Bonds

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » August 22, 2003, 2:27 am

Hate him if you like, but watch, you are seeing the best player of our time. Another walkoff tonight, it's just nuts to watch him. To quote Jim Rome "The best player in baseball should not be almost 40", but he is.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 22, 2003, 7:52 am

Bleh baseball sucks.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 22, 2003, 11:24 am

Albert Pujols isnt 40

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » August 22, 2003, 4:49 pm

Albert Pujols also isn't the best player in baseball.

Sure, he looks it on the basic stats, with .371/34/108, as opposed to Bonds .337/39/79. But going beyond that:

Bonds is slugging .755 to Pujols .690.
Bonds has an OBP of .519 to Pujols .438.
Bonds has 116 walks to Pujols 53.
Bonds has an OPS of 1.273 to Pujols 1.128.

These aren't unimportant stats. The fact that Barry Bonds reaches base more than half the time he's up to bat is an accomplishment unrivaled not only this year, but in all of baseball history.

Pujols has no talent on the base paths or in the field. Bonds, at this point of his career, also has none (although he once did). So the only advantages that we can see pointing to Pujols are his batting average and his RBI's. I will concede that his batting average is legitimately an advantage, however, when you couple his weaker slugging percentage with Bonds drastically higher OBP, it means that the advantage is functionally negated because, while Pujols extra hits may be positive in the sense that they can force errors and do a better job moving runners over, Bonds walks are far more plentiful.

The second advantage is the large RBI difference. We have to ask ourselves: Why, if Bonds has such a high batting average, such a high slugging percentage, and is such a proven clutch hitter, does he not have the quantity of RBI that Pujols does? The answer lies in their lineups.

This past offseason, the Giants lost Jeff Kent, a man who had driven in 100 runs or more for 6 straight years, and had even won an MVP award during that span. Kent had been Bonds sole protection in a lineup that otherwise had featured such memorable hitters as Rich Aurilia and Reggie Sanders. This year, the only semi-impressive player that Bonds has in front of him to drive in is Marquis Grissom, who has a batting average close to 300 and not a whole lot else. Grissom, a natural early order hitter in the twilight of his career, is sometimes being forced to bat third in order to compensate for the Giants lack of offensive punch. Edgardo Alfonzo, who was signed to replace the protection Kent provides, is batting .257 with sub-par power numbers. This means that Bonds is forced to rely on guys like J.T. Snow, Andres Gallaraga, and Benito Santiago for protection. This is a lineup that would have been pretty imposing like, 5 years ago, but now is aging and flailing. With these batters surrounding Bonds, why would a team pitch to him with runners in scoring position? Even when he's not intentionally walked, he is very rarely thrown a pitch to hit, and is rarely in position to get an RBI the old fashioned way- runner on base, good batter at the plate, good batter following him.

Pujols, on the other hand, hits in one of the best lineups in the National League. He has two of the best hitters in baseball protecting him; Jim Edmonds, who is putting up .278/32/76 numbers, and was playing even better before an injury hampered his production; and Scott Rolen, who is at .288/24/89. This isn't even to mention Edgar Renteria, who is batting .332, or Tino Martinez, who's hitting .285. All four of these players are better hitters and superior weapons than anyone on the Giants that Bonds can work with. It should be no surprise that Pujols scores and drives in more runs, and it is also no knock on Bonds that he cannot put up these numbers.

Also keep in mind that Bonds has 5 MVP's backing him up. Pujols has a long way to go to match that sort of consistency.

Bonds is not only the best player in baseball today, but potentially the best player in the history of baseball.

Pujols is certainly excellent, but he's in a class of young players vying to replace Bonds as the games elite hitter. He's still not conclusively better than Vladimir Guerrero, who last year put up .336/39/111, as well as stealing 40 bases and playing great defense, including one of the top two arms in the major leagues. And let's not forget that three years ago, Guerrero hit .345 with 44 home runs, or that he's driven in more than 130 runs in a season, and that he's been doing it consistently for longer than Pujols has.

Then of course we can't forget Alex Rodriguez, a gold glove shortstop who somehow manages to put up single season numbers like 142 RBI, 57 home runs, and consistent batting averages over .300. Pujols, despite playing the corners and the outfield, has yet to prove that he can match Rodriguez' power, and he certainly can't match his defense.

Pujols is great, but we need to hold off awhile before showering him with unnecessary accolades.

I spent way too much fucking time writing this.

Soreali · Post by **Soreali** » August 22, 2003, 5:31 pm

I'm sorry but bonds is not the best player of our time.. The man can send the ball out of the yard, good for him. The only reason he has 116 walks is because pitchers would rather walk him that let him take one out of the yard off them. Pujols isn't as big as a threat to do that.

And to say he's the best player in history is rediculous. He's a great player, but nowhere near the best.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » August 22, 2003, 5:36 pm

Pitchers would rather walk him than pitch to him because he's good enough to beat them consistently, and no-one else is. Pujols isn't as big a threat to that, correct- because he's not as good a player.

You can claim he's not as good as advertised, but feel free to post facts backing it up.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » August 22, 2003, 6:15 pm

Bonds is an ass....but he IS that good.

I don't like his attitude, but I like watching him on the field.

SC did a nice piece on his career yesterday I think? He was producing a lot of good numbers in other areas besides hitting for most of his career...

edit (Aside from all that, I really hope this forum isn't going to be overrun with football fans posting "<insert another sport here> sucks" everytime the rest of us decide to have a discussion. Kelshara, this is by no means a knock on your reply...but my true honest feelings, because above stated has happened everytime we have a thread on baseball, hockey, soccer, whatever).

edit2-god dammit i'm tired and jacked the word filter

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 22, 2003, 6:36 pm

Soreali wrote:I'm sorry but bonds is not the best player of our time.. The man can send the ball out of the yard, good for him. The only reason he has 116 walks is because pitchers would rather walk him that let him take one out of the yard off them. Pujols isn't as big as a threat to do that.

And to say he's the best player in history is rediculous. He's a great player, but nowhere near the best.

Who's better right now? Give me a name. I don't like Bonds but think he's the best player in baseball right now.

People going for the historical side and Babe Ruth will go right to the pitcher stats which they think no one knows but EVERYONE knows about his stats as a pitcher. I don't think Bonds could fuck as many women, party it up, drink as much booze and still have the stats Babe put up though. Got to give the man credit for that.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » August 22, 2003, 6:57 pm

Bonds is the best hitter I've ever seen. He's a good outfielder, but it's not exactly the most challenging position in the field.

I could name various pitchers, catchers, short stops, and 2nd basemen that aren't as good a hitter as Bonds is, but add as much (if not more) to their team. Let's also not forget that Barry's attitude isn't good for team chemistry AT ALL.

Finally, I present y'all with a list that Barry will never be on, the all time World Series dinger list:

Mickey Mantle 18
Babe Ruth 15
Yogi Berra 12
Duke Snider 11
Reggie Jackson 10
Lou Gehrig 10
Joe DiMaggio 8
Bill Skowron 8
Frank Robinson 8
Hank Bauer 7
Gil McDougald 7
Goose Goslin 7

Babe Ruth may have been a fat pig of a man, but he knew what glory was. Don't even get me started on Mickey Mantle or Reggie...

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » August 22, 2003, 7:02 pm

How far do you have to go down that list to find someone who's not a Yankee?

Put Bonds on the Yanks instead of the Giants and I guarantee you he owns that list.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » August 22, 2003, 7:09 pm

He's too much of a selfish prick to play for the Yanks of old. I bet even Steinbrenner wouldn't touch him. Their collective ego could collapse under the massive weight and form a singularity.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » August 22, 2003, 7:11 pm

He is a great hitter, but he is not a great baseball player. Do I need to remind you that Sid Bream scored from second base on a single to short left field while he was playing there? I could have jammed the ball up my ass and farted it to home plate with enough force to throw out El Sid. Baseball is more than hitting though.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » August 22, 2003, 7:25 pm

Kilmoll: Yes, which is why A-Rod and Vlad have legitimate arguments for being better players than Pujols.

However, Bonds hasn't always been ass in the field- back in his day, he won a shitload of Gold Gloves. It's just that he's 39 years old now, and his defense has slipped considerably.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 22, 2003, 7:28 pm

No, it's just that I don't get baseball. I know the rules, but man.. I really really don't understand the fun of watching it. One of the few popular sports I really don't understand why people watch. At the stadium I can understand, but on tv?

Plus, it was meant as a bit of a smack to people who always say that about European sports heh.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » August 23, 2003, 2:58 am

Few points to make

1. You get a writers perspective on Bonds and he IS an ass, that started WAY back in Pittsburg with a SI peice, he has hated them since. Ask his teammates (excluding Kent, who is also an ass) and they like him. Being a Bay area guy I hear a lot more interviews then most so I will give an example. Jason Schmidt is aquired from Pittsburg in a trade last year, first day with the team he starts, pennant race, blah blah blah. He said he was nervous, but right before they took the feild, Bonds walks up to him "you got the stuff, trust the defence, trust this park, you'll get the win". Schimdt STILL talks about that, how he felt at home right away from a guy he thought was going to be a jerk. Don't take the media's perspective as golden.

2. Bonds= only member of the 500/500 club (hr and stolen bases) noone is even in the 400/400 club.

3. Bonds, barring an injury, will break Hank Aaron's HR record

4. I have met Bonds, on two occasions at ball signings (both during spring training on consecutive years). He took the time to talk with my son (at the time 5 and 6 respectively) and joked with him about JT Snow being his favorite player, he did not just sign the ball and say next, he took the time to make my son feel special, even to the point of asking if 2 signed balls would let make my son reconsider who was his favorite, he was a genuinely nice person to all the kids in line and he took time with all of them, not many players do that (we do OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of signings).

5. Bonds does a helluva lot more then jack balls out of the park, his RBI total off home runs is very low because noone pitches to him with men on, he does know how to situational hit.

6. 8 Gold Gloves and 5 time MVP, noone has 4 MVP's and he could easily have won the two times he came in second

7. HR record (73), Slugging % record (.863), Walks record (198), On Base % record (.582) and the oldest player to win his first batting title (.370)

8. He has a respect for the game few players have today, he even apologized for pumping his fist in the air after a HR the other day, he said he got emotional (he had been gone to be with his Dad dying of cancer), when they were cheering him in opposing stadiums during the 73 HR season, he always said, "I am not trying to show the other team up, it's great to hear, but this is their house".

I will say, Ruth, Williams, Mays, DiMaggio and Bonds are the top 5, but right now you can only see one of them play.

*EDIT* damn word filter

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » August 23, 2003, 4:14 am

I don't think that Joe DiMaggio belongs in that illustrious company. While he was certainly a good player, his career didn't have the depth that many others had. I'd put players like Honus Wagner, Frank Robinson, Mickey Mantle, or even Josh Gibson above him, and that's discounting pitchers.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » August 23, 2003, 10:00 am

Sueven wrote:I don't think that Joe DiMaggio belongs in that illustrious company. While he was certainly a good player, his career didn't have the depth that many others had. I'd put players like Honus Wagner, Frank Robinson, Mickey Mantle, or even Josh Gibson above him, and that's discounting pitchers.

You are 110% correct, it was SUPPOSED to be Mantle and for some fucked up reason I typed DiMaggio, it was late and I have been working too damn much

Ohh and one of two players ever to be intentionally walked with the bases loaded, the other was Ruth

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » August 23, 2003, 7:08 pm

Bonds is the best player I've seen, and I've watched a lot of baseball in my years. The fact that Babe Ruth was both an outstanding position player and top-flight pitcher still puts him at the top of the all-time list for me.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » August 23, 2003, 8:13 pm

I've never been impressed by Babe Ruth's ability to pitch. It's really not at all uncommon for a position player to have pitching talent. Ichiro throws an accurate fastball in the mid-90's. That dude on the Brewers plays outfield and pitches competently. Many position players, especially right fielders and third basemen, can throw every bit as effectively as a pitcher- the only difference is that they don't develop it. Also keep in mind that Babe Ruth pitched in an era when the curveball was considered cutting edge, and Walter Johnson won more than 400 games throwing virtually nothing but fastballs. That doesn't diminish the accomplishments of older pitchers, but it means that being a pitcher required less expertise. If Ichiro or Vlad Guerrero or Scott Rolen was alive in 1920, they would have won 20 games a season. Pitching simply wasn't the complex art that it is now.

Post by **Xouqoa** » August 23, 2003, 8:59 pm

Baseball during Babe Ruth's time and baseball now are two completely different sports, I feel. If you took Ruth and put him in the game today, I don't think he would be as good. However, if you put Bonds into the game when Ruth was at his peak, I think he would completely dominate.