The Brilliance of the Republicans (long)

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » August 28, 2004, 1:51 pm

So we sit here, ingesting information from multiple sources, trying to wade through the "he said/he said" to find out what happened in Vietnam with Kerry. Hats off to the elephants for really shifting the focus.

Remember,
Kerry = served in Vietnam as an officer

Bush = National Guard (along with Coast Guard, a draft-dodge)
Wolfy = took deferments
Cheny = took deferments
Rumsfeld = took deferments
Powell = distinguished miliary career (and curiously, the most dove-like high-profile member of the current admin)

It was the Republicans who suggested that Kerry isn't qualified to be El Chief.

So for the past few weeks, Bush declines to condemn the attack ads. McCain, a few weeks after these ads circulate, suggests that they should stop (if you think that this is McCain showing integrity instead of maneuvering, wake up). Bush never denies Kerry's contribution to his country, but instead slowly comes to say that this kind of campaigning by 527 groups is really the problem. He remains above it all.

Now, a short time before the rules that govern 527s which will prevent them from airing ads 60 days before an election (not 100% sure on this number, but it's around there), Bush makes the bold claim that he'll seek legal action to prevent these types of attacks. Nice. Too bad the damage has already been done, and the Democrats are wasting resources playing counter-point. It's similar to a Jury trial in which an attorney says something objectionable and it's stricken from the record, but the Jury has already heard it (do this often enough and a Judge will throw your ass in the slam for contempt, but that doesn't apply here).

Why attack 527s? When it comes to fund-raising, it should be no surprise that Republicans generally own the Democrats. 527s were a type of group that was created via a loophole in the McCain-Feingold campaign Finance Reform bill, one which the Dems have taken full advantage of and actually left the Republicans in the dust in terms of revenue raised.

To recap,
Kerry serves, Bush and Co. dodge, instead we focus on:
Whether Kerry's medals were valid

Dems waste time/$ fighting attack ads
Bush appears "above it all", saying very little
Bush cites 527s as the problem and instigates lawsuit (and hey if he wins, Dems lose a major $ source)

Bush wins by TKO.

If more ads appear before the deadline saying that Kerry was a "commie sympathizer" and that the condition of PoWs somehow declined after his testimony in the 70s, there will be no time for the Dems to construct a responsorial ad before the gag rules go into effect. Curious though, everything I've read about PoW treatmant in Vietnam suggests that the key moment in history that marked a change in prisoner conditions and treatment was shortly after Ho Chi Minh's death, at which time, PoW treatmant improved.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » August 28, 2004, 2:07 pm

John Kerry is a killer!!!

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » August 28, 2004, 3:38 pm

To explain Kerry and Powell, generally speaking it's the war vets that do their best to prevent war having seen the horrors first hand. It's usually the draft dodgers that are gung ho for war. Let them go through hell for 9-12 months at a time seeing their best friends die and they will tone the crap down too. It's harder to comit to war when you know first hand the hell that you are about to put your people through. No amount of briefings or pictures can compare to living through it yourself once or twice. Matter of fact, put Bush in Iraq in boots and give him a rifle, let him carry out his own mission for 1 month on the front lines. That would take care of that itchy trigger finger he has real quick.

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » August 28, 2004, 3:57 pm

Never mind the fact the bush allowed and signed in all the loopholes for 527s

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 28, 2004, 4:22 pm

You overblow the importance of this issue. Clinton and Bush were elected and their service in Vietnam wasn't a major factor.

All the old hippies probably love Bush for his Vietnam dodging skills and others also realize that time served in Vietnam doesn't have anything to do with who will be the better presdent. If Kerry had his change of heart a year before he served, he would have been dodging as well. As it was, he found the fastest ticket out of there and bashed our servicemen afterwards so I really don't see it helping him.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 28, 2004, 4:39 pm

Toshira wrote: Bush wins by TKO.

Your analysis was pretty good.

It bears repeating loudly and often that Kerry chose the battlefield on which this has played out.

He should have made sure the vets he was smearing weren't going to retaliate.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » August 28, 2004, 4:43 pm

Winnow wrote:You overblow the importance of this issue.

Winnow, I know that you'd say anything pretty much to just get a reaction from people, and probably have as firm convictions on political issues as Claude Raines in Casablanca, but I'm speaking about how the Republicans have beautifully shifted the focus and ended up looking good. It's really not a campaign "issue". It's an observation on political manuvering.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 28, 2004, 5:03 pm

Toshira wrote:
Winnow wrote:You overblow the importance of this issue.
Winnow, I know that you'd say anything pretty much to just get a reaction from people, and probably have as firm convictions on political issues as Claude Raines in Casablanca, but I'm speaking about how the Republicans have beautifully shifted the focus and ended up looking good. It's really not a campaign "issue". It's an observation on political manuvering.

I agree with you 100%. If you search through the 100's of messages on this topic you'll see I've already mentioned multiple times that this is a huge waste of time and a great diversionary tactic by the republicans.

On top of that, the actual issue itself (not all the hoopla debating how it actually happened) ultimately doesn't matter or has very little significance in terms of the election.

VV is a microcosm of what's going on with the election. Look at all the threads debating this subject while the important issues go untouched.

Silvarel Mistmoon · Post by **Silvarel Mistmoon** » August 28, 2004, 6:07 pm

Kerry should have never or should I say the Dems should have never brought up WHAT happened in country and left it at Kerry served his country during this that and the other thing.
There are people that can't stand him that were there. They are the ones you see speaking out.
There are a lot of vets that do not speak about what happens or very little of what happened while serving in that war. Those that I have met actually get pissed when they hear or see other vets "bragging" or "whinning" about their time spent there.

Mak · Post by **Mak** » August 28, 2004, 6:45 pm

Tosh,

Did you have this same disdain for the whole 527 thing when moveon.org was trying to buy ad time at the Superbowl, etc.? Would you say that the Democrats have made sufficient objections to moveon.org and similar anti-Bush campaigns?

Also, many conservatives, like myself, were willing to give Kerry his props for his service. What I have had issues with was the fact that he featured his service in-country as a major portion of his "schpeal", and yet almost completely glosses over what happened in the time immediately following that. The throwing medals away, etc. Can I trust him to have a fair hand with the military? That's a question I have, and so do many others, obviously. I fail to see why this isn't a legit question.

Also, I don't see that Bush, et. al. have a responsibility to take steps to put down a group like the Swiftboat gang. I certainly saw NO effort to put a stop to moveon.org by those that didn't care for Bush.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 28, 2004, 7:27 pm

Metanis wrote:
Toshira wrote: Bush wins by TKO.
Your analysis was pretty good.

It bears repeating loudly and often that Kerry chose the battlefield on which this has played out.

He should have made sure the vets he was smearing weren't going to retaliate.

Good point.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » August 29, 2004, 11:33 am

Winnow wrote:You overblow the importance of this issue. Clinton and Bush were elected and their service in Vietnam wasn't a major factor.

All the old hippies probably love Bush for his Vietnam dodging skills and others also realize that time served in Vietnam doesn't have anything to do with who will be the better presdent. If Kerry had his change of heart a year before he served, he would have been dodging as well. As it was, he found the fastest ticket out of there and bashed our servicemen afterwards so I really don't see it helping him.

This is a very very very valid argument, if it is not at a "war time"
Who do you want to lead your country in a war? The best generals usually arnt rich spoiled drunkards that are too cowardly to have sighned up for service to defend there country.
Of course I have 0 respect for anyone starting a pointless war such as lraq after he was too much of a coward to serve. I would accept a law stating that any President that approve of a war, must be present on most major battlefields of that war, in one form or another. See how many selfish asshole presidents try to start a bullshit war then...

Rasspotari · Post by **Rasspotari** » August 30, 2004, 7:26 pm

which do you yanks think is more important, having a president that will make the best of that economy of yours and improving the living standard in america as best he can.
or someone that is really good at giving orders in war times.

which is more important to you and which do you think will take longer time to get better at ?

seeing as how both your options are crappy, your vote dont matter shit.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 30, 2004, 7:44 pm

Rasspotari wrote:which do you yanks think is more important, having a president that will make the best of that economy of yours and improving the living standard in america as best he can.
or someone that is really good at giving orders in war times.

which is more important to you and which do you think will take longer time to get better at ?

seeing as how both your options are crappy, your vote dont matter shit.

I want a president that kicks ass! I'll concede the 2008 election to the democrats so they can clean this shit up for our next run at world domination circa 2012.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 30, 2004, 7:48 pm

Well at least you admit that Republicans are useless and only create a mess for the real politicians to clean up!

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » August 30, 2004, 9:30 pm

America will be the next Rome.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » August 30, 2004, 9:46 pm

Raistin wrote:America will be the next Rome.

Oh gee thanks Mr. Insight!

Raistin bets that world superpowers fall over time, details at 11

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » August 31, 2004, 12:50 am

Raistin wrote:America will be the next Rome.

We'd be fortunate to stay on top half as long as Rome.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 31, 2004, 2:23 am

Mplor wrote:
Raistin wrote:America will be the next Rome.
We'd be fortunate to stay on top half as long as Rome.

No shit. Rome rocked. Greatest empire ever. Pax Romana is still the longest era of peace in recorded history. 150+ years of peace isn't too shabby. They built a huge network of roads and aquaducts. Roman cities had water and sewage systems, theaters, and public baths.

I hope we're the next Rome because we're due for 100+ years of peace if so!

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » August 31, 2004, 3:35 am

Yeah.. but see... when the Romans conquered people they made them citizens..

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » August 31, 2004, 4:01 am

Yeah.. but see... when the Romans conquered people they made them citizens..

Zaelath

Yea, but when we do in modern times...We free them from there dictatorship and let them be there own citizens with a democracy to were they can be ran for there particular people due time...

Some References on the citizenship thing in modern times: Japan, Germany, France occupied by Germany, Many islands occupied by Japan, Italy, Part of North Africa occupied by Germany, Austria occupied by Germany, S. Korea..Vietnam, but they were taken over. Afganistan and Iraq I hope in the future.

Freedom is our cause and is the most powerful force ever unleased on man. Freedom destorys dictatorships it destroys fanatical religious ran governments. Free people do not want to war....How many democracy's have declared war on each other? If any not many maybe the civil wars are about it.

Republicans.... freed the slaves, stopped jim crow laws, pushed the civil rights legislation in congress...elected many of the first of minorities in office or appointed...Powell, Mrs. Dole, Rice ect. We do it...not just lip service on emotions and false acusations.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 31, 2004, 11:08 am

Sirton never fails to entertain me with his fairy tale view of life.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 31, 2004, 11:36 am

Kelshara wrote:Sirton never fails to entertain me with his fairy tale view of life.

Do you need me to read you a bed time story? I'll be sure not to turn out the light because I wouldn't want you to be afraid of the dark.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 31, 2004, 11:41 am

Metanis wrote:
Kelshara wrote:Sirton never fails to entertain me with his fairy tale view of life.
Do you need me to read you a bed time story? I'll be sure not to turn out the light because I wouldn't want you to be afraid of the dark.

Dont Worry he has his Nightie Light.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 31, 2004, 11:59 am

Cartalas wrote:
Metanis wrote:
Kelshara wrote:Sirton never fails to entertain me with his fairy tale view of life.
Do you need me to read you a bed time story? I'll be sure not to turn out the light because I wouldn't want you to be afraid of the dark.
Dont Worry he has his Nightie Light.

"She"

I'm convinced Kelshara is a girl.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 31, 2004, 12:12 pm

rofl well that fits in with a lot of other delusional beliefs you got.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » August 31, 2004, 2:33 pm

Raistin wrote:America will be the next Rome.

Does this mean we are going to be invaded by the Canadians?

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » August 31, 2004, 2:36 pm

Bubba Grizz wrote:
Raistin wrote:America will be the next Rome.
Does this mean we are going to be invaded by the Canadians?

I think our entire system of government would collapse if the U.S. ceased to exist. We'd turn our attention on our own politicians for once and go "HOLY SHIT!" and have to kill them. So no, you have nothing to fear from us. Pay no attention to our sudden massing near your border.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 31, 2004, 2:43 pm

Niffoni wrote:
Bubba Grizz wrote:
Raistin wrote:America will be the next Rome.
Does this mean we are going to be invaded by the Canadians?
I think our entire system of government would collapse if the U.S. ceased to exist. We'd turn our attention on our own politicians for once and go "HOLY SHIT!" and have to kill them. So no, you have nothing to fear from us. Pay no attention to our sudden massing near your border.

We're not worried. We know you are huddling down here for warmth.

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » August 31, 2004, 2:56 pm

lol, Metanis broke the code!

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » August 31, 2004, 3:36 pm

condoleeza rice is the second biggest piece of shit to ever hold a position in the govt. imo.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » August 31, 2004, 6:04 pm

Stragi wrote:condoleeza rice is the second biggest piece of shit to ever hold a position in the govt. imo.

ooh ooh! *raises hand*

Who's the first?

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » September 2, 2004, 9:35 pm

Winnow wrote:
Mplor wrote:
Raistin wrote:America will be the next Rome.
We'd be fortunate to stay on top half as long as Rome.
No shit. Rome rocked. Greatest empire ever. Pax Romana is still the longest era of peace in recorded history. 150+ years of peace isn't too shabby. They built a huge network of roads and aquaducts. Roman cities had water and sewage systems, theaters, and public baths.

I hope we're the next Rome because we're due for 100+ years of peace if so!

Umm Rome never had peace, they were always fighting wars, just not in Rome proper.So we are already there. Next we hire mercenaries.

murr · Post by **murr** » September 2, 2004, 10:06 pm

john kerry voted to kill our soldiers and voted against school funding and voted to kill old people and rape babies

VeeshanVault

The Brilliance of the Republicans (long)

The Brilliance of the Republicans (long)

Re: The Brilliance of the Republicans (long)

Re: The Brilliance of the Republicans (long)