So, who do you h8?

Dups. · Post by **Dups.** » January 14, 2004, 3:02 pm

Which player do you hate and why?

I hate Jeremy Roenick from the NHL. He is so cocky and in front of the cameras as well he will shoot off his mouth. He had a bust lip on T.V last night and was pissed. I enjoyed that

I also dislike Daniel Alfredson from the NHL because he looks like a clown with his hair bursting out of his helmet. And for the cheap hit from behind on Tucker 2 years ago which caused a goal for Ottawa right after.

I hate Jagr from the NHL because of his stupid salute he used to do after every goal. I love seeing him do so shitty this year. Seems he isn't as good if he isn't surrounded by great players.

So... who do you h8?

Narmgarf · Post by **Narmgarf** » January 14, 2004, 3:51 pm

Brett Hull...can't stand'em. Great goal scorer, but you can't tell me that back in minor hockey and stuff he didn't get constantly rocked for "being on the suck".

Not a fan of Modano either...still remember a few years back when he got knocked out or something...was being brought out of the rink on a stretcher when they dropped the stretcher. Just seeing the pissed off/helpless look on his face (cause he was strapped in) was hilarious.

Gary Suter - one of the best cheap shot artists I've ever seen. The hit on Kariya and he did the same thing on Gretzky. Lot of talent, but apparently he's a shithead.

Ulf Samuelsson - for being a large contributer to the early end of Cam Neely's career

I could probably add more, but that's enough for now

Narmgarf

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 14, 2004, 3:55 pm

i hate that spazhole Roger Clemens

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » January 14, 2004, 4:03 pm

kobe bryant

heh, k

he is a loudmouthed asshole that rather talk than play. he never owns up to anything being his fault, its alway shaq or someone that messes up, not him. a real arrogant piece of shit that i hate to even watch (though i hate all nba) and this current rape thing really cracks me up.

Dups. · Post by **Dups.** » January 14, 2004, 5:13 pm

Zamtuk... You have to tell us what Kobe Bryant did to you as well...

Did he touch your pipi without your concent?

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » January 14, 2004, 5:36 pm

Sapp, and I doubt any explanation is needed.

Keyshawn Johnson and eeryone like him, who do it more with their mouths than actually playing the game.

Shaq because.. well I never liked him, not sure why.

LeBron James because.. I live near Cleveland and god damn I am sick of hearing about him.

Iedok65 · Post by **Iedok65** » January 14, 2004, 6:19 pm

every god damn player from ARIZONA CARDINALS!

Josh McCown---QB !! DIE!!!

Go VIkings!!1!

Post by **Xouqoa** » January 14, 2004, 6:52 pm

Brett Hull is one of the most entertaining (and truth speaking) figures in the NHL. How could you hate him? =)

Post by **Sylvus** » January 14, 2004, 7:01 pm

Eh, I probably would have said I hated both Hull and Chelios before they came to the Wings. Now I think they're great guys. =)

I hate Barry Bonds. I don't even know why, I just do.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » January 14, 2004, 7:38 pm

I hate Terrell Owens, Vlade Divac, Chris Webber, Mike Piazza, Roger Clemens, George Steinbrenner, Dan Snyder, Mike Dunleavy and Larry Johnson.

Runcade · Post by **Runcade** » January 14, 2004, 8:03 pm

i hate the corner from the packers with the long ass hair out the back. he is one of the cockiest players i have ever seen. cant wait till he intercepts a ball and gets pulled down by his hair.

Momopi · Post by **Momopi** » January 14, 2004, 9:22 pm

Why would anyone hate roger clemens? He would still be retired if the Yankees actually cared one lick about Petitte or however you spell his name heh. Clemens, Nolan Ryan and Pete Rose are my all time favs, I got nothing but love for them.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » January 14, 2004, 9:38 pm

Really? Man, I can't stand any of those players. Pete Rose for obvious reasons, Nolan Ryan because he's among the most overrated players in history, and Roger Clemens for just being a son of a bitch. Nolan Ryan's at least a little better, because he always seemed like a genial guy.

Post by **Xouqoa** » January 14, 2004, 11:52 pm

Runcade wrote:i hate the corner from the packers with the long ass hair out the back. he is one of the cockiest players i have ever seen. cant wait till he intercepts a ball and gets pulled down by his hair.

There's two of them. =p(Mike McKenzie and Al Harris) I've never really seen them being any more cocky than most players, though.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » January 15, 2004, 12:05 am

McKenzie is pretty cocky. He mouths off a lot. He's a pretty good corner, though.

I don't know what Harris did this year (besides against the Seahawks). When he was with the Eagles last year, he was good for a major penalty or two per game. Usually unsportsmanlike conduct or a late hit or something.

Kalifen · Post by **Kalifen** » January 15, 2004, 1:42 am

Well anyone using illegal drugs to win is a looser and I hate them all I think...

Canoe · Post by **Canoe** » January 15, 2004, 2:16 am

Momopi wrote:Why would anyone hate roger clemens? He would still be retired if the Yankees actually cared one lick about Petitte or however you spell his name heh. Clemens, Nolan Ryan and Pete Rose are my all time favs, I got nothing but love for them.

If the yankees cared a lick about Pettitte? What exactly do you mean here? The yankees offered pettitte 7-8 Million MORE than Houston did... and he still turned them down to go to Texas... I'd say that's caring, but pettitte didn't want to come back...

As for clemens... I'm still undecided on how I feel... very torn on the matter.

As far as players I hate - Anyone who opens their mouth more than they should....

Barry Bonds, Ken Griffey Jr, Deion Sanders, Warren Sapp, etc, etc...

Not saying they aren't (or weren't) tremoundous athletes - just couldn't and can't stand the fact that they care more about them being centers of attention than playing the game (altho i'll have to admit barry seems to have mellowed a lot, but the grudge from the past 2 years is too much).

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » January 15, 2004, 3:14 am

I will die a happy man if Barry Bonds never wins a championship.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » January 15, 2004, 6:03 am

Roger Clemens - You do not pull that shit like he did against Piazza a ways back, Clemens is a sick fuck

Barry Bonds - He cares not about the game, only his stats and his private area in the locker room

Ken Griffey Jr - See above
Kevin Brown - See above
Gary Sheffield - See above

For that kind of cash, they had better live and fucking breathe baseball--signing autographs and smiling at every fucking snapshot; worshipping each goddamn second they have on the field.

Momopi · Post by **Momopi** » January 15, 2004, 10:45 am

"If the yankees cared a lick about Pettitte? What exactly do you mean here? The yankees offered pettitte 7-8 Million MORE than Houston did... and he still turned them down to go to Texas... I'd say that's caring, but pettitte didn't want to come back... "

Think about the timing of all this, during the time the Yankees had to sign him they just putzed around then leaked out he had elbow problems. They made no aggressive attempts to sign him and only after the Astros put down the offer sheet to him, did the Yankees toss the money to him. It was more, yes but they honestly made no effort when it came down to it. Pettitte said he would have liked to stay but why should he stay when the Yanks were giving money to every free agent out there but him?(before they offered him a contract)

"Really? Man, I can't stand any of those players. Pete Rose for obvious reasons, Nolan Ryan because he's among the most overrated players in history, and Roger Clemens for just being a son of a bitch. Nolan Ryan's at least a little better, because he always seemed like a genial guy."

Let me make it a little more clear by my choices of favs. Pete Rose as a player was one of the most breathtaking things you could have ever seen. This guy was pure guts and all winner. Turning singles into doubles like it was nobody's business, he played the game with more intensity than anyone in the history of baseball and that I know for a fact will never be duplicated either. To say this guy was excitement was a total understatement.

Roger Clemens - This is a guy who has withstood the test of time and has maintained a level of excellence that is so amazing. I know his brand of pitching is disliked by most people, but if you watch him over a period of time you gain an appreciation of what he really is about. If you dig in and hang over the inside of the plate, you can expect to get the bull by the horns each and every time. The inside of the plate is the property of Roger.

Nolan Ryan - You say he is one of the most overrated players in history but what facts do you have to back it up? There is no other pitcher in history who can take the ball day in and day out and have the oppertunity to toss a no-hitter. Not just an oppertunity but a good chance actually. He was just unhittable. If you took a poll of the players in Ryan's time and ask them who they would not want to bat against , it would be Ryan without a doubt. He was the baddest muther that ever took the mound in the history of the game. I feel honored that I got to see him pitch in Anaheim on a number of occasions, and let me tell you it was awesome to see this guy just shove the ball down peoples throats.

Homercles · Post by **Homercles** » January 15, 2004, 12:03 pm

At least one person mentioned my most hated player.

Gary Sheffield. What an absolute egotistical, me first, jack ass. This guy doesnt know the meaning of "team". He also blames racism for everything that happens in his sport. From Sammy Sosa corking his bat to Jose Conseco being a moron. Sheffield claims racism for causing the situation which sheds any negative light on any non-white athlete.

Tom Glaivine would be my other most hated player. Not because he completely dominates my Cinciannti Reds every time he takes the mound, but because he was the Union rep for the players back in the strike year of '96. That association has never left my mind. That Union is so fucking unbelievable overpowered. If there is one Union that needs to be busted, its the Baseball Players Union. I will forever associate Tom Glaivine with the Union.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » January 15, 2004, 1:29 pm

Well first off, when I mean overrated, I don't mean bad. Ryan was a great pitcher and a worthy hall of famer. He's just not nearly as good as a lot of people give him credit for. He's a second or third tier hall of famer.

Facts to back it up:

2,795 walks (first all time)
292 losses (third all time)

Basically, Nolan Ryan was a power pitcher. Sometimes, he would come out on fire (witness: seven no hitters). And he could blow anyone away at any time. However, there was also a pretty good chance that you could stand in the box holding your dick and he'd give you first base for free. His high win total (12th all time) is negated by his high loss total (3rd all time). His ERA wasn't particularly spectacular.

I'm pretty sure I could come up with a list of 20 or 25 pitchers who were better than Ryan. Which is still pretty select company.

Rob Neyer makes a better argument than I do:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/1559625.html

Alfan · Post by **Alfan** » January 15, 2004, 2:45 pm

i pretty much hate the whole state of Michigan. although, most pointedly those football players that reside in Ann Arbor.

-alfan

Momopi · Post by **Momopi** » January 15, 2004, 3:19 pm

Yes, I'm not going to deny he had some control problems throughout his career but as far as that article goes, the guy really puts a big part of his arguement into the fact Ryan never won a Cy Young award. For the main part of his career, he was usually on a team who was around 500 or less. Its hard to win awards on losing/mediocre teams. In his better years, there was always a pitcher who had just a better year at the time. This is what I'm talking about here:

Team Year Record W L
Mets '68 73-89 0 1
Mets '69 100-62 6 9
Mets '70 83-79 6 3
Mets '71 83-79 7 11
Angels '72 75-80 10 14
Angels '73 79-83 19 16
Angels '74 68-94 21 16
Angels '75 72-89 22 16
Angels '76 76-86 14 12
Angels '77 74-88 17 18
Angels '78 87-75 19 16
Angels '79 88-74 10 13
Angels '80 65-95 16 14
Astros '81 61-49 11 10
Astros '82 77-85 11 5
Astros '83 85-77 16 12
Astros '84 80-82 14 9
Astros '85 83-79 12 11
Astros '86 96-66 10 12
Astros '87 76-86 12 8
Astros '88 82-80 8 16
Texas '89 83-79 12 11
Texas '90 83-79 16 10
Texas '91 85-77 13 9
Texas '92 77-85 12 6
Texas '93 86-76 5 9

His teams were usually subpar but yet he is all time 12th in wins. That is really saying a lot about how good he was. In my opinion, he is without a doubt the best pitcher to ever take the mound. Koufax is awefully close but not quite.

Aevian Dreaklear · Post by **Aevian Dreaklear** » January 15, 2004, 3:58 pm

I'd like to say I hate the Yankees as an organization. Now I am a fan of certain people of the Yankees, such as Jeter or Sorianno. But I just hate them as a team. Going out and throwing tons of money at free agents because it's no problem. Yeah it's George's money and he should be allowed to do whatever he wants, but that kind of payroll is killing small teams and taking the competitiveness out of baseball. Having such a huge payroll doesn't guarantee a championship or even just the playoffs (see the other NY team) but it does help quite a bit.

As for players I hate...let's see. I hated Kobe Bryant for the longest time since he didn't seem to respect MJ at all. I absolutely hate Ricky Davis. One game he had more than 10 points and 10 assists but needed the 10th board for a triple double. Takes the inbound pass with maybe less than 10 seconds to go, jumps and tosses the shot at his own goal and grabs the ball again trying to get that triple double. They didn't give him that last rebound and from that point I have hated him since.

I'll add more athletes as I can think of him. And as to any Yankees fan, I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything. Just voicing my opinion of my dislike of the team.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » January 15, 2004, 5:58 pm

Momo, I'm sure you're aware that according to the figures you posted, Ryan's teams went 2,077-2,073. He didn't pitch for shitty teams all his career, actually, far from it. He pitched for teams that were just slightly above average.

Ryan's teams had a winning percentage of .501.
Ryan himself had a career winning percentage of .526.
That means that his winning percentage was .025 better than the teams he pitched for.

To realize how much that sucks, let's compare him to the man who I think is the greatest pitcher of all time, Walter Johnson.

Johnson's teams went 1,559-1,609, for a total of .492.
Johnson went 417-279, for a total of .599, for a total difference of .107.

You'd like a more contemporary example, you say?

Well, Tom Seaver's teams went 1,577-1,596, .497.
Tom Seaver went 311-205, .603.
The difference here is .106.

What this means to me is that the argument claiming that Ryan's excessive losses were a result of his shitty teams is wrong. I didn't know specifically what results I would get from plugging in Seaver or Johnson, and admittedly, they're the only two pitchers i tried. I'm fairly confident that most top tier pitchers would yield similar results, however.

I'd also like to point out that Ryan's teams were, despite perception, better than the teams of either of the other two.

The Cy Young thing is important as well. The fact that Nolan Ryan never won a Cy Young means that he was never, in all of his career, the best pitcher in half of baseball. If he wasn't even the best pitcher for a single season in his long career, how could he possibly be the best pitcher in the history of baseball?

An enormous stretch, I think.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » January 15, 2004, 7:11 pm

Why are you people arguing about the merits of someone hating these people? Hate is a personal thing that may have some basis in logic but have long since left it in the dust and gone into the frenzy of emotion.

People like Barry Bonds, Keyshawn and Ulf Sammuelsson have all been mentioned, so I don't want to dwell on them.

Pete Rose - he may have been a great baseball player but he is STILL a Class A asshole... watch him in an interview if you don't believe me.

The New York Rangers - Aevian hit on part of it with the Yankees. You have a team that consistently signs free agents to ridiculous contracts, driving up the average salaries and all but bankrupting teams without pockets as deep and they can't even make the playoffs. Yay! Lets wreck our sport because we have money that we don't know how to fucking use intelligently!

Eric Lindros - He used to play hard on the ice, enough that I could stomach his off ice whining but now he's just an overpaid pussy. I won't mourn the day he gets his next concussion and is forced to retire.

Last but not least...

The Toronto-based Canadian media - there are more teams in the NHL than the Leafs. There are better teams and more interesting teams than the Leafs. There are more teams in MLB than the Blue Jays. Get the hint already. I could care less what Mats Sundin's dog ate: Jose Theodore's mob connections are more interesting! I could care less about Darcy Tucker's latest stubbed toe: he's a wimp compared to players like Todd Bertuzzi. I am sick of Pat Quinn's face on my TV whining about how hard done by he and the Leafs are by other people complaining to the media and officials: Marc Crawford and Jaques Martin are both better coaches.

Momopi · Post by **Momopi** » January 15, 2004, 7:26 pm

Players aren't measured by single seasons but rather entire careers. In my opinion Ryan is the best pitcher in baseball. Unfortuantly the year Ryan had his best numbers, Strikeout record, 22 wins and a good ERA, the media darling Jim Palmer was given the CY Young which was a load of BS. You also have to take into consideration why I think so highly of him is because of all the times I have seen him pitch and how his legend grew during the time that I was a baseball fan. I pitched in college and for me one of the most telling stats are hits per 9 innings...Ryan was about 6.5 hits per and Johnson was
about 7.4. Both are increadible for a total career.

I can certainly see you throwing out The Big Train as the best and I can't argue that because his numbers speak for themselves. I doubt many people back in the early 1900's could hit a 97+ mph fastball as he was a power pitcher like you said about Ryan. In a way I think its interesting that these two players are being compaired because they are so similar in so many ways. It would be pretty cool to talk sports with you sometime as I respect your views and your knowlage of the game.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » January 16, 2004, 2:37 am

I think the fact that baseball statistics are so meaningful as to make comparisons between eras relevant is one of the greatest parts of the game. Baseball's statistical obsession is it's saving grace.

And yeah, Johnson and Ryan do have a lot of similarities.

Narmgarf · Post by **Narmgarf** » January 16, 2004, 10:48 am

I'm gonna agree with Wulfran too...The Toronto sports media is ridiculous. I also hate how the Leafs seem to get 90% of the television coverage we get out here. Outside of hearing when they lose, I really don't have much interest in them.

Pat Quinn is up there on my list too (it's a long list). Can't say I'm a real big fan of Marc Crawford either though...wasn't overly impressed with him when he was down here (coached the St John's Leafs a nice few years back).

Narmgarf

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » January 16, 2004, 1:32 pm

If Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson switched eras, Ryan would have won 4 Cy Youngs or more. Randy Johnson still doesn't have a no-hitter, much less 7. Randy Johnson sure as hell won't pitch until he is 44 either. Yet he is considered by many to be the best pitcher over the last 5 or 6 years?

Nolan Ryan was a freak that only Roger Clemens can even hope to compare to. Clemens has been an amazing strikeout pitcher for his career and is only a couple years younger than what Ryan when he retired. Yet he is not even remotely close in catching the strikeout record. Ryan is easily in the top 10 of pitchers in the last half century.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » January 16, 2004, 2:52 pm

I hate the NY Jets, and I especially hate their fans. I hate the Buffalo Bills too. And I'm not fond of the NY football Giants, the Mets, the Yankees, the Knicks, or the Rangers, either.

So basically fuck all NY sports teams and all their shitty fans. Fuck Jersey too!

Dups. · Post by **Dups.** » January 16, 2004, 3:03 pm

Narmgarf wrote:I'm gonna agree with Wulfran too...The Toronto sports media is ridiculous. I also hate how the Leafs seem to get 90% of the television coverage we get out here. Outside of hearing when they lose, I really don't have much interest in them.

Pat Quinn is up there on my list too (it's a long list). Can't say I'm a real big fan of Marc Crawford either though...wasn't overly impressed with him when he was down here (coached the St John's Leafs a nice few years back).

Narmgarf

Well, If you live in the Greater Toronto Area... You are going to get Toronto related coverage. Give the public wants.... ok well. The majority of the city.

Narmgarf · Post by **Narmgarf** » January 16, 2004, 3:35 pm

I live the in the greater Newfoundland area

Newfoundland > all

Narmgarf

Drolgin Steingrinder · January 16, 2004, 4:40 pm

Which player do you hate and why?

Voronwë. He sucks.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » January 16, 2004, 7:39 pm

Don't hate tha playa, hate the game, Swede!

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 16, 2004, 7:57 pm

Drolgin Steingrinder wrote:
Which player do you hate and why?
Voronwë. He sucks.

Drolgin sucks more!!!

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » January 21, 2004, 12:58 pm

Xouqoa wrote:Brett Hull is one of the most entertaining (and truth speaking) figures in the NHL. How could you hate him? =)

Brett Hull is a self important pompous ass.

Back during the NHL strike a lot of the players were in Toronto doing the 3 on 3 tournament being played in Hamilton. One night was out at a bar called Montana's and a bunch of the players were there.

Met Gretzky (great guy-down to earth etc)
Marty McSorley (fucking hilarious)
Chelious another great guy (took time to talk to anyone who approached him)
Curtis Joseph (gentleman)

So anyhow was with a girlfriend who happened to know Chelios and was looking for him. Knowing that Chelios and Hull are friends she approached Hull and said "Excuse me Mr. Hull..."
Just got the words out and he says "Can't you see I am busy?"

The fucking guy was standing all alone at the patio bar doing jack shit.

She responds "I didnt really wanna talk to you at all was just wondering where Chelios was." He turns his back on her and walks away.

I think that if you are in the public eye and a sports figure you could at least have the decency to be kind. /shrug

Disliked this guy since then and also because of his hissy fit when he didnt make the Canadian team one year and so he applies for US citizenship to play for the US.

Really the only guy I dislike in professional sports. Oh and Thurman Thomas for the same reasons above.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 21, 2004, 1:07 pm

Luc Robitaille is a puss

so is Peter Forsberg

masteen · Post by **masteen** » January 21, 2004, 1:18 pm

Atokal wrote:So anyhow was with a girlfriend who happened to know Chelios and was looking for him. Knowing that Chelios and Hull are friends she approached Hull and said "Excuse me Mr. Hull..."
Just got the words out and he says "Can't you see I am busy?"

The fucking guy was standing all alone at the patio bar doing jack shit.

She responds "I didnt really wanna talk to you at all was just wondering where Chelios was." He turns his back on her and walks away.

ROFL!!!

noel · Post by **noel** » January 22, 2004, 3:24 pm

Al Davis, The Portland Trailblazers, and that doping jackass midget Marco Pantani.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » January 29, 2004, 4:40 am

[quote="Wulfran"]
Eric Lindros - He used to play hard on the ice, enough that I could stomach his off ice whining but now he's just an overpaid pussy. I won't mourn the day he gets his next concussion and is forced to retire.
quote]

Another concussion?!!?!!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=1721577

xZiBiT · Post by **xZiBiT** » January 29, 2004, 10:41 am

Canelek wrote:
Wulfran wrote: Eric Lindros - He used to play hard on the ice, enough that I could stomach his off ice whining but now he's just an overpaid pussy. I won't mourn the day he gets his next concussion and is forced to retire.
Another concussion?!!?!!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=1721577

Ok, he suffered the concussion on the hit but then after the hit and persuing faceoff, he goes and tries to beat the other guy up. What a dumbass, I wish the other guy would have landed at least two GOOD rights to Lindros's head and then headlines would read:

"Ranger dead on ice just like their playoff chances"

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » January 29, 2004, 11:18 am

I've always hated Lindros a lot. I remember when I went to an OHL game with my dad (was around the same time he refused to go play in Quebec). My dad brought a sign saying something like "Go home and keep crying to mommy", or something to that affect.

My dad was thrown out per Lindros's request. I hate him.

Also, I dislike Jagr, Roenick, and Brashear.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » January 29, 2004, 3:18 pm

I used to be a fan of Lindros since I am a Flyers fan...that is until all the crap between him and Bobby.

Gotta give Brashear some credit though, he is a hell of a defensemen!

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » January 30, 2004, 11:17 am

Canelek wrote:I used to be a fan of Lindros since I am a Flyers fan...that is until all the crap between him and Bobby.

Gotta give Brashear some credit though, he is a hell of a defensemen!

Thanks Cane I forgot to add Bobby Clark to the list and perhaps my most hated individual in all of sports for his treatment of Roger Nielson. No class no account mother fucker of all time.

Cheers

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » January 31, 2004, 4:39 am

Yeah, Bobby is a real bastard, but a hell of a player in his time...still a bastard.

laneela · Post by **laneela** » February 2, 2004, 6:35 am

Voronwë wrote:Luc Robitaille is a puss

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "puss" but he has more goals (and is working his way to leading in points) than any other left winger in NHL history. Mind you, his play has dropped as of late but he is 38 years old which is extremely old for a hockey player and has done a lot better this year with the Kings than he did last year as a Red Wing (in fact he already has more goals than he did the entire last season). Now, if you mean that he's not a tough guy - I'll agree. That's not (and never has been) his style of play but if you're going to try to say that he's not one of the best players to grace the ice, I'll call bullshit on that. To boot, he's class act off the ice as well.

As far as Forsberg, I won't defend him except to say that he is incredibly skilled. He's not a tough guy either but he can take a hit, unlike other skilled players like a Kariya. [/i]