VeeshanVault

We all spend plenty of time each day debating the merits of the war in Iraq, but we rarely take a moment to stand back and see what kind of effect it has. The people of Iraq have sustained many casualties since the war began, and more will continue to die, from both coalition forces and Iraqi insurgents. It's easy for us to stand back and debate it with a detached view, but just consider this. To date it's estimated that over 11,000 civillians have been killed since the beginning of the war.

If you want to read more on it, here's a good source: http://www.independent-media.tv/gtheme.cfm?ftheme_id=42

Hopefully their families appreciate the sacrifice they've made for their country. I know all those who wish only freedom in Iraq feel they gave their lives for a just cause.

God bless.

May the Innocent victims of this war rest in peace and our prayers should go out to their loved ones.

See, Dregor? You got Cart to post a fairly nice comment on one of your threads. FF works!

thank god they are giving us the freedoms to post on this message board.

They were weak, why should americans do what they could not? If the people of Iraq were too ignorant/afraid to warn America on the imminent attack on 9/11, what makes you think they'll change? Let alone be worthy of my condolences.

Looks like they ended up in the only place hotter than the sands of Iraq! Hell.

Grats on your suspension, wont miss you!

Not to defend him but that wasn't a flame. At least I don't think so. How do you define flame from opinion?

Is there much difference?

They were weak, why should americans do what they could not? If the people of Iraq were too ignorant/afraid to warn America on the imminent attack on 9/11, what makes you think they'll change? Let alone be worthy of my condolences.

Looks like they ended up in the only place hotter than the sands of Iraq! Hell.

If that wasn't a joke, then youve just stepped up to the throne of most ignorant and hateful peice of shit on the board. You are a pathetic person.

*NEWSFLASH*
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11
CONSPIRACYZ

I wanna slip my tubsteak into your sister. Is that considered a flame?

Bubba Grizz wrote:Not to defend him but that wasn't a flame. At least I don't think so. How do you define flame from opinion?

An opinion is a belief held but not necessarily substantiated by proof.

A flame is a response whose sole purpose is to incite an angry response/reaction by insult.

The two are not mutually exclusive. It could very well be my opinion that you're an asshole.

There is no aggression in what I post, people merely take it into their own minds that I'm out to anger them. I'm not trying to manipulate you, but you make it so easy.

No you just stated an opinion, not a flame. It just happens that your opinion is the one of the most ignorant statements Ive ever read on this board and that says a lot.

masteen wrote:I wanna slip my tubsteak into your sister. Is that considered a flame?

what'll you take in trade?

I've got a 6 pack of beer, and a bag of chips.

Anyone have a better offer?

Xyphir wrote:

Bubba Grizz wrote:Not to defend him but that wasn't a flame. At least I don't think so. How do you define flame from opinion?

An opinion is a belief held but not necessarily substantiated by proof.

A flame is a response whose sole purpose is to incite an angry response/reaction by insult.

The two are not mutually exclusive. It could very well be my opinion that you're an asshole.

Just out of curiosity then...do you think I am an asshole?

Sorry, not meant to derail. I feel sad that the people died but I don't know if I would label them heroes, just victims.

Bubba Grizz wrote:Just out of curiosity then...do you think I am an asshole?

Not at all. I was trying to make a point.

I don't see how you can put a blanket over the situation and call these 11,000 people heroes. What brave, extraordinary thing did each and every one of them do? It's possible that some of them may have stood up for their human rights and freedom, but I would venture to guess most were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I feel remorse for anyone that dies due to armed conflict, but that doesn't necessarily make them a hero.

If you're sitting around the dinner table, and a bullet comes through the wall from a nearby firefight and catches you in the head, does that make you a hero? No, a tragedy maybe, but not a hero.

If a bullet goes through Dakamura's window and pierces his temple while he is eatting his chicken pot pie, I wouldn't call it divine intervention... just a good shot.

Dakamura_CT wrote:If you're sitting around the dinner table, and a bullet comes through the wall from a nearby firefight and catches you in the head, does that make you a hero? No, a tragedy maybe, but not a hero.

But what if you're a vegetarian?

Vegitarians don't sit at a table to eat?














:disclaimer: no, I am not stupid

Guys, please keep it on topic and civil. Make another thread if you want to discuss the topic.

way to contradict yourself fella

Dregor Thule wrote:Guys, please keep it on topic and civil. Make another thread if you want to discuss the topic.

Why does another thread need to be made if we want to discuss the topic? Discussion is not flaming...

Actually, mine kinda was. Sorry Dregor, I will restrain myself.

XunilTlatoani wrote:

Dregor Thule wrote:Guys, please keep it on topic and civil. Make another thread if you want to discuss the topic.

Why does another thread need to be made if we want to discuss the topic? Discussion is not flaming...

I didn't make the rules, sorry.

edit: ok apparently bad movie lines are quoted around here or something. carry on.

Being dead doesn't make you a hero. It makes you unlucky. As time goes on, the soldiers fighting in Iraq are going to start to have the same consideration as those in Vietnam did. And no, I'm not comparing the two encounters - just John Q. Public's attitude towards people killing or dying in the name of something that doesn't affect us here in our own country.

Dregor Thule wrote:

XunilTlatoani wrote:

Dregor Thule wrote:Guys, please keep it on topic and civil. Make another thread if you want to discuss the topic.

Why does another thread need to be made if we want to discuss the topic? Discussion is not flaming...

I didn't make the rules, sorry.

you know perfectly well what tosh did was completely inflamatory.

Acies wrote:If a bullet goes through Dakamura's window and pierces his temple while he is eatting his chicken pot pie, I wouldn't call it divine intervention... just a good shot.

LMFAO

XunilTlatoani wrote:I don't see how you can put a blanket over the situation and call these 11,000 people heroes. What brave, extraordinary thing did each and every one of them do? It's possible that some of them may have stood up for their human rights and freedom, but I would venture to guess most were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I feel remorse for anyone that dies due to armed conflict, but that doesn't necessarily make them a hero.

We regularly honor collective groups of people because we recognize what they collectively went through or accomplished without knowing their individual stories.

i.e. D-Day veterans. We know that some of the men freaked out and didn't behave in a heroic manner when the shit hit the fan (and I don't think any of us posting on this board has any right to judge them) but we recognize their collective accomplishment.

i.e. We recognize the horor Jews went through in WWII and what it must have taken to live through that yet we know that some Jews cooperated with and even conspired with the Nazis.

i.e. We honor our war dead as heroes, many of whom did not die in a heroic fashion.

I would disagree with you in part Forthe. I see the civilian casualties in Iraq as victims. In short, something bad happened to them, and they had no input into it. The same goes for people in the WTC on 9-11 or the Jews in Nazi Europe or the Ukrainians in Stalin's USSR in the 30s.

To me, hero is someone who through their own choices or actions, works to the betterment of others at no benefit and some sacrifice to themself. Most of the Allied troops in WW2 were not conscripts: they volunteered to fight the aggression of Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany. The police and firemen who died in 9-11 are heroes: they were trying to get people out and save lives when they became casualties.

Now just don't ask me about the bravery/stupidity of most heroism

Bubba Grizz wrote:Just out of curiosity then...do you think I am an asshole?

Sorry, not meant to derail. I feel sad that the people died but I don't know if I would label them heroes, just victims.

agree with you there, but then again. the firemen that ran into the two towers were also simply victims because just like those Iraqis they were at the wrong place at the wrong time.
running into that building was an act of stupidity, before you flame me here remember that ff tag and also this. if they had given any thought to what was happening to the building before rushing into it, they would never have gone, it was a panic situation and they made a bad call, no matter how noble their reasons were.

XunilTlatoani wrote:I don't see how you can put a blanket over the situation and call these 11,000 people heroes. What brave, extraordinary thing did each and every one of them do? It's possible that some of them may have stood up for their human rights and freedom, but I would venture to guess most were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I feel remorse for anyone that dies due to armed conflict, but that doesn't necessarily make them a hero.

and the total population of the american armed forces are heroes because they talked it over amongst themselves and decided to sail over there and rescue that poor country ?
oh please .. no i mean it .. OH PLEASE.
they were under orders, period. some few, on both sides, iraqi army, u.s.army and the iraqi people were heros because they risked their lives to save someone they thought they could save and then did it.

Wulfran wrote:I would disagree with you in part Forthe. I see the civilian casualties in Iraq as victims. In short, something bad happened to them, and they had no input into it

disagree there, you simply have no clue what their input was, what you dont know happened doesn't mean that didn't happen. why those innocent people were situated at and around military targets could be for this reason.
saddam beeing a rather ruthless bastard may have taken some children and forced their parents to stay at and around those targets to try and refrain the american forces to blowing them up, so those parents for love of their children stayed there in the vain hope they might see their children alive again, and also hoping against hope that they wouldn't be killed from the incoming bombs from afar.

that change your mind a little ? if not then you need to focus on beeing a human beeing a little bit more and live and learn the meaning of Empathy !
saying that didn't happen is of course not an option because all though i made up that scenario. it COULD have happened, meaning you have every reason to respect the lives lost by iraqi citizens as you do american soldiers. we all like to root for our own team but dont take it to extremes, makes you look bad

It doesn't really change my mind Rass. I mean I think what has happened in Iraq has been a tragedy, especially when you do consider things like the wedding that was attacked. It just doesn't match up with my definition of heroism.

I mean the choice, to my mind, that some Iraqis made, was to stay and endure. In some circumstances, considering all that they have gone through, that may be considered heroic. Someone staying with their children, trying to comfort them as they are used as human shields, could be considered somewhat heroic as well. But someone who is "collateral damage" as they are passing by a government building deemed to be a target, or someone who is a victim of a ill-aimed round is just a victim for the most part: they didn't choose to do anything out of the ordinary.

Edit: btw they aren't "my soldiers". My country is in Afghanistan but not Iraq

stand corrected there , because i spose we all have different ideas and definitions of what heroism is.

but beeing in the armed forces of america and beeign sent over with overwhelmingly better equipment, training and information. stomping down an ant in another country, hypothetically speaking, is FAR from beeing heroic in my mind.

and they didn't have much of a choice in the matter either, they get sent there peroid. they have no say in the matter, sure they could choose not to go and i spose there are some penalites in some form or another if they do so. but the same goes with the civilians in Iraq, they could have picked up their things and moved, but just not a very viable option.

agree with you there, but then again. the firemen that ran into the two towers were also simply victims because just like those Iraqis they were at the wrong place at the wrong time.
running into that building was an act of stupidity, before you flame me here remember that ff tag and also this. if they had given any thought to what was happening to the building before rushing into it, they would never have gone, it was a panic situation and they made a bad call, no matter how noble their reasons were.

You can't be serious right? They were victims for risking their lives to run into a blazing inferno and saving lives? Rushing blindly into a hopeless situation in the hopes of saving lives isn't just "stupid", its heroic, plain and simple. Who ever said that heroism and stupidity are mutually exclusive? I'd call most heroism quite stupid, but it's still an honorable path. I wouldn't go so far as to call them victims though...

but beeing in the armed forces of america and beeign sent over with overwhelmingly better equipment, training and information. stomping down an ant in another country, hypothetically speaking, is FAR from beeing heroic in my mind.

It's heroic anytime you willingly put your life in danger to further a cause, whatever that cause may be. I'll agree with you that America doesn't belong in Iraq, and that the "cause" spoken of above is not exactly heroic, but the soldiers furthering that cause can certainly be deemed heroes in one way or another. Like you said yourself, the soldiers have no say in what happens, and truth is a lot of them are ignorant fools that live under the pretense that what they are doing is right, mostly because american policy and government dictates it to be so. Most of them are blind followers of a corrupt administration, but they're still heroes for being brave in the face of mortal danger, blind and ignorant though they may be. Keep in mind these "stupid" policemen and firemen, and those "stupid" soldiers, are what keep you safely at home, playing video games and posting opinionated nonsense on VV.

but the same goes with the civilians in Iraq, they could have picked up their things and moved, but just not a very viable option

Not a very viable option? We're the invaders, why should they have to pick up their things and move? Contrary to what American media would like to portray, the majority of Iraq's citizens are not happy to be "liberated". All you see on american media are happy Iraqi citizens cheering for american liberation...while European(non-Blair lackey countries) and Asian media show mostly the opposite. Sure Saddam is teh devil and he probably deserved to be dethroned, but we aren't the judge jury and executioner when it comes to world politics. Want to know why we are a main target for terrorist attack? It is partly because we meddle in other countries' businesses more than we should. Getting off topic though...

Iraqi civilians who were hurt or killed in this latest conflict in a bloody history of conflicts involving America, have my condolences.