An Iraqi "Average Joe"

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An Iraqi "Average Joe"

Post by Fairweather Pure »

I have been following this guy for a couple of weeks. My GF has a Blog site and I kind of evetually linked to this site. Well, today I saw this site on Drudge Report so I guess it's safe to assume the mainstream will be commenting on it soon enough. Anyway, it's a online diary of an Iraqi who lives in Baghdad and posts whenever he can. He has interesting insight into the events unfolding around him. Read back a ways to see the average Iraqi's viewpoint in regards to what led up to the current war. Below I have quoted an examle of what you'll be reading on his site. The site is a thought provoking read IMO with insight into the average Iraqi citizen.

No one inside Iraq is for war (note I said war not a change of regime), no human being in his right mind will ask you to give him the beating of his life, unless you are a member of fight club that is, and if you do hear Iraqi (in Iraq, not expat) saying “come on bomb us” it is the exasperation and 10 years of sanctions and hardship talking. There is no person inside Iraq (and this is a bold, blinking and underlined inside) who will be jumping up and down asking for the bombs to drop. We are not suicidal you know, not all of us in any case.
I think that the coming war is not justified (and it is very near now, we hear the war drums loud and clear if you don’t then take those earplugs off!). The excuses for it have been stretched to their limits they will almost snap. A decision has been made sometime ago that “regime change” in Baghdad is needed and excuses for the forceful change have to be made. I do think war could have been avoided, not by running back and forth the last two months, that’s silly. But the whole issue of Iraq should have been dealt with differently since the first day after GW I.
The entities that call themselves “the international community” should have assumed their responsibilities a long time ago, should have thought about what the sanctions they have imposed really meant, should have looked at reports about weapons and human rights abuses a long time before having them thrown in their faces as excuses for war five minutes before midnight.
What is bringing on this rant is the question that has been bugging for days now: how could “support democracy in Iraq” become to mean “bomb the hell out of Iraq”? why did it end up that democracy won’t happen unless we go thru war? Nobody minded an un-democratic Iraq for a very long time, now people have decided to bomb us to democracy? Well, thank you! how thoughtful.
The situation in Iraq could have been solved in other ways than what the world will be going thru the next couple of weeks. It can’t have been that impossible. Look at the northern parts of Iraq, that is a model that has worked quite well, why wasn’t anybody interested in doing that in the south. Just like the US/UK UN created a protected area there why couldn’t the model be tried in the south. It would have cut off the regimes arms and legs. And once the people see what they have been deprived off they will not be willing to go back, just ask any Iraqi from the Kurdish areas. Instead the world watched while after the war the Shias were crushed by Saddam’s army in a manner that really didn’t happen before the Gulf War. Does anyone else see the words (Iran/not in the US interest) floating or is it me hallucinating?
And there is the matter of Sanctions. Now that Iraq has been thru a decade of these sanctions I can only hope that their effects are clear enough for them not to be tried upon another nation. Sanctions which allegedly should have kept a potentially dangerous situation in Iraq in check brought a whole nation to its knees instead. And who ultimately benefited from the sanctions? Neither the international community nor the Iraqi people, he who was in power and control still is. These sanctions made the Iraqi people hostages in the hands of this regime, tightened an already tight noose around our necks. A whole nation, a proud and learned nation, was devastated not by the war but by sanctions. Our brightest and most creative minds fled the country not because of oppression alone but because no one inside Iraq could make a living, survive. And can anyone tell me what the sanctions really did about weapons? Get real, there are always willing nations who will help, there are always organizations which will find his money sweet. Oil-for-Food? Smart Sanctions? Get a clue. Who do you think is getting all those contracts to supply the people with “food”? who do you think is heaping money in bank accounts abroad? It is his people, his family and the people who play his game. Abroad and in Iraq, Iraqis and non-Iraqis.
What I mean to say is that things could have been different; I can’t help look at the Northern parts of Iraq with envy and wonder why.
Do support democracy in Iraq. But don’t equate it with war. What will happen is something that could/should have been avoided. Don’t expect me to wear a t-shirt. Support democracy in Iraq not by bombing us to hell and then trying to build it up again (well that is going to happen any way) not by sending human shields (let’s be real the war is going to happen and Saddam will use you as hostages), but by keeping an eye on what will happen after the war.


[url]http://dear_raed.blogspot.com[/url]
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Post by Gurugurumaki »

Iraqi's have computers?
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Post by Fairweather Pure »

Iraqi's have computers?
They have friends and family, and sons and daughters too. Pretty fucked up, huh?
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Post by Acies »

IC.
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Post by Gurugurumaki »

Fairweather Pure wrote:
Iraqi's have computers?
They have friends and family, and sons and daughters too. Pretty fucked up, huh?
Sorry don't see the corelation between family and computers~
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Post by Fairweather Pure »

I took the opportunity to point out that they're just human beings like the rest of us, which is definately a view that too many people seem to forget.

In regards to computers, I do wonder what his set-up is like. It's probably rather ghetto, but it seems to get the job done. /shrug

I knew a girl who did "study abroad" in France and she couldn't stop telling me how absolutely laughable the computer labs were there. I think OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of us take that sort of stuff for granted. I know I do.
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Post by Acies »

Likewise here Fair.
Taking things for granted seems to be a strong forte for America. However, we have a priveliged life style because our nation is the strongest in the world, and we have worked hard for it.
However I find it decidedly depressing knowing this man is right, that America does have an ulterior motive to taking Iraq instead of simply stopping Saddam.
War is going to not only hurt them, but I think it degrades us also by default.
If someone need a reason to go against it, then understand our economic situation post-war.
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Post by Fallanthas »

I don't think anyone has forgotten Iraqis are people. That's a silly thing to say.


I want one of you anti-war folk to explain to me how an Iraqi dead from stavation is any better off than one that has been bombed. The presupposition here seems to be that those who die to force regime change are somehow worse off than those who die if the status quo is maintained.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

I spent some time in India and I will say, their systems are really innovative. Now this is around Bangalore (SE asia's silicon valley), but it amazed me at how the average internet cafe computer was pretty damn nice. India is such a paradox of itself it's amazing.
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Post by Fairweather Pure »

I want one of you anti-war folk to explain to me how an Iraqi dead from stavation is any better off than one that has been bombed. The presupposition here seems to be that those who die to force regime change are somehow worse off than those who die if the status quo is maintained.
Wow. I'm off for the day. I'll try and remeber to post a response to this tomarrow. It will go something like "Who are we to force the sanctions that allow people to starve to death on another country". Might does not make right.

War hawks also seem to forget how fast we back tracked on any aid what-so-ever to the Iraqis after GW1. People are being encouraged not to celebrate yet. Last time they did, it was premature, and Saddam's agent's were not pleased.
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Post by Xyun »

I want one of you anti-war folk to explain to me how an Iraqi dead from stavation is any better off than one that has been bombed. The presupposition here seems to be that those who die to force regime change are somehow worse off than those who die if the status quo is maintained.
Obviously the point of the entire passage flew way the fuck over your head. Your conclusion from this passage is that he is saying he'd rather starve to death than be bombed.

I was going to re-write what the guy said but I can't say it any better. Maybe if I put it in big bold letters...
Sanctions which allegedly should have kept a potentially dangerous situation in Iraq in check brought a whole nation to its knees instead. And who ultimately benefited from the sanctions? Neither the international community nor the Iraqi people, he who was in power and control still is. These sanctions made the Iraqi people hostages in the hands of this regime, tightened an already tight noose around our necks.
He is not saying let us choose between starvation and bombs, he is saying ... nm.
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Post by Fallanthas »

Wow, you dumbasses really have a deep set of blinders on.


Let me go slow....


Who imposed sanctions on Iraq for 12 years? Here's a hint, it wasn't the US.


Xyun, you are so far off the fucking mark it's pitiful. I was responding to a general perception on this board, not anything specific in the text quoted.

So explain to me how an Iraqi dead from starvation if sanctions continue is better off than one killed by a bomb ending that fucked-up mess?
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Post by Xyun »

The answer is NEITHER SANCTIONS NOR WAR is the proper solution to this problem.
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
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Post by kyoukan »

Gurugurumaki wrote:Iraqi's have computers?
no they are all savage cavemen that don't even have electricity.

of course they have fucking computers.
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Post by Cartalas »

kyoukan type-R wrote:
Gurugurumaki wrote:Iraqi's have computers?
no they are all savage cavemen that don't even have electricity.

of course they have fucking computers.

Come on Guru if Canadians have Computers you know damn well Iraqies do too. :wink:
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Post by Cartalas »

Xyun wrote:The answer is NEITHER SANCTIONS NOR WAR is the proper solution to this problem.

Im sure Xyun thinks being kind to Saddam and asking him to please stop will work.

"excuse me Saddam will you please stop killing the people"

Yeah right!!!

Listen Xyun you hear that?

Thats the sound of me opening the Tool Box now go home!!!
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Post by Fallanthas »

In other words, you think the UN should stay out of the situation?


Cartalas covered how stupid play-nice is.


Fine, then I don't wnat to see any more bullshit about how the US should have worked through the UN to solve the problem.
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Post by Aslanna »

Iraqi's have computers?
Apparently so. And they watch Fight Club too!

I'd be surprised if the actual author of that was an "Average Joe" Iraqi.
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Post by Acies »

Xyun wrote:The answer is NEITHER SANCTIONS NOR WAR is the proper solution to this problem.
Exactly. Some people still believe that the pen is mighter than the sword. Being a fencer for over 15 years, I would concur with that statement.
Nonetheless, it is pathetic that you think that Saddam is this archtypical bad guy who cannot be reasoned with. We did NOT reason with him, we demanded. Example:
I demand you shut the fuck up Fallanthas.
Are you going to? Fuck no, you will tell me to shove it.
That response is what is known as pride.
To say that Saddam is slime, deserving death, and a dictator, well that is all readily apparent to be true. I am not agruing that.
I am arguing that the people caught bettween Saddam's and Bush's stubborn dick measuring pride do not desrve this shit, and frankly if I had the power to I would exile them both on a ten foot island together to live for eternity in only each others company (They would make good bedfellow I feel).
The only differance between the "anti-war" people and the "pro-war" people is the "anti-war" understand what it would be like to see D.C. go up in flames, we can empathize with the suffering that could be averted through other means. The "pro-war" people, apparently, cannot imagine this nor relate to the Iraqi peoples circumstance, nor can they see anything but war as a viable option in this instance.
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Post by miir »

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Post by kyoukan »

Fallanthas wrote:In other words, you think the UN should stay out of the situation?


Cartalas covered how stupid play-nice is.


Fine, then I don't wnat to see any more bullshit about how the US should have worked through the UN to solve the problem.
what a dreadful human being you are. I fucking hate asshole war hawk apologist scumbags like yourself. please do the world a favor and die.
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Post by Fallanthas »

The only differance between the "anti-war" people and the "pro-war" people is the "anti-war" understand what it would be like to see D.C. go up in flames, we can empathize with the suffering that could be averted through other means. The "pro-war" people, apparently, cannot imagine this nor relate to the Iraqi peoples circumstance, nor can they see anything but war as a viable option in this instance.

BEEP!


Wrong answer, but thanks for playing.


The difference is that those of us for regime change recoignize that after you are done sympathizing, the situation is still there.

Come up with a solution and speak your mind. Cry on your own time.
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Post by Acies »

kyoukan type-R wrote:
Fallanthas wrote:In other words, you think the UN should stay out of the situation?


Cartalas covered how stupid play-nice is.


Fine, then I don't wnat to see any more bullshit about how the US should have worked through the UN to solve the problem.
what a dreadful human being you are. I fucking hate asshole war hawk apologist scumbags like yourself. please do the world a favor and die.
Ok, that is just a little bit harsh Kyou. Fallanthas is arguing his point of view. As someone who knows him, I think that he is a caring and loving person and father.
He just has a differant opinion of this conflict than us.
I think I can even empathize with him:
The quicker this is ended, the less people have to suffer.

In fact, I contend that I am an idealist. Falla is a realist.
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Post by kyoukan »

oh jesus he is breeding? you could probably walk across that gene pool without getting your feet wet.
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Post by Acies »

Fallanthas wrote:
The only differance between the "anti-war" people and the "pro-war" people is the "anti-war" understand what it would be like to see D.C. go up in flames, we can empathize with the suffering that could be averted through other means. The "pro-war" people, apparently, cannot imagine this nor relate to the Iraqi peoples circumstance, nor can they see anything but war as a viable option in this instance.

BEEP!


Wrong answer, but thanks for playing.


The difference is that those of us for regime change recoignize that after you are done sympathizing, the situation is still there.

Come up with a solution and speak your mind. Cry on your own time.
Okay, solution: We assassinate Saddam and his "bad evil sons" and install a leader who will support ideals of freedom and democracy
Now I ask you, WHY exactly was this not done as it would save money and lives?
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Post by Acies »

kyoukan type-R wrote:oh jesus he is breeding? you could probably walk across that gene pool without getting your feet wet.
... Was that directed to me?
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Post by Fallanthas »

Congrats Kyou on an irrelevant_personal_slam_078956. let me kno wwhen you want to contribute to the discussion.


It's been explained before Acies. Just getting ridof Saddam and his sons wont do the job. You also need to eliminate a double-handful of sycophants and millitary figures. That is just too many targets for an assasination, no way to insert that many troops and get the job done without touching off, you guessed it, a war.

Seriously, if someone comes up with a real world solution that has better odds of working than removing Hussein and company via a millitary coup, I will acknowledge the US acted in haste and apologize.


So far I haven't heard of such a thing.
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Post by Acies »

To my knowledge, it has never been tried. So we do know know it would not work or would. It is an idea, one we have not tried though.
However, I would rather sacrifice Saddam Inc. that become the terrorists of Iraq.
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Post by Atokal »

Acies wrote:To my knowledge, it has never been tried. So we do know know it would not work or would. It is an idea, one we have not tried though.
However, I would rather sacrifice Saddam Inc. that become the terrorists of Iraq.
Saddam was reasoned with by the entire Arab community before 1991's Gulf War. He was and is an arrogant individual who snubbed his nose at reason then and when he had 12 years to comply to reason he continued that behaviour. If you look at despotic history NOT one has been reasoned with to the point they gave up power. Dear Mr. Amin please stop murdering and torturing innocent people. Dear Mr. Hitler please stop killing jews and others you deem unfit to live. Dear Mr. Hussien for the sake of your people and the global community please allow unhindered inspections and stop your childish facination with torture and murder.

I do feel for the author of this letter. Had there been a reasonable alternative WHICH none of you Saddam lovers have put forth I would have been unequivacally against this war.

*Note the Saddam lovers comment was in response to those that think we support the war for the love of war.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Aslanna wrote:
Iraqi's have computers?
Apparently so. And they watch Fight Club too!

I'd be surprised if the actual author of that was an "Average Joe" Iraqi.
If you travel abroad, especially outside europe you will notice one thing that will startle the hell outta you. Guys you meet, in their 20's and such, know as much about american society, have seen the same movies (dvd's are like 50 cents) and can probably outquote you stat for stat on your favorite basketball player. I read his stuff, he strikes me as a great many somewhat educated people that want nothing more then to get the hell outta where they are and go to UCLA (ok not all of them want to go to UCLA, but oddly I'd say over a third I met wanted to go there... kinda made me laugh). I have never been to Iran, nope, haven't, but I have been to more third world contries then I can count on my fingers and toes. Maybe Iraqis are different, but he reminds me of the people I met in Greece, Turkey and Israel (I still want to go to Egypt dammit).
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Post by Wulfran »

Toke, get your facts straight.
Dear Mr. Hitler please stop killing jews and others you deem unfit to live.
Most of the world didn't acknowledge the camps existed until the end of WW2, when the Allies liberated some and were forced to. The appeasements prior to the war dealt with issues like Hitler's annexation of Austria, the Sudatenland in Hungary, etc and things like his re-armament programs which were in contravention of the terms of the Treaty of Versailles.

Sadam Hussein is no Hitler. Whether he could have become one in the right circumstances or not is a moot point after the way he blundered into the first Gulf War. He didn't have a big enough hammer when he decided he wanted to pound on someone, and got pounded himself.
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Post by Gurugurumaki »

kyoukan type-R wrote:
Gurugurumaki wrote:Iraqi's have computers?
no they are all savage cavemen that don't even have electricity.

of course they have fucking computers.
Maybe I should not have been so subtle...IT WAS A FOKING JOKE
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