Mafia - discussion thread

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » March 6, 2005, 12:19 pm

Ok, the game is probably going to go on hiatus for a week or so while we bang out a few changes to the setup to make posting a defense worth it, allow for better chances of survival on all teams, ect.

So the thing I'm going to ask now is:

What changes would you make to Mafia to improve the gameplay experience?

Mr Bacon · Post by **Mr Bacon** » March 6, 2005, 12:24 pm

1) required alibis with specifications about WHY they are innocent, not just what they were doing at the time.

2) No rule breaking whatsoever

3) We need some sort of incentive for people to vote innocent. Currently, the game may as well be played as if the detectives make a list from the beginning and just follow it, because they KNOW people will be voted guilty.

4) Maybe a system of linked killings.. So we know what mafia killed who. Each team will leave a "token" at the crime scene. Will make it more interesting, and allow for actual suspicion

That's it for now...

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » March 6, 2005, 12:42 pm

5) Donations will be hidden next round to remove the thought of killing someone 'just to make sure' that the pot stays sweet. (ref: Midnyte's doantion, which was repaid becaus he lived through it.)

Waikiki · Post by **Waikiki** » March 6, 2005, 12:46 pm

3) is what currently causes 1).

We could invoke some penalty for voting a citizen guilty. For example, if you vote an arbitrary number (4-5?) of citizens guilty throughout the game, you automatically die/go to trial/something else. However, this would result in the detective being punished in the same way, which might not be bad since they are voting off of the same alibi as everyone else.

Also, I think once someone dies, they should not post on the thread until the game is over.

Now, the required alibi thing, I am not sure that I agree with enforcing a structured alibi. My alibi last game (or lack thereof) was actually my strategy for getting let off, and it almost worked (4 not guilty, 5 guilty). I believe this was the closest vote toward the end of game 3, as every person brought to trial was found guilty. So, I think by requiring a structured alibi you effectivly limit some of the strategy involved in the game.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » March 6, 2005, 12:54 pm

I'm trying to think of a forced interaction to add to the game..

either requiring people to post their suspicions and accusations... 'i think it was xxxxx who killed yyyyy because'....

or removing the detective role, and having citizens pm the gm the names of 2 people... and whichever two people get the most entries get killed. to empower the citizens to decide and yet remove the trial aspect.

just ideas...

Thess · Post by **Thess** » March 6, 2005, 1:00 pm

The thing is - after the second day or so, everyone playing's strat was the same - to stay low key and almost feign interest in it. Once I killed two citizens it was a bit easier to see who the mafia were, they would vote once, or miss days completely on voting, or just post votes without any comments.

Obviously people will have to switch up tactics next game.

Mak · Post by **Mak** » March 6, 2005, 1:03 pm

I'd really like to see some way that the Detectives can actually obtain clues to figure out who killed a citizen. Perhaps they can earn points somehow to obtain clues from the GM. The clues could be something like, "A mafia member has >5 letters in his/her name." or "A mafia member has >300 posts." or something similar. I'll have to think of a good way to earn points to get clues.

I'd also like mafia to be able to learn, with roughly the same system, who members of other mafia clans are. Clues would be limited, so mafia can use them to try to guess a detective or a mafia. I think it's an interesting dilemma for a mafioso to be in- use his points for a Detective Clue or use it for a Mafia Clue- cause maybe the other mafia is gunning for them today and not the detective. Bad guys are constantly paranoid, right?

And, uh, maybe the Citizens can somehow earn points for a "Legal Defense Fund" and hire Johnny Cochran, which can earn them a bonus NG vote or something.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 6, 2005, 1:50 pm

There is a version of the game called "Werewolves" or something like that with really complex rules. Something about special citizens who for one night can know who one person is, and some other wacky things. I think Mafia is like the most pared down simple version of it...

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 6, 2005, 2:07 pm

Mak, there are enough clues/sneaky things that can be done. I knew 3 of the main players by the time I was killed... I didn't SAY anything about the other two because I was unsure of their roles. Although I have to say about Lynnsie that was total and pure unadulterated luck.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 6, 2005, 2:14 pm

Okay, here's what I want to say about statistics:

At the end of the game, I'm sorry but if there are 4 mafia, 1 detective, and 5 other citizens, you are going to have to make a damned good case. All this talk of good defenses, but I'm sorry I can't blame citizens for always voting guilty in that situation.

However: At the beginning of the game unless you have something clever in mind I want to reccommend against always voting guilty. Here's something to think about. What if Teeny had been the detective this game? The citizens would have surely screwed themselves.

It's better to think than play the statistics usually.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » March 6, 2005, 2:22 pm

if ya notice the judge seemed a bit bothered by the mass-guilties the first 3 days.. because it was too early and hard to build a case...

but from there on, there was something to go on..

what if the detective could decline to bring anyone to trial the first 2 days... or only bring one... if they have a reason to suspect them.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 6, 2005, 2:28 pm

I'm sure the detectives CAN do that. Whether or not that's really desirable I don't know...

Avestan · Post by **Avestan** » March 6, 2005, 2:29 pm

I have not played with you guys, but the way this game is normally played, there is no innocent or guilty wote. The discussion happens before the detectives name the people to go on trial. The detectives will try to form the discussion without making it obvious that they are the detectives and the mafia will try to deflect public opinion without making it obvious that they are mafia. Sometimes people will try to put detectives up for trial and they will sometimes have to say "don't do it, I am a detective". This, of course, could be a lie, but if it is not, at least it gives you that round with a detective.

Also. The order we always played was this.

1. Mafia kills

2. Detective/s can "point" to one person and ask the moderator if that person is mafia without anyone else knowing who he/she is pointing to.

3. Moderator gives yes/no answer

4. Discussion ensues. If the detective/s know a mafia member, they try to shape the discussion towards them without making it obvious to other mafia that they know something.

5. "The people" put someone on trial and execute them (no discussion here)

6. Daily Summary (who did we kill)

7. Return to 1.

This format might work a lot better.

ps. We always played with an even number of detectives and mafia.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 6, 2005, 2:56 pm

An interesting variant on what I learned...There are so many different ones..

But that seems kinda fun too! I'd be willing to play that way! =D

Mr Bacon · Post by **Mr Bacon** » March 6, 2005, 3:00 pm

Let's design our own-

Drinsic Darkwood · Post by **Drinsic Darkwood** » March 6, 2005, 3:42 pm

I support Rellix's suggestions... tokens from each team (coins over the eyes, etc.), and some sort of incentive to promote voting people innocent, etc.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 6, 2005, 3:50 pm

I tell ya what...Give me a few days, I'm flying out to a conference tonight. I'll try to come up with some sort of improved system. Although something along the lines of what Drinsic says isn't that bad either.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » March 6, 2005, 3:53 pm

We'll keep working on ideas in this thread too, then compare notes when you get back.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » March 6, 2005, 4:07 pm

maybe like a 3 strikes type thing. If a citizen is convicted and put to death, all those voting guilty get a strike. If/when a person gets 3 strikes, maybe put them to death?

Just an idea I'm throwing out.

Avestan · Post by **Avestan** » March 6, 2005, 5:58 pm

Shameless self-promotion:

I think you guys would really like the system I suggested. It gets a lot trickier and more strategic if the group has to decide who to put on trial.

Traz-KOE · Post by **Traz-KOE** » March 6, 2005, 8:05 pm

I like Avestan's suggestion, and that is the way I ave always played as well.

However, don't forget the doctor.

Each night, the doctor secretly "points" at one person they are going to "protect". This person cannot be killed that night (If the mafia makes an attempt on that person, they will be miraculously saved by a house call from the doctor).

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 6, 2005, 10:16 pm

More and more that seems like "Werewolf." =D

Fash · Post by **Fash** » March 7, 2005, 12:43 am

What are your thoughts about the board option to hide yourself from view?

edit: for those in an active game of mafia... moron.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » March 7, 2005, 12:52 am

i'm always hidden b/c i'm paranoid. or are you talking about in game?

Thess · Post by **Thess** » March 7, 2005, 1:04 am

Fash wrote:What are your thoughts about the board option to hide yourself from view?

edit: for those in an active game of mafia... moron.

I loved it, it made it easy for my strategy for the game

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 7, 2005, 6:15 am

(Hotel room has Internet

)

Okay, I've thought about it on the way here, I have a suggestion (which is probably exactly what Rellix had in mind...) .

Perhaps when we do a "pot" we assign each player like 3(5?) imaginary tokens. These tokens represent a percentage of your winnings.

If you die you lose all the tokens you get.

However. If you win but you were being lame, maybe you only have 1 token left, and get 1/3rd what you would have gotten if you weren't being so lame.

Or: If you post a good defense or do something good, the judge assigns you an additional token. Now you started out with 3. But since you died we subtract your initial tokens, and give you what's left as a good bonus.

So maybe you died but because of your actions you earned two tokens anyways. Or maybe you were just lame, and you won so you get almost nothing.

Mr Bacon · Post by **Mr Bacon** » March 7, 2005, 10:57 am

Eh.. my token idea was actually just for mafia members to leave at the scene of a crime, like a burglar may leave their card.

Just allows for an interesting link between crime scenes.

Drolgin Steingrinder · Post by **Drolgin Steingrinder** » March 7, 2005, 12:09 pm

At the very least, if we have 3 teams of mafia that can kill 1 person each round, let us know which team is responsible for which murder. That way it'd be a lot easier to see a pattern (if there is one). It also makes misdirection more fun.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 7, 2005, 8:31 pm

Someone told me this, and I think it bears repeating. They wished to remain anonymous.

I know there seems to be a loss in incenntive to vote innocent on people.

And in my opinion, all these ideas people are throwing out -- they change the game completely.

This game is fun AS IS.

All that I think you need is this slight addition.

Any citizen killed from the trial gets a cut of the profit. Give every innocent a percent of the profit. While the living citizens at the end get about 100 VVs (make it a set number). The dead innocents get 5%, maybe more. Maybe give them 8% per dead.

This is a game for everyone, and the VVs are the prize. Stop the always guilty votes by putting their prize at risk. The detectives will still get a large portion of it, because they get whatever is left -- more then any single person got. Same with the Mafia.

The only real gamble in the game is between the mafia and the detectives. Good and evil. One of them should truly lose out on the prize at the end. Thats all it requires.

Of course -- this all could be tweaked a bit.

[/quote]

Fash · Post by **Fash** » March 7, 2005, 8:50 pm

standard defense if things go that way: "hey im not guilty, but go ahead and vote me so.. i want my vv's!!"

Nilaman · Post by **Nilaman** » March 7, 2005, 9:16 pm

Mmm, the way it has been looking. I believe the game will require you to have a solid defense of some form? So no more "go ahead and vote" stuff happens. I think that is reasonable to ask from anyone volunteering to play the game.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » March 7, 2005, 9:33 pm

it -is- fun the way it is... i can say that because I played the first two rounds and co-gm'd the third, and I had a lot of fun. but we are all able to look at it and find problems. i point to the lack of possible evidence in the beginning, and bad defenses leading to almost random votes

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » March 7, 2005, 9:52 pm

why fix what ain't broke gang?

the game was fun all 3 rounds, people got up to speed on it in a hurry and we all enjoy the creative deaths.

I say leave it as is.

Mr Bacon · Post by **Mr Bacon** » March 10, 2005, 10:43 pm

MooZilla · Post by **MooZilla** » March 10, 2005, 10:46 pm

i just wasted a thread.

doh.