French Ban on Religious Symbols in Schools

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Lalanae
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French Ban on Religious Symbols in Schools

Post by Lalanae »

I find this a bit disconcerting, but it's interesting that almost 1/2 of French Muslim women support the ban (see 2nd link).

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... _scarves_5

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/02 ... index.html
PARIS - France's lower house of parliament on Tuesday voted overwhelmingly to ban students from wearing Islamic head scarves and other religious apparel in public schools.

The measure, which would outlaw conspicuous religious clothing and symbols in classrooms, was approved 494-36. It goes to the Senate, where little opposition was expected, in early March.

The measure was expected to take effect in September.

The bill stipulates that "in schools, junior high schools and high schools, signs and dress that conspicuously show the religious affiliation of students are forbidden." It would not apply to students in private schools or to French schools in other countries.

Sanctions for refusing to remove conspicuous religious signs and clothing would range from a warning to temporary suspension from school to expulsion.

The bill got far more than the 288 votes in the 577-seat National Assembly that were needed to pass — a measure of its wide popularity within France, demonstrated in repeated public opinion polls.

French leaders hope a law will quell the debate over head scarves that has divided France since 1989, when two young girls were expelled from their school in Creil, outside Paris, for wearing head scarves. Scores more have been expelled since then.

The government argues that a law is needed to protect France's secular traditions and to diminish rising Islamic fundamentalism. The ban would apply to Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses as well as the head scarf.

"This law is for us indispensable," said Martine David, a Socialist lawmaker. Teachers "need a clear judicial framework."

Parliament's majority party — the Union for a Popular Movement — agreed Thursday to a last-minute amendment by the Socialists that calls for an evaluation of the law a year after it takes effect.

Lawmakers want the option of being able to alter its language from "conspicuous" to "visible" if necessary in order to eliminate vagueness or ambiguity.

The governing UMP party also added an amendment to ensure that mediation takes place before any sanctions are imposed — another Socialist suggestion.
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Post by kyoukan »

I would support this just on the grounds that fundamentalist islam uses the head scarf as a tool to subjugate women. There really is no other purpose for it and it certainly isn't a legitimate religious symbol. School is no place tp parade around in religious attire anyway. If it's so important, then pay to send your kid to an islamic fundie private school.

Banning the wearing of yamulkas and "large christian crosses" is largely pointless anyway since jews generally don't, and aren't required to wear their yamulkas outside of temple and the dinner table (I think) and I don't see many kids with foot long or larger wooden crosses hanging from them very often.
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Post by Kelshara »

I *think* the stricter Jewish groups wear their small hat-thingies outside as well, although it has been a very long time since I had to study religion..

Also, they probably included the crosses etc so that Muslims could not complain that it only targeted them, aka making it even for all religions.
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Post by Ennia »

You can still wear a cross on a chain on your neck beneath your clothes, can't really hide the headwear though.

Personally I don't have anything against any type of religious clothing at school as long as it doesn't cover the face, so yarmulkas, turbans would be ok, no veils over the face though.
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Post by Dregor Thule »

Does this apply to turbans as well? Tattoos with religious significance?
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Post by Sirensa »

Ennia wrote:You can still wear a cross on a chain on your neck beneath your clothes, can't really hide the headwear though.

Personally I don't have anything against any type of religious clothing at school as long as it doesn't cover the face, so yarmulkas, turbans would be ok, no veils over the face though.
The problem with that, at least if this were in the U.S., is that a lot of schools disallow hats of any kind simply as part of their dress code regulations. I personally don't think students should be wearing hats in school, but where would you draw the line? Hats for religious reasons are ok? Turbans aren't hats? Ok then what about gang-style kerchiefs? Easier just to say no headgear in school. The less distractions from the learning process the better IMO.
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Post by Arborealus »

I wouldn't be at all comofortable with this decision. I guess I might be more ok with mandating a uniform.

But I really worry about a government targetting one religion.
Last edited by Arborealus on February 10, 2004, 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ennia »

very true, didn't think of that (that's regarding Sirensa's post)
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Post by Dregor Thule »

Well, they aren't trying to target one religion, they're just a very secular country.
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Post by Lalanae »

France can do whatever they please, but I think it's stupid for them to pass this ban right now. It's just going to make them more of a target to fundamentalist Muslims.

I don't believe in the supression of religious expression, whether I agree with the religion or symbol or not. I don't believe that it distracts from classroom activities either. They should be teaching tolerance of other cultural and religious expressions. I love France, but they really disappointed me on this one. Decisions like this should be left up to the individual.
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Post by Arborealus »

Dregor Thule wrote:Well, they aren't trying to target one religion, they're just a very secular country.
The government argues that a law is needed to protect France's secular traditions and to diminish rising Islamic fundamentalism.
Diminishing rising Islamic fundamentalism...strikes me as trying to target one religion...And I didn't see anything about kids with Yarmulkas being expelled...

Course I know dick about religion...perhaps the Yarmulka would never be worn at school anyway...*shrug*
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Post by kyoukan »

well you have to understand how culturally paranoid france it. I used to think it was just french canadians who were irrational about protecting their culture, but france is just as bad. they are very nationalistic and view just about every other culutre in the world as a threat to theirs.

france has a huge population of muslims, mostly from countries that were former french colonies and still part of the france "commonwealth." the last few census conducted in france showed that the muslims are outbreeding the francophones by something like 3 to 1. it probably won't even be a century until muslims are the dominant population and culture in that part of europe.
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Post by Dregor Thule »

Arborealus wrote:
Dregor Thule wrote:Well, they aren't trying to target one religion, they're just a very secular country.
The government argues that a law is needed to protect France's secular traditions and to diminish rising Islamic fundamentalism.
Diminishing rising Islamic fundamentalism...strikes me as trying to target one religion...And I didn't see anything about kids with Yarmulkas being expelled...

Course I know dick about religion...perhaps the Yarmulka would never be worn at school anyway...*shrug*
I'm not defending it here, but no, that doesn't prove that they're targetting only Islam. That's just this instance. You'll notice you also quoted "France's secular traditions". It's a big thing for them, and it's nowhere near a new thing.
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Post by Arborealus »

Yeah I forget how tightly they conrol the language as well...Ah well just prefer my culture a bit more fluid and adaptive...:)
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Post by Kelshara »

That is because you live in a country with no history/culture to protect :)
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Post by Arborealus »

Kelshara wrote:That is because you live in a country with no history/culture to protect :)
Yeah the blues, jazz, rock n roll, zydeco, rap...no culture at all...funny how much our musical forms are immulated for an uncultured folk...then there's a very decent literary tradition, film and art...
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Post by Sionistic »

what country is that again
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Post by Chmee »

Arborealus wrote:
Kelshara wrote:That is because you live in a country with no history/culture to protect :)
Yeah the blues, jazz, rock n roll, zydeco, rap...no culture at all...funny how much our musical forms are immulated for an uncultured folk...then there's a very decent literary tradition, film and art...
Have to agree with Arbor here. Saying the U.S. has no history/culture is ludicrous. Granted, our history as a nation is not as long as some otheres. But our culture also draws on the influences of the various people who came here to live. Also we have arguably been the most influential exporter of culture for probably close to the last 50 years.
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Post by Kelshara »

You do realize I posted that as a small jab, right?
Also we have arguably been the most influential exporter of culture for probably close to the last 50 years.
And that is exactly why other countries work on protecting their own culture.. although I wouldn't really call Hollywood movies for culture but that's just me.
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Post by Arborealus »

Kelshara wrote:You do realize I posted that as a small jab, right?
And you expect not to be jabbed back?
Kelshara wrote: I wouldn't really call Hollywood movies for culture but that's just me.
Yeah Orson Wells, John Houston, Martin Scorsese, FF Copolla...those guys suck...:)
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Post by Kelshara »

No I actually expected more rabid replies, I was a bit disappointed :(

That said, yeah some Hollywood movies can definitely be labeled as culture. But most of it is just trash.
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Post by Ennia »

One man's thrash is another man's treasure :D

European movies are usually way to serious, you need a degree in psychology to follow the dialog sometimes
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Post by Sueven »

Most entertainment is trash period. In the '60's, most music was trash, and in the '70s, and '80s, and '90s, and now. Same with movies. Most American movies are trash. Most European movies are trash. Most Japanese movies are trash. That's the way it is and the way it will continue to be for a very long time. Christ.
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Post by Kelshara »

Hence why I prefere a good book!
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Post by masteen »

Lalanae wrote:Decisions like this should be left up to the individual.
Bullshit. People are stupid.
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Post by kyoukan »

A Norweigan telling an American they have no culture... there's a new one. Your country's last cultural contribution to the world was rape and metal hats with cow horns glued to them. I lift my leg and fart and I have contributed more culturally than the enture country of Norway has since the 1300s.
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Post by Chmee »

Attempts to keep out other cultural influences often haven't been that successful, even when tried by totalitarian regimes. Also most current cultures have developed through many cultural interactions and influences over their history. Trying to pick a snapshot of that culture and say this is "the" culture for a particular nation/region/whatever and try to isolate it from influences going forward strikes me as probably both unhealthy for the culture, and ultimately futile.

I think saying most entertainment is trash is putting it too harshly (although it depends on your definition of trash). I think it is safe to say that a lot of entertainment that is out there won't weather the test of time. Only a small subset typically finds a lasting appeal. That doesn't mean the rest is worthless though. A lot of it still brings enjoyment to a lot of people. A particular piece of entertainment also doesn't have the same value for all people. When people experience art/entertainment/culture they interpret its meaning for themselves, and that meaning can vary wildly from individual to individual.

A while back Charles Paul Freund wrote a fascinating article for reason, available here - http://www.reason.com/0203/fe.cf.in.shtml In it he talks about how influences/movements have persisted often in the face of strong attempts to supress them. He goes into a lot more than that as well. His historical examples from Russian Stilyagi to Algerian Rai singers to Kazakhstanian Tolkienists are very interesting. For anyone interested in popular culture I strongly recommend it, its a very good read.
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Post by Kelshara »

kyoukan wrote:A Norweigan telling an American they have no culture... there's a new one. Your country's last cultural contribution to the world was rape and metal hats with cow horns glued to them. I lift my leg and fart and I have contributed more culturally than the enture country of Norway has since the 1300s.
Poor poor Kyou, you really try hard to post crap don't you?

Quick correction of your misconceptions:
- Vikings did not have horned helmets. Sorry to disappoint your fantasies about using one as a two-headed dildo to finally release some of your built up sexual tenstion.
- No idea why you talk about vikings in one sentence then the 1300 in the next. Two completely different eras there.

Of course, I am just too stupid to understand what a super-intellectual like yourself really meant. There, I saved you the hassle of posting a reply :)

I think Pilsbury, Metanis and Cart need to get together and give Kyou the lovin' s/he really needs.
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Post by Sueven »

Hence why I prefere a good book!
Most books are trash too. Ever read Tom Clancy?

Chmee: Yeah, you're right about the value of pop culture. The point I was trying to make is pretty much exactly what you said: Certain pieces of entertainment, whether movies music books or whatever, are very well done. That range includes both Led Zeppelin IV and OK Computer. For some reason, people get irrationally angry that not all forms of entertainment measure up to these standards. Hollywood is not defined by XXX and 2 Fast, 2 Furious and the Wedding Planner. Hollywood is defined by American Beauty and Braveheart and the Lord of the Rings.

It's like the creepy subset of nerds who are just jizzing themselves with delight over anything Japanese. There are certainly very worthwhile things that come out of Japan, from Yojimbo to sushi, but i'm amazed at how many people can easily spend hours vacantly staring at Pikachu prancing around a screen, but then refuse to listen to Radiohead, or refuse to watch American History X, or otherwise refuse to pay attention to anything of value that has come out of American pop culture.

Basically, all I'm saying is that issuing a blanket dismissal of American-- or any nation's-- pop culture makes you every bit as ignorant as the hordes of people who went to see You Got Served last weekend.

Edit: This isn't intended to be an attack on anyone in particular. Just a general statement.

Additional edit: Holy fucking shit, I really would have thought that people would have given up making pseudoviolent references to Kyou's sexuality years ago.
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Post by kyoukan »

people always fall back on the old rape standby when they run out of anything of value to say. well in this case kelsh has 952 posts worth of nothing of value to say until he went over it, but some people can withstand it for longer than others. being from norway, sexual violence is in his genetic structure.

it's cute watching him verbally flail his arms like a retard though!
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Post by Sylvus »

The French may not be cool with religion, but at least they're still cool with necrophilia!
"It's like these guys take pride in being ignorant." - Barack Obama

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Post by Badabidi »

Why the hell didn't you stay in Norway and finish your education over there or whatever the hell you're doing??? It'd obviously overkill whatever feeble crap is offered over here in the US :roll:
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Post by Kelshara »

To rape the women, pilage what little loot there is here and to burn of course. Duh?
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