Home Theater Projectors. What are you waiting for?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 24, 2005, 3:10 am

I'm closing in on two years with my Sanyo Z2 projector and am still loving it. Since then, the Sanyo Z3 and Z4 have been released.

The Z2 suggested retail was 2999 but street prices were around 2000 and I got mine for 1850.00. Currently you can get a Sanyo Z4 for around 2K but I didn't know that Z2's are still being sold. They go for 999.00 now. That's under 1K for a 1280X720 projector! That's chump change for an awesome HDTV, Xbox, Xbox360, PS2, HTPC experience!

With all Xbox 360 games defaulting to 720p and widescreen format, it's time to drop the coin on a projector.

There's been some concerns on this forum about the price of lamp replacements. In a little under two years, I've purchase one lamp for 325.00. A quick search shows new lamps for Z2s at 286.00 now. I use my projector a ton. I removed my first lamp at 1,376 hours and set it aside as my backup. I removed my second lamp today after a whopping 2,689 hours and put my first lamp back into the projector for a slightly brigher picture and now have my second lamp as a backup.

I've put a total of 4,130 hours on my projector over 21 months. That's 6.5 hours a day if you use the projector every single day. Hell, on weekends, I've run it 12-14 hours or more in one sitting. So, even if you're an insane level user like me, you'll get two years out of the original purchase and one extra lamp. They key is not abusing the lamp which simply means not turning the lamp back on for 30 minutes after turning it off and leaving the lamp on for two hours minimum the first time you use a new one to distribute the mercury coating evenly. That's not too hard eh? Leaving the projector on for an hour or more after turning it on helps as well. Just don't turn it on and off like a house lamp.

If you're not on a 1K budget and can consider the latest generation of 1260X720 projectors for around 2K street, read this article and then the individual reviews on the same site for the best info.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/720p_projectors.htm

Projector Central is an excellent resource for reviews.

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » December 24, 2005, 5:07 am

Being a newb about projectors, I'm inclined to ask how big of a screen you project onto.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 24, 2005, 8:03 am

My screen is 10 feet (120" diagonal) You can make them smaller if needed and larger (12.5 feet - 150") if you have a big room but a 10 foot screen is probably as big as you want to get.

There are three projectors to consider in the 2K range.

Sanyo Z4, generally considered the best and also least expensive. (nice combo!)

http://www.projectorcentral.com/sanyo_plv-z4.htm

Panasonic AE900, a little brighter and eliminates screen door even extremely close up at the expensive of sharpness compared to Z4. (it's not an issue on my Z2 and the Z4 is improved over it so unless you need to be closer than recommended, not a big deal)

http://www.projectorcentral.com/panasonic_ae900.htm

Epson Cinema 550, most expensive but brightest projector.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/epson_cinema_550.htm

The article I posted in the first post:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/720p_projectors.htm

may help fine tune choices.

Syenye · Post by **Syenye** » December 24, 2005, 4:30 pm

thanks winnow... i've been going back and forth between a tv and projector. any suggestions for home theater sound?

valryte · Post by **valryte** » December 25, 2005, 1:01 am

I was able to pick up an Infocus X3 for $835 when Circuit City had this online only deal for 2 days after Thanksgiving, regular price is 1200. This is my first projector, so I wasn't about to drop 2-3K just yet. A friend of mine has a X1 and I've seen plenty of movies on it, so I'm fine with any of the cons that come with a dual use projector. Plus, I'm also looking at getting a new AV receiver and speakers, and being more of an audio guy, I'm spending more on that first. I'm currently looking at a Denon AV receiver. Also, this projector will go in my computer room when I decide to upgrade it

Ransure · Post by **Ransure** » December 25, 2005, 2:48 am

Didnt read the article... but the Sony HS51 or the Sharp XVZ2000 werent given any love? I know they are the 3.5k range... but worth looks. I put a HS20 in my Dads house (Sye, youve even seen it!) and they can be had for pretty cheap these days. A good friend of mine has the Z1 at his house and its tolerable (480p/lots o screendoor).

Bang for the buck on HT speakers Sye, check out Cambridge Soudworks (if asked, it can never be said that I reccomend them.. but very high bang for the buck). Receivers, dont skimp, if you can get something with HDMI switching, at the very least component switching Yamaha, Denon and Pioneer Elite are my favorites here.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 25, 2005, 3:39 am

Ransure wrote:Didnt read the article... but the Sony HS51 or the Sharp XVZ2000 werent given any love? I know they are the 3.5k range... but worth looks. I put a HS20 in my Dads house (Sye, youve even seen it!) and they can be had for pretty cheap these days. A good friend of mine has the Z1 at his house and its tolerable (480p/lots o screendoor).

Read the article Ransure, you might start putting Z4's in homes. 3.5K is out of the price range for first time buyers and the target audience of this thread. I wouldn't buy one more expensive than in the 2K range. It's a very small gain after the 2K projectors, if any, until you hit the 6-10K projectors. DLP projectors are now way overpriced with the release of the latest generation LCDs. (Z4, AE900, etc) It would help if you actually read the article so I don't have to retype it! NM, I'll quote it below to save the .0002 calories it takes to click on a link. The paragraphs won't be as wide as the browser and in that kind of greyed out text that quotes have in VV posts, if you actually click on the link though. Easier reading.

I wouldn't recommend the Z1. At this point, you should at least be buying a native 1280X720 projector as it's all about HDTV and next gen consoles like Xbox 360 and PS3 that are all native 720p. If you can't afford the Z2 at 999.00, I'd wait. The Z3 runs ~1,300 and is another option under 2K that's 1280X720 until they stop selling them.

The New 720p Projectors – A Personal View

Evan Powell, November 18, 2005

ProjectorCentral.com

As regular readers are aware, we are seeing quite a few dramatic new product releases in the world of 720p resolution home theater projectors at the moment. We have already reviewed the Sanyo PLV-Z4, the Panasonic PT-AE900U, and the Mitsubishi HC3000. We are currently looking at the Epson Cinema 550 and the Hitachi HDPJ52, but those reviews have not been completed as of yet. We are awaiting arrival of a new sample of the BenQ PE7700, as BenQ says that this unit has been upgraded since its release six months ago. My intent was to look at all of these units, then provide some overall commentary as to how they stack up. Ultimately we will do that.

However, we are getting email asking for us to compare the AE900, the PLV-Z4, and the HC3000. Waiting another month before posting a full assessment of all of the 720p products would lead to some frustration among readers who are eager to make some decisions for the holidays. So I want to take a moment to give you my personal impressions of what is going on in the world of 720p resolution home theater projectors, at least as I view it so far. These will be interim observations that I will modify and expand upon as we gain further experience with the entire complement of products in this category.

I'd also like to emphasize that the comments below are based upon my preferences and personal tastes. Be aware that my tastes may not be yours, and reasonable people looking at two different projectors side by side can come to different conclusions as to which one is "best." Thus, I will try to describe what I see, and why I prefer what I do. But take my comments, along with those of any other reviewer, with a grain of salt. There is clearly room for more than one opinion on the ideal trade-offs between features, image quality, and selling price.

Overview

Until several months ago, the traditional market dynamics related to DLP and LCD 720p projectors remained unthreatened: DLP continued to be recognized as a superior video technology, and LCD was the lower cost alternative that, while not matching DLP performance, offered exceptional price/performance. But with the release of the Sanyo PLV-Z4 and the Panasonic AE900, the truth has changed. These products represent major leaps forward in video quality, and they have largely closed the performance gap with their DLP competition. Moreover, they do so while retaining their aggressive price points, selling at street prices in the low $2,000 range as did their predecessors. Suddenly, then, we are seeing a startling paradigm shift—LCD projectors that can meet, and in many important respects exceed the performance of DLP projectors that are more expensive.

In prior generations, there was no question that DLP projectors were superior in black level, contrast, and muted pixel structure. Despite the fact that LCD projectors could often outperform DLP in color saturation, their comparative deficiencies in these other areas meant that DLP could continue to command higher prices. However, this is no longer the case. The Panasonic AE900 has eliminated all trace of pixel structure, and now outperforms DLP products in this regard. And while the Sanyo PLV-Z4 has a more distinctive pixel structure, the high resolution 1280x720 format along with the reduction in interpixel gap has made visible pixel structure an inconsequential issue.

Both the Panasonic AE900 and the Sanyo PLV-Z4 have improved black levels and dynamic range that substantially reduces the critical performance advantage that DLP has always relied upon. The PLV-Z4 allows the user to adjust the black level and contrast through a manual iris that can be set at any one of 64 positions between its maximum and minimum settings. As the iris is closed, lumen output decreases, and blacks and contrast are improved. This allows the Z4 to be set to optimize performance in either a completely darkened theater room, or in a room with modest ambient light and light-colored reflective surfaces. The ideal setting will depend upon the room environment, the screen size, and the user's aesthetic preferences. But when the iris is closed down toward the maximum end of the adjustment range, the Z4 can come reasonably close to replicating the performance of DLP in terms of black levels and contrast. Meanwhile, the AE900 is even better at approaching the black levels of DLP than is the Z4. Nevertheless, DLP still has an incremental advantage over both the Z4 and the AE900 in this respect, but it is no longer a difference of major significance that would outweigh other performance criteria.

The least expensive of the 720p widescreen DLP projectors at the moment are the Mitsubishi HC3000, the BenQ PE7700, and the Sharp Z2000, all selling for under $3,000. In addition, the HC3000 has the honor of being the first DLP projector to come to market with TI's new BrilliantColor(TM) processing. Yet these DLP products are still selling for more than the new LCD products from Sanyo and Panasonic. Is there any performance advantage that warrants the higher price?

Personally, I do not see it. I have spent a great deal of time viewing these projectors side by side with identical sources. And the simple fact is that, while each of them has unique advantages over the others, if I were to select one for my own use while ignoring price as a factor, I would select the Sanyo Z4. Here are the reasons: First, I see a sharper image on the Z4 than I do on virtually any other projector under $10,000 other than the BenQ 8720, which also has a razor sharp image. I value this extremely sharp image acuity over most other performance criteria.

There are a number of other features that I like about the Z4 as well. It has a combination of beautiful color saturation, black level, and contrast that makes me sit back and say, "Now that is a terrific picture." I like the ability to adjust the iris to meet the varying needs of my projection environment, from Super Bowl party to serious theater. The fan noise is non-existent. It comes with a three-year warranty. And I like the automatic shut down of the lamp after five minutes of inactivity to save lamp life. The automatic closing of the lens housing upon shutdown is very cool. Finally, the 2x zoom lens and extensive lens shift mean I can put it in virtually any room on a rear shelf without the muss and fuss of ceiling mounting. What more can one want from a home theater projector?

Of course, there are those who would take exception to this assessment. Many will prefer the Panasonic AE900 because it has zero pixelation. And if you sit very close to the screen, that is a very legitimate issue. I don't like to sit that close to a screen because I don't like the feeling of sitting in the front row of a tennis match—my head and eyes get weary moving from side to side. When I go to a movie theater I tend to sit more than half way back so I can see the full screen without a lot of physical head or eye movement on my part to assimilate it. Accordingly, I tend to sit back to a distance of about 1.7 times the screen width in my home theater for the same reason. However, there are those who like the all-enveloping feeling of a massive picture in front of their noses, and they sit closer to the screen—a good friend of mine thinks 1.2 times the screen with is just right for him. For these folks, the AE900 will offer a pixel-free viewing experience that the Z4 cannot. The Z4 has a sharper image than the AE900, but this is only obvious in a side by side comparison; standing alone the AE900 looks reasonably sharp, and certainly comparable to most DLP products it is put up against; it is not anything an AE900 user would notice as a deficiency.

Then there are those who would opt for the Mitsubishi HC3000 over either of the LCD products. The primary image quality advantage of the HC3000 is an incrementally deeper black level, and better shadow detail in dark scenes. For those who crave the deepest blacks possible, the HC3000 will have strong appeal. There is also the issue of the 768 line native display, which is ideal for XGA and WXGA computer signals. I don't use those formats in my home theater, so the 768-line format is of no use to me. But for those who do want to project native 768 line signals without compression or cropping, the HC3000 will do it, while the others will not. Then there is the filter-free feature that is unique on the HC3000--a great benefit that eliminates having to think about cleaning that filter every couple of months.

On the other hand, I personally find the HC3000's picture overall to be softer and noisier than that of the Z4, and the Z4's color saturation is superior; meanwhile, I find the black levels on the Z4, although not quite as deep, to be adequate to produce a thoroughly satisfying image. However, that is just my personal preference. Others would argue that incremental black level and better resolution of shadow details that are apparent on the HC3000 are hugely important, and that the HC3000's image is to be preferred for these reasons.

As noted in the HC3000 review, a limitation of the HC3000 is the short 1.2x zoom range and the lack of physical lens shift. Thus the optimal installation of the HC3000 for many users will be to ceiling mount it. Frankly, the last thing I want to do is ceiling mount a projector. I do not want to spend extra money on the ceiling mount and long run video cables; I do not want to run cables through the ceiling and walls and patch up the drywall afterward. And I do not want to pay a custom installer to do it all for me. What I want is to be able to tuck the projector away on a shelf on a rear wall, and simply adjust the zoom lens and lens shift controls to fill the screen on my front wall.

Last year Panasonic led the industry with the innovative 2.0x zoom lens and associated lens shift on the AE700. I was extremely enthused by that development, as it opened up a huge consumer market. It meant that no matter what your room size and desired screen size, the odds were significantly increased that you could install the AE700 on a bookshelf and avoid the cost and nuisance of the ceiling mount. People want home theater, but they want it to be easy and inexpensive to install. The long zoom range plus lens shift that Panasonic introduced delivers just that.

Conclusion

This year, Sanyo's PLV-Z4 has matched the 2.0x zoom range of its competition from Panasonic, and added the numerous other performance features noted above. For my tastes, it is an outstanding projector that outperforms every other 720p projector that we've put it up against so far, whether it be LCD or DLP. The fact that it is also the least expensive of the new 720p products, as well as one of the few to include a standard 3-year warranty, is a strange anomaly in the marketplace to be sure. But someone at Sanyo decided to get very aggressive this year, and they did it in spades. It is difficult to beat the overall value proposition represented by the Z4.

The Panasonic AE900 is also one of the elite price/performers on the market in the 720p category, selling for a very aggressive price in the low $2,000s. Many consumers will prefer it to the Z4 due to the absence of pixelation and its exceptional color accuracy. Together with the Z4, these two models represent a one-two punch that will cause many people to question the traditional supremacy of DLP as the preferred video technology. Few people expected LCD to show this well against its DLP competition.

The Mitsubishi HC3000 is an aggressively priced WXGA resolution DLP projector with unique features that are absent from the LCD competition, such as native 768-line display and maintenance-free operation as far as filters are concerned. It is one of the lowest priced DLP products in this general resolution group, and produces a picture that is equal to or better than many more expensive DLP products. Deep black levels and good shadow detail are strong suits, and for those who place a premium value on these picture attributes, the HC3000 is an excellent choice for the money. The optics produce some inherent restrictions as to where it can be placed to achieve a particular image size, but if it fits into your viewing space geometry it will produce a brilliant sparkling picture that will dazzle friends and neighbors.

Hopefully this overview will clarify some of the salient differences between these extraordinary new 720p projectors, and help you to decide which of them might be the right one for your new home theater. They are each strong enough competitors to attract an avid following, and there is certain to be ongoing debate among home theater enthusiasts as to which of them may be the "best" overall projector in this price and resolution class.

Throw in the Epson projector for consideration as the article doesn't cover it:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/epson_cinema_550.htm

Peeps concerned about lighting should check out the Epson for sure.

valryte · Post by **valryte** » December 25, 2005, 6:03 am

Receivers, dont skimp, if you can get something with HDMI switching, at the very least component switching Yamaha, Denon and Pioneer Elite are my favorites here.

Yup, that is one the reason I'm looking at the Denon recievers. I'm looking at something like the <A HREF="http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/224 ... VR-4306</A>. The <A HREF="http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/237 ... VR-4806</A> might be a tad overkill hehe. Video up-conversion is probably the main reason I'm looking at these types of receivers.

At this point, you should at least be buying a native 1280X720 projector as it's all about HDTV and next gen consoles like Xbox 360 and PS3 that are all native 720p.

Yeah, if you are going to get a projector, don't bother with anything that isn't native 1280X720. Anything less is simply a waste of money.

Ransure · Post by **Ransure** » December 25, 2005, 2:37 pm

Still havent read the article (but now that it takes no exta effort on my part I will!)...

But, Im not a Sanyo dealer for a reason, I dont want to compete with manufactuers that whore thier products out on the internet. People pay more to have someone like me design thier theater. And I expect between 35-45% margins on everything I sell(industry avg is about 20-30%).

Ransure · Post by **Ransure** » December 25, 2005, 2:40 pm

I dont think the 4306 is shipping yet... but it looks like a great bang for the buck. Youll get awesome sound quality out of that peice, and the ability to use it for whole home distributed audio.

Val, what type of speakers are you looking at? Thats a pretty beefy receiver.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 25, 2005, 5:41 pm

Ransure wrote:Still havent read the article (but now that it takes no exta effort on my part I will!)...

But, Im not a Sanyo dealer for a reason, I dont want to compete with manufactuers that whore thier products out on the internet. People pay more to have someone like me design thier theater. And I expect between 35-45% margins on everything I sell(industry avg is about 20-30%).

Sanyo sells their products on the internet to the benefit of consumers, not you as a dealer. They also have a three year warranty which is desirable for a projector. I had an initial focus uniformity issue with my projector and Sanyo paid to have it overnighted to their service center, repaired, and overnighted back all with a one day turnaround. It's a shame for the end consumer if you're making them pay more for projectors to fill your pockets. Nothing against you making money but I'm not here for that. : ) I'm trying to provide the best bang for the buck for someone interested in a new projector for the first time.

Closing in on two years, I may need to replace the blue polarizer plate. It's nice to know I can send it in to Sanyo and have it replaced under warranty. I don't think there are many projector manufacturers out there with a three year warranty.

Ransure · Post by **Ransure** » December 25, 2005, 7:26 pm

I dont think they are bad projectors by any means.... and with the amount of information out there these days its not too hard for someone to do a front projection theater without someone like me.

But the reason that dealers like me are still in business is to deal with a higher end clientel. Thats just not the business that Im in.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » December 25, 2005, 8:57 pm

I am waiting until the projector gives me an image as clean as a 27 inch tv I can buy for $287 for the same price or better.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 25, 2005, 9:36 pm

Price can't compete but for clarity, 1280X720 1:1 pixel mapping is as clear as it's going to get for 720P format. Your 27" TV is missing about 240 lines of resolution and is radiating you with its electro magnetic field!

The problem for most is that it's almost impossible to find a properly setup projector to view for yourself.

Ransure · Post by **Ransure** » December 26, 2005, 3:48 pm

If your going to be buying something on the internet... why would a dealer setup space in one of thier showrooms, and take the time to calibrate a projector so you can not give him any business?....

Winnow, love the new avatar

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 26, 2005, 6:42 pm

Ransure wrote:If your going to be buying something on the internet... why would a dealer setup space in one of thier showrooms, and take the time to calibrate a projector so you can not give him any business?....

Winnow, love the new avatar

I'm talking about projectors in general. Fry's has about six of them setup in an open-sided tent-booth in the middle of a brightly lit room. The projectors are facing up, projecting onto little 50" canvas thingies within the tent. I wouldn't buy a projector if that's what I thought it would look like at home. Only high end electronics stores have showrooms dedicated to projectors and even then they will typically demonstrate the most expensive players, because, like you, they want to make money.

Thankfully, AVS Forums has a highly active user base that posts like mad about their projectors. The good, and even moreso, the bad so you can judge for yourself and get a clear idea of the positives and negatives of the projectors you can't see and, unless you ask a question that has been answered a hundred times before if you do a search, your specific question will be answered to further help you along in your decision. One thing to note, the AVS Forum people are extremely anal about the quality of picture they pursue so when they critique a projector, it typically sounds like it's a major change when the difference between two projectors may not even be noticable. You've got to have a little determination going in there to research, if the first bad thing you hear about something will turn you off, you won't buy anything...ever...I haven't seen a single electronic gizmo that hasn't had something bad said about it. (I don't like iPods, so there. Hate the UI...that touch wheel is lame imo...now is that going to stop you from pouring money into Apple's vault? Nope!) With projectors, the issues are relative. I remember DLP lovers saying not to get LCDs because you they have a screen door effect (you can see the individual pixels)...I can't see shit. (20/20). If you walk up to the screen, you can see them, but who the hell is going to be sitting 3 feet from a 10 foot screen? DLP's color wheels! You'll see rainbows! (etc)

I can say this with confidence. Buying a projector (720X1280) and playing a high definition source on it the first (and 1000th) time is a jaw droping experience in your home and the most satisfying purchase you'll make in the home theater arena. There are threads, piled upon more threads, of husbands who have had wives that whine about why they shouldn't get a projector and then pull a 180 as soon as they watch their first movie on it...or first HDTV weekly show on it.

The WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) is a hard thing to conquer:

Think evolution and 3 to 5 million years of human males and their predecessors as the primary hunters, warriors and protectors, seeking high ground, hilltops, or even mountains in some cases - to spot and find the prey and plan the hunt, or ready for the battle with oncoming intruders first viewed from distant locales - all of this meant the need to have highest resolution expansive viewing available at the time - basically human vision from good vantage points

Compare this to the typical female gatherer/nuturer focused on a limited territory spending time near the dwelling or cave - having little or no need for these expansive detailed viewings.

Bottom line is: women in modern times (still carrying this evolutionary baggage) as a general rule don't much care for high resolution broadcasts. They tend to be agnostic on this issue, and therefore really don't much care one way or the other. You could drop 200k on a Christie world class 3 chip DLP projector , have a 20 ft diagonal screen - and many spouses would watch the same HD movie on a 27" in non HD and think nothing about it and have no regrets

Its just not in their genes

A new method of finding a spouse is to head to a bar and see which women are watching the HD screens as opposed to the standard definition screens (even if they are closer)

Ransure · Post by **Ransure** » December 27, 2005, 12:37 am

Winnow wrote:
I'm talking about projectors in general. Fry's has about six of them setup in an open-sided tent-booth in the middle of a brightly lit room. The projectors are facing up, projecting onto little 50" canvas thingies within the tent. I wouldn't buy a projector if that's what I thought it would look like at home. Only high end electronics stores have showrooms dedicated to projectors and even then they will typically demonstrate the most expensive players, because, like you, they want to make money.

Exactly, in all of my 11 showrooms the least expensive projector I have on dispaly is $3.5k, the most expensive is $30k with most of the stuff on display and calibrated between $10-25k....

AVSforum is awesome if your a DIY'er. Definately take what people say with a grain of salt there. Video is a very subjective thing, what is unwatchable to one person might be unnoticeable to you. Buying a projector that you can return if you dont like it is a plus also... but these days just about anything you get will be an improvement on what youve been watching.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 27, 2005, 12:58 am

Ransure wrote: AVSforum is awesome if your a DIY'er. Definately take what people say with a grain of salt there. Video is a very subjective thing, what is unwatchable to one person might be unnoticeable to you.

I wouldn't say take their comments with a grain of salt. I would say read multiple opinions as one viewpoint doesn't cut it with projectors. Read hundreds and then balance it out. Most popular projectors have threads several hundred posts in length and then many other spin off threads. I bought the Z2 sight-unseen but that was after months of research knowing exactly what potential problems may occur and what to expect.

I take my car to the shop because I have no desire to fix it myself for the most part. When I do fix it myself, I save hundreds of dollars by buying the parts cheaper and of course, saving the labor charges. People that you service get worked on price in the same manner but it's the price you pay for not researching things yourself. Paying more is not always better which in this case can be more than 10K of wasted money.

Ebumar · Post by **Ebumar** » December 27, 2005, 6:28 pm

Winnow, cany you post a pic of your current setup. I was talking with my girlfriend about this as being a good solution for us for the switch to digital. I was wondering if you have one giant blank wall that looks out of place? Pics prz~

thanks

Ransure · Post by **Ransure** » December 27, 2005, 6:32 pm

Heres a few pics of a nice FR setup with a projector, the wall is actually a light blue mixed with grey, but it works ok.

Heres what it looks like in HD

Ebumar · Post by **Ebumar** » December 27, 2005, 6:34 pm

Ah, so there is a giant blank wall. Well, my girlfriend can't have that, so looks like I'm saving for a TV.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 27, 2005, 8:22 pm

Those are just plain fucking horrid pictures Ransure. It looks like some saleman at K-mart took those trying to convince a customer to go with a 27" special tv.

It's hard to take a decent picture of a projected image but there are better ones than that out there. I'll search fro some later.

Ebumar wrote:Ah, so there is a giant blank wall. Well, my girlfriend can't have that, so looks like I'm saving for a TV.

Where did you expect to watch a 120" image? There are various types of screens, you can get pull down screens, automated screens that drop out of the ceiling so when not watching them you can stare at a pretty flower mural or whatever your girlfriend gets excited over seeing.

It's hard to show screen size, but here's a picture I found of a determined person that wanted a big screen in a small space. You can see their bed below the blurry pic (if it doesn't red-x)

That looks like a pull down type...there may even be a window behind it...who knows!

With projectors, and Ransure isn't being much help with those god aweful pictures, you can see why they aren't mainstream yet with the difficulty in displaying them...I can relate things though...for those that have Dell 24" LCDs....know how nice those look and how happy you are with them? You'll have the same satisfaction level with a 1280X720 projector. (well close! I love my 24" LCD! You don't have to choose!)

Ransure · Post by **Ransure** » December 27, 2005, 9:15 pm

Slow shutter speed didnt help on that first pic

Yes, there are much better ways to take pictures of a FP image, and that is a 480p projector on a flat wall. A screen is a definate big difference.

My next TV is going to be a Sony HS51 projector with a ChromaView 80" screen (uses polarized light to brighten the image in a bright room).

Ebumar · Post by **Ebumar** » December 27, 2005, 10:52 pm

Rofl, that's funny. I'm going to show it to her, we'll she what she says.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 27, 2005, 11:04 pm

Here's some low budget setups!

Some dude with a white sheet:

That's a tiny screen below:

Those projected images above came from a do-it-yourself project:

Come on people! That contraption costs $436.00 to make ($1,500 if you go through Ransure!

) according to the website, you can spring for a little more!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 27, 2005, 11:26 pm

Here's a few more sensible screens:

Syenye · Post by **Syenye** » December 31, 2005, 6:59 pm

here's my problem with my media room: it has a balcony, and that means lots of unwanted natural light. i'm looking for something to put up that blocks the light, but isn't too ugly (and a little more chic than foil on the windows). any suggestions?

Ransure · Post by **Ransure** » December 31, 2005, 8:45 pm

Sye, go to next day blinds or sumtin and ask about solar shades... you can even get a sliding shade that has a blackout layer and a nice layer that lets some light through.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 22, 2006, 3:05 pm

I just bought a Sanyo Z4 today to replace my Sanyo Z2 from 2+ years ago.

The Z4's been out for awhile so I got it for 1589.00 which includes an extra lamp (those are 300+ each) and a free 92" Pull down screen. I doubt I'll use the Screen but the free lamp kicks ass as you'll probably have to purchase at least one lamp in a projector's lifetime so typically you would add 300.00 to the price...with a free lamp thrown in, I'm good for the life of this projector even at my very high usage levels.

Upgrading from the Z2 to the Z4 gives me more contrast, more lumens (brighter picture), deeper picture, better colors, better cooling solution while at the same time making the projector virtually silent, sharper picture, easier cleaning of LCD panels if needed with access holes on bottom of projector, and vertical banding free.

The lamp on my Z2 is freaking old (probably 2500 hours on it) so it was time to buy a new lamp...I pondered 300.00 for a new lamp or 1589 for two lamps and a projector two generations newer...1589 wins with no lamp purchases needed again.

My Z2 has 5,000 hours on it in about 27 month's time. If you have the room that can handle a projector, I highly recommend Sanyo's Z line. The Z4 is 1280x720P. There will be affordable 1080P projectors available next year but you'll still be looking at around 2500/3K for those and first generation issues. I like the track record and spend some time reading the massive threads on the Z4 to make sure there were no issues since it's been out 4 months or so.

Just a heads up for those still thinking about projectors. 1589 is a lot less for a HD display that gives a bigger picture than rear projection or panel solutions for a lot less. I walked around Fry's considering even the 5K standard rear, lcd and plasma models and got sick to my stomach at the image quality vs the new Home Theater Front Projectors.

Ready for the NFL season!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 22, 2006, 5:31 pm

BTW, Visual Apex is the place I ordered my original Z2 from and now my Z4:

http://www.visualapex.com/avs/

My original Z2 had some focus issues and Visual Apex did a great job helping me get in contact with the Sanyo Service Center. Sanyo paid to overnight my projector to them, fixed it in a day, then returned it overnight to me at no cost.

My Z2 has a 3 year warranty...the Z4 has a 4 year warranty...that's a LONG warranty for a projector. (most other projectors are one year)

I won't know about my Z4 for another week or so but so far, so good. I already have my tracking number a few hours after placing the order.

If going the online route, Visual Apex is worth putting on your short list.

Kluden · Post by **Kluden** » June 22, 2006, 6:01 pm

Want to sell the Z2 and the new screen you're getting?

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » June 22, 2006, 7:24 pm

stragi likes hand-me-downs sir.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 22, 2006, 7:29 pm

Kluden wrote:Want to sell the Z2 and the new screen you're getting?

Im picturing two 10 foot screens during football season. I have vaulted ceilings so can fit another full sized screen above my current one. Going to play around using one projector for PC and one for HD in the same stacked way as well.

Keeping the Z2 for now!

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » June 22, 2006, 7:33 pm

This thread reminded me how much Panic Room sucked.

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » June 22, 2006, 8:58 pm

football is a waste of a 10-foot screen!

Kluden · Post by **Kluden** » June 22, 2006, 9:03 pm

Damn! Oh well, I R jealous of you football double 10 foot setup, can they do PIP as well?

I just want to try this stuff out, and used is my best bet

let me know if it doesn't work out with the multiscreening.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » June 24, 2006, 11:35 pm

holy bejeezus,

The fact that you dropped 1600 on a television only 2 years after dropping 2k on a television is shocking to me, but maybe I'd do the same if I had more money. What's really shocking, though, is this:

I've put a total of 4,130 hours on my projector over 21 months. That's 6.5 hours a day if you use the projector every single day. Hell, on weekends, I've run it 12-14 hours or more in one sitting.

Do you work from home or something? How on earth do you have enough time to put 4100 hours on your television over less than two years? Do you leave it on while you sleep?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 25, 2006, 3:36 pm

Sueven wrote:holy bejeezus,

The fact that you dropped 1600 on a television only 2 years after dropping 2k on a television is shocking to me, but maybe I'd do the same if I had more money. What's really shocking, though, is this:

I've put a total of 4,130 hours on my projector over 21 months. That's 6.5 hours a day if you use the projector every single day. Hell, on weekends, I've run it 12-14 hours or more in one sitting.
Do you work from home or something? How on earth do you have enough time to put 4100 hours on your television over less than two years? Do you leave it on while you sleep?

Sunday in the NFL...

1.5 hours: Pregame (thank my FFL hobby for that)
3 hours: Early Game
3 hours: Late Game
1 hour: NFL Primetime
3 hours:Night Game

(DirecTV NFL Season Ticket so I could flip or watch any game being played)

That's 11.5 hours every Sunday during Football Season...and that's before watching the same day Tivo'd:

1 Hour: Supranos (last two, seasons)
1 Hour: Deadwood
30 mins: Entourage

That gave me a solid 14 hours every Sunday.

As for the rest of the hours, typically, I'd turn on my Projector, which is in the same room as my main computer, when I get home from work and either

-watch a Tivo'd movie, DVD or Xvid/Divx movie from my PC (via Zoomplayer and FDDSHow Filters to improve and upscale DVDs and other PD formats)
-have basketball games on (add up the 82 Suns games at 2.5 hours each minimum)
-watch some documentaries/educational type stuff
-switch my computer display to the projector screen and surf in style
-Use the projector as a second computer screen while EQ'ing or doing something else on the computer.
-Use my projector screen to play PS2, Xbox (and now Xbox 360)

So I'd have my projector screen on typically 6 hours a night for whatever reason above.

Overall, I got my money's worth out of the projector (and still have it!). If you take the price per hour of the Projector vs Plasmas, other HD displays out there, it's no contest that it was the best value per hour viewed.

This go around, I doubt I'll put as many hours on the new projector as my viewing habits and priorities have changed (will probably buy a second 2405 monitor for dual PC screen or HDTV/360 use and not turn on the projector all the time. Even then, I'll probably buy another one in two years or so if there's a reason to (1080P, lumens, etc) when those features drop under 2K.

Lately, the only time I've had my projector on is for the NBA playoffs (in HD), some World Cup Soccer (HD), Deadwood and Entourage. NFL season approaches though and I'm thinking it will be nice to have a second 10 foot screen to flip through the other games, keep live FFL stats on, etc. or maybe get a little IMAX effect going with dual DVI output to both projectors from my PC to both screens.

Back to the basics...watching movies (and HD content) on an HD capable big screen projector is fucking awesome even if you don't use it for the other things I do.

Zeep · Post by **Zeep** » June 26, 2006, 11:53 am

I just got a Z4 from projectorpeople.com as well under this same deal. It really is a great bargain when you throw in the lamp and screen. This is my first projector and the screen is amazing.

I will say this, I was not ready for how much setup work was involved to get it looking right. It's a lot more work than just dropping in a TV. You have to factor in light, throw distance, screen surface, long cables, etc etc. Also, if you want things to look good, running cables behind walls, speakers, curtains, paint, etc etc.

They payoff for all the work is a giant screen that looks amazing, but it is a big job that I would guess most people would not want to do. I had to fiddle with color settings for each source (and still do) but I think I have it almost all set for my usual stuff. I'm still waiting on the screen and extra lamp to come in; right now I'm throwing it up on a painted wall which I'm OK with, but I think a real screen will look much better. We will see...

A hint on cables, DVI -> HDMI (PC to Projector) 15 foot cable is $100+ dollars retail. I got one on eBay for .99 cents + 9 dollars shipping and it works perfectly. It's pretty thick and seems to be good quality as well, so I was happy (big improvement over component out as well...)

Winn let me know how the Z4 compares to the Z2. I'd be interested in what you think...

Zeep

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 26, 2006, 1:28 pm

Zeep wrote:I just got a Z4 from projectorpeople.com as well under this same deal. It really is a great bargain when you throw in the lamp and screen. This is my first projector and the screen is amazing.

I will say this, I was not ready for how much setup work was involved to get it looking right. It's a lot more work than just dropping in a TV. You have to factor in light, throw distance, screen surface, long cables, etc etc. Also, if you want things to look good, running cables behind walls, speakers, curtains, paint, etc etc.

They payoff for all the work is a giant screen that looks amazing, but it is a big job that I would guess most people would not want to do. I had to fiddle with color settings for each source (and still do) but I think I have it almost all set for my usual stuff. I'm still waiting on the screen and extra lamp to come in; right now I'm throwing it up on a painted wall which I'm OK with, but I think a real screen will look much better. We will see...

A hint on cables, DVI -> HDMI (PC to Projector) 15 foot cable is $100+ dollars retail. I got one on eBay for .99 cents + 9 dollars shipping and it works perfectly. It's pretty thick and seems to be good quality as well, so I was happy (big improvement over component out as well...)

Winn let me know how the Z4 compares to the Z2. I'd be interested in what you think...

Zeep

Zeep!

Shhhhh on the work involved! You're going to scare people away! : )

You can definately tweak away on the Z4. The Z4 is known as the hobbiest's projector due to it's extensive tweakability. If you haven't been there already Zeep, there's a big Z4 tweek thread with various settings to try on the AVS Forums. ROne is one name I recall that has some settings to try.

My Z4 is scheduled to arrive tomorrow (Tuesday),so after calling out sick for the NBA draft on Wednesday, I should have some thoughts on it all. I'm positive the Z4 will look better right away as my Z2 lamp has 2500 hours on it so the brightness, while already lower than the brighter Z4, is dim so the Z4 is going to look great...I'll be comparing the contrast, colors, sharpness, etc. I'll take into account comparing an old lamp to the new lamp in the Z4 when evaluating the two.

You said the picture is amazing but are tweaking a lot...is it a case of being anal (like me) about picture quality or are there real issues? DVI(HDMI) and Component do have separate settings so you need to adjust those separately.

Did you use the Ultra Flat Pure White? (think that's the name of it) from Home Depot to paint your wall? The lamp and screen are going to take 4-8 weeks to get to you if it's the same deal as Visual Apex is running.

Heed Zeep's warnings about the setup people. I was prepared for it and planned out the location in the back of my living room for the projector and Home Theater Equipment so the only long cables I had were the ones running to the front speakers and a 10 foot DVI>DVI (which will be DVI>HDMI for the Z4) running to my computer.

Was your wife happy at least that you bought curtains? : ) hehe

Syenye · Post by **Syenye** » June 26, 2006, 1:34 pm

how much work do you put into maintaining the home theater setup? i've been trying to get my dad to go this route, and i'm willing to set it up for him, but i don't want him calling 5 times a week asking me how to turn the damn thing on.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 26, 2006, 1:56 pm

Syenye wrote:how much work do you put into maintaining the home theater setup? i've been trying to get my dad to go this route, and i'm willing to set it up for him, but i don't want him calling 5 times a week asking me how to turn the damn thing on.

I haven't touched my Z2 for a year except for hitting the power button.

There are things to be aware of though, such as not abusing the lamp by turning it on and off quickly which will shorten its life.

Short check list:

-Going to need a wall large enough and painted (Ultra Flat Pure White recommended) white or an actual screen (greywolfe screens are the best 1.8 gain low cost screens)

-need to be aware that your projector will be ceiling mounted or on a shelf/table at the back of your room so the video cables will need to be long enough to reach between the projector and where your cable/satellite/tuner/PC/gaming console sources are. (typically using an input switch box is best if you have many sources of HD to feed your projector (this is the same as if you had many sources for a normal HD TV as well though)

-need to be aware that you can't have a bright room. need some light control and definately no direct sunlight (it has the same affect on the picture as it has on vampires exposed to direct sunlight)

Those are the key items to be aware of.

Deward · Post by **Deward** » June 26, 2006, 2:08 pm

I bought an entry level projector for about $450. It is actually a pretty crappy picture but I am glad I got in for cheap and could see what a projector can do. I have a 72" picture that gives me about the same level of detail as my 7 year old 34" crt. The side viewing angle is way better than I ever expected though. Light will wash it out pretty easy though. Right now I turn it on when on my computer and keep two ceiling lights on that are about 15' away minimum. I get a decent picture.

Video games are not the greatest on it. I ran my xbox and gauntlet on it and it was kind of hard to play because the detail level sucked a bit. I haven't even attempted my computer yet because I don't think it can handle the text detail enough so I can read it.

The other thing that really sucks is the noise level of a projector. That fan is fucking loud. I need to get my stereo system in soon. As it is now, I can barely hear the projector speakers if I am behind or underneath it.

All I can say is that I got what I paid for. I might look into a better model someday but Plasma is looking nicer right now and it won't require me sitting in the dark all the time. I am watching for good deals now. I might buy another projector if I can find one that will give me a 14' throw for a 72" screen. That would allow me to put the projector behind a wall and block the fan noise.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 26, 2006, 2:42 pm

Deward wrote:I bought an entry level projector for about $450. It is actually a pretty crappy picture but I am glad I got in for cheap and could see what a projector can do. I have a 72" picture that gives me about the same level of detail as my 7 year old 34" crt. The side viewing angle is way better than I ever expected though. Light will wash it out pretty easy though. Right now I turn it on when on my computer and keep two ceiling lights on that are about 15' away minimum. I get a decent picture.

Video games are not the greatest on it. I ran my xbox and gauntlet on it and it was kind of hard to play because the detail level sucked a bit. I haven't even attempted my computer yet because I don't think it can handle the text detail enough so I can read it.

The other thing that really sucks is the noise level of a projector. That fan is fucking loud. I need to get my stereo system in soon. As it is now, I can barely hear the projector speakers if I am behind or underneath it.

All I can say is that I got what I paid for. I might look into a better model someday but Plasma is looking nicer right now and it won't require me sitting in the dark all the time. I am watching for good deals now. I might buy another projector if I can find one that will give me a 14' throw for a 72" screen. That would allow me to put the projector behind a wall and block the fan noise.

Definately keep in mind that he is talking about a 450.00 projector. I didn't even know they sold then that cheap. What's the resolution on that?I'm not sure that's going to show you what a projector can do that's designed to compete with other HDTVs.

Fan noise: should be very quiet on Z4 (zeep can comment, I will in a few days)

Picture quality is going to be totally different on a true HD projector.

Side viewing for projectors destroys anything else. If you buy a high gain screen, you then start to get some fading on the sides as high gain screens use a technology which reflects light in a directional way.

Zeep · Post by **Zeep** » June 26, 2006, 4:18 pm

Paint, yes. Ultra pure flat white, with ultra pure flat black surround (actually the rest of the wall is black.) There are supposed to be some mixtures of paint that are better, but I'm planning to use the screen so I didn't spend too much time researching. The black is still a little reflective as well, so I'd like to go with material or something, but I'm not all the way there yet. The contrast is good enough for me. I've got some heavy drapes on the window so I can control the light pretty well.

As far as noise, I can't hear the thing at all. As far as I'm concerned it's totally silent. My PC is louder than the projector by a long shot, and it's pretty quiet.

Inputs, I run component, HDMI and S-Video. They all have separate settings and I've really had to tweak each of them to get the picture they way I liked it. I use my PC with the HDMI for movies (720p native from the PC) using TheaterTek software. It seems to gives me the best picture.

The Xbox and PS2 are connected via S-Video. They don't look as good as the HDMI input, but they are still amazing. God of War on a 10ft screen and a decent surround system is an experience you shouldn't miss.

The different color tweaks are a must, much more so than on a regular TV (I never messed with color settings on my TVs out of the box, but I had to with the projector.) You HAVE to tweak the color settings for your light and your screen. It's highly dependant on your setup and what you are playing as to what is going to look best.

That being said, I really don't have to mess with the projector now that it's setup other than flipping between a few of the color presets. If you are used to using an AV system, switching inputs, etc etc the projector isn't that much different than using a TV day to day. However, if you are somebody that wants to push the "ON" button and have everything work you'd probably be happier with something else. My wife is this kind of person, and while she like watching stuff on the big screen, I have to turn it on and get it running through the AV system for her.

Zeep

Edit for Winn: No problems with the display as far as clarity, brightness, etc.. The thing works really well... I'm just tweaking the color settings

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 26, 2006, 4:58 pm

Zeep wrote: I use my PC with the HDMI for movies (720p native from the PC) using TheaterTek software. It seems to gives me the best picture.
Zeep

Yeah, TheaterTek uses the NVDVD codec which is the best out there atm. I use Zoomplayer with the NVDVD codec. Zoomplayer, along with FFDSHOW, is a tweakers paradise but not recommended for the average user that just wants to pop in a DVD and go.

As for general ease of use, when my parents were last visiting, they like to get up way before me. I woke up to an earth shattering noise that was my home theater volume close to maxed out as my dad clicked buttons wondering why there was no audio and finally hit the right source. Can't believe my speakers survived the experience!

Zeep · Post by **Zeep** » June 26, 2006, 5:19 pm

By NVDVD, do you mean Nvidias Pure Video? Thats the one I use, and it really makes a huge difference. I looked at zoomplayer + ffdshow and decided configuring it was past the point I wanted to go with the tweaking, but your right I could probably get a little better picture. I get to a point and I just want the damm thing to work, and TheaterTek was my limit. Eventually I'd like a DVD player that can output at that quality just to simplify things, but that's a bunch more money and the pc works fine for what I want.

Do you use a remote with your PC to control zoomplayer functions? It looks like the standard microsoft media center remote will do the job with TheaterTek. I could go wireless keyboard/mouse but I'd prefer a real remote I think.

Zeep

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 26, 2006, 6:36 pm

Zeep wrote:By NVDVD, do you mean Nvidias Pure Video? Thats the one I use, and it really makes a huge difference.
Zeep

Yes, nVidia changed the name to Pure Video but the old school name back when I purchased the codec was NVDVD4 or something like that.

I don't use a remote with while playing movies because my computer is close and half the time I watch from my computer chair instead of plop into the easy chair. I don't have MCE installed but do have the Vista Beta installed and that has a nice Media Center so will probably look into the reMote thing when Vista goes gold.

Been grabbng divx and xvid movies and watching them on the projector from your PC as well?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 28, 2006, 6:51 pm

Zeep wrote: Edit for Winn: No problems with the display as far as clarity, brightness, etc.. The thing works really well... I'm just tweaking the color settings

Hooked up my Z4 last night. I'm happy with the picture and projector for sure but you aren't kidding about the color tweaking : ) the seven preset settings are all radically different.

The Z4 is super quiet compared to the Z2. Very nice! The slightly larger case allows for improved airflow and the larger filters in the back are nice as well. It should help extend lamp life and also prevent heat damage over time to the polarizers.

I sat the Z2 and Z4 side by side and the optics for the Z4 are larger and of higher quality. Cool auto-closing front part as well that the Z2 didn't have.

I'm not used to the auto-iris as the Z2's iris was manual so that's a change im getting used to.

I went to the tweak thread on AVS Forums and entered a few different recommended settings. So far, I like a slightly tweaked "Creative Cinema" setting. It gives the colors some punch which I tend to like. Flesh tones seem most natual under the "Natural" setting...makes sense.

Here's that thread in case you haven't browsed it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=591989

FYI, I'm using component, not HDMI until I either get an adapter for my DVD-DVI cable or buy a DVI-HDMI cable this weekend.

These settings from JSNorth aren't bad (even though they are meant for HDMI) I opened up the iris to -25 instead of -63 though to brighten the picture.

Based off Creative Cinema
HDMI L2
Auto Black stretch OFF
Contrast Ench. OFF
Transient OFF

Brightness -10
Contrast +5
Color +1
Tint 0
RGB +9,0,-1
Sharpness 0
Lamp Low (economy)
Lamo mode Auto
Gamma 0
Lens Iris -63
Gain R 0
Gain G -2
Gain B +1
Offset R -2
Offset G -2
Offset B +6
Gamma R 0
Gamma G 0
Gamma B 0

Also, here's RONE's Z4 tweak doc:

http://www.superlight.plus.com/z4/Z4tweaks.doc