National Championship

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Denadeb
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National Championship

Post by Denadeb »

I read this today and thought it was a pretty good article about the current situation.

http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/121 ... s001.shtml

For those who don't wanna click the link.
Dubois: It's LSU vs. OU as it should be


By CARL DUBOIS
cdubois@theadvocate.com
Advocate sportswriter

Since the announcement of LSU vs. Oklahoma in the Sugar Bowl, for a national championship sanctioned by six BCS conferences and the American Football Coaches Association, righteous indignation has been trendy.
This is not the finest hour for some highly esteemed commentators, columnists and coaches. It's as if they had no idea the BCS was designed to offset human bias and inject objectivity into deciding who plays for a national title.

Those who seem to have known all along seem to be in denial over the outcome.

Surely they saw what BCS experts wrote before the last weekend of games. If so, why the moral outrage? We all knew, thanks to the likes of Jerry Palm and ESPN's Brad Edwards, two intriguing things could happen:


LSU, because of a bump in schedule strength, could move ahead of USC in the BCS standings (That possibility caused no revolt).

Oklahoma, with a vise grip on first place because of season-long dominance, could afford to lose to Kansas State and still finish No. 1 in the BCS (nobody batted an eyelash at that one either).
But nobody counted on both happening.

By itself, each scenario seemed plausible. Neither evoked a national outcry. When each happened on the same day, with the combined effect of keeping USC out of the Sugar Bowl, some heavy hitters in sports commentary took offense, ranting as if fighting the discomfort of an atomic wedgie.

The Louisiana Superdome, we're told, will be the site of "CSI: New Orleans" on Jan. 4 as the nation comes to the scene of the crime to investigate how a worthy No. 1 such as USC can miss college football's Mardi Gras.

We're hoping to see consistency and credibility in the arguments.

Late in the season it became increasingly obvious this could come down to the teams' opponents. LSU was dismissed as having played too soft a schedule.

As LSU continued playing in the SEC, which has five teams in the top 20 of each poll -- more than any other conference -- its schedule strength received a bump. When the Tigers began consistently closing the gap on USC in the polls, the argument du jour was that USC's superior margin of victory proved it better.

When the season ended and the BCS computers overwhelmingly rated LSU's schedule as tougher than USC's, the argument then turned to intent: At least USC tried to play a tough schedule. It's not USC's fault Auburn, Notre Dame, Hawaii and BYU weren't as good as expected.

When LSU fans countered by saying Arizona was a top-10 team when LSU put it on the schedule -- and that LSU booked its two weakest opponents only after two stronger teams canceled -- the argument logically followed that you can only judge a team on the games it played, not the games it might have played.

So when that put the focus back on an LSU schedule that, from top to bottom, was stronger than that of USC, the issue changed to why Oklahoma is in the Sugar Bowl instead of USC.

Or it became: "The matchup everyone wants to see is USC-Oklahoma."

Or, after everything else failed, "I just think USC is the best team."

Come on. Not even Jimmy Ott will let you place a bet on Lock-of-the-Week Friday without an argument substantiating your pick.

The teams with the most victories? LSU (12-1) and Oklahoma (12-1). Is that unfair to USC (11-1) because the Pac-10 doesn't have a championship game?

Maybe. But this is about the schedule you played, not the schedule you might have played.

As for the vaunted USC margin of victory, consider that LSU outscored its opponents by 314 points. USC outscored its opponents by 281.

Still, let's take another view. The BCS exists, in part, to take out such subjective considerations as when a team loses and how that influences poll voters. Years of observation tell us that a team losing early in the season also gets back in line earlier to climb the ladder again.

With everything else being equal, let's talk more about timing.

USC lost Sept. 27 to Cal, 34-31 in three overtimes. Had USC lost that game on Dec. 6, would the Trojans be ranked No. 1 in both polls? Of course not.

Oklahoma won 12 straight games before losing 35-7 to Kansas State on Dec. 6. If the Sooners lost that game on Sept. 27 and still finished 12-1, would they be ranked No. 3 in both polls? Of course not.

LSU lost Oct. 11 to Florida, 19-7 in Tiger Stadium. If LSU had lost that game Sept. 27 and finished 12-1, would anyone be ranked ahead of the Tigers? No.

It's human nature to drop a team when it loses. It's not human nature, at the end of the season, to objectively vote a Top 25 based on the body of work of a full season. How often, in December, do you see a team climb over another team in the polls if both teams win?

The message from most voters is that it matters when you lose a game.

Or maybe it's that if No. 1 loses, No. 2 becomes No. 1. If No. 12 loses, No. 13 becomes No. 12. It's easier that way. Requires far less effort.

The BCS formula treats the season as a whole. That's why Louisiana Tech's last-minute victory over Michigan State in September and Nevada's surprising victory over Washington helped LSU and hurt USC on strength-of-schedule issues as much as anything that happened last weekend.

The failed squeeze bunt with a runner on third base in the second inning is as costly as the strikeout in the bottom of the ninth, but which do we say was the difference in the game?

Yes, but Oklahoma lost by 28 points. You don't deserve to play for a national championship if you lose to anybody by four touchdowns.

By popular demand, margin of victory was eliminated from the BCS formula two years ago. Why is margin of defeat now an issue?

We know who played the toughest schedules (Oklahoma and LSU). We know who won the most games (Oklahoma and LSU). Who had the worst loss?

Oklahoma lost to Kansas State 35-7 on a neutral field. Kansas State, playing a schedule rated No. 10 in the country, finished 11-3, 10th in the BCS and in the top 10 of each poll.

LSU lost at home to Florida 19-7. Florida, against the fifth-toughest schedule in the country, finished 8-4, 15th in the BCS and No. 17 in each poll.

USC lost at Cal 34-31 in three overtimes. Cal, against a weaker schedule than Kansas State or Florida played, finished 7-6 and unranked.

If you say Oklahoma's loss is the worst, it's because of the timing and the margin. Voters attach varying and subjective importance to each of those. The BCS formula is designed to compensate for that. I thought everyone knew that.

And how many points would the Sooners have needed in that game for that loss to be more acceptable than USC's loss to Cal? Fourteen? Twenty-one? Thirty?

Every coach who breaks the AFCA's agreement to vote the Sugar Bowl winner No. 1 needs to answer that question -- in public -- if OU wins. If LSU wins, a coach that reneges on the AFCA's promise hasn't been paying attention.

LSU played four games against teams in January bowls. Oklahoma played two.

USC played none.

The Sugar Bowl is for the national championship.
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Post by Tyek »

"And how many points would the Sooners have needed in that game for that loss to be more acceptable than USC's loss to Cal? Fourteen? Twenty-one? Thirty?"

How about more then 7 points. How about winning your conference. The Sooners were not just beat, they were DESTROYED. In every other year timing is a issue with losses. If the Rams lose in the playoffs this year do they get to move on because they had a better record then the Seahawks?

Dear god what is this guy smoking. To say that a loss by Hawaii to Boise State validates the BCS formula (I know he does not say that specifically) is sad and pathetic.

"The matchup everyone wants to see is USC-Oklahoma" - I thought it was USC - LSU, you know the 2 teams that won their conferences.

"The Sugar Bowl is for the national championship." - yes and so is the Rose Bowl if USC wins.

Sorry to rant but this is just pathetic.
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Post by Kelshara »

That article was the most biased piece of trash I have seen since last time I watched Fox News.
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Post by Denadeb »

I agree its somewhat biased but it does have some good points in it.
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Post by Tyek »

This is not meant as a slam, I was just curious what points were good? everything I read was more then slightly biased.
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Post by Boogahz »

biased against USC? Maybe because they are unable to show why USC would have been rated #1 to begin with. Yeah, they had one loss. Just like the other two teams in the running. That's the only similarity I see. I don't like it that Oklahoma can still get the championship just because of the idea of someone not winning their conference going on and being #1...Wait a minute...USC doesn't HAVE a championship game, so if you just took it by records in the Big12, Oklahoma DID win (damn Sooners). All three teams are there because of their strength of schedule. <---that's a period.
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Post by Tyek »

Yes USC did win their league. Look it up. They won the conference. A title game does not make one conference championship more valid then another, it just means that the league is looking to make a few more bucks by adding another game to the schedule. The benefit is more money for the conference, the downside is what happened to Oklahoma. Can you honestly say that Michigan is a less worthy champion then Kansas State because they did not go play another team one more time and win? (Notice I said Kansas State not Oklahoma, the second place team)
So again I wonder, why would a SECOND place team in conference be the National Champion. If there was a tournament like the NCAA Basketball one, I could accept it. But they want to play by this archaic standard and following their own history a late season loss is worse then a early season one. I think Miami would agree with that remember they beat Florida State, but lost later and did not get to play in a title. Happened to Notre Dame too, but apparently the Big 12 is above the rest of football and for the second time in just a few years we get stuck watching their runner up try and win a title.
I am not trying to start a fight, but I for one am tired of watching west coast teams get screwed. It happened to Oregon a few years ago and now to USC. The plus side is that if USC wins big, they should win the AP poll, which is the real poll this year anyway. I would love to see LSU and USC share a title. Frankly if we had a playoff all the arguing would be gone anyway, we would just have a true champ.
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Post by Zamtuk »

I'll call bullshit on the championship game. The reason that conferences like Big Ten and Pac Ten don't play one is because no less than 8 games are against each other. And in very few cases does it not work out where there is a clear winner. (see: last year, OSU not playing Iowa) By all means USC should be there against LSU, but that is not the case. Obviously the BCS is fucked, congress even agrees on that.
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Post by Boogahz »

Read my post again.

I agreed that Oklahoma did not win the Big 12 championship.

I also acknowledge that USC won their conference, but without a conference championship.

I then said that IF you went just by schedule up to that point (league chamionships), then there would be no question.

I also said that I don't agree with the whole idea of the current BCS in many places so far. It has screwed with "end results" and just made college football a "numbers" game. It's no longer about who looks/plays better in the eyes of the pollsters, it's all about what computers think. Hell, not even the computers agree all of the time. That's the part that seems odd to me. Are they not all running on the same information? If so, there should be no discrepencies between their results.

Did USC get screwed over? That depends. Do we continue to go by what the BCS computers show, or do we go by what we SEE? That's where the problems lie.
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Post by Fazzar »

All you USC slappies are making me sick. Look, there are 2 spots in the national title game....3 teams have one loss. Do the math, one team is gonna be left out, and whoever it is thinks they are screwed. I think a very legitimate argument can be made for USC to be the odd team out. Their loss is by far the worst loss of the 3 teams. Their schedule was the easiest. Now, I'm not saying that USC definitely doesn't deserve to be in the title game...I'm just saying that 3 teams and 2 spots = one angry team left out.
If USC wanted to be in the title game, all they had to do is win all their games...if they would have beaten Cal, they would be in New Orleans. Stop blaming the BCS....take some responsibility for your own actions.
Now, if all three teams were undefeated, then you could be mad because you could say we did all we could....but USC DIDN'T do all it could...it lost one game.
Beat Cal, and the dastardly BCS would be powerless to screw you.
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Post by Zamtuk »

umm, no. Saying, yeah all USC had to do was beat Cal is a line of logic found in retards. You basically said, well, all USC had to do was go undefeated to go to New Orleans. No fucking shit genius. Any big conference team that goes undefeated would go to the national championship.

As for the worst loss out of all three. Ha Ha. They lost by a field goal in TRIPLE OT. It wasnt a routing like you saw in, say, the OU-KS game. And they did win their conference. If you think a team should be able to win the championship without winning their conference, then perhaps NCAA Basketball is the sport to watch.

And Boogahz, I was agreeing with you. :wink:
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Post by Gamei »

If you want to see a 'good point' (at least in my opinion) in that article, read the section where he compares the three teams one losses, and the section where he talks about which teams' opponets are playing in bowls.

Sure it's biased against USC. It's an article arguing that USC isn't getting as screwed as some people claim they are. If it was an article arguing that Oklahoma shouldn't be in the National Championship, it would be biased against Oklahoma. Why cry 'it's biased!' when any article of this nature will be biased by its own content? =p

That aside, I think we need a playoff system. I also think Oklahoma - LSU is a good championship game. I also think USC - LSU, USC - Oklahoma would've been good championship games as well.

It all comes down to we need a fucking playoff system.
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Post by Zamtuk »

of course all of this is moot if USC loses to Michigan.
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Post by Tyek »

How is a 28 point loss better then a 3 point triple overtime loss? Sure Cal was not a great team, but Kansas State was a 3 loss team too. I look more at the actual games and of the three teams, only Oklahoma was completely dominated in their lone loss.

That said, I agree with Gam, we need a freaking playoff system.
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Post by Boogahz »

I would prefer a playoff system as well, but I don't see it taking place. This year is only the second year (I think) that there will most likely be a shared title under the BCS system. That doesn't help anyone. I STILL think the BCS is ok, but it needs some SEVERE twinking (i.e. get rid of SoE beta in-house team) and set it aside for a couple years to get the wrinkles out. Sure, it could be compared to what the Coach's and AP polls show and whatever other system was used before, but don't base the bowls on it. Then once it is refined, maybe it can be shown that it will work...and maybe it will just prove it wouldn't have worked.

And btw, the questions regarding the loss of USC were not serious. I knew the story about their loss as well when I posted. My main feeling is that this year, just like past years, with the BCS, things are just fucked.
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Post by Tyek »

I know Boog, I was responding to the statement by Fazz that the OK loss was better then the USC loss. I reread your email after you responded last time and realized it.
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Post by Gamei »

I agree based on end score Oklahoma's loss is more unsettling. But looking at the caliber of the teams kind of offsets that.

You can say 'I look at the actual games' but then you're missing the supposed point of the BCS. It factors in things from throughout the year, rather than just one game at a time, which is why we have the situation with Oklahoma in the national championship.

No, this is not me defending the BCS, but it is me pointing out that the original author's point in this regard is valid and meaningful, to a degree, based on his 'thesis.' He had a point, it meant something, whether or not you agree with the reason it was a good point is regardless. The way the BCS is set up, Oklahoma's loss was not as 'bad' as USC's loss, because Cal is a sub-standard team compared to KSU.
Sure Cal was not a great team, but Kansas State was a 3 loss team too.
You seem to be calling Cal a three loss team, which is entirely untrue. :? They had only lost three games when they beat USC, true, but you can't just ignore the fact that they lost three more after that. =p

I just don't think this guy's article was as full of shit as most of you claim. =p Also, I'm just happy a SEC team is in the championship!

And I do think a playoff system would be better than any combination involving the various polls SoS computing and whatnot. Bar none, hands down. This is the only major sport I can think of where the championship game isn't decided by some form of playoffs, including Division II III and so on of NCAA football!

That post was entirely too fucking long at 4:45 in the morning. =\
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Post by Fazzar »

All I'm saying is USC has no more, or less for that matter, substantial claim to be in the title game than Oklahoma or LSU. Only very minor points can be made in defense of any of the three. One of those teams is gonna be screwed...not one of them have a huge advantage over another. So, the picking of the two to be in the title game was left to the BCS.
I'm not saying that USC fans shouldn't be disappointed..if my team was USC, I would be disappointed. But don't blame the BCS in this case...it had to pick two teams, and it did.
I stand by my statement that if USC didn't want to be at the mercy of the BCS, they should have went undefeated. Teams in the past, like Penn State not too long ago, that went undefeated and didn't win the national title, now they have a legitimate gripe...they did everything in their power to win the title....how can you do better than win all your games? But USC did NOT do everything in their power to get to the title game...they LOST to a 6-6 Cal team.
Also, you say not winning your own conference should exclude you from the title game...that certainly is a black mark....but losing to a .500 team in my mind is just as bad.
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Post by xZiBiT »

BCS - love it or hate it, you have to live with it through at least 2005
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