UK policy invited attacks

[Nick]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 665133.stm

Iran has condemned the bomb attacks in London as inhumane, and offered its condolences to the victims.
But one of the country's top clerics, Ayatollah Mohammed Emami-Kashani, said they were the direct result of the UK's support for US and Israeli policies.

The ayatollah called al-Qaeda an "illegitimate child" of the West.

The Friday prayer leader said it was divine justice that a group which had nothing to do with Islam had now conspired against its backers.

The BBC's Frances Harrison in Tehran says Iran's view is that US funding for extremist Sunni Muslim groups opposing the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s set the stage for the emergence of the Taleban and al-Qaeda.

Stinging attack

This savagery is not Islam - it is coming from inside of you and it is now punching you

Ayatollah Kashani condemned the blasts, but also launched a stinging attack on Western foreign policy, punctuated with cries of "death to America, Britain and Israel".

"You talk about al-Qaeda. Have you forgotten who has bred al-Qaeda?" he asked, in remarks addressed to UK Prime Minister Tony Blair.

"It's the illegitimate child of America and Israel, but you name it Islam. This savagery is not Islam. It is coming from inside of you and it is now punching you."

'Change your ways'

He said the West had also nurtured former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein by supplying him with weapons during the Iran-Iraq war.

"You armed Saddam with every weapon against us," he said. "But your feet are still bogged down in the Iraqi quagmires and you cannot get out."

He also attacked US George W Bush's war on terror and Middle East policies.

"Where have you reached by cracking down on terrorism? It has happened again because you do not want to use your head."

"You train terrorists and state terrorism. If you want to succeed you have to leave Palestine alone," he added.

"Acting against terrorism must be honest ... and you will not succeed unless you wise up and change your ways."

Ummm..bar the "death to America, Britain and Israel", can any single person here actually deny what this man is saying as truth?

Edit: Btw, death to America etc is no different from some people here saying fuck muslims or indeed "I wish we could just kill em all", so spare your pious indignation.

If you can even begin to doublethink into a position where you think he isn't right, please do, it could be good for a laugh.

Edit: I don't like terrorists at all, so can we stick to the issue here being discussed? Thanks!

Also, even after the barbaric attacks in London that are not justified in modern society by anyone, this is also pretty much the accepted viewpoint of the average Brit.
This is more to see if some of the sheep on this board have the balls to admit certain home truths after yet another violent attack.

[Boogahz]

I wonder if this will be enough for the people that constantly say other Muslims should come out and condemn the various actions of terrorist groups.

[Nick]

It would be hilarious if all the fundies hid and pretended this thread didn't exist.

[Trias]

i don't think everything he has to say is truth...

this part especially

"If you want to succeed you have to leave Palestine alone"

just because some asshat cleric states some cause and effect statements and some random irish guy agrees with him doesn't make said statements the "truth"

vague examples "these oranges didn't ripen because of your fucking western pigdog policies"

"you are stupid, you have to leave palestine alone to end terrorism"

[Nick]

Umm. how exactly can you justify supporting the oppression of hundreds of thousands of innocent people though?

Care to elaborate on what else you disagree with?

[Trias]

edited my post to make it clearer...and your initial question was just if we agreed or disagreed with what you said; it had nothing to do with me justifying my perspective on any kind of support for opression of any kind.

[Trias]

Bin Laden formed Al Qaeda in 1989 and after Saddam invaded Kuwait, Bin Laden was planning to send Al Qaeda members to Kuwait to fight Saddam’s army and liberate Kuwait...you can find this info on many news sites; i grabbed it off of Aljazeera

basically many reports say that nearing the end of the gulf(US started) war, bin laden averted his eyes onto the evil west which brought foreign militaries onto "sacred territories" and events snowballed from there

al qaeda was not formed because of the the US; but some policy didn't help it to go away i will agree; and i also believe that if Al Qaeda didn't have "the evil west" as it's target, it would just be another target closer to home...it is a terrorist group afterall ^^

[Nick]

Well, for shits and giggles, maybe you could elaborate (think of it as a game!) so people don't come to the conclusion that you in fact must be a supporter of terror (of a different kind) yourself.

What does truth equate to then Trias? If not an obvious perceptive conclusion (shared by many and based on cold hard fact) to what is correct opposed to what is blatantly incorrect (based on ignorance or apathy)?

I haven't insulted you once, the word ignorance means a lack of insight, it may or may not apply to you.

It would be a bit dull to get into the usual shitslinging, I wonder how many of us can actually bring this duscussion to any depth other than the usual mindless kindergarten nonsense.

Care to join in?


Edit: Au contraire, it is in fact common knowledge at this point that Bin Laden and other known Al Quaida members were trained by the CIA to act as mercenaries in the Russian Afghan war in the 1980's, and then promptly left to die/find their way home without money/public recognition etc when the war was over.

If you care to check, this is easy to confirm, and indeed where the birth of Al Quaida began.

I have no idea where your story about the whole Kuwait thing comes from, where did you get it from?

In conclusion, it was indeed the US's desertion of these men that formed the basis for the beginning of Al Quaida as we know it, which is, as is not often publicised, a very small terrorist group, numbers wise, and more an extremely focused, highly trained (thanks CIA) militant group.

Also, if you believe some policies of the US didn't "help them go away", which ones specifically are you referring to?

[Trias]

really don't feel like taking it past here as i am yet to see any forum discussion with you involved that has ended with anything but name calling ...if you wanted an actual intellectual conversation in the first place i don't think you would have set some bait like this

"It would be hilarious if all the fundies hid and pretended this thread didn't exist."

didn't bait me, as that statement doesn't target me or what i am; i just felt inclined to answer your initial question, of if we found that cleric guy's statements to be truth

i simply see him as fanatical in his words and pretty ignorant to be speaking out in the manner that he did, especially as someone in a position that can really influence a large number of people to his same aggressive stance, which could lead to possibly more people becomming hurt/dead

peace in the mideast! i'm going to bed; mucho bbqing and beer drinking tomorrow!

[Nick]

Is that another way of avoiding the questions then?

What you seem to find fanatical or dangerous, can quite easily be percieved as less fanatical and dangerous than actively supporting the oppression (for example) of hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians for seemingly no reason at all.

No?

Edit: Oh, btw, threads evolve into discussion, not just simple questions followed by yesses or noes! (P.s enjoy your BBQ)

Edit2: Lol, take the comment about fundies as bait if you wish, that's called paranoia I think, it actually would be hilarious if they ignored it, for the obvious reasons that it pretty much contradicts their whole morbid opinion on world affairs and their place in it, in a fairly emphatic way, whilst remaining factually accurate.

[Winnow]

That's interesting info on Al Qaeda Trias.

[Trias]

well i didn't fall asleep yet hah...here is some other stuff from the bbc too...which seems to be some different info

"Al-Qaeda, means 'the base'. The organisation was set up in 1989 when the Russian Army left Afghanistan.
Many volunteers from Arab countries had gone to Afghanistan during the 1980s. They wanted to help the Afghans fight the invading Russian army.

They supported the Afghans as they were also followers of Islam. For the Arab volunteers the battle was a Jihad or holy war

When the Russian army was defeated al-Qaeda was set up to continue the Jihad against people the volunteers thought were enemies of Islam.
"

[Trias]

also check this info from Wikipedia; this is the best compilation of data on this subject i've seen yet...teeny you may interested in this info *shrug*...within, there is even more documentaion about the origins and some clear statements that show that Al Qaeda wasn't born from the evils of the US and that it had pre-existing agendas before the gulf war changed initiatives for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda

maybe this makes it clearer why i disagree with more than just the "death to americans, britains, israel blah blah blah" crap this cleric had to say

also read the neutrality dispute on that article; some interesting stuff is said in there as well...and goddamn there are a ton of links off of that site which i won't begin to complete reading till i'm back from vacation.

[Kelshara]

i don't think everything he has to say is truth...

this part especially

"If you want to succeed you have to leave Palestine alone"

just because some asshat cleric states some cause and effect statements and some random irish guy agrees with him doesn't make said statements the "truth"

Even though him saying it and some Irish agreeing does not make it true, I don't see how anyone can deny the fact that blindly supporting Israel against Palestine is at the heart of everything.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Trias....stop confusing them with facts. Let them make up their own facts to make them feel better.

I have said it about a billion times, but if we leave Israel to their own defenses entirely, there will be a war so bloody that it will make what is going on over there right now look like a slap fight. Until Palestine has a free country and Israel is not being attacked and not attacking, we have to be over there. What the dumbass Arabs do not understand is that we are protecting them in a far far greater capacity than we are protecting Israel. If we leave, Israel will start wiping people out if someone throw a rock at a citizen from across the border.

[Kelshara]

heh keep telling yourself that. You are not protecting them, you are working for your own advantage. What you need to do is stop supporting Israel blindly, work towards a sollution both sides can agree on, and ignore the attacks from the minority who do not want this. Every time Israel strikes back they play into the hands of this minority. Pretty stupid if you ask me.

[Xyun]

Does it really matter exactly why Al Queda was created in the 19fucking80s? The fact is they are an organization that is our declared enemy and this is for a reason. Here, I'll change the wording in the analogy slightly to make it more accurate: "adopted child". It's a fucking analogy, the point of debate should be why they are our enemy, not why they were created.

I have said it about a billion times, but if we leave Israel to their own defenses entirely, there will be a war so bloody that it will make what is going on over there right now look like a slap fight. Until Palestine has a free country and Israel is not being attacked and not attacking, we have to be over there. What the dumbass Arabs do not understand is that we are protecting them in a far far greater capacity than we are protecting Israel. If we leave, Israel will start wiping people out if someone throw a rock at a citizen from across the border.

circular logic ftw! you are so fucking ignorant on the subject that I won't even bother wasting my time with this. good day.

[nobody]

hey teeny!

i have to say if we weren't involved with isreal i think AQ would still exist and be trying to kill people. at the same time the west is still responsible for creating their own problems. everyone sucks.

[Fash]

*a foot tapping*.... How long before the pre-emptive strike doctrine takes effect?

[kyoukan]

*a foot tapping*.... How long before the pre-emptive strike doctrine takes effect?

Why wait, tough guy? Why don't you go attack them now?

[masteen]

Does it really matter exactly why Al Queda was created in the 19fucking80s? The fact is they are an organization that is our declared enemy and this is for a reason. Here, I'll change the wording in the analogy slightly to make it more accurate: "adopted child". It's a fucking analogy, the point of debate should be why they are our enemy, not why they were created.

I have said it about a billion times, but if we leave Israel to their own defenses entirely, there will be a war so bloody that it will make what is going on over there right now look like a slap fight. Until Palestine has a free country and Israel is not being attacked and not attacking, we have to be over there. What the dumbass Arabs do not understand is that we are protecting them in a far far greater capacity than we are protecting Israel. If we leave, Israel will start wiping people out if someone throw a rock at a citizen from across the border.

circular logic ftw! you are so fucking ignorant on the subject that I won't even bother wasting my time with this. good day.

So you really think that if we pulled our governmental backing from Israel, that everything over there would all the sudden be all flowers and happiness? Pulling support != sanctions, so they would still be free to buy all the arms and munitions they can afford, and Israel is RICH.

[miir]

So you really think that if we pulled our governmental backing from Israel, that everything over there would all the sudden be all flowers and happiness? Pulling support != sanctions, so they would still be free to buy all the arms and munitions they can afford, and Israel is RICH.

Don't take the meaning of 'support' so literally.

[masteen]

We'd have to blockade Israel to keep them from being able to maintain their military, and that's not even accounting for their existing heavy and tech manufacturing base that could pretty easily be converted into a war machine. Pulling support from Israel, however you define the word, would simply relieve us of any and all leverage we have to get them to talk peace.

[Forthe]

We'd have to blockade Israel to keep them from being able to maintain their military, and that's not even accounting for their existing heavy and tech manufacturing base that could pretty easily be converted into a war machine. Pulling support from Israel, however you define the word, would simply relieve us of any and all leverage we have to get them to talk peace.

Israel's military budget is ~9 billion, which is roughly 10% of GDP. The US provides most of that 9 billion. Israel is a very small country and not especially rich in terms of either total GDP or GDP per capita.

You wouldn't have to blockade Israel, you could stop paying for their military.

[Boogahz]

And now they want 2.2 billion to move their people and troops out of the occupied areas in the Gaza Strip.......damned if we pay, damned if we don't.

[Forthe]

And now they want 2.2 billion to move their people and troops out of the occupied areas in the Gaza Strip.......damned if we pay, damned if we don't.

You paid for them pulling out of Lenanon also. It really is a fucked up relationship, do a search on Israeli-Us debt and aid. I'm not sure if they've paid it off yet (or more likely debt was converted to grants) but at one point (before aid was changed to 100% grants) Israel's annual US debt payments were higher than Israel's anual GDP, so the US paid Israel to payback US.

[Thess]

Where is Lenanon? Just curious!

[Forthe]

Where is Lenanon? Just curious!

There is a reason I have that disclaimer in my sig!

[Chmee]

We'd have to blockade Israel to keep them from being able to maintain their military, and that's not even accounting for their existing heavy and tech manufacturing base that could pretty easily be converted into a war machine. Pulling support from Israel, however you define the word, would simply relieve us of any and all leverage we have to get them to talk peace.

Israel's military budget is ~9 billion, which is roughly 10% of GDP. The US provides most of that 9 billion. Israel is a very small country and not especially rich in terms of either total GDP or GDP per capita.

You wouldn't have to blockade Israel, you could stop paying for their military.

Numbers I have seen typically put U.S. aid to Israel at about $3 billion a year, with around 2 billion or so being military aid. So a pretty sizable chunk but not most.

[Forthe]

We'd have to blockade Israel to keep them from being able to maintain their military, and that's not even accounting for their existing heavy and tech manufacturing base that could pretty easily be converted into a war machine. Pulling support from Israel, however you define the word, would simply relieve us of any and all leverage we have to get them to talk peace.

Israel's military budget is ~9 billion, which is roughly 10% of GDP. The US provides most of that 9 billion. Israel is a very small country and not especially rich in terms of either total GDP or GDP per capita.

You wouldn't have to blockade Israel, you could stop paying for their military.

Numbers I have seen typically put U.S. aid to Israel at about $3 billion a year, with around 2 billion or so being military aid. So a pretty sizable chunk but not most.

Yeah the 3 billion is a lump sum payment Israel gets every year, 100% grant. They also get 3 billion a year in loans which have a history of being forgiven\converted to grants later on. Add on misc funding requests from Israel each year and most of the 9 billion is being covered by US tax dollars.

[Nick]

No, the US could enforce a lot more upon the Israeli's if they felt like it. The truth is, they don't particularly give a shit about the people being oppressed.

I know that's not an opinion that is terribly pro American, but frankly if you bother to look at the situation to almost any degree you will realise it to be scarily accurate.

[Aruman]

Excessive foriegn aid is one of the things we need to stop.

While maintaining national interests is beneficial, so much more could be done with that kind of money here in the US.

That much money going to one place every year is just disgusting.

[Zaelath]

Apparently you don't know the difference between foreign aid and a bribe to stop the Israelis using nukes.