Israel making things more fun in the middle east

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 21, 2004, 10:05 pm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0 ... 91,00.html

sraeli military and intelligence operatives are active in Kurdish areas of Iran, Syria and Iraq, providing training for commando units and running covert operations that could further destabilise the entire region, according to a report in the New Yorker magazine.

The article was written by Seymour Hersh, the Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter who exposed the abuse scandal in Abu Ghraib. It is sourced primarily to unnamed former and current intelligence officials in Israel, the United States and Turkey.

Israel's aims, according to Hersh, are to build up the Kurdish military strength in order to offset the strength of the Shia militias and to create a base in Iran from which they can spy on Iran's suspected nuclear-making facilities.

"Israel has always supported the Kurds in a Machiavellian way - a balance against Saddam," one former Israeli intelligence officer told the New Yorker. "It's Realpolitik. By aligning with the Kurds Israel gains eyes and ears in Iran, Iraq and Syria. The critical question is 'What will the behaviour of Iran be if there is an independent Kurdistan with close ties to Israel? Iran does not want an Israeli land-based aircraft carrier on its border."

By supporting Kurdish separatists, Israel also risks alienating its Turkish ally and undermining attempts to create a stable Iraq. "If you end up with a divided Iraq it will bring more blood, tears and pain to the Middle East and you will be blamed," a senior Turkish official told Mr Hersh.

Intel Brief, an intelligence newsletter produced by former CIA chiefs, noted early this month that the Israeli actions are placing increasing stress on their relationship with Turkey, which was already strained over the war. "The Turks are increasingly concerned by the expanding Israeli presence in Kurdistan and alleged encouragement of Kurdish ambitions to create an independent state."

According to Mr Hersh, Israel decided to step up its role in Kurdistan last summer after it was clear that the United States incursion into Iraq was failing, principally because it feared the chaos would strengthen Iran. The Israelis are particularly concerned that Iran may be developing a nuclear capability.

Iran said on Saturday it would reconsider its suspension of some uranium enrichment activities after the International Atomic Energy Agency issued a resolution deploring Iran's limited cooperation with the agency.

In the autumn the former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak told the US vice president, Dick Cheney, that America had lost in Iraq. Israel "had learned that there's no way to win an occupation," he told Mr Cheney, and the only issue was "choosing the size of your humiliation".

From July last year, argues Mr Hersh, the Israeli government started what one former Israeli intelligence official called "Plan B" in order to protect itself from the fallout of the chaos prompted by America's failure ahead of June 30. If the June 30 transfer of sovereignty does not go well, "there is no fallback, nothing," a former National Security Council member tells Hersh. "The neocons still think they can pull the rabbit out of the hat in Iraq," a former intelligence official says. "What's the plan? They say, 'We don't need it. Democracy is strong enough. We'll work it out.'"

Israel has a longstanding relationship with the Kurds, whom they regard as one of the few non-Arab allies in the area. The Iraqi Kurds, who played a key role in providing the United States with intelligence ahead of the war, have been angered by the United Nations resolution on Iraq earlier this month. The resolution did not affirm the interim constitution that granted them minority veto power in a permanent constitution and so could potentially leave them sidelined.

One Turkish official told Mr Hersh that Kurdish independence would be calamitous for the region. "The lesson of Yugoslavia is that when you give one country independence everybody will want it. Kirkuk will be the Sarajevo of Iraq. If something happens there, it will be impossible to contain the crisis."

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » June 21, 2004, 11:13 pm

Fucking animals.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » June 21, 2004, 11:16 pm

Man I fucking hate Israel. That worthless rock of jewish retirement real estate has caused us nothing but grief since its inception (which was a parting buttfuck on the part of the British). I do not harbor any antisemetic prejudices, but for fucks sake why do we allow these lobbies to pressure us into punping billions into this shit hole country, when all they do is fuck us in the ass? They fucking spied on us FOR the KGB. They extorted newer version patriot missle systems out of us during the first Gulf War. They continually invade and seize the property of their neighboring countries. We would be a LOT better off diplomatically if we just cut those fuckers loose and relied on the far more stable and respectable Egypt for a middle eastern "ally".

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 21, 2004, 11:19 pm

Well Egypt does win comparative peace prizes, but not sure I would want them for an ally either.

Yeah backing Israel is starting to look more and more of a mistake each year, but I do think at this point we have an obligation to assist in securing their border I also think we should make it clear that we will no longer back them if they continue to expect us to.

Arilain · Post by **Arilain** » June 21, 2004, 11:40 pm

Consider this about Isreal....

Many government officials will tell you that the only reason why Isreal does not nuke the crap out of Arab countries is the US keeping them restrained. Isreal can literally start another world war, and alarmingly post 9/11 has rebuked the US on several policies. Iran is not exactly a peaceful nieghbor and has advocated the destruction of Jews many times, they also are the main supporter of the terrorist groups in Isreal. What we are really looking at is a religious cold war that does not have an easy solution.

Oh on another note that author did not expose the Abu Ghraid abuse scandle. The Army had release a press release about months before it hit the public and that by the time the news blew it up and endangered lives over there conditions had improved.

I wish the guy had more than a few sources to go on and I would like to know how he got the sources for this article.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » June 22, 2004, 12:05 am

Problem is, the Brits used post-holocaust sympathy to force the creation of a Jewish state in the middle east, something they didn't bother to get the consent of the arab nations for. It was done out of some religious dogma regarding the middle east being their holy land (despite the fact that they didn't seem to mind leaving it in the first place) and the fact that the europeans probably didn't want a Jesuit nation within europe itself. In short, they dumped a load of shit on the region and the Arabs have been really pissed, ever since. Israel has not even remotely tried to be peaceful and civil about it. I am not trying to justify Iran's policies toward them, but it hasn't been exactly without provocation.

The fact that we know Israel will likely be the next nation to use nuclear weapons is the only thing that keeps us there at all. IF the entire world didn't revolve around oil, it would be best to just pull out and let the fuckers glass themselves. Iran knows this, which is why they are working toward nukes so ferverently. Threat of nuclear retaliation is the only means of keeping Israel and the US from hostile action. At least, thats how they view it.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 22, 2004, 1:13 am

They should have placed the Israel nation in Canada right next to the french in Quebec. If not that, then...

I would have even gone so far as to give up 20 miles of US territory inside the Alaska/Canada border for the Israel nation as long as Canada did the same on their side. You'd have a nice 40 mile wide strip of land for the jews to live in peace.

I don't think you would have much opposition from Canada or the US if we moved Israel to the new location!

PS: leave your nukes in the middle east!

Arilain · Post by **Arilain** » June 22, 2004, 1:30 am

Ummm....Jesuits are a Catholic sect. You mean Zionist I think Jice. The problem with the middle east is that there are no good guys to support. However consider this abot restraint...In Desert Storm Iraq was sending scud missles into Isreal and with a great amount of pressure from the US and European countries they did not get involed in the war even though they wanted to. With that said, lets imagine Canada sending scud missles into the US. Would we be pacifist about it? I think not.

By the way Winnow I agree with your idea. What would you consider the sales pitch to get them to move to Canada though? I mean you do have things like Celine Dion that the Canadians can use as a weapon of mass destruction.

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » June 22, 2004, 1:33 am

But ... but ... how can Jesus reappear on Mount Zion if the Israelis don't raze the Dome of the Rock and rebuild the Temple of Solomon, inciting a regional conflagration (aka Armageddon) in the process?!>!

Man alive, we're fooked.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » June 22, 2004, 1:57 am

Bah yeah your right, brain fart. Meant Zionists.

As for the Gulf War thing, Israel could have already had older version Patriot missles at the time of the Gulf War, but they basically told us "fuck you we want the new stuff" and wound up extorting it out of us once the scuds started flying.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 22, 2004, 8:25 am

Jice Virago wrote:It was done out of some religious dogma regarding the middle east being their holy land (despite the fact that they didn't seem to mind leaving it in the first place) and the fact that the europeans probably didn't want a Jesuit nation within europe itself.

It wasn't just the Europeans, the west (inculding us in NA) refused to take in the jewish refugees.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 22, 2004, 8:25 am

Israel is now trying to get compensation from Iraq for the property rights of jews that emigrated to Israel from Iraq in the early 50s. I find it hilarious they have the gaul to do this while they are flattening the occupied territories with bulldozers.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 22, 2004, 10:03 am

Yeah Israel is a rather shitty ally, on par with the various South Vietnamese governments.

So what is a workable solution?

We can withdraw all support, which means they could handle themselves in the initial war but within 20 years they would lose to the next attack.

We could make them a client state, but of course that would involve having to nuke someone

We could continue as thigns are with everyone in the middle east pissed at us.

None of the choices are great, so how do we fix the mistakes made by every US administration with regards to Israel since their formation?

Arilain · Post by **Arilain** » June 22, 2004, 10:14 am

The worst mistake that we can make is to leave Isreal alone. Those guys show incredible restraint and are still pretty damn ruthless. if it were not for us holding them back there would be a very very very bad war in the middle east.

Forthe is partially right. The North Americans and Eurupeans did not want to take in Jewish refugees and they in turn went to Isreal where a small group was trying to establish some crazy idea of a Jewish state. So what does the UN do? They screw the original people there and draw up a state with super imposed borders and call it Isreal. The west in general is really to blame. The same way it is to blame for the Kurdish problem, Serbia, and other countries where the UN has decided to play country maker.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » June 22, 2004, 10:36 am

out of curiosity what is the breakup between % Jews and % Palestinians in Israel?

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 22, 2004, 11:22 am

Kylere wrote:Yeah Israel is a rather shitty ally, on par with the various South Vietnamese governments.

So what is a workable solution?

We can withdraw all support, which means they could handle themselves in the initial war but within 20 years they would lose to the next attack.

We could make them a client state, but of course that would involve having to nuke someone

We could continue as thigns are with everyone in the middle east pissed at us.

None of the choices are great, so how do we fix the mistakes made by every US administration with regards to Israel since their formation?

Come down hard on both sides. Enforce international law with regards to borders and settlements. If Israel doesn't accept this then economically isolate them the same way we isolated South Africa, I'm not singling Israel out here but Palestine is already in economic ruin and has no military force to contend with. Once both sides concede put an overwelming military force in place to enforce it at least initially.

Too many extremists on both sides for this to ever be resolved outside of genocide unless they are forced to settle it.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 22, 2004, 11:26 am

Arilain, blaming the entire west for the mistake of England is rough.

Israel according to them has 16% of the population being Moslems, and one quarter of the population uder the age of 15 are Muslem. The annual growth rate of the Muslem population has been 2.4 times higher than the Jewish population in recent years.

The CIA reports that as of July 2002 the population was 6,199,008, and the ethnic and religious breakdown is as follows
Ethnic groups:
Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%)
Non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)

Religions:
Jewish 80.1%
Muslim 14.6% (mostly Sunni Muslim)
Christian 2.1%, other 3.2% (1996 est.)

So what we are really talking about is relocating 5 million jewish people or 2 million Arab people. Maybe we should offer the Palestinians southern Iraq LOL.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 22, 2004, 11:26 am

Arilain wrote:The worst mistake that we can make is to leave Isreal alone. Those guys show incredible restraint and are still pretty damn ruthless. if it were not for us holding them back there would be a very very very bad war in the middle east.

Forthe is partially right. The North Americans and Eurupeans did not want to take in Jewish refugees and they in turn went to Isreal where a small group was trying to establish some crazy idea of a Jewish state. So what does the UN do? They screw the original people there and draw up a state with super imposed borders and call it Isreal. The west in general is really to blame. The same way it is to blame for the Kurdish problem, Serbia, and other countries where the UN has decided to play country maker.

Britain had already made promises to both sides of this and reneged on several promises also. Britain used the UN to wash its hands of the mess. The UN did screw the arabs but it inherited the mess.

The Kurdish problem wasn't the UN, it was Britain.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 22, 2004, 11:34 am

Kylere wrote:Arilain, blaming the entire west for the mistake of England is rough.

Israel according to them has 16% of the population being Moslems, and one quarter of the population uder the age of 15 are Muslem. The annual growth rate of the Muslem population has been 2.4 times higher than the Jewish population in recent years.

The CIA reports that as of July 2002 the population was 6,199,008, and the ethnic and religious breakdown is as follows
Ethnic groups:
Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%)
Non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)

Religions:
Jewish 80.1%
Muslim 14.6% (mostly Sunni Muslim)
Christian 2.1%, other 3.2% (1996 est.)

So what we are really talking about is relocating 5 million jewish people or 2 million Arab people. Maybe we should offer the Palestinians southern Iraq LOL.

Right wing nutcases in Israel want to expel all arabs (including arab citizens) due to the high arab birth rate. Arabs will be the majority in a couple of generations. One of the cabinet ministers Sharon just booted was a proponent of this.

Arilain · Post by **Arilain** » June 22, 2004, 11:37 am

Yeah the UK did have it's way in redrawing the map of the world I agree. My point was that if the other western powers had challenged them they might have backed off. No one did so we all share some of the blame.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 22, 2004, 11:42 am

Nah, Britain is at fault, trying to rewrite history on the issue is like someone 50 years from now trying to say it was Englands fault that they did not stop the US from entering Iraq.

Maybe it is time to let Israel know that they need to get their shit together, stop abusing their palestinian minority, stop building their new Iron Curtains, and shut the fuck up, or we announce that they no longer have our support.

DOH I just realized that this thread is going to get someone to call me an antisemite. LOL, let me clarify that I respect Judaism as much as I respect Christianity, Islam, or Hinduism, and maybe a little less than Buddhism. This is purely a secular debate and has nothing to do with the religions involved, merely the facts of the matter, not what the facts pray to.

Arilain · Post by **Arilain** » June 22, 2004, 11:53 am

You know sadly it is a catch 22 of sorts. If we withdraw suport and influence from Isreal, they will do whatever they want and start a major war. If we keep political pressure on them to reform the Arabs hate us for supporting a repressive regime.

I don''t think this thread is about anti-semitism at all. It's about a repressive governement that does questionable things to promote "security."

I just wish that we could do two things. One - find an alternative fuel so the middle east can hold us by the balls, and Second - Find a way to withdraw support from Isreal and avoid another world war.

What would you do?

I would invest heavily into fuel alternatives and make them affordable for the average joe on the street.
Hit Isreal with enough sanctions to force them to give up their nuclear weapons and start to humanly deal with the palestinian issue.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » June 22, 2004, 12:07 pm

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040628fa_fact

the original article is available.

Krurk · Post by **Krurk** » June 22, 2004, 12:29 pm

Here's a nice little hypothetical for you.

Let's assume the United States cuts Israel loose and washes its hands of the situation. Israel, feeling unrestrained decides it is time to do a little spring cleaning along its borders and goes after Syria. With a minimal and poorly trained military, Syria falls but this manages to light a firecracker under the collective ass of all Arab governments. Egypt and Jordan are forced by their citizens to revoke peace treaties and prepare to send the Zionists into the sea, but they know that they can't do this on their own, and that if they tried Israel would start making their capitals glow in the dark.

Enter Iran and Pakistan.

With missile technology purchased from North Korea, these two are able to lob a few dozen low-yield warheads towards Israel, which prompts Israel to strike first. Israel sends its airforce into Iran to target air defense, air bases and launch sites, furthur infuriating the Muslim world. By this point, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq decide they need to act, and offer their small, but American-equipped and trained militaries to the cause.

Israel still feels confident in its ability to withstand offensive actions by these countries because of air superiority and defensive depth, but there is some rumbling to the north.

Turkey, a non-Arab country, but a democracy with a significant Muslim population can not stand by while Israel rampages throughout the region and decides to enter it's large, NATO-trained and Western-equipped military into the fray on the side of their Muslim brothers.

The question is then, would Israel have the balls to attack a Turkish force, thus forcing NATO to come to their aid? Then again, the combined forces of these countries would probally be capable of driving onto Israel and raising hell, meanwhile the United States is busy trying to ship forces to the region in an attempt to dial it down. Keep in mind it took us six months to build up the troop levels used in the prior wars.

I should write a book, that could be an interesting story.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 22, 2004, 12:39 pm

I say we let the Israelis twist in the wind for a couple years. Let them deal with the millions Muslims they've pissed on for 2 generations.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 22, 2004, 1:16 pm

Krurk I think you have the right idea, but carried it way to far, I think if we pulled our support of Israel, the openly Islamic hating Russian government would welcome a peaceful chance to build a war water port right in the Med.

Don't think for a second the Russian state does not want the same things the Soviet state wanted.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » June 22, 2004, 3:04 pm

Ehud Barak, the former Israeli Prime Minister, who supported the Bush Administration’s invasion of Iraq, took it upon himself at this point to privately warn Vice-President Dick Cheney that America had lost in Iraq; according to an American close to Barak, he said that Israel “had learned that there’s no way to win an occupation.” The only issue, Barak told Cheney, “was choosing the size of your humiliation.” Cheney did not respond to Barak’s assessment. (Cheney’s office declined to comment.)

I read the article (i'm halfway through) as not so much Israel meddling in our affairs as they think we have botched the situation in Iraq, strengthened Iran, and are acting in their own best interest.

i usually find Israel's actions to be extreme, so i'm not particularly surprised by this. it definitely is an interesting article to give a little more depth to the complexity of Iraq.

Krurk · Post by **Krurk** » June 22, 2004, 3:07 pm

Not disputing your idea, but for the Ruskies to get to the med they would have to go through Turkey and Greece, both NATO members. Additionally, in its weakened state the Russians would be hard-pressed to maintain the logistics necessary for such a penetration. With its inability to sufficiently project forces into that area, the Soviets would be better off negotiating with nations such as Syria and Iran to form an alliance against Israel.

Ofcourse, the United States would shut off food exports to the Russians, so that idea may backfire unless they manage to locate another supplier.

Just for clarification

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 22, 2004, 9:48 pm

Sigh second time I have had to type this, silly reload, so i may make it brief but I should have typed more earlier.

I know there is no land connection, sigh, my name is not Xzion.

I have been reading for weeks about the issues related to the US support of Israel, since it really is a lynch pin issue of American/Islamic issues. The Russians would greatly benefit by spending the money to build Israel as a willing ally. Both would gain markets for materiels and finished goods, it is an excellent area to forward project without having to pass through the straights, and Russia is currently suppressing those with Islamic beliefs to the best of its ability anyways. There is a large jewish population in Russia who were oppressed under Soviet rule and are now becoming more vocal and they will back any such move.

The relationship could very well be similiar to America and Japan following WW2 but with the Israelis maintaining their own incredible military edge.

It would be the only alternative I can see to really nasty warfare in tjhe event the US moves Israel from under its military umbrella.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » June 22, 2004, 11:37 pm

Well fuck it then, let the Russions have the 5 million a day bill we currently pump into that backstabbing shithole. Let the European Union eat that shit sandwich for a while, since they made it in the first place by playing hot potato with the Jewish poplace after WW2.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 23, 2004, 7:26 am

Separately, a survey of Israel's Jews has shown a majority wants the government to encourage the country's Arab citizens to leave.

Ethnic Arabs make up a fifth of the population in the predominantly Jewish state.

Almost 64% of the people polled by Haifa University for the Maariv newspaper said they would support the government if it tried to resettle Israel's Arabs abroad.

A further 55% said the Israeli Arabs posed a security risk and about 45% said they should not be allowed to elect members of parliament.

US chides Israel settler inaction

Apartheid?

I'm a bit shocked. I realized Israel had a large faction of right wing nutcases but I thought the general population was sensible.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 23, 2004, 7:27 am

Kylere wrote:So what we are really talking about is relocating 5 million jewish people or 2 million Arab people. Maybe we should offer the Palestinians southern Iraq LOL.

There are 1+ million arab Israelis (citizens - the 20% you mentioned). There are 3.5+ million arabs in the west bank + gaza strip.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 23, 2004, 10:05 am

What is really funny about this is that the liberals on this board should be fucking ashamed of themselves, if the US started to build a wall in Iraq in the middle of Baghdad to seperate religious groups, you all would be going apeshit, where is the righteous indignation against the entirely intolerable actions of the Israeli government.

They are the most fascist and totalitarian government by their actions that exist in the middle east.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » June 23, 2004, 10:10 am

Kylere wrote:What is really funny about this is that the liberals on this board should be fucking ashamed of themselves, if the US started to build a wall in Iraq in the middle of Baghdad to seperate religious groups, you all would be going apeshit, where is the righteous indignation against the entirely intolerable actions of the Israeli government.

They are the most fascist and totalitarian government by their actions that exist in the middle east.

Errrrm see my posts in re that issue 2 months ago...

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 23, 2004, 10:15 am

What is really funny about this is that the liberals on this board should be fucking ashamed of themselves, if the US started to build a wall in Iraq in the middle of Baghdad to seperate religious groups, you all would be going apeshit, where is the righteous indignation against the entirely intolerable actions of the Israeli government.

heh I've ranted about that wall before.. do believe I even linked a few maps showing how it divided up Palestinian villages in two etc.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » June 23, 2004, 10:20 am

where is the righteous indignation against the entirely intolerable actions of the Israeli government

A lot of "us liberals" have posted at length criticising the actions of the Israeli government. Have a browse a few pages back, Johnny-come-lately.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 23, 2004, 10:28 am

So it is okay to stop talking about it?

Hell the conservatives still harp on the BJ
The Liberals still harp on the election

But thousands of human beings being displaced in an organized campaign that borders on intent of genocide and we can forget it?

Hell if the US was doing it, Kyoukan would be leading the marches of protest, and all of you would be in DC with her protesting. CONSISTANCY is not a conservative trait, it is a trait of those who have solid beliefs.

Krurk · Post by **Krurk** » June 23, 2004, 10:39 am

Kind of off topic but maybe this will have some bearing on where this conversation is going.

Looking back at the last election, it is crucial for Bush to reach out to as many target demographics as possible in order to ensure he can get re-elected. One of those target demographics is Jewish voters who traditionally vote Democrat, in particular the last election where Al Gore had a Jewish veep. As a result of that, the Arab vote swung Republican largely because of the selection of Lieberman as veep. By supporting the Israeli government, Bush is hoping to woo the votes of Jewish groups within the United States, but in doing so he has angered the Arab voters, who actually out-number Jewish citizens in the US now. However, if anyone here studies the internal politics and society of Israel, they will be aware of a massive identity crisis within the state that at times involves American Jews when some Ultra-Orthodox nutcase wants to redefine what being Jewish means, often resulting in saying that only those who live in Israel and follow a strict interpretation qualify. That in turn angers American Jews, who have been crucial in getting those large grants approved by our government and sending private funds and occasionally people to Israel.

As it has been mentioned in here, give Israel about 30 or 40 years at their current pace and the Israeli-Arabs will take over. If before then, the government decides to relocate them, the United States reaction will depend largely on the administration, but Europe's reaction will likely be pretty devastating since the EU is their largest trading partner.

If someone wants to argue numbers, I'll get them.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » June 23, 2004, 10:42 am

Kylere wrote:So it is okay to stop talking about it?

Hell the conservatives still harp on the BJ
The Liberals still harp on the election

But thousands of human beings being displaced in an organized campaign that borders on intent of genocide and we can forget it?

Hell if the US was doing it, Kyoukan would be leading the marches of protest, and all of you would be in DC with her protesting. CONSISTANCY is not a conservative trait, it is a trait of those who have solid beliefs.

Sorry i forget silence = consent to you conservatives...

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 23, 2004, 10:50 am

Arborealus wrote:
Kylere wrote:So it is okay to stop talking about it?

Hell the conservatives still harp on the BJ
The Liberals still harp on the election

But thousands of human beings being displaced in an organized campaign that borders on intent of genocide and we can forget it?

Hell if the US was doing it, Kyoukan would be leading the marches of protest, and all of you would be in DC with her protesting. CONSISTANCY is not a conservative trait, it is a trait of those who have solid beliefs.
Sorry i forget silence = consent to you conservatives...

Considering I have already voted Libertarian this year, I cannot see myself identified as conservative anymore. Equating silence with consent is not a conservative trait anymore than a liberal one, but ignoring "old news" to bitch about "new news" means the old stuff is less important?

Hell if this is true, then in 6 months people will not be bitching about Iraq? Where is the logic in that? The problem is the majority of liberal white posters here, do not really care about what happens to the Arabs in Israel, they care about attacking the US. The majority of the conservatives do not care, because they are too busy defending the US.

How very European of you.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » June 23, 2004, 11:01 am

Kylere wrote:
Arborealus wrote:
Kylere wrote:So it is okay to stop talking about it?

Hell the conservatives still harp on the BJ
The Liberals still harp on the election

But thousands of human beings being displaced in an organized campaign that borders on intent of genocide and we can forget it?

Hell if the US was doing it, Kyoukan would be leading the marches of protest, and all of you would be in DC with her protesting. CONSISTANCY is not a conservative trait, it is a trait of those who have solid beliefs.
Sorry i forget silence = consent to you conservatives...
Considering I have already voted Libertarian this year, I cannot see myself identified as conservative anymore. Equating silence with consent is not a conservative trait anymore than a liberal one, but ignoring "old news" to bitch about "new news" means the old stuff is less important?

Hell if this is true, then in 6 months people will not be bitching about Iraq? Where is the logic in that? The problem is the majority of liberal white posters here, do not really care about what happens to the Arabs in Israel, they care about attacking the US. The majority of the conservatives do not care, because they are too busy defending the US.

How very European of you.

Liberatarian is conservative...did you not know that?

I am hardly ignoring "old news"...I have already addressed my opposition to this policy of israel on the board as well as in emails to my representative and senator...I have continued to address this policy at every opportunity including this one...

The problem is you equate effective opposition to something as making the most noise...Which is not the case...

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 23, 2004, 11:10 am

Arborealus wrote:
Kylere wrote:
Arborealus wrote: Liberatarian is conservative...did you not know that?

I am hardly ignoring "old news"...I have already addressed my opposition to this policy of israel on the board as well as in emails to my representative and senator...I have continued to address this policy at every opportunity including this one...

The problem is you equate effective opposition to something as making the most noise...Which is not the case...

Umm libertarian is pro choice, pro legalization, anti military, anti taxation, and seriously anti big brother, how in the hell is that conservative? You need to study something BEFORE you comment on it. The only thing conservative about the libertarian party is that they support no gun laws.

Without making noise things remain unchanged.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 23, 2004, 11:26 am

Arborealus wrote:Liberatarian is conservative...did you not know that?

Isn't Liberatarian like socially liberal and fiscally conservative?

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » June 23, 2004, 11:27 am

So having all stated our opinions on Israel ad infinitum on other threads the fact that we haven't all jumped on here and screamed "OMGOMG" is some kind of crime?
Israel in fucking with Arabs Shocker. Pictures at 11.
I'd comment more fully if (a) it was at all surprising and (b) I wasn't so busy.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » June 23, 2004, 11:51 am

Kylere wrote:
Arborealus wrote:
Kylere wrote:
Arborealus wrote: Liberatarian is conservative...did you not know that?

I am hardly ignoring "old news"...I have already addressed my opposition to this policy of israel on the board as well as in emails to my representative and senator...I have continued to address this policy at every opportunity including this one...

The problem is you equate effective opposition to something as making the most noise...Which is not the case...
Umm libertarian is pro choice, pro legalization, anti military, anti taxation, and seriously anti big brother, how in the hell is that conservative? You need to study something BEFORE you comment on it. The only thing conservative about the libertarian party is that they support no gun laws.

Without making noise things remain unchanged.

Ok well you are equating fundamentalist with conservative...which it isn't...all things conservative are not contemporary republican fundies...in point of fact they are less conservative (in the original political sense of the term) than Liberatarians...Republicans have arguably given conservative a bad name...Thanks I have studied philosophy and political philosophy extensively...

...Perhaps you should?

Re: Without making noise things remain unchanged...

That is pure nonsense...votes and discussion need not be noisy to be effective...

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 23, 2004, 11:58 am

Kylere wrote:The problem is the majority of liberal white posters here, do not really care about what happens to the Arabs in Israel, they care about attacking the US.

I call bullshit on this. If the US ever does the right thing in Israel\Palestine there will be a fucking shitload of praise coming your way.

The real problem is US citizens do not know what is really going on, the media doesn't show you. And it isn't just in the occupied territories. Non-Jewish Israelis are 2nd class citizens, that includes the christians (to a lesser extent than the muslims). Do a bit of research and you will be floored.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » June 23, 2004, 12:43 pm

no amount of me screaming on this message board is going to keep Israel from not building that wall.

i am pretty upset that our President has more or less given Sharon 'carte blanche' to do whatever is necessary to the Palestinians to secure his agenda.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 23, 2004, 1:30 pm

Hell if this is true, then in 6 months people will not be bitching about Iraq? Where is the logic in that? The problem is the majority of liberal white posters here, do not really care about what happens to the Arabs in Israel, they care about attacking the US. The majority of the conservatives do not care, because they are too busy defending the US.

Sorry, the fact that some of us don't post every day like raving lunatics about something (hi Midnyte!) doesn't mean it isn't important to us. I am very much against the wall being built, I have argued against it many times.. and also argued for Sharon being a war criminal several times here. You should know, you were involved in several of those arguments. Has nothing to do with attacking the US except for the fact that Bush supports Israel no matter what they do.

How very European of you.

Thank you, I take that as a big compliment

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 23, 2004, 1:43 pm

Libertarians have differences of opinion with each other justr as dems and republicans and greens do, but in the end they are pro personal responsibility and anti governmental controls.

This means they believe some of the things the liberals do and some of the things the conservatives do, but in the end, they are decidedly not conservative by any logical definition of the term and no one other than an idiot would ever define a prochoice organization as conservative. Unless you define conservative as holding the values of 1974 or later forever.

Guess what, the screaming in hear day in and day out has not affected the war at all, the screaming on this board about anything has had no effect on anything. But you all still do it if there is a chance to poke at the USA.

What part of hypocrite is not clear, if you bitch about the violations of country a on a daily basis, while saying it is okay to move on when another country is prepping genocide then you are not a good human being.