VeeshanVault

Ok, so a friend of mine & his wife were taking Kung Fu lessons. They started to get a bit upset that the dojo, or whatever you call it, was charging them all of these various fees that were nickel & diming them to death. So they said something about it. Here is what ensued:

First, the email to me from my friend about it:

Quyen and I have been taking kung fu for a little while now and mostly
enjoying it. However we just got an e-mail today and learned that we
were kicked out.

We had voiced complaints about all the miscellaneous fees that we were
being charged: $40 for a belt test, $40-50 for each weapon, $75 for a
4-hour festival, $20 for the "privilige" of flying the Grandmaster out
to San Jose. Additionally we weren't quite respectful and "holy" enough
in our treatment of the Grandmaster; amongst other things we called him
'Te' instead of 'Grandmaster Te' and expressed disinterest in testing
in front of him.

Together this was enough to trigger some e-mails between our instructor
and Quyen. As a result, the instructor considered our comments a direct
challenge to Grandmaster Te and thus a challenge to the whole school.
So in order to protect the safety of the students and at the same time
our own safety, we've been kicked out and told to never return. He also
said that we no longer exist to him. Additionally he is informing the
entire Shao-Lin chain of schools and informing them to never take us as
students.

Guess our typical bluntness went a bit far and was enough to get us
blackballed.

Next up, getting kicked out of Twai Kwan Do.


Now, here is the email from the master kicking them out (that he mentioned above)


> David,
>
>
> You're a nut case. Get yourself some counseling. Thank
> your for sending us the refund via mail.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Quyen Kazmierczak
>
>
> --- MDST <mdst@cscsanjose.com> wrote:
> > Dear Quyen and Mike,
> >
> > In the martial arts students show respect to the
> > GrandMaster of the art they
> > are studying due to the Martial Skill they have
> > achieved. It is a sign of
> > Extreme disrespect to any art to call the
> > GrandMaster founder of a system by
> > their last name only or to say challenging comments
> > about him or any Master.
> >
> > Your comments last night are considered a challenge
> > by everyone in the
> > school/art.(Your previous email is also considered a
> > challenge) Since this
> > is the martial arts, your challenge and your
> > comments indicates that you
> > feel that you can fight the GrandMaster and that you
> > have the skill of him.
> > Some of us realize that your just being insulting
> > because you are really
> > unhappy with the poor progress you have made in our
> > school as students,
> > while others who have heard what you said consider
> > it a physical challenge.
> >
> > All instructors have been notified that since you
> > have made this challenge
> > it is considered a physical threat to all students.
> > (if you challenge the
> > GrandMaster you challenge everyone in the art).
> >
> > Effective as of this writing, all of your rank has
> > been revoked, and you are
> > expelled from the school forever. I am also
> > notifying all the schools in the
> > country (don't worry I won't forward your emails to
> > them as that would put
> > me at your level) so you will not be allowed to
> > study this art in this
> > lifetime.
> >
> > Although the school owes you nothing as all fees
> > paid are non refundable and
> > you knew this in advance, I am going to write a
> > check to you and mail it to
> > your house with a refund in hopes that you can use
> > the money for some
> > psychiatric counseling for your obvious problems.
> >
> > All the instructors have been notified that if you
> > attempt to come to the
> > school you will not be allowed access (for your
> > safety to all the students
> > you have offended) and the police will be called to
> > have you removed.
> >
> > From this point in time I disavow all knowledge of
> > your existence for this
> > life time, email filters have been put in place and
> > none of your responses
> > to this email will be read if they happen to get by
> > the filters.
> >
> > You have gone out of your way to make this situation
> > the way it is, you
> > couldn't have possibly read our student manual.
> >
> > I feel truly sorry for you; you both will have to
> > live with yourselves for
> > the rest of your lives, I couldn't think of any
> > worse situation than that.
> > Do yourself a favor don't study martial arts, with
> > your attitude things
> > could get much worse than just getting kicked out of
> > a school.
> >
> > Master Theroff
> > Instructors and Sr. Students and Students of the
> > Chinese Shao-lin Center San Jose

no fortune cookie for you!

Tell them to take akido or judo if they really want to learn self-defense.

"$40 for a belt test, $40-50 for each weapon, $75 for a 4-hour festival, $20 for the "privilige" of flying the Grandmaster out to San Jose."

Usually belt tests will cost $25-50.

Weapon seminars aren't normally included with your usual fees and if you keep the weapon then definately not.

I'm not sure what was included int he 4 hour festival but I can see some justification for it...as long as he attended and the cost was mentioned beforehand.

I just don't understand why he was automatically billed to fly the grandmaster there....that's crazy unless you volunteer.

"Effective as of this writing, all of your rank has been revoked"

OMG no!!! lol.

When I took martial arts I took them from my university as pass/fail credits (that didn't count towards my major obviously) I had quite a few of these under my belt come graduation...around 10-15 credits worth of bulshit fun stuff. Rifle/pistol marksmanship, campjng, rapelling, archery, karate, tae kwon do, weightlifting...

Anyway my instructor told me the belt test was $25 and that it was a fairly low rate. I asked him if I had to pay the belt test fee to pass/fail the class...he said no...I said then do I still have to take the belt test...he said yes, in order to pass the class you must pass the belt test, but I won't get my offical belt or rank.

Anyway....6 0r 7 belt tests in Shorin Ryu Karate and 3 in Tae Kwon Do later...

I'm techincally white belt in both...

Fuck paying money for the stupid belts, I just wanted to learn...I'm a brown belt in Karate (I forget how many stripes) and Orange in Tae Kwon Do if I remember right.

I don't see what the big deal is. Part of learning a martial art (especially one as mystical and respected as Shaolin Kung Fu) is learning the history and cultual backgrounds, and the customs as well.

If they didn't want to address their teachers properly, perhaps they shouldn't have signed up in the first place.

As far as the fees, well -- it's California, what do you expect? They seem a bit expensive, but so are most things out there so I'm not really suprised.

Xouqoa wrote:I don't see what the big deal is. Part of learning a martial art (especially one as mystical and respected as Shaolin Kung Fu) is learning the history and cultual backgrounds, and the customs as well.

If they didn't want to address their teachers properly, perhaps they shouldn't have signed up in the first place.

As far as the fees, well -- it's California, what do you expect? They seem a bit expensive, but so are most things out there so I'm not really suprised.

Big difference between learning the customs, and actually believing in them, and making it part of your belief system....to the extreme!
So basically what you are saying is not to even bother to learn kung fu if you do not also want to partake in their belief system!?

I think they should have addressed the teacher in the proper way, as Grandmaster XXX, versus just calling him by his last name, yes.

That is what the root of the problem was, correct?

Shoalin Kung Fu is a lot different than your normal run of the mill Karate or Tae Kwon Do class. If I were taking it (and I was going to, but it's too expensive for me atm) then I would respect my masters and follow their customs and beliefs when I am at the school for learning purposes.

If Kwonryu sees this thread, I'm sure he can explain it in more depth since he's actually been to the Shoalin Temple in China.

Xouqoa wrote:I think they should have addressed the teacher in the proper way, as Grandmaster XXX, versus just calling him by his last name, yes.

That is what the root of the problem was, correct?

Shoalin Kung Fu is a lot different than your normal run of the mill Karate or Tae Kwon Do class. If I were taking it (and I was going to, but it's too expensive for me atm) then I would respect my masters and follow their customs and beliefs when I am at the school for learning purposes.

If Kwonryu sees this thread, I'm sure he can explain it in more depth since he's actually been to the Shoalin Temple in China.

But does it explain flying off the handle the way he did?
It just sounds to me it more of the masters ego talking, than tradition.

Yeah, I think his reaction was a bit severe - the notifying other schools of them and the whole police bit anyway.

I don't know this guy or anything, but if he's like off the boat Chinese and has been a monk or trained in Kung Fu all his life - then I would say he's genuinely offended by their actions, and his reaction isn't quite as unjustified.

If he is American-born, I'd say he probably is just being a cocky asshole and he's way over-reacting.

But still, they should have addressed the teacher as instructed, imo. =)

He might have over reacted, but as xou says, this isn't your ordinary run of the mill karate. This is Shaolin kung fu, and if you can't follow their customs and beliefs, then you should study another form of martial arts that is a bit less severe or more westernized.

I am in no way saying your friends are in the wrong, just saying that maybe they should have researched what they were doing a bit more thoroughly before starting.

I don't think he wanted you to adopt his beleif system as your own.

First off it isn't a religion...

Secondly...I don't think he gives a crap once you do after you leave the building.

He just wants you to respect tradition while in his establishment.

-------------------
However I still think charging students for the grandmasters airplane ticket without asking is crazy.

And I don't think revoking your offical belt rank is very scary.

I was speaking more about his email to my friend, and not how my friend addressed him. Telling him he needs pyshcogical help?

Like:
"Your comments last night are considered a challenge
by everyone in the school/art.(Your previous email is also considered achallenge) Since this is the martial arts, your challenge and your comments indicates that you feel that you can fight the GrandMaster and that you have the skill of him."

WTF!?

and

"Although the school owes you nothing as all fees paid are non refundable and you knew this in advance, I am going to write a check to you and mail it to your house with a refund in hopes that you can use the money for some psychiatric counseling for your obvious problems."

!!!????

Did you even read the whole thing, or just skim the beginning of it?

Yeah, the comments like that lead me to believe he's just a stupid hotshot with a superiority complex. =)

Both sides were wrong, imo.

what exactly was said by your friend in previous e-mails and phone calls? was it just a series of inquiries about fees and whatnot, or were they assholes? if they pissed the instructor off, even though that e-mail was retarded and melodramatic, i can understand why he would kick them out. if it was simply hey man, why am i paying to put you on a plane? that's another story. then the guy is a cack.

Sunserae wrote:what exactly was said by your friend in previous e-mails and phone calls? was it just a series of inquiries about fees and whatnot, or were they assholes? if they pissed the instructor off, even though that e-mail was retarded and melodramatic, i can understand why he would kick them out. if it was simply hey man, why am i paying to put you on a plane? that's another story. then the guy is a cack.

All it was were inquiries about the payments. He got ticked at the mere act of questioning it, and 'challenging" the master!

Shonuff: WHOSE tha masta!?
Lackies: SHONUFF!
Shonuff: WHOSE tha masta!?
Lackies: SHONUFF!
Shonuff: Yeeeaaa!

Shonuff: WHOSE tha masta!?
Lackies: SHONUFF!
Shonuff: WHOSE tha masta!?
Lackies: SHONUFF!
Shonuff: Yeeeaaa!

I am the master.

first, we're not getting the whole story.

Considering your friends threw a line in their email sarcastically saying that they're next step was to get kicked out of tae kwon do classes...i'm going to go ahead and assume they DID act out of line. Assumption based on the shitty attitude they just presented.

From my experience, the older someone gets, the more of a prick they are when anyone tries to teach them anything, even if they signed up and payed for it.

//edit After reading it a second time...your friends sound like major shit heads...it's common fucking sense you address your elders, and superiors with respect. Especially someone of the caliber of grandmaster. The response email, after being told the address was blocked, was rediculous. I do not pity your friends at all. As to the fees, they may be a little high, but not out of the question. Then again, you don't sign up for shaolin kungfu expecting cheap service. Shaolin isn't the walmart of martial arts.

I would have loved to see the grandmaster get off his chair, stand up and be like, okay, lets go bitch, cmon pussy *shove* what the fuck you got?

I too believe that you should respect your elders and learn the system if you decide to study it. But to me it reads like the guy made a simple mistake and the teacher blew it all out of proportion, when that happened Skogen's friend retailated... understandable.

I personally think the fact that "he no longer exists" is freakin' halarious, lol.

Marb

I'd respond but as they no longer exist to me I am indifferent to this thread.

They would have completely deserved an ass kicking. Its just stupid to disrespect an entire school like that. Unless you're friends are retarded, they must have had some remote idea of the Shaolin philosophy and how they operate.

Boot to the head!

No Kung Fu for you - one lifetime!

While you probably should have been a little more respectful, they should have just put you in line. As far as the fees, maybe you should have asked for a schedule of fees before you signed up. As far as everything else, it just seems that they are a bad match for you personality wise. From what I've seen many martial arts schools are pretty sleezy, and many are pretty good. This seems to be of the more sleezy type. If you really want to study Kung Fu more, I bet you can, you just should find another school. If you find that you are blacklisted, it means they associate with the sleezy school, and they suck anyways. But, if you want to take a cool Martial Art, check out Jeet Kune Do (the Martial Art that Bruce Lee invented). That's all about using your body to it's full potential, and not wasting energy. They don't have a belt system either.

-=Lohrno

"Guess our typical bluntness "

That one line actually did have some impact with me.

Had to go see if there was a website for the school and there is. Don't know who's at fault here since as people say not all the facts are out there. Personally I think the problem is that today in our modern world people don't take things seriously and when they run into people who do take things seriously friction happens. I mean how many people today study martial arts as a martial art and not a sport?

Sounds like a pretty americanized version of shao lin if they are using a belt system and testing.

Our school (Northern style), we get a sash after you learn your first form, and thats it.

We pay a flat monthly membership, and includes as many classes and as much as you want to learn.

Crav wrote:I mean how many people today study martial arts as a martial art and not a sport?

I too wish to boot some head!

I've always hated the belt system.

Sueven wrote:I've always hated the belt system.

Yeah it's essentially a bigger dick thing... Unless you're looking to become someone's bodyguard and want it for a resume maybe?

-=Lohrno

I would never pay for a belt and have never paid for a belt in my whole life!

I use a belt to hold up my pants, that is all!

Then again, having a martial arts gym in the west (Europe, USA etc) will cost OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of rent, so OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS have to charge for more than the monthly fee to make a living.

To me, belt hierarchy is like politics.

I would recommend the people in the example above to get a personal trainer instead of clubs/gyms.

In a Master / Student relationship, The student must show the Master OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of respect if he wants to progress in the teachings. Doing it half-heartedly will not get you far though.

What is their goal with their training?

Self-defence, Competition, Body Excercise or a Way of Life?

Are they interested in Forms, the Spiritual Way as well?

Or Just Kick Booty?

If Kick Booty, then Boxing works well! No Belts there either.

Perhaps they should try Billy Blanks Tae Bo? Good Training, will get them fit in no time. Aerobics is good too.

-