The Muslims are at it again

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 28, 2004, 9:05 pm

More "radical" peaceful muslims.

Explosive Found in Second Russian Jet

Saturday, August 28, 2004

MOSCOW — Officials said Saturday they had found traces of an explosive on the wreckage of the second of two Russian airliners that crashed just minutes apart earlier this week. That would indicate terrorists caused both aviation tragedies.

Evidence of the explosive hexogen were found on the Tu-134 jetliner that crashed Tuesday in the Tula region, about 100 miles south of Moscow, said Sergei Ignatchenko, spokesman for the Federal Security Service (search).

Discovery of the explosive residue on the second jetliner was revealed one day after authorities said residue of the same explosive material was found on the wreckage of a Tu-154 that crashed farther south in Russia, near the town of Rostov.

Officials said the explosive residue showed terrorists brought down that plane.

Both planes crashed Tuesday night after taking off from Moscow's Domodedovo airport, one of Russia's most modern and sophisticated air hubs. A total of 90 people were killed in the disasters.

The findings of explosives indicated significant weaknesses in security for the air transport network that spans the vast country.

The crashes took place just five days before residents of the warring predominantly Muslim republic of Chechnya were to go to the polls to choose a president in an election that the Kremlin portrays as a step toward restoring civil order in the region.

Officials had warned that Chechen separatist rebels could resort to terrorism to try to undermine the Sunday voting. The Kremlin refuses to negotiate with the rebels.

A Web site connected to Islamic militants claimed the crashes were retaliation for Russia's ongoing war in Chechnya, and Russian officials said they were investigating the backgrounds of two female passengers with Chechen surnames — one on each of the planes.

Several suicide bombings in recent years have been blamed on Chechen women who lost husbands or brothers in the war and chaos that have plagued the southern republic for most of the past decade.

On Saturday, the newspaper Izvestia cited a Chechen village leader, Dogman Akhmadov, as saying that the brother of one of the suspect women had disappeared three or four years ago and was believed to have fallen victim to Russian forces who are widely accused of civilian abductions and summary executions in Chechnya.

Both women had booked tickets on the flights at the last minute and were the only victims whose relatives have not contacted authorities, officials said. One of the women gave only her surname and first initial in booking the ticket, according to reports.

The Transport Ministry said Saturday that passengers on domestic flights now will be obliged to show full passport details on their tickets, ITAR-Tass reported, citing an unidentified ministry official who said the measure will "make the process of documenting passengers and baggage more transparent and controlled."

Russian citizens have separate passports for internal and foreign travel.

The first official confirmation that terrorists infiltrated Russia's civil aviation system — a vital industry in this vast nation — otherwise prompted only a muted official response, with Russian authorities avoiding drastic measures such as closing airspace or grounding flights.

President Vladimir Putin (search) made no public comment on the discovery of traces of explosives three days after what one major newspaper called Russia's Sept. 11.

Hexogen was identified as the explosive in a series of 1999 apartment-building bombings that killed some 300 people in Moscow and other cities and that were blamed on Chechen separatists.

The bombings led in part to Putin's decision to send troops back into the region. Despite his high popularity ratings, Putin's presidency has been marred by persistent fighting in Chechnya and deadly bombings beyond its borders.

A Web site statement that appeared Friday was signed the "Islambouli Brigades" and claimed responsibility for the crashes, warning that they marked just the first in a series of planned operations. The claim's veracity could not be confirmed.

"Russia's slaughtering of Muslims is continuing and will only stop when a bloody war is launched," the statement said. It said five "mujahedeen" — holy fighters — were aboard each plane.

Russian officials have repeatedly contended that the rebels who have been fighting Russian forces in Chechnya for nearly five years receive help from foreign terrorist organizations, including Al Qaeda.

Friday's claim did not refer to Al Qaeda, but a group called "the Islambouli Brigades of Al Qaeda" claimed responsibility for last month's attempt to assassinate Pakistan's prime minister-designate.

Paul Duffy, a Moscow-based aviation expert, told Associated Press Television he found it "hard to believe" that five attackers were aboard each plane, but said "there is no doubt that they had one at least on each aircraft."

Representatives of Chechen rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov (search) have denied connection to the crashes. But Maskhadov, who led Chechnya during its 1996-99 period of de-facto independence, is believed to control only a small portion of Chechnya's fighters.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 28, 2004, 9:07 pm

is this the first time you've read the news? these non muslims that are calling themselves americans have been blowing shit up in Iraq for a year and a half now.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » August 28, 2004, 9:09 pm

Why Muslim, why not just say Terrorist. You're grouping an entire group together which is wrong.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 28, 2004, 9:13 pm

Lynks wrote:Why Muslim, why not just say Terrorist. You're grouping an entire group together which is wrong.

How would one investigate a crime if they don't look into why someone did it?

And how many planes have been terrorized, blown up, by a believer of Buddha?

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » August 28, 2004, 9:15 pm

You're right, every muslim on earth is bad and will go to hell.

bigot.

Krurk · Post by **Krurk** » August 28, 2004, 9:16 pm

Afterall, Muslims should behave and respect their betters....

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_in ... on">Reason #13 for Muslims to not like you</a>

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 28, 2004, 9:16 pm

Lynks wrote:You're right, every muslim on earth is bad and will go to hell.

bigot.

I didn't say that. You racist piece of shit.

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » August 28, 2004, 9:18 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Lynks wrote:Why Muslim, why not just say Terrorist. You're grouping an entire group together which is wrong.
How would one investigate a crime if they don't look into why someone did it?

And how many planes have been terrorized, blown up, by a believer of Buddha?

How many millions of people have been killed in the name of Christianity? There is possibly a correlation between the two (Muslim and terrorist today), but there is no established causality (e.g.. there are millions of peaceful Muslim americans living in the US, there are millions of peaceful Muslims living in India, Indonesia, Pakastan, England, France, etc, there are millions of Muslims that are of races other than Arabic)

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 28, 2004, 9:18 pm

Krurk wrote:Afterall, Muslims should behave and respect their betters....

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_in ... on">Reason #13 for Muslims to not like you</a>

Then in your pathetic reasoning, Americans should still be waring with Britain. God damn you are dumb and ignorant.

The Strategist? LOL Real smart fella you are.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 28, 2004, 9:21 pm

1. There is a thread on this here already.
2. The atrocities done by the Russian army in Chechnya are worse than anything the Chechnians have done.
3. There is yet to be any proof of this being done by Muslims.
4. The website taking responsibility is not directly linked to Chechnians.
5. I hope your son (if you have one) turns gay and starts dating a black muslim.
6. I'd say go to hell you piece of ignorant shit but I don't believe in a Hell. My definition of Hell would be your sad, pathetic little life.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 28, 2004, 9:23 pm

Kelshara wrote: 5. I hope your son (if you have one) turns gay and starts dating a black muslim.
6. I'd say go to hell you piece of ignorant shit but I don't believe in a Hell. My definition of Hell would be your sad, pathetic little life.

There you go again. Showing your true colors. You really shouldn't be so HATEFUL.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » August 28, 2004, 9:24 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Lynks wrote:You're right, every muslim on earth is bad and will go to hell.

bigot.
I didn't say that. You racist piece of shit.

How am I a racist? Please explain.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 28, 2004, 9:27 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Kelshara wrote: 5. I hope your son (if you have one) turns gay and starts dating a black muslim.
6. I'd say go to hell you piece of ignorant shit but I don't believe in a Hell. My definition of Hell would be your sad, pathetic little life.
There you go again. Showing your true colors. You really shouldn't be so HATEFUL.

See the title and first post of this thread you idiot.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » August 28, 2004, 9:29 pm

Actually Mid, this has more to do with the break-away republics from the former Soviet Union. The fact that they are/were Muslims may have contributed to the factioning of the Soviet Lands - but as I understood it, it was more related to the killing of Muslims in Chechnya (a battle over land), than it had to do with purely idealogical reasons (Jihad, killing infidels and what not).

So, if we go back to root causes instead of striking at the branch, it's clear to see that this is Reagan's fault for single-handedly breaking up the USSR.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 28, 2004, 9:32 pm

Toshira wrote:Actually Mid, this has more to do with the break-away republics from the former Soviet Union. The fact that they are/were Muslims may have contributed to the factioning of the Soviet Lands - but as I understood it, it was more related to the killing of Muslims in Chechnya (a battle over land), than it had to do with purely idealogical reasons (Jihad, killing infidels and what not).

So, if we go back to root causes instead of striking at the branch, it's clear to see that this is Reagan's fault for single-handedly breaking up the USSR.

Very intesting Tosh, thanks. Funny Reagan comment hehe. Defintely have been some downsides to the Soviet Union breaking up, besides all the positives.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » August 28, 2004, 9:33 pm

Well...

I wouldn't be so quick to pin it on the chechens. For all we know, it could be some other group within Russia that is unhappy about the state of things in the country. The Russians of course will immediately pin it on them...

-=Lohrno

Krurk · Post by **Krurk** » August 28, 2004, 9:33 pm

Midnyte, why don't you try something new and post something intelligent that is not a complete copy from some right wing nutcase author.

Here, let me give you some examples...

The United States is committed towards promoting democracy within the Middle East. However, the United States government, under pressure from House Republicans, supported military intervention in Pakistan, Algeria and Turkey to force publically elected officials out of office. Can you explain what benefits the United States gains from this move?

Here's another one...

Many in the Western world find the status of women in the Middle East to be deplorable because of limitations places upon individual freedoms for women. Such restrictions include the inability to work in certain careers, the use of a veil to cover their face in public, sacrificing property rights to their husband, and the denial of education past a basic elementary level. However, one of the most progrssive countries in terms of women's rights was Iraq, where women were allowed to expose themselves in public without fear of reprisal, and the majority of medical professionals were female. What can the West do to encourage a change in women's rights with respect to their religious upbringing?

Let's try an easy one...

Saudi Arabia has one of the worst human rights records of any major country, yet the Bush administration (and preceeding administrations) refuse to pressure the Saudi royal family to adopt significant change. Why might the US be hesitant to intervene?

Yea, sorry I am a close minded idiot and just can't wrap my tiny little brain around complex issues.

Krurk · Post by **Krurk** » August 28, 2004, 9:39 pm

...or I could just go for the good old fashioned flame, something that I have noticed a real lack of since the foh-ct wars ended.

I've left steamy shits behind in public bathrooms with enough intelligence to own your weak ass neocon talking point spewing ass

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 28, 2004, 9:46 pm

Krurk wrote:...or I could just go for the good old fashioned flame, something that I have noticed a real lack of since the foh-ct wars ended.

I've left steamy shits behind in public bathrooms with enough intelligence to own your weak ass neocon talking point spewing ass

The flame was good.

I can't answer your questions. I just don't have a crystal ball. Are countries in bed together with the US? Yes. Would different countries be in bed with a different president? Yes.

I guess you prefer inaction? You can sit and be a Monday morning quarterback, it's a very easy thing to do. The thing is people 100 times smarter than you and I, are in positions where they have to make these decisions. They have much more information and expertise at their fingertips than you and I. Will there always be people who do things for other than the best intended reasons? Yes.

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » August 28, 2004, 10:15 pm

I love watching Mid bait the libs. He's kind of a one-trick pony, but they still seem to go for it.

EDIT: My mistake, I assumed he was kidding. Now I'm not so sure.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » August 28, 2004, 10:16 pm

I'm not reading your post. I don't care what it says.
But after reading the top header, I have this to say:

Shut. The. Fuck. Up. Please.

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » August 29, 2004, 12:38 am

I second!

I respect you as a friend Mid, but lately you have really been going way too fucking far

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » August 29, 2004, 1:34 am

Don't forget molested in the name of Christianity!!!

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » August 29, 2004, 4:57 am

And how many planes have been terrorized, blown up, by a believer of Buddha?

Even Buddhism has had it;s fair share of violence. It's not about the core religion, it is about how it is manipulated by people in power.

Think of all the different forms of Christianity and different types of people following that religion. There are easily as many forms and followers of Islam, but you only hear about the ones blowing shit up. This is where your ignorance comes from.

You are never exposed to the peaceful side of Islam because the terrorists get so much media coverage(which is exactly what they want, btw). News doesn't show the many peaceful Islamic protests in Palestine, it shows you the suicide bombers or beheaded hostages. News is about making money, and violence and conflict sells, which means basing your opinions solely on what you know from the media is moronic. When the only Mulsim people you have ever seen are the ones commiting terrible acts in the media, then you can easily see where your fucked up viewpoint comes from.

Maybe try to research and learn about the peaceful side of Islam instead of blindly continuing on your path of following mainstream media and forming opinions and you won't come off as such a hateful bigot.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » August 29, 2004, 5:22 am

Kelshara wrote:6. I'd say go to hell you piece of ignorant shit but I don't believe in a Hell. My definition of Hell would be your sad, pathetic little life.

Stand up and take a bow, sir.

noel · Post by **noel** » August 29, 2004, 5:34 am

Midnyte, just shut up.

Go somewhere outside your world for a while and come back when you have some perspective. Jesus Christ you're fucking myopic.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 29, 2004, 8:38 am

Wait a second isint this the same group that said "saying shit about jews was not racisct because its not a race but a religion", But in Kerry fashion I see you all have Flip Flopped again when midnyte says something about muslims. Isint Muslim a religion? Keep up the good work guys.

Drolgin Steingrinder · August 29, 2004, 8:50 am

Find that quote please, Cart.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » August 29, 2004, 9:50 am

I've never said that, nor do I not know anyone who said that.

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » August 29, 2004, 10:03 am

Cartalas wrote:Wait a second isint this the same group that said "saying shit about jews was not racisct because its not a race but a religion", But in Kerry fashion I see you all have Flip Flopped again when midnyte says something about muslims. Isint Muslim a religion? Keep up the good work guys.

Quote ANYTHING by me that says anything remotely like that.

p.s. That exact comment would actually be correct. Saying things about Muslims or Jews is not a form of racism because they are religous groups not races. It is no less wrong, it just isn't racism.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » August 29, 2004, 10:05 am

I call it bigotry.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » August 29, 2004, 11:25 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Kelshara wrote: 5. I hope your son (if you have one) turns gay and starts dating a black muslim.
6. I'd say go to hell you piece of ignorant shit but I don't believe in a Hell. My definition of Hell would be your sad, pathetic little life.
There you go again. Showing your true colors. You really shouldn't be so HATEFUL.

Theres nothing hateful of what you said. Its actually hopeful becouse if such happened we hope that you would recieve a better understanding of culture and tolerance. Of course you hate gay people and muslims so that would be hateful in your eyes...

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » August 29, 2004, 1:07 pm

Current event

In Sri Lanka the 20th century civil war between the mostly Buddhist Sinhalese majority and the Hindu Tamil minority has cost 50,000 lives

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 29, 2004, 1:30 pm

The thing is people 100 times smarter than you and I, are in positions where they have to make these decisions.

lol. classic midnyte response. As long as you put your faith in people smarter than yourself to make important decisions for you you'll be alright buddy. Dubya is a good example of one of those people, so is my neighbors eight year old daughter, so is this guy:

Sad thing is, without even knowing it, you acknowledge your own naivety and credulity with every post you make. You flaunt your stupidity as if it is something to be admired, like those who can excrete the most vile and noxious farts and are proud to do so. While you thoroughly fulfill your role as the village idiot, the rest of us enjoy a good laugh at your expense. It's like VV is smurf village, and you're clumsy smurf's inbred son. Keep on fighting the good fight sir! The hilarity makes it all worthwhile.

Mak · Post by **Mak** » August 29, 2004, 2:58 pm

Here's my question:

Why is it when someone like Midnyte makes a sweeping negative statement about Muslims he's a bigot, racist, etc., but when other people make a sweeping negative statement about Christians they're not?

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » August 29, 2004, 3:05 pm

I think they're bigots then too, and say as much.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 29, 2004, 3:19 pm

Mak wrote:Here's my question:

Why is it when someone like Midnyte makes a sweeping negative statement about Muslims he's a bigot, racist, etc., but when other people make a sweeping negative statement about Christians they're not?

As one of those that you would probably call anti-Christian (which isn't really true.. I am anti-fanatic of any religion) I would never say "Christians at it again" when a couple of nutcases bombed an abortion clinic.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 29, 2004, 9:38 pm

Kelshara wrote:
Mak wrote:Here's my question:

Why is it when someone like Midnyte makes a sweeping negative statement about Muslims he's a bigot, racist, etc., but when other people make a sweeping negative statement about Christians they're not?
As one of those that you would probably call anti-Christian (which isn't really true.. I am anti-fanatic of any religion) I would never say "Christians at it again" when a couple of nutcases bombed an abortion clinic.

The big difference is when a nutcase group of christians do that in the name of their religion you can't find the justification for their pathetic actions in their bible. When Muslims do it, you can.

Stop, refusing to see what is right before thine eyes.

Rasspotari · Post by **Rasspotari** » August 29, 2004, 9:40 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Lynks wrote:You're right, every muslim on earth is bad and will go to hell.

bigot.
I didn't say that. You racist piece of shit.

bwhahahaha

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 29, 2004, 9:42 pm

Bunch of bullshit and you know it. You wouldn't see a truth you disagreed with if it smacked you in the face. You know NOTHING about Muslims, about Islam or about the Koran. In fact I dare say you know nothing about the Bible or Christianity as well.. I highly doubt you know anything about what is going on outside of your trailer parks.. that is except the quickest ways to deliver pizzas.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 29, 2004, 9:56 pm

Kelshara wrote:Bunch of bullshit and you know it. You wouldn't see a truth you disagreed with if it smacked you in the face. You know NOTHING about Muslims, about Islam or about the Koran. In fact I dare say you know nothing about the Bible or Christianity as well.. I highly doubt you know anything about what is going on outside of your trailer parks.. that is except the quickest ways to deliver pizzas.

Bullshit? hmmmmm

I've posted the violent, hate-filled, war mongering quotes from the Quran. Let me see how full of knowledge you are and you go ahead and post the quotes from the bible that support your stance.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 29, 2004, 9:59 pm

show me passages in the koran that condone violence towards innocent people.

have you even read the old testament? there's more killing in it than a tarantino movie.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » August 30, 2004, 12:43 am

kyoukan wrote: have you even read the old testament? there's more killing in it than a tarantino movie.

Yes but, it's always the womenfolk who are causin trouble.

Vaemas · Post by **Vaemas** » August 30, 2004, 1:19 am

Just like any book, verses from the Qur'an can be turned to support one thing or the other. I'm not personally endorsing this site or the views therein, but here's an interesting perspective on violence and Islam.

Koran 17:16-17
When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet transgress; so that Allah's word is proved true against them: then we destroy them utterly. How many generations have we destroyed after Noah? And enough is thy Lord to note and see the Sins of his servants

Here Allah, the God of the Muslims is clearly stating the exact method that he adopts when he commits genocide of an entire POPULATION. And why does Allah decide to destroy entire populations? Simply because they don't believe in Allah and so Allah will kill them all, to take revenge. Next Allah is indulging in an unbelievable display of conceit. He is actually BOASTING about how many generations he has destroyed after Noah. If Allah had a list of his merits, no doubt genocide of numerous generations of people would top his list. Allah enjoys watching the annhilation of thousands of Non-Muslims at the hands of his pious followers, the Muslims.

from http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayat ... rist2.html

From the opposite side of the coin, specifically the much quoted phrase:

The Koran specifically declares: "If anyone murders an (innocent) person...it will be as if he has murdered the whole of humanity." It goes on: "And if anyone saves a person it will be as if he has saved the whole of humanity."

from http://www.iberr.co.za/quransays.htm

In the end, it isn't about Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, etc. specifically. The main issue concerns the hard-line fanatics who continue to operate at a level of barbarism that is not acceptable in today's "modern" society. Sure, the Catholic church held the Spanish Inquisition and murdered hundreds (thousands? I can't remember) of innocent people. Yes, the crusades were conducted at the behest of the "Church" and killed thousands of Muslims and Christians alike. You would have to be a blind fool to be able to justify those actions in today's society.

Using religion to justify the taking of lives has been a constant throughout recorded history. Whether to appease the gods with sacrifice or to exact revenge and judgement for inequities, humanity has a long, violent, and bloody past. Unfortuantely, you cannot simply apply a sweeping approval or disapproval to all current or past actions because we believe that killing is wrong or barbaric.

Suppose that the two Russian planes were bombed by Chechens. They are a people being oppressed (depending on your point of view, they may be rebels, breaking away from Russia, not unlike the Confederate States during America's Civil War) by the Russian Army because the President of Russia is determined to maintain a hold on territory that "belongs" to mother Russia. I don't condone the actions taken by Russia nor by Chechnya and I don't have a solution to their problem

Similarly with America, Israel, Islam, and the Middle East conflicts, I have no solution that will appease everyone. America has committed herself to a conflict in Iraq that may outlast Vietnam. We stepped in to overthrow Saddam and combat "terrorism" (yeah, we wanted oil, too, but whatever), but I think we grossly underestimated the length of time it would take to rebuild Iraq in the image America's decision-makers wanted.

I think all the way around this is going to get much, much worse before it gets better. So yeah, I derailed from the original topic. Lumping all Muslims in with Terrorism is very generalist and a gross oversimplification. In the end, it doesn't really matter what the holy books of Islam say, what matters is how the Islamic leaders decide to interpret the writings, especially when their followers are ignorant and do not think for themselves.

Vaemas · Post by **Vaemas** » August 30, 2004, 1:36 am

As a follow-up on Chechnya (specifically, but IWPR covers the world in general), take a look over here (again, not endorsing the site):

http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/ca ... _1_eng.txt

Le Monde's Moscow correspondent Natalie Nougayrede, who had obtained a secret official 30-page document chronicling the continuing murder of civilians and discovery of mass graves in Chechnya, brought the current situation to light in a recent article.

The document - apparently compiled by Chechen official Sheiakhmed Abdurakhmanov, who deals with missing persons - recorded that 1,314 Chechen civilians had been killed in 2002, not including those who died in fighting. It also records that nearly 3,000 corpses had been found in mass graves in Chechnya.

Moscow denied any knowledge of the document and it was barely reported in the media. The Russian authorities routinely deny all reports of human rights abuses in Chechnya, or justify them on grounds of security.

Chechnya's pro-Moscow administration head Akhmad Kadyrov called the Le Monde document a forgery and an "attempt to distort the true situation, which is normalising after the referendum."

However, several officials in Kadyrov's government have now made statements very similar to the Le Monde report.

Sheiakhmed Abdurakhmano, in an interview with the Chechen newspaper Vesti Respubliki in February this year, gave a list of statistics that were almost as bad as in the Le Monde report. He said that 1,178 people had been killed in the first nine months of 2002 and 654 had disappeared.

"No one has any exact statistics on this issue," Abdurakhmanov said. "And if anyone possesses them, then I think they will be terrifying. Don't forget that we are talking about civilian casualties."

In another recent interview Chechnya's deputy prime minister Movsur Khamidov said that 2,500 Chechens had disappeared without trace in two wars and 49 mass graves had been discovered.