The Truth about Taxes

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » January 7, 2003, 4:54 pm

Kylere wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Kylere wrote:People that prove they can complete a biological function that EVERY OTHER LIVING THING ON THE PLANET can pull off, and they get a 3k tax cut.

I work my ass off, pick up 11 industry certifications, get a 20k pay raise, and 13K of it goes to taxes.

That is my single largest problem with taxes in the US. People that are too stupid to use birth control pay less money, my god that is bullshit, if they make a CHOICE to have kids, their is no reason other taxpayers should supplement their income. Bad enough I have to pay a ton of taxes to school their illbehaved, eminem worshipping brain dead offspring.
There is your problem maybe you should of been out having kids Kylere and you wouldnt have this problem.
No Lead in the old pencil? j/k

Opportunity exists, desire to does not. but the fact remains I should not pay for the lifestyle decisions of others, they choose to have kids, no one is forced to do so any more than I am forced to buy a car or a house.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » January 7, 2003, 5:08 pm

Actually, the best sytem of taxation means shit with the way our entire government is set up. If it was to get fixed, then it would need to be restructured entirely from the ground up. If I had a magic wand and could make a wholesale change across the board it would go like this.

Congress cut to the bone. We don't need more laws and lawyers. We need more enforcement of existing laws and much much tougher on career criminals. Let the people vote on the laws that are to be passed. Elected officials don't do shit once they are entrenched.

Cut salaries of elected officials and government employees. With all of the privileges of being in office, why do they need an enormous salary to go with it? Elected officials should earn whatever the national median salary is.

Cut welfare entirely. Use the money saved towards education and social security. If you don't work, then you starve to death. Hard ass line, but if you want to eat, you can find a job.

Use the death penalty liberally on any murder where DNA evidence has shown proof of guilt. The removal of the murderers alone will save the taxpayers billions of dollars each year. Convicted rapists? No more repeat offenders with the removal of the sack.

Cut spending on any and every country where we are sending aid. Let natural selection begin to work again before the planet is overpopulated. Death is a natural thing. If people stop dying, the entire planet is doomed. Let the lazy and the stupid die. Stop trying to prevent it and let them propogate further to weaken the gene pool.

Just my happy little thoughts.

edit: if you read this and think it is too harsh and that we should spend every dollar possible to save all human life on the planet, then YOU are one of the ones who would not have existed if natural selection was allowed to take place.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » January 7, 2003, 5:09 pm

Opportunity exists, desire to does not. but the fact remains I should not pay for the lifestyle decisions of others, they choose to have kids, no one is forced to do so any more than I am forced to buy a car or a house.

Very true. But this is what the democrats wish for our society to be like. It is part of their efforts to move us to a more socialist society.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 7, 2003, 5:20 pm

desire does not exist?

total bullshit.

there are so many people right now who would do just about anything to be employed in their profession again.

companies cut 15,000+ jobs because of bullshit bribery scandals to raise stock prices to bribe a kids way into the top Manhatten kindergarten.

will the increased tax credit to small business for equipment purchases make them decide to hire more people to take up the slack for Wall Street and create some jobs? who knows, but in my opinion that is where the focus of any economic stimulus needs to be and not on stock dividends.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » January 7, 2003, 5:50 pm

Of course the best system of taxation would be a flat tax with no exemptions, and no exceptions.

AKA national sales tax. 9% on anything you buy not classified as a food or utility bill.

No ducking, no dodging. Elimination of 90% of the collection moneis we spend every year. Two months of your life each year that you don't have to spend fighting the current tax code. More money circulating within the United States, because there is no tax penalty for keeping your money at home.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 7, 2003, 5:57 pm

that couldnt even pay for the US military budget, let alone the rest of the government.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » January 7, 2003, 6:09 pm

http://www.salestax.org/

Two proposals are in front of congress right now, one at 15% national sales tax and eliminates social security, the other at 23% and keeping social security.

Yep, 9% is a bit low. Still by far the most fair tax proposal around.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » January 7, 2003, 6:18 pm

I would happily agree to a 20% national sales tax......if we stopped sending aid to any country and eliminated welfare.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » January 7, 2003, 6:29 pm

What happens to state taxes currently associated with sales tax? Is it 23% plus an additional 6% for state?
I like the idea of a flat tax, but it'll never fly. It's too vague and politicians will abuse the lack of restriction to no end.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » January 7, 2003, 6:31 pm

Voronwë wrote:i'm sure you didnt benefit from one tax dollar in your ascent from infancy.

Just because a system has been wrong in the past is no reason to keep it going. I am sure your quote could have easily be adapted as a line to argue against any change. Of course it is moot since we obviously cannot correct it by grandfathering, and just because we cannot restore tax monies from 1969 is no reason not to correct the issue now.

I am, while not happy about property taxes, more than willing to pay for general government. But I hate how easily schools can tag on more and more taxes by using the 'its for the children' line. The school system I belonged to as a student spent less than ONE SEVENTH per student as the community I live in now spends. Books/papers/Pencils/Desks and heat have not gone up 7 times in cost since I graduated in 1988, nor has teacher salaries. However administrator salaries have... I will let you figure your own conclusion on that issue.

Hell direct line school systems do not even irk me entirely, it is the huge amount spent on things like "adult education" which is actually just "get a GED factory" for people that fucked off the first time through the system. K-12 education in this country has a lot of issues, and could be a thread of it's own, however anyone with a room temp IQ can graduate with a reasonable to very little to no effort.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » January 7, 2003, 6:32 pm

Funny stuff. Wealth distribution in the US and most other industrial contries in fubar.

You might look at Adex's chart and say WTF that ain't fair. But do a little research on wealth distribution in your country and it makes a bit more sense.

I'll give you an analogy I found that represents the distribution of wealth in the US fairly well:

Another way to put it: Assume there are 100 people who have $100 to split up. No one expects it to be divided perfectly evenly at $1 apiece, but everyone involved expects that some basic fairness will be used in the process that will split up the money.

Now let's say the $100 winds up being divided as follows:

1 person gets $38.10
4 people get $5.32 each
5 people get $2.30 each
10 people get $1.25 each
20 people get .60 each
20 people get .23 each
40 people get 1/2 cent each

So compare taxes from that graph with wealth distribution.
Top 5% == 56.47% tax == 59.38% of total wealth.
Top 10% == 67.3% tax == 70.88% of total wealth.
Top 50% == 96.09% tax = 97.68% of total wealth.

I can easily understand the frustration with taxes (Hi I'm Canadian) but to begrudge the poor for paying less taxes is kinda retarded when you ignore the fact that the top 5% controls 50% more wealth than the other 95%.

"Trickle Down" should have been called trickle up as wealth distribution skyrocketed during those years in favor of the top 1%, surpassing the figures prior to the great depression (which saw the top 1%'s wealth drop from 37% to 19%).

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » January 7, 2003, 6:36 pm

Heh Forthe made me think of one thing about the system as it stands I like.

No socialized health care.

I experienced what a socialized health care system was like when I lived in Italy and they downsized our post hospital to a clinic. 4 week waits for tests to determine if something is cancerous is a perfect example of that system.

Rikk Wolvenkin · Post by **Rikk Wolvenkin** » January 7, 2003, 6:38 pm

I think I'll just pack a lunch and skip the restaurant all together.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 7, 2003, 6:38 pm

Adex your anecdotal proof that tax cuts for the wealthy are good because they will use the money to create more jobs are just as baseless as me saying that they are bad because the rich will just sock it away in some off shore account and hoard it because that is what old money rich people do.

It's just as simplistic to say that giving a tax break to the poor and middle class would stimulate the economy by them going out to purchase more things like dvd players and video games and golf clubs.

Pragmatically speaking, the burden of the tax load should be put on the shoulders of people who can afford it the most. It is government and society that allowed them to become wealthy in the first place. Without government and society the only people who would be wealthy would be people powerful enough to maintain their wealth by force and/or influence.

Funny that right wing morons see a stupid pie chart like that think about what a great break the poor are getting and how fucking wonderful it must be to be poor so they don't have to pay a lot in income taxes... Please collectively use your god damn fucking brains for a moment and think about how stupid you sound. Look at the real issue behind it.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » January 7, 2003, 6:39 pm

Funny stuff. Wealth distribution in the US and most other industrial contries in fubar.

Wealth distibution is socialspeak for "What's mine is mine, and what's your is mine too".

You earn it, you keep it.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » January 7, 2003, 6:48 pm

Fallanthas wrote: Wealth distibution is socialspeak for "What's mine is mine, and what's your is mine too".

You earn it, you keep it.

Wealth distribution is a measurement you dumbfuck. Similar to the tax distribution that Adex's chart showed. It is no more "socialspeak" than giving stating what the average life expectancy of redneck males is.

I'm sure your simple mind interpreted "Wealth distribution" as give lazy poor people money or some shit.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » January 7, 2003, 7:12 pm

You're 100% correct Forthe, that's exactly what I assumed.

My apologies.

Now, explain your fubar statement. If saying that our wealth distribution isn't fubar wasn't a call to give people other than those earning it a bigger slice of the pie.....

then educate this redneck.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » January 7, 2003, 7:45 pm

Again Chidoro... You're incorrect. Analogies do not need to be numerically accurate... They illustrate a point or opinion with Proportion.

There are people who pay lots of taxes and people who pay a little tax. A tax cut will proportionally benefit the person who pays more taxes more. The person who paid less, and subsequently gets less back, has no right to complain.

You do not need accurate numbers to prove the above paragraph.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » January 7, 2003, 7:56 pm

kyoukan type-R wrote:...the burden of the tax load should be put on the shoulders of people who can afford it the most. It is government and society that allowed them to become wealthy in the first place.

There's no way to respond to this crap other than to laugh. You really should move to China or North Korea or Viet Nam and see how your brand of government works best. I would hope you were just baiting us and aren't this obviously brainless.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » January 7, 2003, 8:01 pm

I would hope you were just baiting us and aren't this obviously brainless.

My experience reading Kyocunt's posts leads me to believe the latter.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 7, 2003, 8:14 pm

Metanis wrote: There's no way to respond to this crap other than to laugh. You really should move to China or North Korea or Viet Nam and see how your brand of government works best. I would hope you were just baiting us and aren't this obviously brainless.

That isn't communism. Do you even know what communism is, or did your form your opinions watching Red Dawn and Rambo II?

All I am saying is try to amass wealth in a state where there are no laws or society to contribute to the process, without doing it at the point of a gun. It's impossible. Wealthy people shoud pay more to maintain their wealth than poor people should have to pay to maintain their poverty.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 7, 2003, 8:17 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:My experience reading Kyocunt's posts leads me to believe the latter.

I'm going to do you a favor by being the only person not ignoring you in yet another thread, and acknowledging your existence and participation in a thread so far above your intellectual capacity to contribute to, that I'm amazed you haven't fallen asleep yet. I am going to go about this by telling you to fuck off.

BUT GUYS ROFL CHECK IT OUT I CALLED HER "KYOUCUNT"

LOL WTG DOOD U RULE

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » January 7, 2003, 8:31 pm

All I am saying is try to amass wealth in a state where there are no laws or society to contribute to the process

Riiiiiggghhhtt.

Of course, there are no buisnessman in China, and free trade didn't exist before the good-ol US of A.

This is just another attempt at rationalizing giving wealth away rather than forcing people to earn it.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » January 7, 2003, 8:55 pm

BUT GUYS ROFL CHECK IT OUT I CALLED HER "KYOUCUNT"

LOL WTG DOOD U RULE

I will always call you kyocunt. So get over it all ready.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » January 7, 2003, 8:58 pm

double

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » January 7, 2003, 9:02 pm

Fash wrote:Again Chidoro... You're incorrect. Analogies do not need to be numerically accurate... They illustrate a point or opinion with Proportion.

There are people who pay lots of taxes and people who pay a little tax. A tax cut will proportionally benefit the person who pays more taxes more. The person who paid less, and subsequently gets less back, has no right to complain.

You do not need accurate numbers to prove the above paragraph.

Again, I restate, that yes you do have to be accurate. If you're using broad based categories such as the top 10%, you better damn well have accurate figures because it doesn't show a damn thing otherwise. There's a huge difference between the top 1% and the top 10% in the way they pay and in the way they shelter.

You're assuming the proportion was equal. It's not.
You're wrong. I understand why you think its clear cut, but it's not. Not by a longshot

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 7, 2003, 9:08 pm

Fallanthas wrote:Riiiiiggghhhtt.

Of course, there are no buisnessman in China, and free trade didn't exist before the good-ol US of A.

This is just another attempt at rationalizing giving wealth away rather than forcing people to earn it.

what the fuck are you babbling about? are you even replying in the right thread?

Mak · Post by **Mak** » January 8, 2003, 4:49 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
I would hope you were just baiting us and aren't this obviously brainless.
My experience reading Kyocunt's posts leads me to believe the latter.

When she isn't pissing me off, I have to admit that Kyoukan is one of the more witty and intelligent posters here- which pisses me off even more.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » January 8, 2003, 4:56 am

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 8, 2003, 4:57 am

not enough feces throwing. try and find a picture of two babboons throwing their own filth at a computer monitor with vault on the screen, and screeching unintelligible rage and it will be perfect.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » January 8, 2003, 8:29 am

I guess the fundamental division here is along lines of whether or not you believe that making the rich richer benefits the rest of us.
I don't think so. In fact I think it's bullshit we are being sold so we happily go along with such practices.

Drewno · Post by **Drewno** » January 8, 2003, 9:13 am

ok so I was taking a shower this morning when I had a sudden Epipheny(sp?) on how to solve our debt/tax problem

KILL OFF OUR OLD PEOPLE!

ITS SO FUCKING SIMPLE. We kill them and we no longer have any money being spent on social security, and the money in that program can be used to fund our wars and pay off our debt....what's that you say? We need even MORE money?!

KILL OFF OUR POOR !!!
PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

Deward · Post by **Deward** » January 8, 2003, 10:55 am

Penalizing people because they worked their asses off to make their fortunes is bullshit. Nothing pisses me off more than to see people living off my tax dollars because they were able to get on the disability rolls for being an alcoholic or stupid.

I am happy to pay my fair share of taxes but I am not happy seeing it wasted all to hell.

How would I fix things?

I would cut a lot of government spending. Non-violent criminals I would collar and push them back into the workforce, get a job or go to prison. Bring chain gangs back as well. Prison should not be a home away from home. Make the food shitty (but nutritious) and take their entertainment away. Hell leave them all in lockup permanently. They'll reform or go crazy trying.

Remove pensions and set elected officials salaries to be directly linked to the median income of the country. Do the country good then you get more. Maybe give them bonuses if there is a surplus in the government.

Cut welfare and use the money on job training. If they don't want to learn then I will let them earn their welfare checks picking up garbage on the side of the road or other community tasks. No sitting at home watching soaps all day.

Have graduated sales taxes. I.e. little to no taxes for items under $20 but have high sales taxes on high luxury items like boats and planes. If you want it then you will pay for it without screwing hard workers out of their money.

Deward

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » January 8, 2003, 1:04 pm

Killing off the elderly is shit...as the ones that are still around put in their time and paid their social security and earned it. I say kill off the lazy and the criminals. If we would just exile anyone who is a repeat offender for violent crimes....to Denmark...we would literally save billions a year that could go towards many other social programs. AND the odds are they would not even be noticed with the derelicts that live there now.