also have faith they made the right choice and feel the same way you do...Sabek wrote: The simple answer to this is faith.
When we all die we will find out what the "right" answers are, but until that point no one on the earth can know for sure unless they have faith.
I have faith that I made the right choice.
well in the absence of mass suicide to settle this convesation, we are left to make deductions based on the information that is present to us individually.
I did have an interesting conversation with my father-in-law about this recently. And for reference he is a catholic who goes to mass at least once a week, and has done so his entire life. His religion is intertwined with his culture since he is an Irish native. One thing that he thought was particularly strange about the way Christianity is practiced is that you have to get on your knees and pray to God. As the father of four children himself, he asked what kind of father would want his children to subjugate themselves to him in such a fashion? Obviously, the metaphorical sense of fatherhood here, but it is a metaphor that Christianity claims.
interestingly, both my mother and father and law think it is pretty unlikely that God exists, but i guarantee you if we hadn't had my daughter baptized in a Catholic church they would have kidnapped her and had it done!
A lot of the problem that non-religious people have with religious people in the US, is that politics and religion are intertwined here (*hint hint* they have been for thousands of years - becauses Religion is the original political structure - shamans, pharaohs, etc the State was in communication with God) to a pretty annoying extent.
The irony of it is the people who claim to be the victems of the "culture war" are the only ones fighting it.
I did have an interesting conversation with my father-in-law about this recently. And for reference he is a catholic who goes to mass at least once a week, and has done so his entire life. His religion is intertwined with his culture since he is an Irish native. One thing that he thought was particularly strange about the way Christianity is practiced is that you have to get on your knees and pray to God. As the father of four children himself, he asked what kind of father would want his children to subjugate themselves to him in such a fashion? Obviously, the metaphorical sense of fatherhood here, but it is a metaphor that Christianity claims.
interestingly, both my mother and father and law think it is pretty unlikely that God exists, but i guarantee you if we hadn't had my daughter baptized in a Catholic church they would have kidnapped her and had it done!
A lot of the problem that non-religious people have with religious people in the US, is that politics and religion are intertwined here (*hint hint* they have been for thousands of years - becauses Religion is the original political structure - shamans, pharaohs, etc the State was in communication with God) to a pretty annoying extent.
The irony of it is the people who claim to be the victems of the "culture war" are the only ones fighting it.
Aye...I can understand that stance..."I don't think it matters which, so long as you believe..."cid wrote:All that matters is ,"I have faith that I made the right choice." For themselves.
But I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind "My god is the right one and everyone else is deluding themselves."
there is not a reasonable response to that, so don't wait to long.
i dont say that to slight any person from any particular religion, but all religions have varying degrees of "faith" required to accept their version of the structure of nature.
so at some level you are going to have to put the various myths/prophesies/revelations side by side and say which one has the most documentation.
Regardless of what conclusion you come to, i dont think you'll come any closer to a more direct source of information than exists in Islam. My understanding is that Muhammed himself wrote the Koran. Being a prophet, he was given the information directly from God. He also wrote the Koran in Arabic , though i'm sure a much different version of Arabic than is spoken today.
Compare that to Christianity. The Gospels were written 60-90 years after the death of Jesus, so at least one or two generations of word of mouth. I don't know if they were written in Aramaic, Hebrew, or Greek. The Bible was not compiled until around 400 AD if I understand correctly.
The Hebrew myths were told by word of mouth for hundreds of years until around 800 BC. The various additions to that tradition in the following years were written down closer to the historical events they chronicalled. But the core of that, the Torah (the Pentateuch to Christians - 5 books) was believed to be largely the work of Moses and that was passed orrally for hundreds of years.
All religions from crazy cults that worship spacemen to Buddhism have individuals that will testify that they have had powerful revelations, etc. So in that regard, i'm not sure how you can weigh any of that against each other. I think we all know to ignore the spaceman thing, but how do you differentiate between a professional, educated, religious Hindu and a professional, educated, religious Christian in terms of which one of these individuals personal emotions about the nature of the divine is correct?
I'm not sure you can.
If you want to do raw numbers of humans who tend to favor one view of the world verses another, again Islam will come in ahead.
Perhaps a strike against Islam is that it is the word of one man, as opposed to the Gospels which are alledgedly 4 independent accounts of one man's actions. But again, fundamentally it boils down to one man, Jesus, and what he taught.
Perhaps the biggest reason for the decrease in "steps" between the 3 major religions sharing roots in Palestine is the time that passed between the events. For instance, maybe Jesus never even learned how to write. 700 years later though, writing was much more common especially considering the technological power of Muhammed's culture at the time. And the Jews basically were enslaved and didnt have a real country for hundreds of years, so that explains the Hebrew traditions.
i dont say that to slight any person from any particular religion, but all religions have varying degrees of "faith" required to accept their version of the structure of nature.
so at some level you are going to have to put the various myths/prophesies/revelations side by side and say which one has the most documentation.
Regardless of what conclusion you come to, i dont think you'll come any closer to a more direct source of information than exists in Islam. My understanding is that Muhammed himself wrote the Koran. Being a prophet, he was given the information directly from God. He also wrote the Koran in Arabic , though i'm sure a much different version of Arabic than is spoken today.
Compare that to Christianity. The Gospels were written 60-90 years after the death of Jesus, so at least one or two generations of word of mouth. I don't know if they were written in Aramaic, Hebrew, or Greek. The Bible was not compiled until around 400 AD if I understand correctly.
The Hebrew myths were told by word of mouth for hundreds of years until around 800 BC. The various additions to that tradition in the following years were written down closer to the historical events they chronicalled. But the core of that, the Torah (the Pentateuch to Christians - 5 books) was believed to be largely the work of Moses and that was passed orrally for hundreds of years.
All religions from crazy cults that worship spacemen to Buddhism have individuals that will testify that they have had powerful revelations, etc. So in that regard, i'm not sure how you can weigh any of that against each other. I think we all know to ignore the spaceman thing, but how do you differentiate between a professional, educated, religious Hindu and a professional, educated, religious Christian in terms of which one of these individuals personal emotions about the nature of the divine is correct?
I'm not sure you can.
If you want to do raw numbers of humans who tend to favor one view of the world verses another, again Islam will come in ahead.
Perhaps a strike against Islam is that it is the word of one man, as opposed to the Gospels which are alledgedly 4 independent accounts of one man's actions. But again, fundamentally it boils down to one man, Jesus, and what he taught.
Perhaps the biggest reason for the decrease in "steps" between the 3 major religions sharing roots in Palestine is the time that passed between the events. For instance, maybe Jesus never even learned how to write. 700 years later though, writing was much more common especially considering the technological power of Muhammed's culture at the time. And the Jews basically were enslaved and didnt have a real country for hundreds of years, so that explains the Hebrew traditions.
I don't know about that Voro,Voronwë wrote: All religions from crazy cults that worship spacemen to Buddhism have individuals that will testify that they have had powerful revelations, etc. So in that regard, i'm not sure how you can weigh any of that against each other. I think we all know to ignore the spaceman thing,
If I was forced to choose something to believe in or have my balls chopped off, I'd go for the spaceman thing over any other religious theme.
As it stands, all religious revelations, from taking the word of jesus to someome that was told of a new faith by a talking poodle, should hold equal weight as none of them can be verified.
that was more or less what i was trying to get at.
it is difficult to weight the accuracy of one vs. the other. In fact, the greatest determinant in what your religion will be is of course the religion you were born into. So it is quite likely that the majority of 'religious identity' has more to do with associating certain emotional experiences within the context of a religious framework and that of course is determined by what culture you are raised into as a child.
it is difficult to weight the accuracy of one vs. the other. In fact, the greatest determinant in what your religion will be is of course the religion you were born into. So it is quite likely that the majority of 'religious identity' has more to do with associating certain emotional experiences within the context of a religious framework and that of course is determined by what culture you are raised into as a child.
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Sabek
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One thing on this Voro, please do not take the ritualistic visions of cathlocism and brush them across the entire landscape of Christianity. I am a Christian, I am not a Catholic. The tenets of Catholicism are quite different than Protestants. I have never once been asked to get on my knees to pray to God. As a matter of fact, praying in my church is portrayed more as sitting on your fathers lap and having a conversation with him.Voronwë wrote:well in the absence of mass suicide to settle this convesation, we are left to make deductions based on the information that is present to us individually.
I did have an interesting conversation with my father-in-law about this recently. And for reference he is a catholic who goes to mass at least once a week, and has done so his entire life. His religion is intertwined with his culture since he is an Irish native. One thing that he thought was particularly strange about the way Christianity is practiced is that you have to get on your knees and pray to God. As the father of four children himself, he asked what kind of father would want his children to subjugate themselves to him in such a fashion? Obviously, the metaphorical sense of fatherhood here, but it is a metaphor that Christianity claims.
interestingly, both my mother and father and law think it is pretty unlikely that God exists, but i guarantee you if we hadn't had my daughter baptized in a Catholic church they would have kidnapped her and had it done!
A lot of the problem that non-religious people have with religious people in the US, is that politics and religion are intertwined here (*hint hint* they have been for thousands of years - becauses Religion is the original political structure - shamans, pharaohs, etc the State was in communication with God) to a pretty annoying extent.
The irony of it is the people who claim to be the victems of the "culture war" are the only ones fighting it.
Christianity is about having a meaningful personal relationship with God the father, not hiding in fear of some almighty being that is going smite you when you sin.
Everyone sins, and everyone will sin. Hence the need for Jesus to pay for our sins.
Last edited by Sabek on March 28, 2005, 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sabek
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Just Sabek
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Sabek
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That's faith.Lohrno wrote:But how do you know? Many others also have faith they made the right choice and feel the same way you do...Sabek wrote: The simple answer to this is faith.
When we all die we will find out what the "right" answers are, but until that point no one on the earth can know for sure unless they have faith.
I have faith that I made the right choice.
I believe that I have made the correct choice.
The Bible in one verse describes faith as:
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."
Could I be wrong? It's possible I suppose but I have faith that I am not.
Sabek
Just Sabek
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Faith: the belief that if the majority think something; it's correct.Lohrno wrote:Yes it's faith, but why choose to have faith in that as opposed to that? Many others give the same answers about how their religion helps them...
Works equally well for religious nutbags and partisan jackasses.
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
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cid
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That is a fucked up comparison.Zaelath wrote: Faith: the belief that if the majority think something; it's correct.
Works equally well for religious nutbags and partisan jackasses.
A person’s faith is what gets them through certain obstacles in life, makes them stronger and gives them something to look forward to. Now, if this doesn’t involve strapping on explosives and killing people, what right do you have to give them shit about it? Or to judge them?
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Moonwynd
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Once again someone had to bring politics into a non political discussion...talk about partisan jackassery..sheesh.
I am still mulling Winnow's thoughts over. Winnow, you do not believe that parents should *force* their religious beliefs upon their children. In your own words you want people to wait and let them make their own choices when they are adults so they have a "fighting chance".
That statement comes from someone that is obviously anti-religion. Conversely one could say that we should not teach our children, or discipline our children in any fashion...instead letting them make their own decisions and mistakes so that they will be responsible for their own lives. Perhaps some would find your belief system to be detrimental to future generations and would emplore you to NOT share that belief system with your children...after all..we do want them to have a fighting chance (/sarcasm).
You find religion (organized or otherwise) to be farce and detrimental to the well being of sensible people and society in general. So you do not want future generations to be forced into a belief system from an early age by their parents. I believe the opposite to be true. I believe in sharing my spiritual/religious beliefs with my children. Taking them to worship...providing them with an opportunity to know and learn what I have learned. When they are adults they may then take what they have experienced and learned with me and make their own decisions. That is what I did:
Raised strictly Jewish...Temple/Bar Mitzvah/Torah...toyed with Humanism in my teens...became a Christian in my early 20's...discovered Buddhism in my late 20's...read up on Islam/Sufism, Daoism, Shinto..etc. Today in my mid to late 30's I am a Christian...who regularly practices sitting Zen Buddhist meditation (zazen) and who finds spiritual insights in readings and teachings from all of the aformentioned religions that brings me closer to God. My quest and thirst for knowledge from the sciences (I have my degree in Geology with a heavy concentration in Biology) to the arts has never abated. With my love and guidance I hope to pass these qualities on to my children.
You see Winnow, I have my faith...I found it in my own manner. I want my children to be open to all ideas and viewpoints...and make up their own minds. But I have a duty and responsibility to raise them the best way I know how.
Regards,
Moon
I am still mulling Winnow's thoughts over. Winnow, you do not believe that parents should *force* their religious beliefs upon their children. In your own words you want people to wait and let them make their own choices when they are adults so they have a "fighting chance".
That statement comes from someone that is obviously anti-religion. Conversely one could say that we should not teach our children, or discipline our children in any fashion...instead letting them make their own decisions and mistakes so that they will be responsible for their own lives. Perhaps some would find your belief system to be detrimental to future generations and would emplore you to NOT share that belief system with your children...after all..we do want them to have a fighting chance (/sarcasm).
You find religion (organized or otherwise) to be farce and detrimental to the well being of sensible people and society in general. So you do not want future generations to be forced into a belief system from an early age by their parents. I believe the opposite to be true. I believe in sharing my spiritual/religious beliefs with my children. Taking them to worship...providing them with an opportunity to know and learn what I have learned. When they are adults they may then take what they have experienced and learned with me and make their own decisions. That is what I did:
Raised strictly Jewish...Temple/Bar Mitzvah/Torah...toyed with Humanism in my teens...became a Christian in my early 20's...discovered Buddhism in my late 20's...read up on Islam/Sufism, Daoism, Shinto..etc. Today in my mid to late 30's I am a Christian...who regularly practices sitting Zen Buddhist meditation (zazen) and who finds spiritual insights in readings and teachings from all of the aformentioned religions that brings me closer to God. My quest and thirst for knowledge from the sciences (I have my degree in Geology with a heavy concentration in Biology) to the arts has never abated. With my love and guidance I hope to pass these qualities on to my children.
You see Winnow, I have my faith...I found it in my own manner. I want my children to be open to all ideas and viewpoints...and make up their own minds. But I have a duty and responsibility to raise them the best way I know how.
Regards,
Moon
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Adex_Xeda
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Proof is an ok thing to ask for. Jesus provided a bunch of it. It was well documented by mulitple witnesses.Lohrno wrote:So basically Adex you believe Satan created the other religions to blind people to Jesus' life, is that correct? The god you worship is the real one because the rest are creations of Satan?
If that's the case then what makes you think that say Christianity was a creation of Satan and the Jewish or Islam one is the real God? They might say the same thing...
Many others would say they opened themselves up to Allah or the Jewish God, and it filled them up like you described. Your experience is not unique... With that in mind, what makes you feel that you are right and they are wrong?
PS: I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I would just like to know because many people say the same things...Consider this a philosophical discussion.
A lot of people saw Jesus do amazing things.
At one point while he was in a river, the sky parted, a dove landed on his shoulder and a loud voice from above said " This is my son whom I am well pleased."
Witnesses report that by verbal command:
He fed over 5000 people until they were full with just a basket of bread and fish.
He turned a bunch of water into high quality booze at a wedding.
He healed sick people.
He cured blind people.
He calmed a storm.
He Ressurected dead people.
He fortold the future, and it was later verified as true.
They killed him, stuck him in a cave, rolled a huge rock in front of the cave, and put two roman guards to ward off looters. The two non beliving guards tesitifed that something that was by all description an angel came and ripped the stone loose and they found that Jesus was gone.
Days later, in front of hundreds of witnesses, Jesus walked and talked amonst them. He showed his scars of cruxifiction. Then in front of a crowd, he rose into the sky. He had power over even his own death.
Tons of witnesses saw this. Sources outside the bible agree with events about Jesus.
That's just the miracles. He fullfulled a ton of jewish prophecies about the Messiah that God would one day send.
All of this was documented and reported by a wide varety of witnesses. It's the best catalog of proof you could get from 33AD.
Just imagine if some guy living today did all of what Jesus did. Imagine if that guy said he was God. He certainly provided proof of his claims.
The only arguement that people stuggle with now is that Jesus did lived a while back. Just because it's been 2000 years, that doesn't invalidate Jesus' actions.
He said he was God. He did things inline with God's character. He fufilled Hebrew prophecy. He qualified himself, and along the way he told us how to get back in pure communication and fellowship with God.
I personally took his advice, and it works. What can I say?
I don't know much about hinduism, or other religions. I can't speak to them, but I can say true and true, that Jesus is real. I followed his instructions and now I see God. I have a relationship with the Architect of the Universe.
Jesus provided plenty of proof in the past, and today following his words allows for the most awesome experience anyone could ever have.
I'm sold. 100%. Jesus has made the first step of faith a no brainer.
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Adex_Xeda
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And as far as those T-Rex Cells. Test them, let's see what they can tell us about our past.
I've read that Carbon 14 dating is only good for about 15,000 years or so. Why not see if this tissue, (if that is what this is) has any decaying Carbon 14 elements. If not, OldWorldModel++ else ReconsiderOurTimline++;
I've read that Carbon 14 dating is only good for about 15,000 years or so. Why not see if this tissue, (if that is what this is) has any decaying Carbon 14 elements. If not, OldWorldModel++ else ReconsiderOurTimline++;
Are you talking about faith or "the juice"?cid wrote:That is a fucked up comparison.Zaelath wrote: Faith: the belief that if the majority think something; it's correct.
Works equally well for religious nutbags and partisan jackasses.
A person’s faith is what gets them through certain obstacles in life, makes them stronger and gives them something to look forward to. Now, if this doesn’t involve strapping on explosives and killing people, what right do you have to give them shit about it? Or to judge them?
I mean really... look hard at what you said faith enables and explain the difference between that and drugs.
A little faith is vital for the human race to function coherently, it's too much faith and not enough reason that I have an issue with. Like faith addicts.
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
I think everyone tends to have some form of "spiritual" side. Whether they choose to pursue that side through Christianity, Islam, Science, football, gambling, whatever ... they can still feel connected to this great unknown power that is larger than all of us and of which we are just a tiny bit part and FEEL the rush of life as it is.
Gurning that your spiritual way is number one or the REAL way is just a misunderstanding of the greater powers benefits and intentions, assuming it has any.
In truth, nobody knows, you can guess, but that's all it is, a guess. And taking history's word for anything frankly is not a particularly truthful or intelligent way in which to quest for knowledge on this subject.
History has a way of being written by the winners. (or whatever the quote is)
It's not about which religion is teh win, it's simply about faith and goodwill. (Remember that, world?)
If it makes the world a better place for you, congratulations, but it may not work on someone else, equal congratulations are in order for them.....
mmeeh. what do i know.
Gurning that your spiritual way is number one or the REAL way is just a misunderstanding of the greater powers benefits and intentions, assuming it has any.
In truth, nobody knows, you can guess, but that's all it is, a guess. And taking history's word for anything frankly is not a particularly truthful or intelligent way in which to quest for knowledge on this subject.
History has a way of being written by the winners. (or whatever the quote is)
It's not about which religion is teh win, it's simply about faith and goodwill. (Remember that, world?)
If it makes the world a better place for you, congratulations, but it may not work on someone else, equal congratulations are in order for them.....
mmeeh. what do i know.
Teenybloke: I agree totally.
Adex: In a roundabout way you have answered the question. You believe the historical accounts of your religion to all be true. There are other religions that have similar stories as well. But I'm not going to go farther than that. You believe this to be the most credible as I understand it.
Adex: In a roundabout way you have answered the question. You believe the historical accounts of your religion to all be true. There are other religions that have similar stories as well. But I'm not going to go farther than that. You believe this to be the most credible as I understand it.
I'd like to add in that a number of same type of mysterious things that happend. Also were accomplished/proclaimed by worshipers of the old Greek/Roman gods.Proof is an ok thing to ask for. Jesus provided a bunch of it. It was well documented by mulitple witnesses.
A lot of people saw Jesus do amazing things.
At one point while he was in a river, the sky parted, a dove landed on his shoulder and a loud voice from above said " This is my son whom I am well pleased."
Witnesses report that by verbal command:
He fed over 5000 people until they were full with just a basket of bread and fish.
He turned a bunch of water into high quality booze at a wedding.
He healed sick people.
He cured blind people.
He calmed a storm.
He Ressurected dead people.
He fortold the future, and it was later verified as true.
They killed him, stuck him in a cave, rolled a huge rock in front of the cave, and put two roman guards to ward off looters. The two non beliving guards tesitifed that something that was by all description an angel came and ripped the stone loose and they found that Jesus was gone.
Whos to say Zuse isnt real? If 10% of the story lines that of the old heros did, were by the hands of the diffrent gods. Won't that amount to more than what Jesus did?
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Adex_Xeda
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It's easy not to belive the amazing things that the bible says about Jesus.
Just as if today you read a book with apparent miracles attributed to one person.
Heck even if you had a few hundred witnesses confirming the account. There will still be those who would write off the amazing as fairytales.
But unlike fairytales when you follow what the bible teaches, it works. It clears the way for a relationship with God.
It makes sense to be sceptical of something, until it does what it promises.
Just as if today you read a book with apparent miracles attributed to one person.
Heck even if you had a few hundred witnesses confirming the account. There will still be those who would write off the amazing as fairytales.
But unlike fairytales when you follow what the bible teaches, it works. It clears the way for a relationship with God.
It makes sense to be sceptical of something, until it does what it promises.
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Fash
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what frightens me is that this 'relationship with god' you speak of is a figment of the imagination.... and faith that you could be tricked by your own conscious/subconsciousness.
one example is these priests who believe that god spoke to them IN THEIR HEADS and told them to become a priest, did no more than talk themselves into it.
one example is these priests who believe that god spoke to them IN THEIR HEADS and told them to become a priest, did no more than talk themselves into it.
Fash
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Naivety is dangerous.
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Naivety is dangerous.
I have to admit, I am amused by the way Adex is able to dismiss another (older) religion's stories as myths or "fariy tales" yet, the documentation he claims as proof of his religion's validity is just as subjective and can be considered a a collection of myths or fairy tales in its own right. That does not mean that Jesus, the man, could never have existed and taught a doctrine of peace and love, but it does call into question the "proven miracles" that Adex listed, and the claim that Jesus was the Son of God in any but the figurative sense, as, by the Christian definition, we all are (if he is our creator). Perhaps living as the Greek stories suggested brought you closer to their Gods as well...Adex_Xeda wrote:It's easy not to belive the amazing things that the bible says about Jesus.
Just as if today you read a book with apparent miracles attributed to one person.
Heck even if you had a few hundred witnesses confirming the account. There will still be those who would write off the amazing as fairytales.
But unlike fairytales when you follow what the bible teaches, it works. It clears the way for a relationship with God.
It makes sense to be sceptical of something, until it does what it promises.
Wulfran Moondancer
Stupid Sidekick of the Lambent Dorf
Petitioner to Club Bok Bok
Founding Member of the Barbarian Nation Movement
Stupid Sidekick of the Lambent Dorf
Petitioner to Club Bok Bok
Founding Member of the Barbarian Nation Movement
It boggles my mind how blind to faith Adex is. I guess that's why people like Hitler are so successful manipulating the general population.
It'd be sad if I didn't have to deal with the fucked up world we live in caused by it. I'm more at the point of irritation with the level of gullibility (tendency to believe too readily and therefore to be easily deceived) in this day and age.
It'd be sad if I didn't have to deal with the fucked up world we live in caused by it. I'm more at the point of irritation with the level of gullibility (tendency to believe too readily and therefore to be easily deceived) in this day and age.
Last edited by Winnow on March 29, 2005, 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Midnyte_Ragebringer
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In the end, people like Adex are good people though.
So, maybe to us non-believers, we may find it hard to understand how he could buy it so easily, he feels the same way about how easily we dismiss it.
To many of us, common sense tells us there can be no God. There is no proof. Everything said about the way he operates can be debunked, etc, etc, etc.
But, in the end, neither of us really know shit. When we die, if we continue to live on, then there may be something to it. It is hard for the human brain to conceive that it will stop and die. Not the body, the brain.....the soul.
While in our constant search for truth and the endless questioning, lets try not to bash people of faith that are actual good people. Let's stick to bashing the wackos, who kill abortion doctors, or con old people out of their money, or suicide bomb buildings, behead people, etc.
So, maybe to us non-believers, we may find it hard to understand how he could buy it so easily, he feels the same way about how easily we dismiss it.
To many of us, common sense tells us there can be no God. There is no proof. Everything said about the way he operates can be debunked, etc, etc, etc.
But, in the end, neither of us really know shit. When we die, if we continue to live on, then there may be something to it. It is hard for the human brain to conceive that it will stop and die. Not the body, the brain.....the soul.
While in our constant search for truth and the endless questioning, lets try not to bash people of faith that are actual good people. Let's stick to bashing the wackos, who kill abortion doctors, or con old people out of their money, or suicide bomb buildings, behead people, etc.
As evidenced by the multitude of posters on this board who decry Christianity as a fairy tale I would submit that it is not the Christians who are mainly guilty of forcing or attempting to force their beliefs on others, but rather the secular humanists. Further it seems the Christians voice their opinions with respect, while most here want to ridicule.Hesten wrote:Actually it DO matter, when someone who believe something try to force their beliefs on others (which for some strange reason seems to be mainly religious people who got this problem).nobody wrote:i can but i choose not to.Animale wrote:nobody can prove that God doesn't exist.
my question is why does it matter? who cares what anyone else believes in? just do your thing and let everyone else do theirs.
Might I point out here that the pro choice people kill far more humans than the fringe element you are referencing.Hesten wrote:Just to take some random subjects, lets pick abortion first. You got some people who think its their own choice. They dont go around forcing anti abortion people to get abortions. On the other hand, we got the anti abortion guys, who with their belief want to get everyone to believe what they do, and in some extreme cases go as far as to kill people to get their beliefs heard.
Yes because she is dying with dignity, and any parent would be happy to watch their child starve to death.Hesten wrote:We got the Terri Schiavo case, where we got very religious parents, who seems to be the one causing all the problems, because they dont with to respect the wishes of their daughter (IF the husband tell the truth).
Hesten wrote:We got the Volcanoes of the Deep Sea imax picture case (http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/view ... hp?t=13933), where strangely its again religious beliefs that are used to repress the movie.
Atokal
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli
I'm not going to pass judgement on that. That was his thought process and I'm just trying to understand how him and others come to this conclusion. Aparently, he believes that the evidence and history surrounding this is solid. We all at some point choose or not choose to believe certain things. I mean I'm sure I could probably go back and find holes in all of these things he describes, and perhaps there were a few things that needed more explanation, but that's not nice and it will get us nowhere but a flamewar. In my opinion we've gotten at the heart of the whole religious thing - history.Chidoro wrote:Christianity: I'm Right and Other Religions Are Myths
A new novel by Adex, coming to stores next Tuesday!
You also have to remember that history is written by the victors. ^ ^
Isotopic techniques:Adex_Xeda wrote:And as far as those T-Rex Cells. Test them, let's see what they can tell us about our past.
I've read that Carbon 14 dating is only good for about 15,000 years or so. Why not see if this tissue, (if that is what this is) has any decaying Carbon 14 elements. If not, OldWorldModel++ else ReconsiderOurTimline++;
a – Uranium to Lead (minerals), 1 million to 4.5 billion years.
b – Rubidium to Strontium (minerals), 60 Million to 4.5 billion years.
c – Potassium to Argon (minerals), 10,000 to 3 billion years.
d – Uranium series disequilibrium (minerals, shell, bone, teeth, coral), 0 to 400,000 years.
e – Carbon 14 (minerals, shell, bone, teeth, water), 0 to 40,000 years.
Radiation Exposure techniques:
a – Fission Track (Minerals, natural glass), 500,000 to 1 billion years
b – Thermoluminescence (Minerals, natural glass), 0 to 500,000 years
c – Electron Spin Resonance (Minerals, tooth enamel, shell coral), 1,000 to 1 million years.
Other techniques:
a – Geomagnetic polarity timescale (minerals), 780,000 to 200 million years.
b – Amino Acid racemization (shells, other carbonates), 500 to 300,000 years.
c – Obsidian hydration (natural glass), 500 to 200,000 years.
d – Dendrochronology (tree rings), 0 to 12,000 years.
e – Lichenometry (lichens), 100 to 9,000 years.
Well, that means you haven't looked at history fully as far as 'miracles' go.
(Since you're basing your belief in higher powers on history, and personal experience...or am I wrong?) You also haven't had personal experience in another religion, and no offense but you have so much conviction I doubt you could give it a fair try.
It's okay though, we all choose who to believe as a credible source at some point. I can't really prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is such a thing as DNA even...
(Since you're basing your belief in higher powers on history, and personal experience...or am I wrong?) You also haven't had personal experience in another religion, and no offense but you have so much conviction I doubt you could give it a fair try.
It's okay though, we all choose who to believe as a credible source at some point. I can't really prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is such a thing as DNA even...
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Adex_Xeda
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Yes, I do place a lot of weight on the validity of the bible.
You guys place the test of evidence to an unreachable standard for 33AD.
Heck you must want video or something. Documented accounts multiple witnesses, carefully maintained for 2 milliena IS the best evidence that you'll find from that era. Third party documents, from non christians support the bible accounts of Jesus. It's the best evidence you're going to get from that time period. Archeology supports biblical accounts.
Every time you dig into a supposed bible contradiction, a little homework works it out. Again and again this has happened to me when I researched these things. No other work from antiquity is as solid.
You guys have the very best evidence from that time period that is possible, yet you want want something akin to video. I'm sorry I can't help you there.
The other confirming element to this is as I've said. The bible works when applied. Millions have applied its teachings and can vouch for its life changing effects. That's not something you get out of the illiad.
It's a special book that catalogs an amazing person.
You guys place the test of evidence to an unreachable standard for 33AD.
Heck you must want video or something. Documented accounts multiple witnesses, carefully maintained for 2 milliena IS the best evidence that you'll find from that era. Third party documents, from non christians support the bible accounts of Jesus. It's the best evidence you're going to get from that time period. Archeology supports biblical accounts.
Every time you dig into a supposed bible contradiction, a little homework works it out. Again and again this has happened to me when I researched these things. No other work from antiquity is as solid.
You guys have the very best evidence from that time period that is possible, yet you want want something akin to video. I'm sorry I can't help you there.
The other confirming element to this is as I've said. The bible works when applied. Millions have applied its teachings and can vouch for its life changing effects. That's not something you get out of the illiad.
It's a special book that catalogs an amazing person.
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Adex_Xeda
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I'm a curious person with time and very wide interests. I'm lucky to have close friends who practice hinduism, islam and baha'i. We talk all the time on road trips. I roomed for 4 years with a die hard mathetician atheist who challeged my every thought. My suitemate was all into evolution an now teaches with a doctorate in herpitology. He never let me get away with poor reasoning.Lohrno wrote:Well, that means you haven't looked at history fully as far as 'miracles' go.
(Since you're basing your belief in higher powers on history, and personal experience...or am I wrong?) You also haven't had personal experience in another religion, and no offense but you have so much conviction I doubt you could give it a fair try.
It's okay though, we all choose who to believe as a credible source at some point. I can't really prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is such a thing as DNA even...
I've been exposed to all types of thinking. But I'm not going to sit here and tell speak about Islam and it's claims. I'm not a muslim. Ask a muslim.
I will speak to my personal experience. The bible works. It does as it claims.
Since you are trying to convince me...
Many of the events in the bible can be attributed to possibly whoever wrote it's interpretation. You also discount the possibility of conspiracy. Perhaps the jewish people in a rough time needed a messiah, found a real person and got together to discuss how to deify him? There are many other possible explanations. There are also many accounts of giant squids attacking sea vessels, and many people claim beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have seen the loch ness monster.
About such things I would trust physical evidence rather than anecdotal more. Thousands of people claim they have seen a UFO...
Many of the events in the bible can be attributed to possibly whoever wrote it's interpretation. You also discount the possibility of conspiracy. Perhaps the jewish people in a rough time needed a messiah, found a real person and got together to discuss how to deify him? There are many other possible explanations. There are also many accounts of giant squids attacking sea vessels, and many people claim beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have seen the loch ness monster.
About such things I would trust physical evidence rather than anecdotal more. Thousands of people claim they have seen a UFO...
The illiad is not a religious text. The point is, that's something you can get out of the Qui'ran though.Adex_Xeda wrote: The other confirming element to this is as I've said. The bible works when applied. Millions have applied its teachings and can vouch for its life changing effects. That's not something you get out of the illiad.
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Adex_Xeda
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It gets worse, my baha'i friend holds all three major religion's holy books as equally valid, despite the conflicts between Qui'ran and the Bible.
The Qui'ran denies the divinity of Jesus. He's just another prophet in that book. That doesn't work well with me, because only God could be perfect enough to take the punishment for all sin. If Jesus was just a prophet, christianity is null and void, and I would be denied an interactive, clear channel relationship with God. My relationship with God, proves to me that Jesus was as he claimed, and by extension, the Qui'ran is wrong about Jesus.
The Qui'ran denies the divinity of Jesus. He's just another prophet in that book. That doesn't work well with me, because only God could be perfect enough to take the punishment for all sin. If Jesus was just a prophet, christianity is null and void, and I would be denied an interactive, clear channel relationship with God. My relationship with God, proves to me that Jesus was as he claimed, and by extension, the Qui'ran is wrong about Jesus.
You do know that that reasoning are more or less half of the reason for the last 2 Crusades, rigth?Adex_Xeda wrote:It gets worse, my baha'i friend holds all three major religion's holy books as equally valid, despite the conflicts between Qui'ran and the Bible.
The Qui'ran denies the divinity of Jesus. He's just another prophet in that book. That doesn't work well with me, because only God could be perfect enough to take the punishment for all sin. If Jesus was just a prophet, christianity is null and void, and I would be denied an interactive, clear channel relationship with God. My relationship with God, proves to me that Jesus was as he claimed, and by extension, the Qui'ran is wrong about Jesus.
"Terrorism is the war of the poor, and war is the terrorism of the rich"
I can understand believing in all the major religions at once more than exclusively one as millions attest to how it has helped them. That seems like a reasonable conclusion to me. Personally I'm not buying it, but it seems more reasonable than "mine is right and no one else's is."Adex_Xeda wrote:It gets worse, my baha'i friend holds all three major religion's holy books as equally valid, despite the conflicts between Qui'ran and the Bible.
Adex, do you hold both testaments of the bible to be a true indication of what god is? Its obvious you subscribe to the New Testament and Jesus' divinity. But do you also accept the Old Testament and its description of god?
The Old testament god is such a stark difference in comparison to the New. In the old, god is vengeful and angry and jealous and spiteful. He demands human sacrifice. He wipes out nearly all of life. He turns faithless into pillars of salt. He banishes mankind from paradise. He strikes down a population that strives to answers questions.
Is this the god you have a clear channel of communication with?
How can this be the same god that Jesus preached about? How can the peace preaching Jesus be the son of such a spiteful, angry, jealous, and vengeful god.
Yet under Christianity, it is the same god. The god that flooded the planet is the same that is full of love and compassion. The god that demanded Abraham sacrifice his son, is the same which tells us to turn the other cheek.
The bible is too contradictory in its references to god. I dont understand how people can accept both testaments.
The Old testament god is such a stark difference in comparison to the New. In the old, god is vengeful and angry and jealous and spiteful. He demands human sacrifice. He wipes out nearly all of life. He turns faithless into pillars of salt. He banishes mankind from paradise. He strikes down a population that strives to answers questions.
Is this the god you have a clear channel of communication with?
How can this be the same god that Jesus preached about? How can the peace preaching Jesus be the son of such a spiteful, angry, jealous, and vengeful god.
Yet under Christianity, it is the same god. The god that flooded the planet is the same that is full of love and compassion. The god that demanded Abraham sacrifice his son, is the same which tells us to turn the other cheek.
The bible is too contradictory in its references to god. I dont understand how people can accept both testaments.
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Tyek
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http://www.earth-history.com/Earth-10.htm
Here is a interesting site comparing the Sumarian and other early people with the Bible. he also shows how it compares with the scientific theories of today. I do not know the answer to if there is a God. No one here does.
There are pictures of UFO type shapes on caves from prehistoric days, UFO pictures in Egyptian text. Many of the Bible stories have been found to be true, like the great flood. The flood is also seen in about 20+ other cultural "stories" all over the world, many predating the Christian timeline for it. It seems certain someone named Jesus was alive at one point and is the one the stories in the Bible are about. I do not know if he did all of those wonderful things they say he did. I doubt he did, but what is disappointing is that his ultimate message. The message of virtually every religion from Buddha to Christianity has been torn and twisted into hate and war. I am not saying everyone is like this, but the people who are use these very teachings to justify there actions, then decry others who think another way.
I get sick watching some anti abortion nutjob forsake his belief and kill a doctor then claim he was justified in the Bible. If you say you are living a religious tenet then follow it. Almost every war ever had some religious basis for it and that is the worst thing. If there is a God, and I truly hope there is, we have distorted his message maybe beyond redemption.
I am glad many of you have faith. I hope you maintain it, live it. If you were wrong then all you did was lead a good, hopefully fruitful life and maybe helped the world a little. Nothing wrong with that in the least. And to those who fake their beliefs, I hope there is a true God and you reap the "reward" you so richly deserve.
The Bible is not a literal document in my mind. It is part historical document and part fable. It is an amazing book though and one everyone should read.
Here is a interesting site comparing the Sumarian and other early people with the Bible. he also shows how it compares with the scientific theories of today. I do not know the answer to if there is a God. No one here does.
There are pictures of UFO type shapes on caves from prehistoric days, UFO pictures in Egyptian text. Many of the Bible stories have been found to be true, like the great flood. The flood is also seen in about 20+ other cultural "stories" all over the world, many predating the Christian timeline for it. It seems certain someone named Jesus was alive at one point and is the one the stories in the Bible are about. I do not know if he did all of those wonderful things they say he did. I doubt he did, but what is disappointing is that his ultimate message. The message of virtually every religion from Buddha to Christianity has been torn and twisted into hate and war. I am not saying everyone is like this, but the people who are use these very teachings to justify there actions, then decry others who think another way.
I get sick watching some anti abortion nutjob forsake his belief and kill a doctor then claim he was justified in the Bible. If you say you are living a religious tenet then follow it. Almost every war ever had some religious basis for it and that is the worst thing. If there is a God, and I truly hope there is, we have distorted his message maybe beyond redemption.
I am glad many of you have faith. I hope you maintain it, live it. If you were wrong then all you did was lead a good, hopefully fruitful life and maybe helped the world a little. Nothing wrong with that in the least. And to those who fake their beliefs, I hope there is a true God and you reap the "reward" you so richly deserve.
The Bible is not a literal document in my mind. It is part historical document and part fable. It is an amazing book though and one everyone should read.
When I was younger, I used to think that the world was doing it to me and that the world owes me some thing…When you're a teeny bopper, that's what you think. I'm 40 now, I don't think that anymore, because I found out it doesn't f--king work. One has to go through that. For the people who even bother to go through that, most assholes just accept what it is anyway and get on with it." - John Lennon
well when you take your last breath, your blood oxygen level will rapidly drop (FACT)
if you were concious before that breath, you won't be for much longer because the brain doesn't tolerate low blood oxygen very well (FACT)
soon after losing conciousness, your heart will stop beating because the muscles of the heart do not operate well without oxygen (FACT)
soon after that you suffer rapid, accelerated cell death in your brain. If your brain is denied oxygenated blood for more than a few minutes, irreparable damage occurs (FACT)
at some point (minutes later) the damage is so robust that there is no way to recover function, and you are effectively dead (FACT).
so in other words, its like turning an electrical device off, and it doesnt turn back on.
you're dead!
if you were concious before that breath, you won't be for much longer because the brain doesn't tolerate low blood oxygen very well (FACT)
soon after losing conciousness, your heart will stop beating because the muscles of the heart do not operate well without oxygen (FACT)
soon after that you suffer rapid, accelerated cell death in your brain. If your brain is denied oxygenated blood for more than a few minutes, irreparable damage occurs (FACT)
at some point (minutes later) the damage is so robust that there is no way to recover function, and you are effectively dead (FACT).
so in other words, its like turning an electrical device off, and it doesnt turn back on.
you're dead!
