So whats going to happen....

[miir]

When the Liberals win another minority?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... /National/


How many times will Stephen Harper and his band of nutjobs have to call for for a non-confidence vote.... then lose (again)... before they get the point?

[Animalor]

The Liberals will get another minority.

I have a feeling the Liberals will get slightly stronger and the PQ will get slightly more seats.

I believe that the Conservatives will lose a few seats and hopefully give Harper the boot from the party leadership in favor of someone else.

The current political leaders in Canada are all pretty uninspirining to say the least.

[miir]

The current political leaders in Canada are all pretty uninspirining to say the least.

That's about as PC (pun intended) as you could get to describe Harper.


I think the NDP has a chance to snag a number of seats from the tories and the liberals. I think they would make a much more competent opposition than the conservatives (who have been embarrasingly ineffective).

[Wulfran]

I agree that Harper is uninspiring as a leader. He reminds me of the kid in elementary school that catches you doing something wrong, rats you out to the teacher to get you in trouble and brags about after... but I fail to see how he is much if any worse than:

- a person whose stated ultimate goal in politics is to gain independence for Quebec (Duceppe)

- a person who was the Finance Minister and Deputy Prime Minister , yet who claims to have been totally in the dark while the Sponsourship scam stole millions of tax dollars and funneled some of them directly back into the Liberal Party so they could finance their party (Martin)

- a person willing to moralize about corruption, sermonize about personal accountability and then makes deals with the "corrupt" government to push his minority party's agenda on the majority of the country that wants no part of it (Layton)

In terms of displayed effectiveness, I don't think there is any doubt that Layton has been the "winner" from the last 18 months of parliamentary wrangling but I will never vote for him on a) ideology (as a country we need to get back to center more, not farther to the left) and b) displayed integrity: Layton has accomplished more of his goals than any other leader in Ottawa but he does it by being two faced and opportunistic.

Martin has portrayed himself as a bumbling idiot in regards to the sponsourship deal (which is very large to me) and ineffective/noncomittal in dealing with the US on various issues.

Harper, well, as misguided as he is, has at least been consistent in that he was like a dog after a bone with the Liberals and the Gomery Commission and demanding answers. He was great on demanding accountability but he also should have been proposing some alternate solutions to the answers the NDP was giving the government to provide some balance.

My prediction is that parliament won't change by more than 5 seats to any of the parties, which will spell the end of leadership tenures for both Martin (for not winning the majorities) and Harper (for not being able to capitalize on nation wide disenchantment with the Liberals. The NDP, if they gains ground will do it at the expense of the Liberals, not the Tories: his party will attract left leaners not right leaners, who's other option is the Liberals. My hope is that Layton will steal some Liberal support and the Tories can pick up some seats on the split, but even then it would be a minority and the Tories would have no one to partner with, like the Liberals were able to suck up to the NDP, so even less stable and likely leading to yet another election after the first budget.

[Lynks]

We might see a few Liberal seats lost in Quebec to the bloc. NDP might gain 1 more. I predict no more than 4 seats changed.

[Niffoni]

Canadians will go with the corrupt, bloodsucking pricks over the corrupt bloodsucking nutcases.

In other words, yes, it's another minority win for Paul Martin's crew of mediocrity and money laundering.

[Animalor]

Frankly at this juncture, I'm unsure of who to vote for.

I think the platforms they decide to run with will make a big difference. If Harper would temper his views on some social issues, I could be tempted to vote for him.

I don't think that the tories will ever even form a minority government with Harper at the helm.

[miir]

Canadians will go with the corrupt, bloodsucking pricks over the corrupt bloodsucking nutcases.

In other words, yes, it's another minority win for Paul Martin's crew of mediocrity and money laundering.

When it comes down to it, Martin and the Liberals have been doing a pretty decent job at actually running the country.

I don't have any confidence that Harper or Layton could do even half as good a job.

[Niffoni]

Who said I wasn't voting Liberal?

[VariaVespasa]

Well I gotta say a balanced budget is where its at for me, and that means liberal I think.

*Hugs*
Varia

[kyoukan]

canadians are suffering from scandal fatigue right now. it would take quite a jolt for something to come along that would outrage the country to the point that mulroney did. I think another election would do nothing right now but give the liberals back some more seats.

I am mostly ambivalent about the liberal party in canada. it almost disgusts me when I think about it, but I am prepared to accept a fair amount of corruption in government provided the economy keeps moving forward and the government continues to make socially liberal decisions that move society into the future. the sponsorship scandal to me is a lot less of an issue than canada being run by the fucking conservatives again. the only major thing I really disagree on with the federal liberals is the sorry state of our armed forces. I would very much prefer the 10's of billions of dollars in tax cuts being promised over the next 4 years go towards our military than back into our pockets. but please don't buy any more used crap off crazy tony's used submarine lot.

[VariaVespasa]

Oh god, dont talk about those bloody subs. Somebody was on serious drugs when they bought those. We should go drive those things up the Thames and ram the Tower of London or something in protest, its close enough to the riverbank you could probably just about manage it with a good run-up. And by way of spite we could wrap a couple of the fast-cats around the base of London Bridge too; we took some of their junk, the least they can do is take some of ours!

*Hugs*
Varia

[Aabidano]

You need more people like this guy in your govt:

UFOs, are as real as the airplanes that fly over your head.

The United States military are preparing weapons which could be used against the aliens, and they could get us into an intergalactic war without us ever having any warning. He stated, "The Bush administration has finally agreed to let the military build a forward base on the moon, which will put them in a better position to keep track of the goings and comings of the visitors from space, and to shoot at them, if they so decide.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/prweb/20051124/ ... eb314382_1

[Noysyrump]

Crazy.

why should canada spend money on military? All they need is a "national guard" army force.

A) Canada is a protectorate of the United States, and England both.

2) If we ever decide to invade Youll never match the US in military spending anyways. (And yes the only country that could or would invade canada would be the US... Unless you count some odd penguin migration as an invasion.)

[Winnow]

Wow, a thread about Canadian politics has reached 15 posts!

Canadian military specialists have always performed well in wars but there's no need for them anymore except for acting as a national guard type force to rescue small canadian fishing boats capsized by the wakes of American mega floating fish processing ships steaming back and forth along the coast. Canada is safe as long as they keep exporting oil to the U.S. along with some other natural resources.

The United States is Canada's bread and butter. As a Canadian politician, I'd focus on making a more hard core version of Las Vegas out of the Canadian border cities where Americans could go and legally smoke pot, watch a husky show (much like the donkey shows in mexico), make use of some high quality brothels and strip clubs, and generally have a good time spending lots of money inside huge, well heated casinos, disguised on the inside to look like tropical paradises. I would immediately make a city in Newfoundland the capital of Canada as they are the ones pumping out the oil and also have fun beer drinking residents there that mostly don't speak french.

That's just the tip of the iceberg of things that could secure the economic future of Canada.

[Noysyrump]

watch a husky show (much like the donkey shows in mexico),

[Wulfran]

Canadians will go with the corrupt, bloodsucking pricks over the corrupt bloodsucking nutcases.

In other words, yes, it's another minority win for Paul Martin's crew of mediocrity and money laundering.

This is what I find truly disenchanting about living in this country: people run around with blinders on and say "its not me, its you". Comments like what Niffoni says, and the un-substantiated blurbs by Miir give strong evidence of this.

I'm not going to deny or defend some of the social conservatives that have joined the Conservative Party after the merger with the Reform/Alliance/Whatever-The-Hell-You-Want-To-Call-It-Today Party. However they are not unique in that respect: The NDP is home to Svend Robinson, who made a career out of circumventing the law whenever he felt his "Cause of the Moment" warranted it (i.e. being there for Sue Rodriguez's assisted suicide among others). The Liberals gave birth to Carolyn Parrish, who may have quit the party because of her feuding with Paul Martin, but whose career was highlighted by slanderous remarks about another nation and their leader. Whats the big difference? The only real one is the Tories are centrist with a right slant and the Liberals are centrist with a left slant.

Socially, the Conservatives lost the battle on gay marriage and even if they make some noise to appease some social conservatives, it won't be back on the table. Harper has also come out and openly refuted some who claimed that the Conservatives would try and impose legal restrictions on abortion.

Fiscally, I find it entertaining that someone like Varia would hold up the Liberals as an example when while they have balanced the budget, they were the ones who created both the deficits and the massive debt this country has. The Conservatives under Joe Clark actually proposed a budget to control it in, but that was what Pierre Trudeau and Ed Broadbent used to topple Clark's minority gov't. When the Conservatives returned to power, 5 years later, Mulroney took a lesson out of ther Trudeau handbook and refused to rein in spending, which in turn was the major catalyst in the destruction of Conservative support in Western Canada (and I have no doubt among fiscal conservatives in Ontario and points east), which meant the rise of the Reform party in the next election. And lets not forget the first 2 provinces to get rid of their deficits were Saskatchewan (NDP using a combination of higher taxes and spending cuts) and Alberta (using spending cuts only). It was only after this, and hearing various groups (including IIRC the IMF) warning of the effects of our spending, that the Liberals finally climbed on board.

As far as health care, and I know there will be some ill-informed idiot piping up about " the conservatives want to kill medicare", I live in the province that spends the MOST on our system per capita in the country: Alberta. And something still doesn't work with it. Increasing spending seems to drop money into a black hole, with the Medical Ass'n and Nurse's unions saying "we need more". At this point, I do wonder if we should experiment with some hybridization, like having some services performed by private entities/clinics who bill back to the gov't and not the individual. I don't know the answer but blindly clinging to one dogma and not examining other possibilities is doing nothing to solve the problem.

Amazingly enough Winnow was at least partially correct about our military: a major aspect of its application is Search and Rescue/Coastguard type activities, however that ignores the equally important or more onerous UN Peacekeeping and treaty commitments we have under agreements such as NATO. The military is definately one area where I am not fond of the Conservatives but at the same time how can I forget it was the Liberals who dissolved our only quick-reation force, the Royal Canadian Airborne Regiment, in the "aftermath" of the Somalia inquiry, after the command of the regiment had been examined (replaced), disciplined (where needed) and was back in top shape (and not a haven for some of the elements that it had housed before the deployment to Somalia). The yes-no-yes-no by the Liberals and Conservatives both regard to our helicopters a decade ago did nothing to install confidence in either party to me, and the subs were mentioned...

National unity, that great Liberal strength has lead to a resurgence in seperatism in Quebec (as misguided as it is) thanks to the Sponsourship scam. Western alienation, while always present under the Liberals with the eastern power base, seems to be on an upswing, and seems to be something Martin has no idea on how to address (but at least he pretends to care, unlike Chretien or Trudeau).

Foreign affairs/policy, Martin has again seemed ineffective and indecisive. Trade disputes with the US have been hampered with the baggage of Cretin Legacy and have been no doubt affected by shit like his swapping stances on the US missile defence plan. Hell, the Brits call him Mr. Dithers, which while not necessarily indicating everyone views him in this light, at least some important nations do.

After all this, I still have to confess Harper doesn't make me feel confident in his ability, but I don't see the status quo as the more favorable option.

[Dregor Thule]

Zee government has fallen!

[kyoukan]

bullshit. all the other parties did is force another election that will cost us a couple billion dollars and only a tiny margin of seats might change. its all fucking worthless pig politics and a complete waste of time and money. canada has more pressing issues than a bunch of rich white politicians and their political backbiting.

[miir]

"Adscam" is a drop in the fucking bucket compared to what Harper and his loonies are costing the Canadian taxpayer for this pointless election.

[Wulfran]

"Adscam" is a drop in the fucking bucket compared to what Harper and his loonies are costing the Canadian taxpayer for this pointless election.

Are you a Liberal party strategist that you feel this is all Harper's fault? All that changed with this motion is:

a) the opposition forced the timing of this rather than let the Liberals have 4 more months of procrastination (you DO recall Martin's speech of last May about calling an election within 30 days of Gomery's report?)
b) a shitload of Liberal spending programs got moved from "promised in government" to "promised in election campaign".

The fact is all 3 opposition parties agreed on a compromise (including Mr "Sekrit Ajenda" Harper). Martin and the Liberals refused to cooperate, so the THREE opposition parties basically said "fuck you too".

Keep bleating, Sheep: that way a Grit will hear and come shear you, and assfuck you again (but don't forget that its all Harper's fault).

[Bubba Grizz]

Unless you count some odd penguin migration as an invasion.)

I hope by using "Odd" you have a way out of this. Penguins are from the other ice cap bud.

[miir]

"Adscam" is a drop in the fucking bucket compared to what Harper and his loonies are costing the Canadian taxpayer for this pointless election.

Are you a Liberal party strategist that you feel this is all Harper's fault? All that changed with this motion is:

a) the opposition forced the timing of this rather than let the Liberals have 4 more months of procrastination (you DO recall Martin's speech of last May about calling an election within 30 days of Gomery's report?)
b) a shitload of Liberal spending programs got moved from "promised in government" to "promised in election campaign".

The fact is all 3 opposition parties agreed on a compromise (including Mr "Sekrit Ajenda" Harper). Martin and the Liberals refused to cooperate, so the THREE opposition parties basically said "fuck you too".

Keep bleating, Sheep: that way a Grit will hear and come shear you, and assfuck you again (but don't forget that its all Harper's fault).

Bitter, aren't we?

[Noysyrump]

Unless you count some odd penguin migration as an invasion.)

I hope by using "Odd" you have a way out of this. Penguins are from the other ice cap bud.

wouldnt exactly be invading if they were from "The Great White North" now would they....


See This Thread for more info on the Penguin threat.

[Bubba Grizz]

Unless you count some odd penguin migration as an invasion.)

I hope by using "Odd" you have a way out of this. Penguins are from the other ice cap bud.

wouldnt exactly be invading if they were from "The Great White North" now would they....


See This Thread for more info on the Penguin threat.

I didn't know that Canada had claim to all the territory up to and including Santa's house.

[masteen]

WE NEED TO LIBERATE SANTA FROM HIS CANADIAN OPRESSORS! LETS ROLL!

[Wulfran]

"Adscam" is a drop in the fucking bucket compared to what Harper and his loonies are costing the Canadian taxpayer for this pointless election.

Are you a Liberal party strategist that you feel this is all Harper's fault? All that changed with this motion is:

a) the opposition forced the timing of this rather than let the Liberals have 4 more months of procrastination (you DO recall Martin's speech of last May about calling an election within 30 days of Gomery's report?)
b) a shitload of Liberal spending programs got moved from "promised in government" to "promised in election campaign".

The fact is all 3 opposition parties agreed on a compromise (including Mr "Sekrit Ajenda" Harper). Martin and the Liberals refused to cooperate, so the THREE opposition parties basically said "fuck you too".

Keep bleating, Sheep: that way a Grit will hear and come shear you, and assfuck you again (but don't forget that its all Harper's fault).

Bitter, aren't we?

No I am sick and bloody tired of the BS in and surrounding Canadian politics and you are perpetuating the myth here.

I don't like Harper either: as a conservative voter (but not party member) I thought in the last leadership campaign he was my last choice of the final 3 to be the leader. I don't like the approach he has taken on some issues but agree with him on others. I also believe in being fair... and how do you thrust blame on someone for forcing an election that the majority of parliament agrees with, including 2 other majors parties and most of the independents who sat in the house... especially after they offered (or in Harper's case at least agreed to go along with) a compromise proposal.

The Liberals were the ones who promised an election within 30 days of Justice Gomery's report, in May (which WAS expected in entirety in November at that point, instead of "just a preliminary report").
The Liberals refused a compromise that would have postponed the dissolution of parliament until January.

Thus if you want to blame someone, blame Mr "I didn't know, I just signed the cheques" Martin.

[*~*stragi*~*]

derail: this thread is now about canadian politics

[Atokal]

When the Liberals win another minority?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... /National/


How many times will Stephen Harper and his band of nutjobs have to call for for a non-confidence vote.... then lose (again)... before they get the point?

What is the point?!!?

That Canadians don't believe in punishing criminals when they hold a government office?

That all of the horrible decisions made by this group of assholes are to be pardoned?

Not by this Citizen, Liberals will go down in fucking flames if there is even a shred of intelligence in this country.

[miir]

What is the point?!!?

That Canadians don't believe in punishing criminals when they hold a government office?

That all of the horrible decisions made by this group of assholes are to be pardoned?

Not by this Citizen, Liberals will go down in fucking flames if there is even a shred of intelligence in this country.

I expected nothing less from you, Toker.




Would be nice to see the conservatives get edged out as the 'official' opposition. At least the NDP as some semblance of respectibility. The tories will never be taken seriously with harper at the helm.

[Atokal]

What is the point?!!?

That Canadians don't believe in punishing criminals when they hold a government office?

That all of the horrible decisions made by this group of assholes are to be pardoned?

Not by this Citizen, Liberals will go down in fucking flames if there is even a shred of intelligence in this country.

I expected nothing less from you, Toker.

Would be nice to see the conservatives get edged out as the 'official' opposition. At least the NDP as some semblance of respectibility. The tories will never be taken seriously with harper at the helm.

Yes Miir I do tend to hold governments responsible for mistakes and criminal bs. Further the provincial liberals have proven themselves to be even worse than the federal bunch. This government has done nothing but alienate the French, the Americans, and every tax payer in the country with a brain.

The cost of this election pales in comparison to the damage already done by this group.

Yeah Smilin Jack sure is a great alternative to the Conservatives.

[Wulfran]

Would be nice to see the conservatives get edged out as the 'official' opposition. At least the NDP as some semblance of respectibility. The tories will never be taken seriously with harper at the helm.

Again with the empty rhetoric but no substantiation for it. Does this mean that the perspective of Western Canada is invalid to you and not to be taken seriously, since they provide the core of Tory support?

To be honest I am worried about this election and the ramifications it holds for the future of the country. Both the Liberals and Tories (the party that was home to many of the Bloc MPs once upon a time) have been tremendously ineffective in making inroads against the seperatist support in Quebec (and lets be honest the NDP was never even in the fight). The Liberal strategy has seemed to be a quasi-appeasement which has worked barely well enough to win the 2 referendums the sovereigntists have had but has also had a side effect of increasing western alienation to the point there are serious rumblings out here... and those rumbles include the province with the country's fastest growing economy (BC) and the province that provides more per capita to confederation than any other (Alberta).

The painful truth is that we need a statesman to provide a vision and unit the country but none seem to be forthcoming. Harper is stuck to his base (unless he pisses them off with more stupidity like his promised free vote on gay marriage), just as Martin and Duceppe are... and the socialist vision of Layton doesn't fly very far outside organized labour. No one seems to be capable of finding common ground to keep a nation united.

[kyoukan]

Yes Miir I do tend to hold governments responsible for mistakes and criminal bs.

so why are you swinging around in your cage and yanking your dick about electing back in a party that was driven out by corruption and ethics violations just over a decade ago?

Not by this Citizen, Liberals will go down in fucking flames if there is even a shred of intelligence in this country.

the median intelligence level of canada fucking doubles every time you leave for a holiday.

[Animalor]

Harper's base is mostly centered around the areas where the Canadian Alliance was strong. I believe that the party's biggest problem is that they failed to overcome the mistrust, however unfounded, that eastern canadians had of the Canadian Alliance.

I've started looking into who the candidates are in my riding. There's a Liberal and a Torie around here, no NDP as of yet.

[Atokal]

Yes Miir I do tend to hold governments responsible for mistakes and criminal bs.

so why are you swinging around in your cage and yanking your dick about electing back in a party that was driven out by corruption and ethics violations just over a decade ago?

Not by this Citizen, Liberals will go down in fucking flames if there is even a shred of intelligence in this country.

the median intelligence level of canada fucking doubles every time you leave for a holiday.

Truly facinating commentary. By your way of thinking it is preferable to keep the liberals in power because the Conservatives had some issues OVER A FUCKING DECADE AGO. The principle players have long since left public service.

[miir]

Toker, you'd be pretty fucking naive if you don't expect some sort of corruption in government... especially on the federal level.

The conservatives are just as dirty as the liberals.

[Wulfran]

Toker, you'd be pretty fucking naive if you don't expect some sort of corruption in government... especially on the federal level.

Amazingly enough I agree with Miir here. I think some level of corruption in politicians is to be (sadly) expected.

The conservatives are just as dirty as the liberals.

This is where I think Miir is wrong. I believe in the old adage "power corrupts". The Mulroney tories had their scandals over a decade ago when they were in power. As Atokal mentioned, most (I believe ALL) of those MPs are now gone. Thats not to say the current slate of tories is immune to the "benefits" of being in power, just that they haven't been exposed thus you can't judge.

As for the existing Liberals, the taint of scandal is strong on them, especially the PM, as he was Finance Minister and deputy PM when all this went on. People like Jane Stewart are gone and so is Jean Chretien but other members of the Liberal caucus were in place during the scandals (HR, Shawinigate, Adscam) including Martin, McLellan, Goodale and others. And even if there was no direct evidence linking most of them to the previous scams, now there is the new "shadow" of insider trading around Finance Minister Goodale's tax announcement on Trusts. It just doesn't go away...

[Chmee]

As someone said in the comments over at Reason's Hit and Run blog recently.

"Which party is more corrupt?"
"Whichever one is currently in power."

[Niffoni]

As someone said in the comments over at Reason's Hit and Run blog recently.

"Which party is more corrupt?"
"Whichever one is currently in power."

Sadly, I've reached that point of cynicism. If I end up voting Conservative, it'll be because I want a new dick in my ass, not because i think the fucking will stop.

Disclaimer: Please do not read the above post as it may make you picture Harper's penis.

[Animalor]

Sadly, I've reached that point of cynicism. If I end up voting Conservative, it'll be because I want a new dick in my ass, not because i think the fucking will stop.

ROFL. That quote is just fucking classic. If you don't mind, I'll pass it along to some of my co-workers.

[Noysyrump]

If it were not for Political corruption, No one would get into politics.


Talent goes where the money is. If Politicians dont get payed ya get crappy know-nothing buerocrats, that get nothing done.

[Atokal]

Toker, you'd be pretty fucking naive if you don't expect some sort of corruption in government... especially on the federal level.

Amazingly enough I agree with Miir here. I think some level of corruption in politicians is to be (sadly) expected.

The conservatives are just as dirty as the liberals.

This is where I think Miir is wrong. I believe in the old adage "power corrupts". The Mulroney tories had their scandals over a decade ago when they were in power. As Atokal mentioned, most (I believe ALL) of those MPs are now gone. Thats not to say the current slate of tories is immune to the "benefits" of being in power, just that they haven't been exposed thus you can't judge.

As for the existing Liberals, the taint of scandal is strong on them, especially the PM, as he was Finance Minister and deputy PM when all this went on. People like Jane Stewart are gone and so is Jean Chretien but other members of the Liberal caucus were in place during the scandals (HR, Shawinigate, Adscam) including Martin, McLellan, Goodale and others. And even if there was no direct evidence linking most of them to the previous scams, now there is the new "shadow" of insider trading around Finance Minister Goodale's tax announcement on Trusts. It just doesn't go away...

Good Post Wulf.

What it boils down to for me is accountability. This Liberal government has to be held accountable as were the Tories. If we have an apathetic approach to politics we deserve what we get. If the Tories win this election and have issues with ethics I will be the first to vote them out.