Liar! Liar! Pants on Fire!

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » March 5, 2006, 9:03 pm

The Pentagon's top general acknowledged Sunday that "anything can happen" in Iraq, but he said things aren't as bad as some say. "I wouldn't put a great big smiley face on it, but I would say they're going very very well from everything you look at."

leading to a response...

"Why would I believe him?" asked Rep. John Murtha

Will make for some interesting campaign commercials later this year.

It's looking better for conservatives than the MSM wants us to know.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » March 6, 2006, 12:19 am

Indeed. The greatest quote splice ever from the NSMSM(AKAMetanis). Murtha then went on to explain why this administration has painted optimistic pictures about the war, even when things aren't going as "planned". But I do appreciate your statement that the War on Iraq is actually going to help the Republican machine. Although, as most of the American public has proven, if you say something long enough, people start to listen and believe. Repeat that about fifty more times Metanis, then see if you have converts on this board.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » March 6, 2006, 12:44 am

but he said things aren't as bad as some say.

o rly?

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » March 6, 2006, 1:05 am

Kaldaur wrote:But I do appreciate your statement that the War on Iraq is actually going to help the Republican machine.

Are you really that dense?

First, I did not say anything even remotely resembling the statement which you attribute to me. Perhaps you should read my original post over and try again?

Let me give you a hint. You have a member of Congress coming out on national TV and calling the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs a liar. And you have the facts overwhelmingly favorable to the General. (I earnestly invite you to research some of Murtha's statements, he has no basis for most of his numbers.)

This is a terribly bad move for any elected official. But especially when you are a spokesman for your party. This then becomes an episode that will play over and over during the campaign season. It will repeatedly drive home to the American people that the Democrats are living in a fantasy world and can't be trusted with national security.

I didn't say a single solitary thing about the Republicans. And I don't have to. American's have already pretty well convinced themselves that politicians at the congressional level suck! I can't help it if the Democrats keep finding ways to say "we suck the most".

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » March 6, 2006, 1:14 am

Nick wrote:
but he said things aren't as bad as some say.
o rly?

Perhaps you could enlighten the board with evidence that supports Murtha?

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » March 6, 2006, 2:01 am

Things are getting better? They're about to oust their prime minister. Violence in the past week has risen over, surprise surprise, a bombing of a mosque. The religious war between the two sects is getting closer. What's it been, two years now, and only 30% of their electricity and running water is up and functioning?

Dense, you stupid prickwad? You refer to conservatives, then deny that they are in fact the Republican machine. You refer to how those conservative's have a more positive outlook, and also talk about how the Joint Chiefs of Staff was referring to the Iraq war, and then, when I make a statement about how you believe Republicans (conservative Christians) are going to come out on top from the War in Iraq, you say I'm dense? Did your brain skip a beat between posts 1 and 3? Did you suddenly blank out and not remember that you just posted 58 fucking minutes ago?

Democrats suck the most? I'm not a Republican, I'm not a Democrat, but right now it appears that the only thing Democrats can be convicted of is having a weak spine and no ability to press a political advantage. You can't say the same of the Republicans (conservatives, just trying to help connect the dots for Metanis and other mental midgets). The Chairman is recycling the same talking points that the rest of the Republican attack dogs are filtering through the morning talk shows. Why shouldn't a politician call them out when all known reporting and information coming from the area tells us that things downright blow?

Seriously, Metanis, take Ann Coulter's cock out of your mouth and open your eyes. Things suck, and a man with shiny buttons and a cute hat telling me otherwise doesn't make it so.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » March 6, 2006, 3:26 am

Perhaps you could enlighten the board with evidence that supports Murtha?

I'll direct them to any tv news report you care to show that isn't broadcast on Foxnews. Or any newspaper report on Iraq from any newspaper outside America (or even inside). Or any first hand report by an Iraqi living there.

Or pretty much anywhere but the fucking charade of reality residing inside your head Metanis.

Fucking hick.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » March 6, 2006, 7:20 am

I'll direct them to any tv news report you care to show that isn't broadcast on Foxnews. Or any newspaper report on Iraq from any newspaper outside America (or even inside). Or any first hand report by an Iraqi living there.

Duh - that's just the liberal media bias. Everything's fucking rosy out there. Which is why all the westerners are barriacaded in a small patch of Baghdad and the Mehdi Army runs the rest of it.
Just need a Kurdish attempt at secession and we'll really be rolling.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » March 6, 2006, 11:20 am

Nick wrote:
Perhaps you could enlighten the board with evidence that supports Murtha?
I'll direct them to any tv news report you care to show that isn't broadcast on Foxnews. Or any newspaper report on Iraq from any newspaper outside America (or even inside). Or any first hand report by an Iraqi living there.

Or pretty much anywhere but the fucking charade of reality residing inside your head Metanis.

Fucking hick.

Have you actually watched Fox News? I actually turned it on over the weekend, and they were not anywhere near as bad as some of you make it sound. I found more pro-war slant on CNN during one of their stories than I did on Fox.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » March 6, 2006, 11:54 am

Boogahz, the side commentary they have during reports just uses casual wording to imply support. It's a truly subliminal process, and I have to tip my hat to them for their genius, even if I hate the idea. The fact that any administration figure only goes onto Fox News to deliver a statement or go through an interview shows the Bush team trying to harness Fox New's image of conservative broadcasting.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » March 6, 2006, 12:13 pm

Personally I will watch and listen to both. I have liberal and conservative talk radio stations saved so I can hear both sides. If anyone truly believes they get the "whole" story by listening or watching only one side, they are as gullible as the broadcasters want them to be.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » March 6, 2006, 12:31 pm

Met, come on Murtha had a much longer response then that, you play the same silly games as the media you claim to despise.

“Why would I believe him?” said Murtha, D-Pa. “This administration, including the president, has mischaracterized this war for the last two years ... So why would I believe the chairman of the Joint Chiefs when he says things are going well?”
“The only people who want us in Iraq are Iran and al-Qaida,” Murtha said on CBS’s “Face the Nation” political talk show. “And I talked to a top-level commander the other day and he said China wants us there also. Why? Because we’re depleting our resources ... our troop resources and our fiscal resources.

“The war on terrorism is worldwide. In Iraq, it’s a civil war,”

And guess what, he's fucking right, many think this is Russia in Afganistan all over again, and that war, that seemingly minor conflict was what collapsed the USSR. In a free market society I am less inclined to beleive that can happen, but there are those that think otherwise.[/google]

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » March 6, 2006, 2:25 pm

It's certainly not going well.

But it's not going as poorly as everyone wants to make it out to be, either.

There are certainly signs that not everything is going to shit militarily in Iraq. For instance:

-Troop deaths have been trending down since late last year. Wounded troop statistics have been trending downward as well.

-Iraqi military & police deaths have trended downward since their peak in the middle to late stages of last year.

-Iraqi civilian deaths escalated in mid 2005 and spiked drastically in late 2005, but have since returned to pre-escalation levels.

Some quality of life indicators are not so bleakly negative either. Unemployment is down. Private telephone and internet access is drastically better than it was pre-invasion.

In fact, the Iraqi population is far more positive than the population of VeeshanVault.

"Do you think that Iraq today is generally headed in the right direction or the wrong direction?"

Right Direction: Overall 64%, Kurds 76%, Shia 84%, Sunni 6%

(The percentage of respondents who answered 'right direction' peaked at 67% in April 2005, before falling below 50% for the second half of 2005. The fact that it's back up near it's peak is definitely a positive sign.)

"Thinking about any hardships you might have suffered since the U.S.-Britain invasion, do you personally think that ousting Saddam Hussein was worth it or not?"

Worth it: Overall 77%, Kurds 91%, Shia 98%, Sunni 13%

Support for democracy has grown. In an ABC-Time poll conducted in October-November 2005 (at the height of the violence), support for democracy has increased to 57% of Iraqis, while support for an Islamic state had fallen to 14%. 26% support a strong single leader, and most of this support comes from Sunni areas.

Now, obviously this news is not all positive- we really would prefer to not have such significant sectarian divisions. However, to some extent, these sectarian divisions are to be expected, as we did (more or less) remove the Sunnis from power and hand it over to the Shia. Plus, Saddam was busy slaughtering the Shia and the Kurds just a little more than a decade ago, so they've got some residual bitterness there. While there are certainly worries about this sectarian divisiveness, there's no evidence that it's yet escalated to completely unmanageable levels. The Gulf Cooperation Council, made up of Sunni dominated governments (Oman, United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, etc) has recently been calling for Moslem unity instead of sectarian divisiveness. The United States is vastly less effective than regional powers when it comes to dealing with tricky issues internal to Islam.

Now, this is not to say that things are going great in Iraq. There are certainly serious problems, and the administration did underestimate the severity of those problems. However, to claim that Iraq is constantly plunging into chaos, that at each moment the situation is worse than it was the moment prior, is nothing but blatant hystericism and willful ignorance.

I opposed the decision to invade Iraq, and I continue to believe that I was correct in that belief (we should have been focusing our attention on places with more potential for serious problems, such as Iran and Pakistan). However, my fervently wishing that we had never invaded Iraq will not make it so, and even if we were to just get up and pull all of our troops out, it would not undo the invasion. At this point, we have an ethical obligation to clean up our mess, and a strategic obligation to do the best job possible with the hand we've been dealt. Honestly confronting the situation in Iraq and the Middle East generally is the only way to function effectively in the future.

Edit: I should cite my sources.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/Pol ... id=1389228
http://www.brookings.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf

And yes, I know it's Brookings. It's just statistics.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » March 6, 2006, 2:39 pm

Excellent post Sueven. I wasn't aware of the opinion polls in Iraq. It's good to see that many of the Iraqi people are still positive over some issues.

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » March 6, 2006, 2:49 pm

Wow, i wasnt aware that the Pentagon had hired that former Iraq PR guy to be one of their top generals.
Hell, saying the war is going good for the americans now are around as big lies as the iraq information minister (or whatever it was his title was) tried to push on us.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » March 6, 2006, 9:06 pm

Pherr the Dorf wrote:Met, come on Murtha had a much longer response then that, you play the same silly games as the media you claim to despise.
“Why would I believe him?” said Murtha, D-Pa. “This administration, including the president, has mischaracterized this war for the last two years ... So why would I believe the chairman of the Joint Chiefs when he says things are going well?”
“The only people who want us in Iraq are Iran and al-Qaida,” Murtha said on CBS’s “Face the Nation” political talk show. “And I talked to a top-level commander the other day and he said China wants us there also. Why? Because we’re depleting our resources ... our troop resources and our fiscal resources.

“The war on terrorism is worldwide. In Iraq, it’s a civil war,”
And guess what, he's fucking right, many think this is Russia in Afganistan all over again, and that war, that seemingly minor conflict was what collapsed the USSR. In a free market society I am less inclined to beleive that can happen, but there are those that think otherwise.[/google]

I'm sorry to say but your post is an excellent example of a willful inability to see past your own bias. I can freely admit there are problems in Iraq, but the attempt to equate it to Russia's Afghan experience is a total crock of shit.

You libs need to look to alternative media because you are seriously in a state of denial due to your "coolness" or your "hatred" or something. But I'm going to tell you that there is nothing cool about Ignorance.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » March 7, 2006, 2:38 am

You miss the point, I even stated I don't beleive war would be bad for our economy, but there are many who beleive AQ views this much the same (we all know the afgan fighters are the ones, Bin Laden being the ultimate example, who did break the back of the USSR, but the Russian economy was not set up to profit off such a war, I beleive ours is. The parallels are definately there as far as the way the insurgency works, the way foreign fighters like bin laden were brought in to fight, etc etc, there is definately something to be said for them thinking that way, they won a war before with this tactic and they broke the back of their enemy without ever fighting on the enemies soil.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » March 7, 2006, 10:42 am

I guess it comes down to what you qualify as being "not as bad as people want to believe".

I'm guessing if it was your neighbourhood in your country being dicked over every fucking day your pubescent attempts to come across as fair and balanced may gain a little perspective.

Oh yeah and people want to believe Iraq is really bad! It's not like theres any evidence around that SO 'WILLFULLY IGNORANTLY' forces you to see it with your own fucking eyes.

As for the future of Iraq, do you guys actually think the US is going to allow an autonomous independant Iraq? You do know that if the Shia's rule the country they are going to link themselves with Iran? Yeah, you already know this, right?

Which begs the question, does America just plan on running Iraq now? Or what? Clearly it can't allow Iraq to have ties with such a horrible country like Iran?

It's not even so much all the brutal murder, kidnapping, imprisoning, torture and destruction of livelihoods and entire cities across the country, which if you aren't a fucking spastic should be enough cause for concern, it's the complete lack of exit strategy in place and the transparant bullshit line that is "AN INDEPENDANT IRAQ" when we all know there will be no such fucking thing.

Sounds like a superpower dying.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » March 7, 2006, 11:11 am

Pherr the Dorf wrote:
And guess what, he's fucking right, many think this is Russia in Afganistan all over again, and that war, that seemingly minor conflict was what collapsed the USSR. In a free market society I am less inclined to beleive that can happen, but there are those that think otherwise.[/google]

I am extremely dubious of the claim that Afghanistan is what collapsed the Soviet Union.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » March 7, 2006, 12:43 pm

It's not what destroyed the Soviet Empire, but it was a major piece in the puzzle that made up the collapse.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » March 7, 2006, 12:49 pm

It wasn't... but it helped bring about the end much quicker. Between that and the US's arms race, they were bankrupt in no time... but that's another thread.

I thought I would add into this what happend to me last week when I went to Chicago to have a belated Christmas party with my team. We went to a fairly nice place to eat in Downers Grove and were having a good time except some people kept continually talking about work... I warned them I would change them subject if they made me... eventually I stood up, streatched my arms and said "thank God I'm in a Blue State!" At which point most of my team, except for my boss, said "YES BUT YOU ARE IN A RED COUNTY!"

Ah the fun began! It really was fun, no feelings were hurt and some very funny things came out. Like one of the guys on my team knows that my boss goes to the bathroom about 9:30 every morning so when he comes in he prints off all this left wing propaganda and goes and puts it in the bathroom while removing the morning paper... too funny!

During our converstaion though our waiter came up and said (while I was speaking of course

) "nice to see there are some smart people here who aren't actually falling for all the crap and lies this administration is telling everyone about what's going on in Iraq" To which that half my team glared at him with the "tip O' meter" heading south fast... then one asked, "so how do you know what's doing on over there?" At which point he lifted up his pant leg and we saw that half his calf was gone, obviously taken out by a bullet. He said "I know because I just got back"

Now, as a realist I do understand that he is somewhat jaded because he got shot. But he not only informed us of what was going on over there from his view, but also what is going on financially with the thousands of wounded who are coming back and the little or no assistance they are getting once they can't fight anymore. This truly made my more right leaning teammates stand up and think for a moment... admitting that if that was the case (which it may or may not be) then something should be done to help our troops... he got a really good tip as he was a great waiter but I'm betting no one has thought of him since and how he is struggling with his wife and kids since returning...

So who knows for certian but every person, including those who got back last year, have said that things aren't good in Iraq and any negative perseptions you have... are probably correct.

Marb