Conform or GTFO

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Noysyrump
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Conform or GTFO

Post by Noysyrump »

Then
In May 1992, Chief Deputy Daniel Weyenberg of the McLennan County Sheriff's Department called the ATF notifying that his office had been contacted by the local United Parcel Service regarding a driver seeing a package that had broken open on delivery to the Branch Davidian residence, revealing that it contained firearms, inert grenade casings, and black powder. On June 9, 1992 a formal investigation was opened and a week later it was classified as "sensitive, thereby calling for a high degree of oversight from both Houston and Headquarters" (italics on the original).[12][13]

The documentary Inside Waco claims that the investigation started when in 1992 the ATF became concerned over reports of automatic gunfire coming from the Carmel compound.[14]

The ATF began surveillance from a house across the road from the compound, but their cover was noticeably poor (the "college students" were in their 30s, not registered at the local schools, and they did not keep a schedule which would have fit any legitimate employment or classes).[15] Subsequent investigations, including sending in one agent undercover, revealed that there were over 150 weapons and 8,000 rounds of ammunition in the compound. Most of the weapons were legal semi-automatics; however, the ATF alleged there were also a number of fire-arms that had been illegally modified to fire full-automatic.[14]

Davy Aguilera, the ATF agent that had prepared the affidavit, testified later on the trial that a neighbor heard machine-gun fire; but Aguilera failed to tell the magistrate that the same neighbor had previously reported the noise to the sheriff, who investigated the noise. The sheriff found Koresh had a lawful item called a hellfire device, which allows a semi-automatic firearm to fire at a rate approaching that of fully automatic firearms. The affidavit was approved by a U.S. magistrate and was used as a base for warrants.[16]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege


Now
SAN ANGELO, TEXAS – More than 400 children removed by investigators from a West Texas polygamist compound are in state legal custody in an unprecedented child welfare case that grows more complex by the day.

The children face an uncertain fate, experts say, including months of legal wrangling over them and the increasing possibility that most won't be returned to the remote religious ranch. A judge has scheduled a hearing for April 17.

Meanwhile, state officials must now care for and find foster families for children who have led a mostly monastic life, one where pop culture is an anathema and the outside world is an evil.

"They're going to need a lot of people that understand their culture and history," said Sam Brower, a Utah private investigator who has made several visits to the 1,700-acre Eldorado compound, run by followers of jailed polygamist Warren Jeffs. "They're trying to communicate with people that have lived out their lives in a cave basically – very, very isolated."
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... c0801.html


Texas is just one of those 'special' states. I'm all for state's rights, but i do believe stealing peoples children under false allegations was strictly prohibited by that crumply old piece of paper no one pays attention to anymore.
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Re: Conform or GTFO

Post by Sueven »

The Constitution does not prevent states from taking children from their parents when those parents abuse and/or neglect those children. Texas, like every other state in the country, considers it to be "abuse" when you force your daughter, at age 12, to enter into a polygamous marriage with an adult who proceeds to rape her. I don't think that's a very controversial case of abuse, but if you disagree, we can argue about it.

The Constitution also does not prevent states from taking children from their parents based on false allegations of abuse. It simply requires that those allegations be vigorously and promptly investigated, and that the children be returned to their parents if those allegations cannot be proven satisfactorily. It's actually often pretty difficult to prove such an allegation. If Texas is unable to prove that these children actually were abused, they will (most likely) be returned to their families.

I don't think the allegations are false. Do you?
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Re: Conform or GTFO

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If, there was a case within that comunity, where someone forced a 12 year old into marriage, then by all means, prosecute those involved. This however, is mass child obduction by a facist state beurocracy (i hate spelling that word) as I am sure not all those 401 children and 70+ families (mothers, probably like 4 men total :) ) have broken the law.

What is by the way, the legal age for marriage in texas (with parental consent) as I do not know?
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Post by Sueven »

I don't know the age of marriage-with-consent, but I don't think it matters-- a parent can consent to a minor's marriage, but they can't force a minor into marriage over the objection of the minor. And given the nature of the community, I'm sure the marriages are not legally binding anyway. If the marriages aren't legally binding, the sex that takes place between the ADULT MEN and the FEMALE CHILDREN is statutory rape at best and child rape at worst. Even if the marriages were somehow binding, the sex was likely often rape.

It's possible that this is an overreaction. However, it's also possible that it's not. This place was widely known as a polygamist community (polygamy is illegal) but was never raided because nobody ever came forth with any allegations. Texas COULD have started an investigation on its own initiative, knowing that illegal activity was going on, but chose not to. Why not I don't know-- it could be ethical, in that they didn't want to disrupt this communities lifestyle unless someone was being hurt, or it could have been practical, in that they thought it would be difficult to get information and make any charges stick.

Eventually, Texas got a call from a 16 year old girl who informed them that she'd been forced into marriage at age 12, forced to bear a child, had been beaten and had been raped. That's pretty serious shit and more than justifies a raid.

So I guess the question is: How did that raid turn from finding and removing the girl in question to removing every child in the compound? As far as I can tell, we don't know yet. But there's a few facts that I think lend some legitimacy to Texas's actions. First, they couldn't identify the girl. Who knows why, but it's possible she was being actively concealed by the community, making the entire community accomplices to abuse and rape. Second, and most important, the authorities could have discovered additional cases of abuse while they were there. This seems HIGHLY likely.

Consider:
1. Forced marriage and rape of children is abuse, aggravated by the polygamous nature of the marriages
2. The practice of this community is to force their female children into marriage, resulting in their rape (it's rape by our standards at least, I'm sure the FLDS doesn't consider it rape)

Is it really that far-fetched to believe that upon arriving here, the Texas authorities noticed that EVERY FEMALE CHILD in the community was being abused, and therefore removed them all?

Obviously we need more facts. It's possible that Texas just used this as an excuse to persecute a misunderstood minority. But with the facts that we have so far, I'm not too concerned. These kids should not be forced into the FLDS lifestyle.

Edit to add: Apparently the women who left did so of their own free will. There were also a number of male children removed, and I haven't heard any explanation for that.

And I'm glad we're talking about this-- I think it's really fascinating, and I'm surprised at how little discussion it seems to have generated.
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Re: Conform or GTFO

Post by Boogahz »

Texas: The age is 18 without from a parent or your legal guardian. If under the age of 16, the law requires that the couple receives a court order before being allowed to marry.
Fairly certain that is accurate
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Re: Conform or GTFO

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Sueven wrote: Eventually, Texas got a call from a 16 year old girl who informed them that she'd been forced into marriage at age 12, forced to bear a child, had been beaten and had been raped. That's pretty serious shit and more than justifies a raid.

So I guess the question is: How did that raid turn from finding and removing the girl in question to removing every child in the compound? As far as I can tell, we don't know yet. But there's a few facts that I think lend some legitimacy to Texas's actions. First, they couldn't identify the girl. Who knows why, but it's possible she was being actively concealed by the community, making the entire community accomplices to abuse and rape. Second, and most important, the authorities could have discovered additional cases of abuse while they were there. This seems HIGHLY likely.
This is whats been reported of this incident up here and based on the confusion on the part of the authorities in identifying the 16 yr old who phoned in the complaint, and the quasi-communal complex that existed, I'd argue the rights and safety of the children should be the primary concern in this case. The children can and will be returned to those parents who aren't guilty in this shit but in the short term, better safe than sorry.
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Re: Conform or GTFO

Post by Kluden »

I'm thinking the lack of discussion on this one is because we are all outsiders, looking at something that is "obviously" wrong to us...so what's to discuss? Its standard practice for child services to extract all children from a family that has issues until proven otherwise. Since the strong communal issue here is the case, its a matter of removing all minors, just to be better safe than sorry.
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Re: Conform or GTFO

Post by Fash »

Saw some of these women on the news this morning. Holy shit they are ugly as sin! No wonder these guys need more than one.

Get out of the stone-age, fuckers! This place should have been raided a long time ago.
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Post by Aabidano »

Kluden wrote:Its standard practice for child services to extract all children from a family that has issues until proven otherwise
Having been on the receiving end of one of those witch hunts it really sucks, you're guilty until proven innocent and there isn't a lot you can do until some idiot with a degree in underwater basket weaving makes a determination that won't necessarily have anything to do with reality. I don't disagree with what they did n this scenario, how they did it and how they're handling it now leaves a lot to be desired.

These people are deeply brainwashed enough I really doubt it would have occurred to one of their 16 year old girls to make the claim that was made or even to see anything wrong with it for that matter. They don't have any basis for comparison to know somethings not right, or that what's happening is illegal. It's just how things are in their world. Later on, when they've had some exposure to reality? I can see it then. Not to say the allegations are untrue, I'm sure they are to some extent at least.
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Re: Conform or GTFO

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The real issue is not whether or not we agree with thier way of life, the issue is that they should have the right to live it without persecution. That was one of the main reasons for the founding of this country. Religious freedom. Its why the Mormons and Ahmish even exsist. Because they have the right to exsist. Yet now, under the guise of "protecting children" with an unconfirmed phone call from an un identified caller, 400 children have been removed from their parents, with NO DUE PROCESS.

Now, from the veiw of these comunal folk, they believed the outside world was evil (hell how can they be wrong when all we care about is what Brittney Spears did today) and for 150 years, they believed the government would come take their children, and they passed that worry on down from generation to generation. Well low and behold, armed men with body armor, submachine guns, and APCs bust into thier church and snag their children. I'm begining to believe they where right. I'd move into one of these comunes right now, if I didnt have to make my own Kool-aid.

The problem, is that there wasn't any long investigations before hand, they just went in, some buerocrat decided "Oh we cant have this" and off the children go. Again I reiterate, If people where breaking laws, then prosecute THAT PERSON. This looks to much like a crack down on non-comformists very remeniscant of the rounding up of jews and gypsies some 70 years ago.

The CPS is a fascist Buerocracy invented in the 1960s to combat something that was already beeing handled by exsisting law enforcement agencies. Now child abuse cannot be all that common. Its hardwired into our genes to love our children, so having this whole system set up to combat something that isn't that common is only going to lead tofalsified claimes of child abuse so that these fat worthless buerocratic slobs can have meaning in thier life and an excuse to maintain their current budget and payday.

I'm begining to believe Freddy got Fingered was a political docu-drama.
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Re: Conform or GTFO

Post by Sueven »

Noysy wrote:Now child abuse cannot be all that common. Its hardwired into our genes to love our children
There is a wealth of social science which disagrees with you. I don't have the books with me at the moment, but I'll try to look up the studies at some point and post them here.
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Re: Conform or GTFO

Post by Noysyrump »

Sueven wrote:
Noysy wrote:Now child abuse cannot be all that common. Its hardwired into our genes to love our children
There is a wealth of social science which disagrees with you. I don't have the books with me at the moment, but I'll try to look up the studies at some point and post them here.
If you come back with a figure that amounts to 1% of families, I'm gonna smack you with that book.


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When they came for the FLDS you did nothing, because you where not a member of.
When they came for the Forum Trolls, they took you and there was noone left to speak up for you.
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You butchered those lines. And it was originally about Italians, not forum trolls.
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Post by Boogahz »

Custody hearings to determine if/where the children will be kept begin Thursday.
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Re: Conform or GTFO

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Boogahz wrote:Custody hearings to determine if/where the children will be kept begin Thursday.

IGNORE THIS. THERE IS NO DUE PROCESS. UNJUST ETC. AND SUCHFORTH.
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Re: Conform or GTFO

Post by Kluden »

I think the religious freedom in this country comes from one thing...following the law. Polygamy is illegal. The adults in charge of these children broke the law. After arrest of the law breakers, their children are now in a more unstable environment. Rather than subject them to that, child services saw it better to take them in.

I understand the raid was made for a different law being broken?, but it still boils down to breaking the law.

Also, I believe that the Department of Human Health and Services reports that 1 in 4 children are abused (25% investigation rate per capita of children) Source Of course, that just shows an investigation per capita rate...not an actual "abused" per capita rate. I'm sure that's much lower.

In 2001, Child Protective Service (CPS) agencies investigated more than 3.25 million reports of child abuse and neglect throughout the United States. This is an increase of 2 percent from the previous year. Teachers, law enforcement officers, social service workers and physicians made 56 percent of the reports.
Not trying to insite a riot here, but the statistics are fairly staggering and scary to me at least. Also, I feel for anyone wrongly accused and having to go through anything unjust to them when it comes to CPS and all cases of law.
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This thread has progessively gotten more retarded.

Which is really saying something considering it started on the ninth level of fucked up retarded.
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it actually happens quite easily, because of course responding to a retard is retarded. the only long term solution to the problem is to lay a trail of cold, uncooked hotdogs on the ground which leads from VV into an incinerator
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ooh! piece of candy!
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Post by Gzette »

Infringing on the right to freely practice a religion becomes moot when the practice of that religion infringes on an individuals rights. This means to me that they have all the right to invade the compound. It is an ongoing investigation so details about the actual investigation are not public. This opens the possibility that there has been an investigation into the compound for years, but they were not able to enter the compound until someone made a complaint (IE the 16 year old).

This scenario makes sense to me because of the overarching nature of the warrant and the massive scope of the operation. But that's just supposition.

Because all details about the ongoing investigation will be kept quiet, the only news we'll hear about it for awhile are going to be opinions, like crying moms from FLDS and talking heads pissed off about rights.

So fucking wait before you cry foul
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Post by Boogahz »

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/n ... 3raid.html
Appeals court says CPS improperly removed children from polygamist sect's ranch
Court ordered to return children to their families, but state could appeal the decision.
By Chuck Lindell
Friday, May 23, 2008

Delivering a rebuke to Texas child-welfare officials, an Austin appeals court ruled Thursday that state workers improperly removed children from a West Texas polygamist sect's ranch — and ordered that many of the children be returned to their parents' custody.

The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, which includes Child Protective Services, failed to prove that children at the Yearning For Zion Ranch were in imminent danger and needed to be separated from parents for their protection, the 3rd Court of Appeals ruled.

The appellate court also ruled that District Judge Barbara Walther abused her discretion by failing to return the children during mid-April child-custody hearings. "Evidence that children raised in this particular environment may someday have their physical health and safety threatened is not evidence that the danger is imminent enough to warrant invoking the extreme measure of immediate removal," the appeals court said in its ruling.

The appeal was filed by 38 mothers from the ranch, and Thursday's decision related only to their children — about 130 of the more than 440 children placed into state custody and sent to live in foster homes across Texas.

But lawyers with Austin-based Texas RioGrande Legal Aid, which filed the appeal on the mothers' behalf, predicted the ruling will apply to all or most of the children in foster care.

"The arguments in the opinion, and the logic of it, is going to apply to the vast majority out there," lawyer Robert Doggett said. "This opinion obviously has great weight ... so it's going to impact all of those custody cases."

There was no indication Thursday when families might be reunited. The ruling, which directed Walther to rescind orders placing the 130 children into state custody, did not include a deadline.

In addition, the state is weighing whether to appeal the ruling to the Texas Supreme Court. Any appeal would likely include a request to delay implementation of the 3rd Court's opinion until the high court rules.

"We will work with the Office of Attorney General to determine the state's next steps in this case," the Department of Family and Protective Services said in a statement published on its Web site.

In San Angelo, about 40 miles north of Eldorado, hearings detailing what ranch parents must do to regain custody of their children were suspended after Thursday's ruling. The hearings began Monday.

"It's a great day for Texas justice. This was the right decision," legal aid lawyer Julie Balovich said outside the courthouse as several smiling mothers stood behind her.

The women declined to speak, but sect member Willie Jessop told The Associated Press that parents were cautiously elated.

"There will be no celebrations until some little children are getting hugs from their parents," he said.

The state child welfare department stood by its actions Thursday, saying investigators had found "a pervasive pattern of sexual abuse that puts every child at the ranch at risk."

"The very first interviews at the ranch revealed a pattern of underage girls being 'spiritually united' with older men and having children with the men," the agency statement says. "Investigators observed numerous girls who had small children, and girls told us that marriages could occur at any age."

Shortly after taking custody of the children, Child Protective Services said 31 were underage and pregnant. As of Thursday, 15 have been determined to be adults.

Under state law, children may be removed from home only when their physical health and welfare is in danger and the need for protection is urgent. In addition, the state must make reasonable efforts to keep families intact before concluding that such a move is dangerous to the child.

The 3rd Court of Appeals said Child Protective Services failed to meet any of those guidelines at the ranch, which is owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a Mormon splinter group that practices polygamy.

"Even if one views the FLDS belief system as creating a danger of sexual abuse by grooming boys to be perpetrators of sexual abuse and raising girls to be victims of sexual abuse as the department contends, there is no evidence that this danger is 'immediate' or 'urgent,' as contemplated" by state law, the appeals court ruled.

The appeals court limited its review to evidence presented to Walther in April, when she presided over the first round of Child Protective Services hearings in the case.

The appellate justices found that the agency presented no evidence of physical abuse or harm to any child beyond five girls identified as having become pregnant between the ages of 15 and 17 — though the court acknowledged that Child Protective Services identified 15 sect adults who appeared to have had children when they were ages 3 to 17.

The appeals court also said that Child Protective Services:

Presented no evidence that young girls and boys of any age were endangered by remaining with their parents.

Failed to prove that teen girls "were in physical danger beyond living within a belief system that condones polygamous marriage to underage teens."

Mistakenly considered the entire ranch one household to justify removing of all children from an unsafe environment.

"While there is evidence that the living arrangements on the ranch are more communal than most typical neighborhoods, the evidence was not legally or factually sufficient to support a theory that the entire ranch community was a 'household,'
" the court ruled.

Walther should have recognized the shortcomings and reunited families after the April hearings, the appellate court ruled.

Thursday's ruling was done via a writ of mandamus, a relatively rare action allowing an appellate court to overrule the actions of a lower court. Attorneys estimated that the 3rd Court of Appeals accepts fewer than one in 10 applications for the writ.

The appeals court did not hear oral arguments before issuing its ruling. The opinion by Chief Justice Kenneth Law and Justices Bob Pemberton and Alan Waldrop did not list an author.
Once the source of the calls were questioned, I figured it wouldn't be long before the State stepped in to reject what was taking place. Hopefully the Atty General's office will at least start reuniting the families, but I will not hold my breath on that one...
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Re: Conform or GTFO

Post by Noysyrump »

Of course the nazis in the CPS* will not be held accountable. Should at least be removed from thier possitions (fired!).

edit, not cpa...
Last edited by Noysyrump on May 23, 2008, 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Boogahz »

The CPS here has had negative publicity for years, and nothing ever changes. It is almost like they go full-bore into these new "situations" thinking they will be able to prove how useful they are, and they forget that there are actually rules that have to be followed.
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Post by Jice Virago »

Regardless of anything else, polygamy and marriage to 12 year olds (let alone sexual relations) are illegal anywhere in this country. They are affronts to women's rights and children's rights. Brainwashignthe kids to agree with it with a bunch of religious bullshit is no excuse. This (or the Branch Davidion shit) are far from the worst issues with trampling on personal freedoms in this country, right now. I can't believe anyone would defend this behavior on any level with one breath, while advocating prisoner renditions and torture with the other.
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