Pay per mile

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Tyek
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Pay per mile

Post by Tyek »

This story scares me. In California I have to live 60+ miles from LA to afford a house. Even where I live a 1700 sq foot house costs 400,000 dollars. Now We are going to penalize people even more for moving to a more affordable area. It already takes 2 hours just to get to work and 2 hours to get back home...wait better yet charge us for the amount of time spent in the car. That would generate billions more. Instead of collecting for 30 miles, you could collect for the 75 minutes it takes drive the 30 miles.

Also glossed over is the fact that they will install a GPS black box that will monitor your driving habits, speeds, and other wonderful info. California is trying very hard to institute this policy.

Finally where is the incentive to create or support gas efficient vehicles, under this law it would not matter if you drove a Prius or a Hummer you will pay the same tax.
Oct. 4--PHILADELPHIA -- Paying your road taxes in the future might depend more on how much you drive than how much gasoline you pump.
Texas is among a group of states researching how to replace the fuel tax with a fee based on the number of miles traveled -- making every road a virtual tollway. Transportation officials from across the world discussed the concept here at last month's annual meetings of the trade groups representing the highway and tollway industries.

Fees for miles traveled would be measured by Global Positioning System receivers embedded in vehicles. The system would track which roads a motorist uses so the virtual tolls could be distributed to the appropriate agency.


Each jurisdiction could set its own per-mile fee. Data would be downloaded from vehicles monthly for billing, or could be transmitted at service stations in lieu of the gas tax.

Jack Lettiere, New Jersey transportation commissioner, said most states are falling short of collecting enough gas-tax revenue to meet mobility needs and they desire a new funding mechanism.

"We're hoping this is a theory that can go into practice," Lettiere said at the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials meeting. "It has a lot of useful benefits."

Researchers love the idea that driving taxes could be adjusted to promote or discourage certain actions. The system could charge more per mile during peak hours, for instance, or add a surcharge for heavy trucks and sport utility vehicles.

Those promoting a mileage-based approach to highway taxes contend driving should be metered and billed according to use.

"Why shouldn't transportation be seen as a utility like electricity, water, etc.?" Hal Worrall, a consultant for Transportation Innovations Inc., asked during a panel at the International Bridge, Tunnel and Toll Road Association conference. "It's perceived as free in America and thus produces a large demand."

David Forkenbrock, director of the University of Iowa Public Policy Center, has been working on a model for four years. His research is funded by 15 states, including Texas, and the Federal Highway Administration.

As more hybrid and alternative-power vehicles are built, Forkenbrock said, gas-tax collections will suffer.

"A tax at the point of purchase is inferior to user charges at the exact point of travel," he said, explaining the growth of toll roads in recent years.

Oregon has already tested a mileage-based charge. It starts a pilot project next year with 280 volunteer drivers in Eugene, who will be exempt from fuel taxes in exchange for paying their per-mile assessment.
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Post by Skogen »

oh fuck this! I live in SoCal too...and something like this would pwn me.
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Post by Avryce »

Based off the fact that I don't want a government controlled GPS device in my car fuck this.

Other than that it could be a good idea but I better not ever encounter a pothole and you know that won't be the case.
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Post by Chidoro »

That's pretty freakin stupid, especially from a personal rights standpoint. Why exactly do they need to monitor your drving distance if you are already paying to drive at the pump? If it's not enough revenue, you could always just raise the gas tax. Are some politicians just afraid what people may think if they see 10% higher gas prices. Better yet, who the hell is going to make out like a bandit making the damn gps systems, surely no politician is associated :roll: .

Penalizing people and taking away personal freedoms because the populace is trending towards natural resource responsibility?
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Post by Tenuvil »

Ride a bike to work :)
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Post by masteen »

It'll be a cold day in Hell before anyone straps a government-issue tracking device to my car.
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Post by Seebs »

This explains the antenna on my cock ring. Bastards.
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Post by Lohrno »

Seebs wrote:This explains the antenna on my cock ring. Bastards.
But what it doesn't is why you haven't been billed. =D

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Post by Rivera Bladestrike »

Sounds like there'd be a lot of tampering on these GPS units... Think about crime -- Your get away car would have a tough time!

Could they monitor speed and print you out a speeding ticket right in your car?

In order for something to be a crime, an act must be observed and recorded, seems like this could easily be used to stop me from weaving in and out of mid day traffic at 95 miles per hour. I don't like this!
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Post by Lohrno »

Yeah like has been said. I will physically remove anything like this that gets it's way into my car. If I get fined for it I will likely take it to the supreme court.

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Post by Akaran_D »

They are welcome to put it on mine.
I mean, seriously. If it helps cut down on the number of people that are violating the speed limit and maybe even - gosh! - take some hazardous drivers off of the roads, then it's a damn good thing.

We have the freedom to do anything we want - unless it breaks the law.
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Re: Pay per mile

Post by Xouqoa »

"Why shouldn't transportation be seen as a utility like electricity, water, etc.?" Hal Worrall, a consultant for Transportation Innovations Inc., asked during a panel at the International Bridge, Tunnel and Toll Road Association conference. "It's perceived as free in America and thus produces a large demand."
What a stupid comparison. I don't pay for the sewer lines, water lines and electric poles that run the electricity/water/sewage to and from my house. I did, however, pay for my car.

Maybe if they make cars free, this would be a more appealing idea. Otherwise, no fucking way. (And I don't even drive that much.)
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Post by Lohrno »

Akaran_D wrote:They are welcome to put it on mine.
I mean, seriously. If it helps cut down on the number of people that are violating the speed limit and maybe even - gosh! - take some hazardous drivers off of the roads, then it's a damn good thing.
Speed limit laws are way too strict.

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Post by Tyek »

Could they monitor speed and print you out a speeding ticket right in your car?
Apparently not right in your car, but you could potentially get a speeding ticket in the mail if you violated it. At least according to some of the articles I read about it.

I found this old article though that I thought was interesting, sounds like they already ARE installing them in some vehicles.


A little-publicized privacy bill signed into law Monday aims to protect California motorists from a little-known device dubbed the "black box" that records data on how a vehicle was being driven just before an accident.

The legislation, the first of its kind in the nation, prevents the recorded data from being obtained by police or others without the vehicle owner's consent or a court order -- except in cases of safety research in which the owner's identity is protected.

The law, which takes effect July 1, 2004, also requires automakers to disclose the presence of the devices in the owner's manual.

"Most people don't even know these devices exist," said Kevin O'Neill, legislative director for Assemblyman Tim Leslie, R-Tahoe City, author of the bill. "That was why we did this bill."

Known as event data recorders or sensing and diagnostic modules in the auto industry, the devices record information about how a vehicle was being driven just before a crash. Among the information recorded are speed, whether -- and how hard -- the brakes are applied, the angle of the steering wheel, the position of the accelerator, direction of travel and whether or not seat belts were being used.

The devices, which record information on a continuous loop that rewrites itself every few seconds, lock the information in place only after an accident that deploys an air-bag. Data from the recorders can be downloaded only after a crash.

Automakers started using the devices as a way to collect accident information for safety purposes such as preventing the unnecessary deployment of air-bags.

General Motors -- the main user of the devices -- began installing the boxes in some cars as early as the 1970s, said O'Neill, and now installs them in every new car. Ford also installs recorders in some of its vehicles, he said, but most other automakers don't yet use them.

In recent years, O'Neill said, data from the the devices has found its way into court -- primarily to defend automakers in cases where consumers claimed a vehicle malfunctioned. In at least one case, the recorded data was used as evidence in a vehicle accident.

Recently, South Dakota police tried to get data to show whether Rep. Bill Janklow had run a stop sign before he struck and killed a motorcyclist.

"With the ability of law enforcement to get this information, and other people to get this information, we thought consumers needed protection about how (these devices) could be used," O'Neill said.

Leslie said in a written statement that the legislation was necessary because the recorders were installed in vehicles without the owners' consent. He likened use of the devices to wiretaps, and said that, to protect motorists against illegal search and seizure, a court order should be required to download data from the devices.

The law, he said in a letter urging Gov. Gray Davis to sign the bill, "will give consumers the knowledge they currently lack concerning the presence of 'black boxes' as well as empower them as to how and when the information can be retrieved and used."
and this one
Black boxes are installed in millions of cars across North America – most cars that have air bags – but most drivers don't even know they're there.

And there are no rules governing how information taken from black boxes can be used in Canada.
and finally
Most Ford and General Motors vehicles and two new Chrysler models are equipped with black boxes, which can give details about the way you drive.



BLACK BOX INFO
Find out if your automobile has a black box at http://www.airbagcrash.com. (Note: Scroll to bottom of page to find your auto model after you click on link.)


Opponents don't like it, arguing it's akin to Big Brother spying on drivers. Still others think it's an invaluable tool in accident reconstructions.

Mohammad Bazzi and his cousin were racing down Interstate 75 when Bazzi's vehicle rear-ended a semi-truck killing a passenger in his car.

Accident investigators were able to better pinpoint the speed by using a little-known data storage unit on the vehicle called a CDR or Crash Data Recorder.

It's part of an automobile's air-bag system and documents the speed, braking, acceleration and other data five seconds before the accident. It showed the pair of cars were going 95 miles per hour and led to a conviction of a death caused by a drunken driver.

Prosecutors are finding the black box a valuable tool.

"All of this information aids us not only in whether to charge someone and with what crime, but it's an invaluable piece of scientific evidence that juries love to hear before they convict somebody," said Dave Gorcyca, Oakland County prosecutor.

But the technology is raising concerns about civil liberties.

"We're concerned about the fact consumers don't know the black box is there. California passed a disclosure law saying the black box has been installed," said Wendy Wagenheim of the American Civil Liberties Union.

Local 4 showed drivers where the black boxes were in their cars. Some had a negative reaction.

"That's the same as me putting a camera in your house. It's an invasion of privacy," said Anthony Tillman.

Others saw the black boxes as positive.

"I think it's a good thing. It's the truth," said Neil Carpenter.

Ford and General Motors now disclose the presence of the black box in the owner's manual, but does anyone read it?

Federal safety officials want to make Big Brother bigger by increasing the amount of data recorded.

Sometimes the Big Brother black box can be a driver's best friend. In 2002, a woman crossed a center line on Drake Road in West Bloomfield. She was facing two years in prison for negligent homicide until prosecutors downloaded her car's black box.

They found she was travelling below the posted speed and that there was no evidence of increased speed. The conclusion? She hit a patch of ice. Charges were reduced.

"I believe it saved her from being convicted of very serious charges," said defense attorney Harold Fried.

Many people ask about disconnecting the black box. General Motors said that would be a bad idea, because it could degrade the air bag's performance.

Government safety officials want black boxes in all vehicles by 2008 with the ability to record 42 different functions
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Post by Rekaar. »

masteen wrote:It'll be a cold day in Hell before anyone straps a government-issue tracking device to my car.
I don't think this has a chance for this reason alone.
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Post by Aaeamdar »

Nice to see that the Pro-Bush, Pro-Patriot Act people here are getting up in arms now that it might be their rights the government is encroching. You all should reconsider. Probably they will give a large tax refund to those they can now track driving to church.
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Post by Rekaar. »

You're such a bigot. I'm sad for you :(
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Post by Rivera Bladestrike »

Well, Aaeamdar does have a point there. You let government have the ability to break down your door and take away your hard drive without a warrant and investigate your files, but you get all crazy about them knowing how fast you drive.
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Post by Sirensa »

It's not gonna happen.

1) You'd have to vote it in - yeah right

2) Every car on the road would have to be retro-fitted - yeah right

3) Would be discrepencies for inter-state drivers - I'd live in WA, and buy gas and drive in Oregon if WA charged tax at the pump and OR charged it on how many miles driven.

4) It would discourage people from buying fuel economy cars if it was irrelevant in their gas tax levels. Currently, people with economic cars use less gas; therefore, pay less tax.

Don't be an alarmist. It's an obviously stupid plan they are considering.
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Post by XunilTlatoani »

masteen wrote:It'll be a cold day in Hell before anyone straps a government-issue tracking device to my car.
Heh, don't plan on moving to Illinois. I want to say that we've had the I-Pass here (http://www.getipass.com) for over 10 years, but there has been a recent push in the past year to get more people signed up. Now the governor has been pushing a controversial plan to double the toll for people that pay cash at the toll booths instead of using the I-Pass lanes. I have an I-Pass, and personally I love it. I use the tollways infrequently, but when I do it is so much nicer not having to stop to pay. The governor is also emphatic that it is not used for issuing speeding tickets.

I think the GPS solution is downright way too complicated to work in real life, but the transponder model that Illinois uses could probably work for a pay-per-mile taxing scheme. I don't think it is out of the realm of possiblity that the state starts putting receivers on every street light (hell, there's already a camera on every light to "catch people who run red lights"). In return for paying a per-mile tax, you will not have to pay the tax at the pump (which of course would be twice what you pay per mile).

Basically, Illinois' plan is to put a pricetag on privacy. I too think it is too early for something like this to be put into place, but I definitely can see tax changes down the road (no pun intended) if the tax revenue for road improvements goes down dramatically.
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