Best news I've heard all week.

Arundel Pajo · Post by **Arundel Pajo** » December 12, 2003, 12:03 pm

Dunno how many of you are familiar with the Diebold corporation and the mess that is electronic voting, so I'll give a brief run-down:

In recent years, the US has seen a widespread increase in the use of electronic voting machines. These machines are made by a company called Diebold, who you may recognize as a maker of ATM machines.

Now, there are some problems with these machines, as we have seen in several state elections and the last presidential election - namely being the woeful insecurity against tampering these machines have. Seems these machines use proprietary, non-disclosed software, proprietary wireless communication, produce no paper record, and compile vote data into unsecured MS Access databases.

Boy howdy, I feel like my vote counts for something - how about you?

These machines can, and evidently *have* been tampered with on numerous occasions. Apparently, Diebold machines were at the vanguard of the problems in Florida during the last presidential election cycle...with a tampered machine registering -16000 votes for Gore and +800 or so for Bush in a district with something like only 600 people. Many other such instances (though less severe) were subsequently corrected, and blamed on repairmen inserting faulty chips into the machines.

Here in Texas a couple of years ago, we had a situation in which three districts that typically vote Democrat, and had every indication of doing so again, produced Republican victories. This is not so unsual in and of itself, but each victor won by exactly the same number of votes...in three separate districts. What are the odds of that happening? ...And they all were on Diebold machines.

Similar upset victories have been achieved on Diebold machines in several states. It seems like I even recall something about deceased people having been recorded as voting on a Diebold machine...but I'm too lazy to source it at the moment, so it should probably be discounted unless somebody wants to do the legwork for me and find a source on that.

The Bush/Cheney administration has been pumping money like mad into Diebold - essentially keeping the otherwise floundering business afloat. Bush has made it his goal to make Diebold electronic voting the national standard. The CEO of Diebold, in turn, has promised to do everything in his power to ensure Bush sees the White House again in '04.

Now, don't get me wrong...this is *not* a partisan issue. The system could just as easily (and just as likely) be tampered with by Democrats, Libertarians, or those wackos who believe they came from another planet and successfully cloned a human. All we're seeing here is the party in power using their power to stay in power. Nothing new there, and that's not the point. The point is security.

With no paper trail to verify voter records with, a secret, proprietary system, and a CEO who can so easily be pocketed...WHY DO WE USE THESE??? This system is *way* too easy to tamper with, and there (as we saw so clearly in Texas) is no way to verify anything when something *does* seem fishy.

Anyway. Now that the background rant is done...I learned today that Senator Bob Graham, D-Florida, today introduced the Voter Verification Act - a legislation that would curb many of these problems.

Key provisions include:

Requiring that all voting systems produce a paper trail
Banning undisclosed software and wireless systems (open source!)
Suprise recounts in .5 percent of jurisdictions
Requirements met by 2004 presidential election

Given the security concerns of the Diebold machines, and how they can affect any party, it is also pleasing to me to see this proposed bill getting largely bipartisan support.

Best news I've heard all week.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » December 12, 2003, 12:11 pm

yeah this is a huge issue. these Diebold machines are not at all a good solution to making an electronic ballot box.

The 'master record' can be untraceably altered. that is a problem. Not as big of a problem as the fact that MS Access is the software that is used on Georgia's machines

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 12, 2003, 12:15 pm

It is a partisan issue really since the GOP seems to be the one fixing elections with these machines.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » December 12, 2003, 12:22 pm

i'm not of the opinion that any elections have necessarily been fixed with them, but that is a very possible eventuality with the gaping security flaws in their design.

the CEO of Diebold has been a major campaign contributor to Bush (his right as a citizen, but questionable considering the nature of the contracts that his company has with the government) and has said something to the effect of "I will do everything in my power to make sure Bush wins the state of Illinois"

not necessarily impropriety, but i'll just say "don't piss on my back and tell me it's raining"

Arundel Pajo · Post by **Arundel Pajo** » December 12, 2003, 12:27 pm

I wouldn't call it partisan, really. Though politically I am somewhat left of the GOP, I could just as easily see Dems abusing something like this, if the right people were in power.

It's less an issue of political ideology than it is of unscrupulous people. We just have an unscrupulous administration at the moment that happens to be Republican.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » December 12, 2003, 12:32 pm

On a related note, some newer Diebold ATM machines run Windows based software, due to customer (the banks) request. I'm sure the voting machines are no different.

There've been reports of ATMs being infected with the Nachi virus, and probably a lot more incidents are unreported. It's scarey knowing your money is being "protected" in public spaces by a largely unmodified version of Windows. It's even worse that our election system is going that direction as well.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » December 12, 2003, 2:12 pm

In Florida there was also many errors with the voting (chads) due to human error. The people running the booths havent emptied the machine of chads in years, when they were full it was very hard to make a hole in the cards.
Then you have the whole felony list fiasco.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » December 13, 2003, 12:13 pm

Surprising..

How many people still believe that citizens actually decide elections.

Silvarel Mistmoon · Post by **Silvarel Mistmoon** » December 13, 2003, 2:03 pm

These machines can, and evidently *have* been tampered with on numerous occasions. Apparently, Diebold machines were at the vanguard of the problems in Florida during the last presidential election cycle...with a tampered machine registering -16000 votes for Gore and +800 or so for Bush in a district with something like only 600 people. Many other such instances (though less severe) were subsequently corrected, and blamed on repairmen inserting faulty chips into the machines

I guess we can all forget about the ballots that the Dems designed and were used during the last election that people couldn't people picked the wrong person because they couldn't understand the ballot.

Similar upset victories have been achieved on Diebold machines in several states. It seems like I even recall something about deceased people having been recorded as voting on a Diebold machine...but I'm too lazy to source it at the moment, so it should probably be discounted unless somebody wants to do the legwork for me and find a source on that.

Yes there have been reports for a long time about deceased people voting but that has always gone on and usually found to be mostly found on ballots voting for Dems.

Arundel Pajo · Post by **Arundel Pajo** » December 13, 2003, 2:13 pm

Silvarel Mistmoon wrote:some reactionary partisan finger-pointing

Arundel Pajo wrote:It's less an issue of political ideology than it is of unscrupulous people. We just have an unscrupulous administration at the moment that happens to be Republican.

*cough* Reading is FUNdamental. Go ahead and find up there where I said this was a GOP only issue.

I think the O'Reilly factor is on somewhere.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 13, 2003, 3:25 pm

asking silvarel to say something remotely intelligent is probably a waste of time.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » December 13, 2003, 3:42 pm

Siji wrote:Surprising..

How many people still believe that citizens actually decide elections.

not surprising, however, is how many people have the mentality you have, and decline their privilege to vote.

Silvarel Mistmoon · Post by **Silvarel Mistmoon** » December 14, 2003, 4:43 am

I guess we can all forget about the ballots that the Dems designed and were used during the last election that people couldn't people picked the wrong person because they couldn't understand the ballot.

This is what happens when you post half awake.

What I meant to say was that the ballots that were designed by the dems were the ones that people claimed they picked the wrong person because they were not clear on which one to mark.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » December 14, 2003, 6:34 pm

THanks for clarifying your stance on the West Palm Beach punchcard ballots...which have nothing to do with this fucking thread...

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » December 14, 2003, 8:09 pm

I will never understand why people don't exercise their right to vote..

Siji · Post by **Siji** » December 15, 2003, 9:51 am

Kelshara wrote:I will never understand why people don't exercise their right to vote..

When actual votes count, and not electoral college votes, I'll be sure to place mine.

Llaffer · Post by **Llaffer** » December 15, 2003, 10:53 am

It works that way in every other type of election out there -- what's your excuse for those?

Deward · Post by **Deward** » December 15, 2003, 11:51 am

I don't think you can blame this solely on the GOP. Given the opportunity, I believe the Democrats would be more than happy to corrupt the system as well.

If the Diebold systems are easier to use then I say use them BUT they need to have a paper printout so the voter can verify his vote and so there can be a re-count of a hard sheet if necesary. I don't think the program for something like this should be open-source. I believe that just gives too many opportunities for hacking the system and finding its weaknesses. I agree that there are some improprieties between the Diebold CEO and the government that should be investigated.

As for electoral colleges, I think they are necesary if they were slightly modified. Not having the electoral vote would mean that most states beyond the largest ones would never see a political candidate in their state. A politician could devote his campaigning to a select few states and totally ignore the rest of the country. In most cases I have heard of, the electoral vote works as intended. The popular vote in that state determines which candidate will receive the electoral votes for that state. I have heard of cases where the electoral vote holder didn't vote the wishes of their state though and that is where the process needs changed.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » December 15, 2003, 12:25 pm

it doesnt matter which party the guy from Diebold endorses. the point is the machines have major security holes, and people from any party will learn to exploit them, and they will try as hard as they can to do it.

anybody who thinks that the leadership of either the Republican party or the Democratic party would not cheat if they could to win an election is a fool.

Ogbar · Post by **Ogbar** » December 16, 2003, 8:59 am

Aabidano wrote:On a related note, some newer Diebold ATM machines run Windows based software, due to customer (the banks) request. I'm sure the voting machines are no different.

Oh dear lord. Using Windows in embedded applications is a horrible mistake. It's strengths are generally not needed, and it's weaknesses become most pronounced. It flat out was designed for a desktop environment, which is entirely different than the fixed, restricted environment an embedded system should have.

On the plus side maybe I can play solitaire next time I am waiting for the damn thing to spit out my money / process my vote.

On the plus side, part 2: maybe the paperclip can pop up and tell me who to vote for.

Arundel Pajo · Post by **Arundel Pajo** » December 16, 2003, 9:25 am

Ogbar!

/wave

Arundel Pajo · Post by **Arundel Pajo** » December 16, 2003, 9:30 am

Ogbar wrote:On the plus side, part 2: maybe the paperclip can pop up and tell me who to vote for.

"You are about to vote TORY. Are you sure? The proper vote is WHIG."

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » December 16, 2003, 12:43 pm

ROFL Oggie

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 16, 2003, 3:48 pm

Windows CE is a lot more secure than microsoft's consumer OS.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » December 16, 2003, 3:51 pm

what isnt?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 16, 2003, 3:56 pm

I think windows in general gets a pretty bad rap for security. Every OS has flaws in it. Microsoft's just gets the disadvantage of being the overwhelming market leader and also has about 40,000 computer nerds all with an agenda against MS who spend 50 hours a week trying to find holes in it's armor. Microsoft is usually pretty good at plugging them when they are found.

If a Unix variant was just as prolific as Windows there would be even more problems.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 16, 2003, 3:58 pm

Ogbar wrote:
Oh dear lord. Using Windows in embedded applications is a horrible mistake. It's strengths are generally not needed, and it's weaknesses become most pronounced. It flat out was designed for a desktop environment, which is entirely different than the fixed, restricted environment an embedded system should have.

I can see this message popping up if you try to vote democrat:

Post by **Sylvus** » December 16, 2003, 4:01 pm

kyoukan wrote:I think windows in general gets a pretty bad rap for security. Every OS has flaws in it. Microsoft's just gets the disadvantage of being the overwhelming market leader and also has about 40,000 computer nerds all with an agenda against MS who spend 50 hours a week trying to find holes in it's armor. Microsoft is usually pretty good at plugging them when they are found.

If a Unix variant was just as prolific as Windows there would be even more problems.

That's precisely my argument when people start talking shit about Windows. Take like Mac for instance, people will bring up the blue screen of death or how there are so many more problems with Windows than Mac OS... what do they have, like 5% of the market share? Of course you're going to hear more about the OS that 80-90% of the people use.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » December 16, 2003, 4:14 pm

so that's why MS ran their patch servers on BSD earlier this year?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 16, 2003, 4:34 pm

Yes a security flaw was discovered and MS had to us another OS because people were actively abusing it to attack their servers and no one could download from them. I don't really consider that to be undeniable proof that windows is the world's worst OS. I consider it to be proof that most linux users are immature twats with a small penis complex about an OPERATING SYSTEM.

People should be glad that an infratstructure to repair and distribute fixes like microsoft's even exists.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » December 16, 2003, 4:59 pm

kyoukan wrote:Yes a security flaw was discovered and MS had to us another OS because people were actively abusing it to attack their servers and no one could download from them. I don't really consider that to be undeniable proof that windows is the world's worst OS. I consider it to be proof that most linux users are immature twats with a small penis complex about an OPERATING SYSTEM.

People should be glad that an infratstructure to repair and distribute fixes like microsoft's even exists.

OMG

noel · Post by **noel** » December 16, 2003, 6:28 pm

I agree 100% with Kyoukan.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » December 17, 2003, 5:49 am

The office I work in used to be a bank and we still have the ATM in the building. It had crashed one morning and the screen sat there saying "Starting OS/2 Warp".

Windows' problem is its size and integration to every aspect of the desktop. No other major OS has tried to do so much and as such its overall security and stability lag behind other OSs - even 30 year old ones.
Don't even get me started on the appropriately named "Wince"

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » December 17, 2003, 12:51 pm

When Linux becomes mainstream, there will be major holes in it and hackers will start to target them. The problem is that any retard can use Windows and allow their machines to become infected or currupt with a host of crap. When every retard can install and use Linux, then there will be an actual reason for hackers to target their flaws and exploit them.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » December 17, 2003, 1:05 pm

actually there has been much more reason to hack UNIX/Linux for the last 20 years than Windows. I would go out on a limb and say that more ultra-secure stuff is housed on *nix servers than any competing OS.

WinXP is the best desktop OS going, hands down.

And Kilmoll, I think RedHat out of the box does install as well as Windows 2000 did. So it is close

that being said the only way to truly secure any box is to unplug it from the network =D

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » December 17, 2003, 1:17 pm

kyoukan wrote:If a Unix variant was just as prolific as Windows there would be even more problems.

There are fundamental differences in the way they operate internally and have been developed. That's not a valid statement.

Having a 30 year old, mostly open code base rather than one that's been closely held and in a constant flux since inception is a major point in unix's favor as well.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 17, 2003, 6:59 pm

Voronwë wrote:so that's why MS ran their patch servers on BSD earlier this year?

That's not entirely true either.. IIRC MS outsource this crap to akamai or however it's spelt as well.

More correct would be when they attempted to move hotmail.com to IIS and it crashed so hard they had to fire the BSD boxes back up for quite a while, presumably until they could hack IIS/windows to cope w/ the scale of the project.

Regardless, it's horses for courses and Windows in embedded applications is like asking Tim "The Toolman" Taylor to design a lady shaver.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 17, 2003, 11:11 pm

Voronwë wrote:actually there has been much more reason to hack UNIX/Linux for the last 20 years than Windows. I would go out on a limb and say that more ultra-secure stuff is housed on *nix servers than any competing OS.

WinXP is the best desktop OS going, hands down.

And Kilmoll, I think RedHat out of the box does install as well as Windows 2000 did. So it is close

that being said the only way to truly secure any box is to unplug it from the network =D

yea well, fuck off!!

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » December 18, 2003, 7:57 pm

Voronwë wrote:I would go out on a limb and say that more ultra-secure stuff is housed on *nix servers than any competing OS.

IBM still owns the banking market for the most part, with quite a bit of Novell on the user side.

Industry in general and the govt are a mix of HPUX and Sun with some VMS and other legacy stuff thrown in. Most employees only see the front end.

Nothing big runs on any MS operating system. Partially due to the hardware available.

Salis · Post by **Salis** » December 20, 2003, 4:01 am

Voronwë wrote:actually there has been much more reason to hack UNIX/Linux for the last 20 years than Windows. I would go out on a limb and say that more ultra-secure stuff is housed on *nix servers than any competing OS.

WinXP is the best desktop OS going, hands down.

And Kilmoll, I think RedHat out of the box does install as well as Windows 2000 did. So it is close

that being said the only way to truly secure any box is to unplug it from the network =D

http://www.happyhacker.org/

Never successfully hacked, and although somewhat basic I bet there's been a million attempts. Any .mil, unless you're .ru ! I miss the cold war