income based penalties

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kyoukan
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income based penalties

Post by kyoukan »

I thought this article was interesting.

http://www.stayfreemagazine.org/public/wsj_finland.html
HELSINKI, Finland -- Jaako Rytsola, a 27-year-old Finnish Internet entrepreneur and newspaper columnist, was cruising in his BMW one recent evening. "The road was wide and I was feeling good," he later wrote. "It's nice to be driving when there's no one in sight."

But this road wasn't empty; a radar-equipped police car was clocking his speed. The officer pulled over Mr. Rytsola's car and issued him a speeding ticket for driving 43 miles an hour in a 25-mile-an-hour zone. The fine: $71,400.

The staggering sum was no mistake. In Finland, traffic fines generally are based on two factors: the severity of the offense and the driver's income. The concept has been embedded in Finnish law for decades: When it comes to crime, the wealthy should suffer as much as the poor. Indeed, sliding-scale financial penalties are also imposed for offenses ranging from shoplifting to securities-law violations. "This is a Nordic tradition," says Erkki Wuoma, special planning adviser at the Ministry of Interior. "We have progressive taxation and progressive punishments. So the more you earn, the more you pay."

But the arrival of a new, high-tech police tool for calculating traffic fines is making some well-to-do Finns progressively furious.

For years, the size of traffic fines was largely dependent on the honor system. Police officers asked violators for their current monthly gross income, then consulted a book of tables to calculate the fine. The police complained that drivers routinely lied -- it was "the national sport," says traffic officer Risto Maksimainen -- and the only recourse was to go to court. Motorists complained, too, arguing that the fines should be based on take-home pay, which given Finland's hefty income-tax rates, is considerably less than gross income.

And so, in October 1999, the Finnish government made some major changes, including basing fines on net income. But the biggest change was this: Using cellular phones, the police can now tap into official tax records, which in Finland are open to the public, and learn within seconds a driver's reported income and the corresponding traffic fine.

A Courtroom Challenge

Keijo Kopra, managing director of Vierumaen Teollisuus Oy, a wood-products company, experienced this firsthand in November 1999. On his way home from work, Mr. Kopra was pulled over for driving 14 miles an hour over the speed limit. Using the new system, the officer wrote him a ticket for $14,500.

Enraged, the executive challenged the amount in court, and a judge lowered it to $9,000. But then the police mentioned that Mr. Kopra had received two previous speeding tickets in 1999 before the new system went into effect. Based on the income he had claimed at the time, each fine was $750. The judge, outraged, imposed additional fines of $38,000 Mr. Kopra remains apoplectic. "This is no constitutionally governed state, this is a land of rhinos!" he says. "This is legalized robbery by police. I'm surprised they're not authorized to shoot you, too. But of course if they shoot you, they cannot get any money out of you."

Rather than pay the fine, Mr. Kopra says he offered to go to jail. The judge refused -- and Mr. Kopra was forced to pay. Teemu Selanne, Finland's most celebrated hockey player and a member of the National Hockey League's Anaheim Mighty Ducks, apparently isn't thrilled with the system, either. In June, he was fined $39,000 for colliding with another car in Finland and injuring five people. Mr. Selanne declined to comment for this story, but a close friend says he was so upset by the fine that he threatened to leave his country for good. "He was really angry because he thought it was not fair," says Hjallis Harkimo, who owns several European sports teams.

Many Finns believe the system is fair. Patrolling the highways outside Helsinki in an unmarked Opel, Officer Maksimainen and his partner, Anssi Ukonaho, clock a red Volkswagen Golf driving 18 miles an hour over the speed limit. They stop the car, and the driver, Janne Rajala, a 26-year-old student, produces his driver's license. Officer Ukonaho whips out his Nokia phone and punches in some numbers, including Mr. Rajala's social-security number.

Within seconds, Mr. Rajala's 1999 tax records appear on the phone's tiny screen: his monthly gross income ($975) and his after-tax income ($724). The screen also flashes his fine: $82. Because this amount is below the minimum fine for driving this fast, the officers write a ticket for $106.

"I think it's okay," Mr. Rajala says, adding he would see nothing wrong with paying more if he earned more. "Why not? When you have so much money, it doesn't matter."

Many politicians here apparently agree. Leena Harkimo, a Conservative Party member of the Finnish Parliament and wife of the sports-team owner, tried to introduce a bill last year that would have capped most speeding tickets at a mere $7,825. But only 29 of the 200 members of parliament supported the legislation. "Some people think it's the only way to get the wealthy people to drive slowly or respect the law," she says. "If they're speeding often, let's make a system where they lose their driver's license easily." Traffic fines go to Finland's treasury to be used for general government purposes. Mr. Rytsola, who was issued the $71,400 speeding ticket in October and another $44,100 ticket in August for zigzagging in downtown Helsinki, says he supports income-based penalties, but with a cap on traffic fines. Under the present system, he says, "if you earn enough you shouldn't even touch a car," noting that accidentally driving too fast could cost the richest Finns hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Government officials concede the new system is more about equity than safety. While the average fine has doubled in the past year to about $219, the number of speeding tickets issued is about the same, and there has been no drop in the number of traffic fatalities. "It's a big problem," says Anna Lisa Tarvainen, a senior officer in the Ministry of Transport. Traffic fines are paid to the Ministry of Justice.

Heikki Summala, a professor of traffic psychology at the University of Helsinki, blames the healthy Finnish economy. "Always when the economy is strong, people drive somewhat faster and have somewhat more accidents," he says. "Some people are simply more in a hurry ... and time is money."

Dr. Summala notes that what makes Finland's new fine system possible is the country's extensive computerized databases and advanced cellular-phone technology. Finland, after all, is home to Nokia Corp., the world's largest

cellular-phone-handset maker, and seven out of every 10 Finns use cell phones. However, given the complexity of the new law, it's hard to imagine that anything short of a supercomputer could calculate a Finnish speeding ticket.

Using an overhead projector back at the Interior Ministry, Mr. Wuoma attempts to explain the math. He takes out a piece of paper covered with long equations, which seem more appropriate for a college class in nuclear physics.

The equations start with a motorist's net monthly income. The figure comes into play whenever a driver is caught going at least 12 miles an hour over the posted limit (below that, the fine is a fixed amount, ranging from $63 to $110). To begin, the driver's monthly net income is reduced by 1,500 Finnish marks ($235) and that total is divided by 60. This figure is supposed to represent a person's daily disposable income. Then, for every dependent, such as a child or nonworking spouse, 15 marks is subtracted. But as many as 20 marks may be added depending on the value of the driver's other assets, including real estate.

The final figure, called a day fine, is then multiplied by a number ranging between one and 120, representing the severity of the violation as determined by the traffic officer. For example, a person driving 20 miles an hour over the limit on a highway in good weather might be assessed 12 day fines.

It all seems to make sense to the traffic officers looking on. "It's so simple," says Mr. Ukonaho.
I sounded a bit ludicrous to me when I was reading it but I thought about it and figured it wasn't such a bad idea. I agree with the one woman in the article that tried to get the government to cap it at a certain amount, but other than that it's too bad something like this would never go over in north america.

A $125 speeding ticket up here used to deter me from speeding well enough because that is enough money where I would have felt it if I had to pay that amount. These days $125 is nothing to me and even though I don't speed all that often, if I did I would hardly even worry about getting caught because I don't really care about a hundred bucks. Now imagine assisgning a $125 speeding ticket to someone who's grossing millions of dollars a month and driving a ferrari or something, and expect it to actually deter him from doing it again.

I guess it comes down to whether or not you think financial penalties are there to deter you or just to defray the costs of the police having to monitor the roads. If they are a deterrance then why are they so low for people who make a lot of money?
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Post by Voronwë »

the speeding fine isnt the total cost though to the driver. Insurance premiums will go up substantially for somebody with an expensive car and a poor driving record.
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Re: income based penalties

Post by masteen »

kyoukan wrote:I guess it comes down to whether or not you think financial penalties are there to deter you or just to defray the costs of the police having to monitor the roads. If they are a deterrance then why are they so low for people who make a lot of money?
Either way you look at it, it's a good system. From a deterrance angle, the sliding scale would actually allow the cops to issue a citation that even Puffy would feel. From a cost-coverage angle, it puts more of the burden on the rich speeders while simultaneously giving more money.

This would never pass in the US, cap or no cap. Too many rich lawyers love getting coked up and taking their Porches for a little spin :razz:
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

I'm reminded of Jerry Seinfeld casually removing a parking ticket daily as he leaves a restaurant. He has hundreds of parking tickets, and could care less, he's rich. Make them feel it like the low man. Haha listen to those sissies crying now. Man, I reak of socialism now. afk to take another shower.
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Post by kyoukan »

Voronwë wrote:the speeding fine isnt the total cost though to the driver. Insurance premiums will go up substantially for somebody with an expensive car and a poor driving record.
yeah but that effects everyone equally usually according the value of their car, and it's still not that much of a deterrance if you are raking in the big bucks.

I can't see any millionaire getting bent out of shape over a hundred dollar speeding ticket, but I do see them thinking twice about it if they had to pay $20,000. and even then, that isn't really very much money if you are grossing millions.
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Post by Voronwë »

absolutely true, but let's say i have a nice BMW, but make $100k. (i wish i did :p)

i know somebody who makes $1 M and has that same level of BMW.

now cops could be targeting people preferentially based on the types of cars they drive, because it drives revenue for their departments, and will help with budgets, so the sheriff encourages the troopers to get them rich bastards, etc.

so more middle class people who may drive upper end vehichles find an increased risk of speeding tickets (cause everybody speeds) because the cops are hoping to land a big fish for the fat dollars.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Well then I would think that would be the same type of discrimination as pulling over someone because they are poor, or asian, etc. That's a human part of the equation that must be accounted for by monitoring.
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Post by kyoukan »

well I think if you are speeding and you get radared for it then you deserve to get pulled over and fined for doing it.. if you think you are being picked on because you drive a nice car then you can always stop speeding. 8)

also the article states that there is a window of about 12mph where you can get pulled over and just get issued a standard $120 fine or whatever. its not like finnish cops can radar you going 5mph over the limit and squeeze you for $50,000.
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Post by Voronwë »

sure Krim, but when there is big cash at the other end of it for the local government, it takes on a whole 'nother dimension.

don't even think about driving through backwater Florida in your Mercedes. YOu think a local judge is going to rule in your favor when he could be bringing in $25K to his pissant town's coffers? hell no.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

I'll just beat those backwoods rednecks by hiring my cousin Vinny.
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Post by Sheryl »

no matter how much you cry discrimination, you're still breaking the law, you're speeding. you can say hey wait, that dude in the pinto was speeding, too, but that doesn't make you magically innocent.

i think this idea of varied fines based on income is rather genius.
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Post by Sylvus »

I don't like it, since I believe that I'm probably above the line where I'd end up saving money on this one. :P

But I don't get many tickets, so whatever.

There'd have to be some sort of provision for the guy who is worth like $100M but only pays himself a $25k salary every year. He'd save all kinds of money on tickets if they didn't figure his net worth into it. It's all about tax shelters these days!
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Post by Pahreyia »

Freedom or Equality.... Take your pick.
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Post by Chidoro »

It just seems excessive but then, if you're excessively speeding, you're causing a potential disaster.

I first read it and started getting a tight stomach. Than I remembered that I only received one ticket, and that was from passing on the right while trying to follow a friend up in an area I wasn't familiar with some 11 years ago. It's not the kind of reg that will effect my life so what can I say, let them pay I guess. An insurance premium increase isn't exactly a deterrent so long as the difference in fines doesn't cap at a level "upper middle class" dollars are concerned. Seems silly to penalize me who earns a decent living because the wife and I combine for a decent sum the same as someone who is earning 10 times that amount. Basically, you're just hurting the hard working, yet monatarily in-line people and not even scratching the abundantly wealthy for a similar offence. So instead of hurting the poor people, you're hurting the fiscally wealthy while continuing to live as paycheck to paycheck people.
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Post by Kelshara »

Norway has some of the same system, although it doesn't go this far. On basic tickets you all get the same treatment, but anything that has to be reviewed (automatic radar boxes, anything that goes to court etc) is based on your income.

Also, we have fairly strict laws when it comes to losing your lisence. In a 80 km/h zone, which is the common highway speed, you lose your license if you go.. erh.. either 116 or 121 km/h. Can't remember for sure. Our highest speed limit is 110 km/h btw.

We also have a dot system.. like if you get a speeding ticket you get a dot on your record. I think if you get 5 dots you lose your lisence. Don't quote me on that though, it doesn't really concern me atm since I don't live there so I am not quite up to date on it.
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Post by Truant »

I think it's quite a good idea, personally!
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Post by vn_Tanc »

Freedom or Equality.... Take your pick
I'll take equality thanks. The "freedom" you're referring to is the one that has the silent "for those that can afford it" tacked onto the end.
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Post by Aabidano »

Where I live 10 mph over the posted limit is about what you can get away with in most areas.

It seems to be a fair system to me, I'm glad we don't have it though. The insurance cost increases are a pretty big hit even if you only have one or two citations. People down here seem to just drive without insurance, or license for that matter when the rate gets too high due to excessive tickets, DUI convictions, etc..

What to do? I've no idea, laws aren't a deterrent to people that habitually break the law, including traffic laws.

My last traffic ticket was in '86 in Goose Creek, SC :D
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Post by Silvarel Mistmoon »

Enraged, the executive challenged the amount in court, and a judge lowered it to $9,000. But then the police mentioned that Mr. Kopra had received two previous speeding tickets in 1999 before the new system went into effect. Based on the income he had claimed at the time, each fine was $750. The judge, outraged, imposed additional fines of $38,000 Mr. Kopra remains apoplectic. "This is no constitutionally governed state, this is a land of rhinos!" he says. "This is legalized robbery by police. I'm surprised they're not authorized to shoot you, too. But of course if they shoot you, they cannot get any money out of you."
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Post by Fairweather Pure »

There is nothing more insulting to a wealthy person than to be treated like everyone else.
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Post by Fallanthas »

A penalty serves no purpose if it doesn't hurt.


I think it's a hell of a good idea.

The old celtic cultures used a similar concept, geld I think is the word for it. It was used to refer both to the support a landsman owed his lord and the penalties for certain crimes. Both were based on either the income of the freeholder in question or the status of the person the crime was committed against.


Kinda interesting to see such an ancient principle being applied to a modern day problem.
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Post by masteen »

Fallanthas wrote:The old celtic cultures used a similar concept, geld I think is the word for it. It was used to refer both to the support a landsman owed his lord and the penalties for certain crimes. Both were based on either the income of the freeholder in question or the status of the person the crime was committed against.
Main Entry: 1geld
Pronunciation: 'geld
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old Norse gelda; akin to Old English gelde sterile
Date: 14th century
1 : CASTRATE
2 : to deprive of a natural or essential part <sick of workingmen being gelded of their natural expression -- Atlantic>
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Post by Fallanthas »

Try danegeld, Masteen.
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Post by Xyun »

In my lifetime I have gotten more tickets than I can count. I think the number is definitely above 20 and maybe pretty close to 30. The majority of those came back when I used to deliver pizzas and we had a deadline or the shit was free. Recently, I've only had 2 tickets in the last 2 years and that is excellent for me. Neither was a speeding ticket either. If I was rich I would really hate this law because nothing is funner than treating I-35 like it's Daytona.

Of course since I'm broke, I really don't give a shit. Make 'em rich bastards pay!!
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Post by Ennia »

I'd rather see speeding tickets scale as you accumulate more. Say the first one being normal fine, second one within 3 years it sits on your record being twice or 3 times as much and each next ticket progressively more. This way normal drivers who happen to be speeding for some reason once in a lifetime won't be penalized the same way as folks who like to floor it on a regular basis.

My only speeding ticket was in 98 for doing 42 in 30 zone on an empty 4 lane street with a median in the middle :roll: yeah I was a bit miffed.
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Post by Kylere »

If something like this went into effect in the US I would buy the ugliest beater I could find, pull the exhaust, cut out the door handle and hold it on by a coat hanger, paint it 5 diff colors. No cop is going to lower his average fine and quota by pulling over such a car.
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Post by Ashur »

Great idea, really. Why should the rich have equal penalties under the law as some poor slob? How insulting to the wealthy! They can easily afford more.

But why stop there though?

I think the rich should have to pay more for everything! Why a buck for a loaf of bread? They can afford $100 easy. Hell, what do they care - they're rich.
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Post by Sueven »

Ashur, the two situations are completely unrelated.

The purpose of a fine is to act as a deterrent and a punishment. Having income-based penalties ensures that the fine will be an appropriate and equal deterrent for people from all walks of life.

A loaf of bread is a commodity. It's economic purpose is to sell for whatever price our economy sets for it.
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Post by Chidoro »

Kylere wrote:If something like this went into effect in the US I would buy the ugliest beater I could find, pull the exhaust, cut out the door handle and hold it on by a coat hanger, paint it 5 diff colors. No cop is going to lower his average fine and quota by pulling over such a car.
You betcha. I would never purchase a nice expensive looking car ever again. Unless you can see someone's household income and investment portfolio by doing a plate check, I would be driving the sorriest looking piece of shit on the block
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Or better yet, buy the car of your dreams and don't friggin speed. What a concept.
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Post by Kargyle »

If you think a cop isn't going to pull you over when you are going more than 15 mph over the speed limit, no matter what you drive you are crazy. It doesn't matter if you are in some old beater or a McLaren, a cop is going to stop anyone they see driving that much over the speed limit.
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Post by Pahreyia »

vn_Tanc wrote:
Freedom or Equality.... Take your pick
I'll take equality thanks. The "freedom" you're referring to is the one that has the silent "for those that can afford it" tacked onto the end.
Well, in freedom, you have 0 equality, and so those who have, can afford more. Sadly, that happy medium that everyone's try to go to is being upset by the overwhelming numbers of idiots advocating for extremes on either side.
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Post by Chidoro »

Krimson Klaw wrote:Or better yet, buy the car of your dreams and don't friggin speed. What a concept.
you should amend that and assume it covers all road infractions. In which case, it ain't going to work. A cop can pretty much pull you over whenever they want because chances are you're violating the letter of the law constantly whether you intend to or not.

I'll take my clunker thank you very much
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Post by Sheryl »

Chidoro wrote:you should amend that and assume it covers all road infractions. In which case, it ain't going to work. A cop can pretty much pull you over whenever they want because chances are you're violating the letter of the law constantly whether you intend to or not.
for example?

if you're talking about having a headlight out or something, then yeah, you're going to be pulled over anyway. if you're suggesting cops would make shit up, that's a different story.
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Post by Toshira »

This idea is ass.

A) WAY too much power in he hands of individual officers. How many other threads have there been about corrupt cops? $71,000 ticket ma'am, or you can blow me and I'll rip it up, your choice.

B) Radar guns are notoriously inaccurate, with the potential for deviation sometimes in excess of 10 MPH.

C) Spedometers are not always accurate. You think you're going 40, hey, you're going 42, grats, $5,000 fine.

Yes, tickets are supposed to act as a deterrent, but they are penalties for committing misdameanors. The amounts in the examples are Draconian.
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Post by Chidoro »

Ever pass someone on the right while they are trying to make a left turn into a store? Ever get stuck in the intersection trying to make a left but the light changes on you? Ever drive at the flow of traffic going 10 miles per hour over the speed limit? Got those headlights on while the wipers are on? You positive you're leaving 3 full car lengths between yourself and the person in front of you even though you're only going 30? How about coming to a complete stop at an intersection with a sign? Change lanes w/out signaling? Stopping before crossing railroad tracks? Ever block the box?

Do I need to continue? They don't need to make anything up and if you read my post again, I never even suggested that. You're fucking up to the letter of the law all of the time whether you mean to or not.
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Post by Fairweather Pure »

Got those headlights on while the wipers are on?
I believe you meant "Do you turn on your headlights when you turn on your windshield wipers?".

Yes, that was a law in Arkansas.
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Post by Sylvus »

It is in Michigan, too, Fairweather.

I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for it though.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

If driving is turning into too much of a chore due to the unfair Nazi regime, take the friggin bus. Now quit your pissin' n moanin' ya sissies.
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Post by Sheryl »

Chidoro wrote:Ever pass someone on the right while they are trying to make a left turn into a store? Ever get stuck in the intersection trying to make a left but the light changes on you? Ever drive at the flow of traffic going 10 miles per hour over the speed limit? Got those headlights on while the wipers are on? You positive you're leaving 3 full car lengths between yourself and the person in front of you even though you're only going 30? How about coming to a complete stop at an intersection with a sign? Change lanes w/out signaling? Stopping before crossing railroad tracks? Ever block the box?

Do I need to continue? They don't need to make anything up and if you read my post again, I never even suggested that. You're fucking up to the letter of the law all of the time whether you mean to or not.
i guess i did misread your first post, but for whatever reason, to me that sounded like you're saying a cop doesn't even need to see you fuck up to pull you over, because chances are you're fucking up in some way he can't see. i've had cops threaten to write me a ticket for driving without shoes or having something hanging from my rearview mirror, addresses don't match on insurance and driver's license, etc.

but if you're breaking a traffic law, you're breaking a traffic law. you're right in saying that people break them all the time, and that people in h2's are going to get cited more than people in clunkers, but that doesn't undo the fact that you're breaking a traffic law, regardless of what you drive. and do you seriously think you're going to be fined $25,000 for changing lanes without a signal? the fines vary on the severity of the offense as well as your income.

and considering almost nobody is ticketed for that crap as it is, wouldn't they have to hire like eleventy billion more cops or something?

point taken though - if cops were to have a minimum quota of fines to dish out, they'd most definitely target nicer cars. so yeah, if you want to be able to break more traffic laws and be pulled over less, buy a pinto.

i guess what i'm wondering is, why don't people just familiarize themselves with the laws and stop breaking them? judging from the list you rattled off, you KNOW what the traffic laws are, yet you choose to break them. if fines were scaled like this, would it motivate you to stop? if everybody just decides to buy a piece of shit car, they're just going to start pulling those over, too.
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Post by Ashur »

I understand it's to act as a deterrent, but $71,000 ffs!!! for SPEEDING!?!?

Yeah, OK. I'll never go to Finland. Which I'm sure they are fine with as well.
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Post by kyoukan »

What is 71k to someone grossing millions or hundreds of millions of dollars a year? that's right, about as much as $125 is to someone making 40k. In fact mathematically they are getting a deal.

It's stupid to fine a multi millionaire $100 and expect that to deter them.
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Post by Skogen »

kyoukan wrote:What is 71k to someone grossing millions or hundreds of millions of dollars a year? that's right, about as much as $125 is to someone making 40k. In fact mathematically they are getting a deal.

It's stupid to fine a multi millionaire $100 and expect that to deter them.
Yep. A guy I met at a party back home (san francisco) who I knew was loaded (a Yahoo! founder) did give a rats ass about fines. He said he used to speed along in the carpool alone lane to beat traffic, and didnt care if he got a ticket. it got to the point where his license was threatened until he finally gave up on it.
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Post by Zaelath »

kyoukan wrote:What is 71k to someone grossing millions or hundreds of millions of dollars a year? that's right, about as much as $125 is to someone making 40k. In fact mathematically they are getting a deal.

It's stupid to fine a multi millionaire $100 and expect that to deter them.
That's exactly the point of the system. I don't necessarily believe speeding by 10 MPH is a problem (and it's a fact that speed limits are set knowing that the average traffic will be slightly faster than what's posted) but it does make more sense to have higher fines and it's ultimate effect is minimal to say the least. If you're so rich as to actually be concerned by this theory, then stop wasting your valuable time reading message boards, you could be out cornholing the poor.

I'd much rather the cops hunted down the tailgating retards that seem to comprise 90% of the people who drive on MN highways (can't speak for the rest of the US, but it's probably much the same) and seem to have no understanding of physics at all. They're much the same as the people who think the limit should be raised to 100MPH because if they have a nice flat, dry road their car has "no problems" at that speed... until you do have a tiny problem and your chance of survival plummets compared to having an accident at 70MPH
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Post by noel »

As alluded to in the opening paragraph of Zaelath's post, there are a lot of people on this thread who are under the mistaken impression that law enforcement wants speeding to stop. Police love the fact that 90% of the drivers on the freeways are exceeding the speed limit. Target rich environments make it extremely easy to pull people over who may or may not be suspected of doing something more serious. I'm only talking about speeding, not reckless driving, drunk driving, etc.
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Post by Chidoro »

Sunserae wrote: i guess what i'm wondering is, why don't people just familiarize themselves with the laws and stop breaking them? judging from the list you rattled off, you KNOW what the traffic laws are, yet you choose to break them. if fines were scaled like this, would it motivate you to stop? if everybody just decides to buy a piece of shit car, they're just going to start pulling those over, too.
Well, I can tell you that the people who cause the most problems in NJ are the ones driving too slow, not passing on the right, etc etc because they fustrate the people around them. There's so much damn traffic in north jersey, really, that only long island, la county, and a few others could probably relate. You fustrate masses like this, and forget it, it's mass hysteria. It really is that bad. People choose to break them because it helps the flow of traffic.

Note, I only have had one ticket in 17 years of driving and that was from following a friend who was doing something illegal and I didn't want to get lost (fuck you Roxbury for that). It's a pretty damn good record to be honest. The only reason to hook up w/ a junker is, why become a target? For example, when I was in high school, I had to drive through a speed trap in an old town to get there. My father told me to never wear my letter jacket while driving there becaue you'll be doing something wrong (because everyone does something wrong) and they'll target you sooner than the 45 year old business man in a hurry. I never wore my letter jacket and I never got a ticket. I think I was the only person in our senior class not to get one. Why, because I didn't make myself a target. So junker it is
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Post by kyoukan »

Aranuil wrote:As alluded to in the opening paragraph of Zaelath's post, there are a lot of people on this thread who are under the mistaken impression that law enforcement wants speeding to stop. Police love the fact that 90% of the drivers on the freeways are exceeding the speed limit. Target rich environments make it extremely easy to pull people over who may or may not be suspected of doing something more serious. I'm only talking about speeding, not reckless driving, drunk driving, etc.
ask any cop what their least favorite job is and 99% of them will tell you that it is speed trapping. if people stopped speeding entirely the entire law enforcement industry would throw a party. the measly hundred buck fine doesn't even come close to recouping the cost of man hours, equipment, court time and administrative duties. not to mention the absolutely retarded amount of time wasted looking for soccer moms cranking their SUVs up to 90mph instead of looking for actual crimes taking place.
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Post by noel »

Oh I agree that work is hard and whatnot... in all professions, and I'm sure the police wouldn't mind if they didn't have to pull people over. I don't really understand what your post has to do with the discussion in the thread. An officer's like or dislike for the laws he has to enforce is not relevant to the cost of the fines.

Traffic citations for non-dangerous scenarios (reckless driving, drunk driving, unsafe turns, running stop signs, etc.) are an excellent way for a police officer to legitimately pull someone over, and have an opportunity for them to detect something far more nefarious.

The fines are meant to be a detterent, not a punishment. Obviously, it differs from state to state, but in the state of California, 5 speeding tickets in an 18 month period means you get your license taken away regardless of your income.
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Post by kyoukan »

Aranuil wrote:I don't really understand what your post has to do with the discussion in the thread.
what?
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Post by Xzion »

shit my dad would have had lots of fun in finland when i was 16

fucking terrible
and of course cops wouldnt be biased to pulling over that nice new lexus convertable over there at all...going half a mile over the speed limit
several thousand fo a speeding ticket? come the fuck on...but the rich have more money, why not just fuck them over, stupid greedy basterds deserve it right?, all that money would go towards Bush_war_03 anyways
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