The Matrix Has You

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Adelrune Argenti
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Post by Adelrune Argenti »

Fairweather Pure wrote:Wait a minute...

Neo is the Kwisatz Haderach?!?
I think that sums it up nicely.
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Post by kyoukan »

I don't really know what to think about this movie. On one hand it's really cool and fun to watch but on the other hand the philosophy behind it is pretty fucking lowbrow (ooh causality welcome to high school philosophy) and they didn't really do anything special effects-wise that I haven't seen in the first matrix or other movies.. except the freeway scene was pretty cool.

I have a few chinese friends and as a result I've seen a whole lot of HK action flicks, and the whole invincible man in black w/ sunglasses kung fu superhero that dodges bullets and throws people through brick walls doesn't make me wet anymore either.

Agent Smith was totally wasted. He could have not been in the movie at all and all his scenes could have not existed and it wouldn't have effected the film a whit. Likewise that italian slut that warner bros. is whoring as the next female superstar. What is she sucking Joel Silver's cock? She was in what, one scene? And all she did was piss off trinity and then "lead" the gang to the keymaker. The fucking Great Gazoo could have popped up over Neo's shoulder and said something pithy and lead them to the keymaker and it would have made about as much sense. Then she shoots one guard and lets the other go so he can go warn the french dude and have another excuse for a fight scene (this one in a room full of weapons! who wrote this movie a 14 year old fan fiction writer?). She has had more screen time on entertainment tonight in the last week than she did in the fucking film, and her character was WORTHLESS.

Gay.

Also, I don't know who composed the music but jesus fucking christ FIRE HIM AND NEVER LET HIM NEAR A TREBLECLEF AGAIN FOR THE GOOD OF THE WORLD. The music in the first fight scene with all the agent smiths sounded like a fucking chase scene in starsky and hutch. I was almost laughing at how utterly cheesy and weak it was. I kept expecting to see big cartoon ZOK! and POW! after every hard punch like the old batman show.

Other than that it was alright though!
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Post by Acies »

You are really angsty Kyou.

Some clarification IMO:

The Bros. are attempting to make a point regarding the similarity between the machines (Agent Smith (Yes, I know he is not "technically" a machine)) and humans (Neo).
You see, man made the machines and then started executing them, they formed their own nation (Alpha One) in Iraq and made cool computer tech which was ruining the American/Eurpoean/Asian Economies.
Their ambassadors went to the U.N. for peace with smiley robot faces and were butchered, etc.
Machines fought back, we said screw you and torched the sky, they started to kill us all and then harvest us. Enter present day matrix.
The similarity is introduced in the fact that the Machines are as much so the killers now as the humans who earned their contempt by slaughtering indescriminately.

On another pont, Agent Smith is a requisite for the movie due mainly to the fact that he is pushing to become more human, albeit violently. While it is not shown openly with neon lights in Matrix: Reloaded, his part in the story is just as importnat and profound as Neo's, as he becomes somthing more than a machine, imo.

The girl who betrayed the French speaker, who cares? Why do you feel the need to dwell on her for a paragraph? She likely has a role in Revolutions, and if not she was a filler, big deal. Did you also complain about the Woman in the Red Dress in The Matrix?

To be honest, I can't speak of the music as I know not what a trebleclef is, but the score meshed well with the visuals, inparticular during the Neo vs Smiths fight.

I liked the movie, much more to it than first meets the eye.
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Post by Zamtuk »

I have to agree with Kyoukan in the sense of the philosophy. It seemed like they knew that people were expecting to see a huge philosophical blow out, but couldn't possibly give them anything new that could top the first Matrix. So a lot of the philosophy (save the architect scene) did seem thrown in there for shits and giggles.
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Post by kyoukan »

wow acies you are really deep and profound and have discovered hidden meanings in the movie that I could only dare to dream of!
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Post by Acies »

You know I only do it cause I imagine you with a nice ass and pouty lips ;)
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Post by Korell »

I was reading most of the responses... and then my ears started to bleed.

Good lord, it may have been the fact that I was still slightly intoxicated and not of sobber mindset... BUT I criticized almost the whole thing and found multiple spots where I could bitch.

I can say I had more fun the last week and a half away from my computer playing FF3 on my Super Nintendo.. and I will. Damn FF3 owns.

Beginning scene, which kept fucking repeating itself, over used the damn Bullet-Time effect. Its a good effect when used.. as a fucking effect. Not the default film speed. When a good amount of time is spent watching Bullet-Time, it loses its coolness effect. Thats one of my complaints..
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Post by Drustwyn »

Harry Knowles at http://www.aintitcoolnews.com posted two quite decent reviews. Check them out if you get the chance.

I think his best point was about Neo being able to 'destroy code' at the end of the first movie...but never does it in the second one at all. At the first movie's end, Neo could do anything and said that he was going to teach people how to do those things.. I didn't see Morpheus or Trinity flying around like supahman.
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Post by Etasi »

I know I said I was going to stop posting on this thread, but I can't help it. I'm totally fine with people not liking the movie, and can see plenty of reasons why people would have problems with it.

However, if you're going to dislike it, at least understand what you're talking about. The whole reason Neo doesn't destroy anyone's code in Reloaded is because of what happened when he did it the first time. "Destroying" Smith actually freed him from some of his constraints and allowed him to duplicate himself infinitely. Why on earth would Neo risk doing the same thing again if he had no idea how it would affect himself or the Matrix?

As for teaching people to fly, you need to go back and watch the end of the first movie again. Neo never, ever claimed that he was going to teach any of his compatriots how to do what he can do in the Matrix. That wouldn't even be possible- as we find out in the second movie, his abilities are the result of a systemic anomaly that affects him and him alone. All he said was that he was going to show the people still in the Matrix what he could do in order to free their minds. They allude to this in the second movie when Morpheus says "we've freed more minds in the past six months than in the past six years."

And Harry Knowles is a fanboy retard. How can anyone take that guy seriously? I mean, he expected to see werewolves in Reloaded and was pissed off when there weren't any. Seriously, wtf.
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Post by kyoukan »

As for teaching people to fly, you need to go back and watch the end of the first movie again. Neo never, ever claimed that he was going to teach any of his compatriots how to do what he can do in the Matrix. That wouldn't even be possible- as we find out in the second movie, his abilities are the result of a systemic anomaly that affects him and him alone.
I think the architect was lying to him.

Also there was that kid in the first movie that could bend spoons with his mind because he understands the philosophy that since nothing is actually real he can manipulate it at will. That suggested to me that although Neo might be the saviour I don't see why other people couldn't have superhuman powers beyond what operators can download into them.
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Post by Etasi »

Well there's also the question of mental capacity. For whatever reason, there seem to be different levels of skill in manipulating the matrix, otherwise it seems like you'd see people who are as powerful as Morpheus doing some of what Neo can do. Regardless, at the end of the first movie, Neo believed in the theory which held that there can be only one person with the capability to do certain things in the Matrix, so it makes little sense to assume that his intention was to teach other people how to do what he does.
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Post by kyoukan »

who asked you, frenchy!!
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Post by Etasi »

Omg, sending my secret ninja attack squad after you for that one!
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Post by kyoukan »

is he hot 8)
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Post by Fallanthas »

Sat through Reloaded again last night.

I found at least two huge, gaping holes in the line of reasoning the Architect feeds Neo.

Dunno, the more I pay attention to the film and the supposed storyline,t he more it is turning into an action film. Fun fight scenes, not much substance.
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Post by Aaeamdar »

I found at least two huge, gaping holes in the line of reasoning the Architect feeds Neo.
Which for no discernable reason, you decided not to bother enumerating. Well, thanks. Now that I know the number of huge gaping holes is 2, I'll be sure to look for them.
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Post by vn_Tanc »

I broadly agree with Kyou's critique above. The film was curiously unengaging and just plain not cool enough. Why they used that shitola music in the Smith fight scene instead of the storming breakbeat track that backed it in the trailer is a mystery.

By the end it had pulled _just_ enough interest out of me to make me keen to see the finale but overall I thought the film was very badly put together and came far too close to disappearing up it's own arse (instead of kicking everybody elses) for comfort.
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Post by Fallanthas »

Ok Dar.


1. Why would Neo, who got to the position he is currently in because of, as Morpheus put it, a propensity for diobedience, blindly swallow what the Architecht has to say? There isn't a damn thing anywhere in the entire conversation that even remotely resembles proof.

2. If Neo does not "return to the source" there will be a cataclysmic system crash that will kill every person attached to the Matrix, right?

What happens to the machines if the system dumps?

More specifically, what happens to the machines headed to destroy Zion?
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Post by vn_Tanc »

Returning to The Source isn't enough! He will need to go on heros quests for "The Compiler", "The Linker" and most devious of all, "The Makefile"

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Post by Sylvus »

Fallanthas wrote:2. If Neo does not "return to the source" there will be a cataclysmic system crash that will kill every person attached to the Matrix, right?

What happens to the machines if the system dumps?

More specifically, what happens to the machines headed to destroy Zion?
I think they are separate systems. The machines built the matrix and hooked the people up to it. Some of the machines monitor the matrix, but I can't see why they would all be connected to it, specifically those that were tasked with wiping out (what we are to believe is) a collection of people living outside of the matrix.
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Post by Etasi »

I don't think we fully know what Neo's reaction to the Architect is. Hell, maybe he doesn't believe him, because he doesn't choose to reboot the system and save everyone connected to the matrix. All he knows for sure is that the most important thing in his life, Trinity, is about to be gone, and he has to stop that. Hence his choice. Afterwards, he may doubt what the Architect says, who knows. We haven't seen enough of what happens after that conversation to know how he felt about it either way.

The Architect said, "there are levels of existence we are willing to accept" or something along those lines, ie, they are willing to deal with the consequences of the matrix crashing. They have to be- the anomaly that arises in the form of the One isn't something they can get rid of. They can hope to control it, but they're not so stupid as to assume that they will always be able to control it and as such have planned for the possible failure of the matrix.

We can assume that the matrix doesn't crash right away if Neo decides not to return to the source when he talks to the architect, probably because, as I said, the machines were prepared for the possibility of a system crash, so they would have built in some extra time to prepare for that occurence when they had the Oracle and the Keymaker tell Neo when he has to get to the source. It seems likely that part of that extra time would be dedicated to wiping out Zion, if the Architect is indeed telling the truth.
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Post by Fallanthas »

The reference to accepting a lesser state of survival ties back to the fact that the machines are deriving their power to opreate from the humans in the power plant.


That's what I meant when I asked "what happens?". The light bulb goes out and all those machines headed for Zion just blithely continue to do their thing?

Returning to the source is an obvious win for the machines. Even if the Architect is being truthful about Neo being the sixth iteration of The One, where is the percentage in allowing the machines to take a path they are already familiar with?
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Post by Zamtuk »

What is the Matrix?
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Post by Apollyon »

I hope to see it this weekend!
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Post by sarlen »

Apollyon wrote:I hope to see it this weekend!
Same here.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Neo already proved the architect wrong "she is going to die and there is nothing you can do about it"

she lives. If he proved him wrong on that count, there is hope for zon, and it is not "written in stone" as the architect would have him believe. As soon as he saved trinitys life (counter to what the architect said), I think he knew Zion stood a chance.

Although Trin did indeed die, architect inferred that Neo had to accept it, mocking humanities *hope*. Neo chose otherwise and saved her.
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Post by vn_Tanc »

And then electrocuted some machines IRL!! Wtf is THAT all about!?

I expect it's part of the same thread that allowed Smith to download himself into a human by overwriting the guy inside the matrix then jacking out.
So we have people bringing parts of the Matrix out into IRL with them. oo-er /boggle etc
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Post by Aaeamdar »

Neo did not prove The Architect wrong. At least not yet. What The Architect meant was Choose door #1, Trinity dies immediately, but you go to the Source and Xion is reborn. Choose door #2, you might be able to save Trinity from her immediate death, but Xion is being destroyed along with every human still conected to the Matrix. Either way, Trinity dies.

Also, it seems clear to me that Neo chose the door The Architect intended him to choose. You should re-watch or read that conversation.
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Post by Acies »

Aaeamdar wrote:Neo did not prove The Architect wrong. At least not yet. What The Architect meant was Choose door #1, Trinity dies immediately, but you go to the Source and Xion is reborn. Choose door #2, you might be able to save Trinity from her immediate death, but Xion is being destroyed along with every human still conected to the Matrix. Either way, Trinity dies.

Also, it seems clear to me that Neo chose the door The Architect intended him to choose. You should re-watch or read that conversation.

Hmmm this made me think.
What if he did indeed return to the source, then left? They state in the movie that the source is the "machine" mainframe, not the Matrix mainframe.
Now being he is the one, what if he was able to leave a portion of his subconscious there, in the machine mainframe? He could be able to shut down the machines with some sort of connection placed there.

A possiblity.
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Post by Cotto »

Girlfriend and I just got back from seeing Matrix 2.

We liked it..kinda...ish. Apart from the dickheads behind us talking like spide's the whole way through, everything seemed okay. I'm not sure what it was, but their felt like there was, something Big missing from the film. Action, effects and such were all superb, but I cant avoid the large gaping hole that was just 'there' in the film.

That was pretty much it, save for some reason Pearl & Dean (Im not sure if all of you know about this advertising company) decided to play nearly 1/2hour of ad's before the film.
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Post by Aaeamdar »

1. Why would Neo, who got to the position he is currently in because of, as Morpheus put it, a propensity for diobedience, blindly swallow what the Architecht has to say? There isn't a damn thing anywhere in the entire conversation that even remotely resembles proof.
How is this a "plot hole?" Where is your indication that Neo blindly swallowed what the Architect told him, and what would a "propensity for disobedience" have to do with what Neo believed (as opposed to what Neo chose).
2. If Neo does not "return to the source" there will be a cataclysmic system crash that will kill every person attached to the Matrix, right?

What happens to the machines if the system dumps?

More specifically, what happens to the machines headed to destroy Zion?
These are not plot holes either, they are questions that (along with whether The Architect was full of it or not) will likely be answered in the next movie (or possibly left unaswered, except for the question about the machiens heading toward Xion). But basically, your "plot hole" amounts to the failure to immediately role film on Matrix Revolutions at the end of MR.
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Post by Fallanthas »

How is this a "plot hole?" Where is your indication that Neo blindly swallowed what the Architect told him, and what would a "propensity for disobedience" have to do with what Neo believed (as opposed to what Neo chose).

In the following scene with Morpheus Neo admits he believed what the Architecht told him.
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Post by Akaran_D »

Likely, after everything he had been trough at that point, he put one and one together. If the machines could do the matrix once, why not six times.
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Post by Deneve »

i liked first one a bit better i think...oh and i timed the credits the second time i went....12min 38sec...
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Post by Aaeamdar »

He also told Morpheus in that same conversation that he had been to the source. He was lying to Morpheus, most likely because he was no longer sure what to think or possibly because he does know what to think, but is not ready to tell Morpheus that he chose not to fulfill the prophecy in which Morpheus made the center of his being. Either way, that conversation is not evidence of anything other than whatever Neo is thinking, he is not willing to share it with others.
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Post by Oreck »

After seeing this movie I am really impressed with the story line.

Here are some assumptions I have come up with based on my viewing.

Agent Smith was not destroyed in the original, but rewritten and free from the Matrix due to Neo.

The Architect said that there where 5 previous Neo’s that always went through the same procedure to reach the source. Each time the one reached the source they destroyed Zian completely and the one would select 24 people to rebuild Zian to begin again.

The Oracle is the mother of the Matrix and she convinces others to complete their programming by making them feel that they have a choice, however in reality they will complete the desired programming thinking that it was a choice of free will.

Since the system is not perfect there needed to be checks and balances to remove the anomalies from the system. The anomalies being the people that are awaken from the matrix that are a risk to its continued performance. Hence the five evolutions of Neo and the destruction of Zian on five separate occasions. This keep the system clean and removes what would otherwise cause the destruction of the Matrix.

However in this reload of what would have seemed to be a smooth functioning program something went awry and Neo appeared to destroyed agent Smith. This apparent destruction could have been an alteration of agent Smiths programming causing a new program to emerge.

Hence Agent Smith returns as what appears to be a virus. Currently agent Smith is continuing to propagate him self through the matrix taking over other programs one by one. The Oracle sees this as a risk, even a bigger risk than the anomalies in the humans and hence she introduces a new factor to the picture, which is love.

With the new factor of Love she knows that Neo will not complete his programming to reach the source but will follow a new path to help rid the matrix of the much bigger threat of the Virus Agent Smith.

Keep in mind that this is just my speculation after one viewing
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Post by Xouqoa »

I wonder how many ways we can spell Zion on this thread. Zion is the correct spelling, as that is how it was spelled in the scripts and on the soundtrack. =P
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Post by Aaeamdar »

Agent Smith was not destroyed in the original, but rewritten and free from the Matrix due to Neo.
I do not think this is right. [Former Agent] Smith tells us what happened. Neo destroyed him. Smith then tells about how he knew the rules, he should have obeyed, but was compelled not to obey.

The way I interpret this is that Smith, being code, was destroyed and should have returned to the Source for deletion, his integration with Neo, however, imbued him with certain characteristics that he would not have otherwise possessed, and Smith elected instead to remain in The Matrix, but, in his words "unplugged." In this way, Neo freed him (and yet he remains not free, as he said, as he is finding now that emotions are controling him as opposed to a set of rules).
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Post by Fallanthas »

From his conversation with Neo before the mass battle, his complaint seems to be a lack of purpose, lack of direction.

Virus is a pretty apt description though. Malicious code not under system control, replicating whenever it can....
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Post by Fallanthas »

Here is a twist for you.


What if Neo didn't wake up? What if he is still in the Matrix, held there by the Architecht as a means of dealing with a recalcitrant One?

What if his 'reality' is really the Matrix, another illusion designed to lead him into making the choice to return to the source?

That would explain his control over 'reality'. It would also be a very machine-like answer to a problem, redundancies and backup plans.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Some people want to say that if we didn't like this movie we didn't get it... I got it, just that once I did I really didn't want it anymore. Was a 50 car pileup of a movie.
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Post by Oreck »

Kind of like a Matrix within a Matrix idea? is that waht your infering?

:?
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Post by Chmee »

Destroying" Smith actually freed him from some of his constraints
I find it interesting that Smith was beginning to behave atypically for an agent even before Neo "destroyed" him. Look at the scene when he is talking to Morpheus after he sends the other two agents out. He acts very emotional (angry) unlike the norm for agents, acting human while professing his hatred of them (and expressing concerns that their smell will "infect" him). One of the agents asks him what he was doing when he came back in (seeming to indicate at least some measure of suprise).
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Post by Krurk »

I think this has been mentioned already, but here goes.

I believe there ais actually an additional Matrix that the "real" world exists in. If you notice there are moments when something is happening within the matrix and a brief sound effect is played that resembles static. Notice this sound occurs in the scene where the man attempts to kill Neo in Zion. It occurs again just before Neo destroys the Sentinels. I would assume then that he realizes he is in another Matrix and is finally able to see through it.

A few other points.

How can an agent (a computer program) exist in the real world? Notice the character that the agent took over first attempts to persuade his captain to volunteer for the mission to meet the Neb, then attempts to kill Neo, and finally is the "sole survivor" of an "accidental" discharge of an EMP weapon that disabled five ships causing them to get slaughtered?

Then there is Zion. If the city has been destroyed 5 times already, would it not be likely that inhabitants would see clues indicating some fight took place?

Also, how did the humans develop the ability to enter and decode the matrix when they had nothing to do with creating it? That's on par with one of us developing a neural implant to play EQ.

Anyways, with a second Matrix existing, unknown to all but possibly Neo, are there any truely free humans or has the species been plugged in with no hope of escape? Seeing as how the MMORG for Matrix is slated to follow up on Revolutions, it leads me to believe the following.

Neo will combat Smith in Revolutions (see the clip in the trailer at the end of Reloaded where he squares off against oh... 10,000 Smith's) and must find a way to remove him from the Matrix as he is a disruptive force that threatens to destroy the entire system unless stopped. A comment made by the oracle about man and machine needing each other to exist leads me to think that in the end, Neo will destroy Smith, and then possibly find a way to destroy the Matrix (the architects comment) to weaken the machines. Zion likely falls, and with it the system gets rebooted for Matrix 7.0 which leads into the mmorg. Mankind is forever enslaved and serves as a possible "creativity" for the machines.

Probally a few parts that are not as well thought out as they should be, but I'm tired so tough shit.
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Bubba Grizz
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Post by Bubba Grizz »

Just saw the movie this weekend. There were times I was thinking that this was an odd version of MTV's Summer Beach House. Neo getting laid was a waste of film and the city wide dance/quasi orgy really didn't help me believe that the human race should be saved.

Here is a thought that may have been mentioned before (I didn't read all the novels posted here), what if they just killed all the batteries? Or is that what they are trying to do by bringing down the Matrix? Are they even trying to bring down the Matrix?

A friend told me before going to the movie something that made a kind of sense while I watched it. TV Mini-Series. They introduce all these new characters and plot twists mixed with love interests. Fall of 2004 will herald MATRIX: The Series. and it will fail.
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Post by Taly »

Great fight scenes and special effects but sucky plot. The whole in depth love scene was to much for this movie. the Zion party scene was disapointing. Although the ending was spooky. I agree with what someone said in earlier post. the money was worth it JUST for the fight scenes.
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Kwonryu DragonFist
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Post by Kwonryu DragonFist »

Yay!

I didn't know Taly was a fan of fighting-scenes! :D
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Post by Taly »

Kwonryu DragonFist wrote:Yay!

I didn't know Taly was a fan of fighting-scenes! :D
Bah i always let u kick my ass at that fight game we played ;)
I want to cast...........MAGIC MISSLE!
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Bubba Grizz
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Post by Bubba Grizz »

If they freed everyone from the Matrix, how would they feed them? Is this a prequel to SOYLANT GREEN?
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Re: The Matrix Has You

Post by Winnow »

These Matrix movies sure generated a lot of discussion!

I re-watched the original Matrix last night. It holds up very well over time and deserves a place in the movie hall of fame. (the original movie)


On Matrix II:
Bubba Grizz wrote:Just saw the movie this weekend. There were times I was thinking that this was an odd version of MTV's Summer Beach House. Neo getting laid was a waste of film and the city wide dance/quasi orgy really didn't help me believe that the human race should be saved.
I miss Bubba's perspective on things
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