The rest of the story....

Neost · Post by **Neost** » March 2, 2003, 2:26 am

http://www.ehowa.com

No Good Deed Goes Unpunished

What a very sad and bizarre end we have to the Jesica Santillan story. Jesica's second heart and lung transplant seemed to be working, but the damage from the first transplant was already done, and it wasn't survivable. Jesica died on Saturday afternoon with irreversible brain damage.

Now .. the rest of the story. Jesica, as you no doubt know by now, came to this country illegally. On both of the days that both of her transplant surgeries took place about sixteen people who were in this country legally died because they didn't get their life-saving transplant in time. That's 32 law-abiding citizens and residents of the United States who passed away while an illegal alien was receiving two hearts and lungs. (Four lungs? I don't know if they transplant one or two at a time.) Here's your kicker. When Jesica passed away there was a chance that the heart and lung she received a few days earlier might have been transplanted into yet another recipient. She also had two kidneys, corneas and other organs that could have been transplanted. The doctors asked her family if they would donate her organs.

Amazingly, they said, "No".

Can you believe this? This family pays a human-smuggler $5,000 to get into this country. They play on the sympathies of Americans to collect donations sufficient to cover the cost of the first operation. The hospital picks up the cost of the second operation - a cost that will be passed on to the taxpayers and to other patients. They give this girl two hearts and a couple of lungs that could have been transplanted into law-abiding citizens or residents. Then, when the time comes to show some appreciation or some compassion for others who might need a donor organ .. they say, "No".

Kysran · Post by **Kysran** » March 2, 2003, 3:12 am

Wow, words can not express how seriously fucked up that is

Quarkk · Post by **Quarkk** » March 2, 2003, 3:35 am

Ugh.

Hope that's eloquent enough

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 2, 2003, 4:30 am

bullshit.

children's organs aren't used in transplant operations, neither would organs be donated from someone who died from a massive organ failure and was on life support.

Neost · Post by **Neost** » March 2, 2003, 12:42 pm

She was 17.

I believe her organs were capable of being used for others. Not to mention that she got 2 sets of organs AHEAD of people who were not in the country illegally.

Even if the heart and lungs were not capable of being used for someone else, there were parts that could be used.

Llaffer · Post by **Llaffer** » March 2, 2003, 12:53 pm

I too heard about the illeagal alien part of this about 2 days after her death.

My understanding that the corea itself was the only thing that could be used .. being on life suppport for so long basically ruined any other organ from being re-used.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if her body was gutted open again, an autopsy could not take place.

I am not saying that what this family did was right, but the media sure puts a god-awful spin on things at times.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » March 2, 2003, 2:58 pm

I was also taken back when I heard the family decline organ donation. However, put yourself in the family's shoes for a second. Doctors just killed your daughter in the most stupid way, even people that can't name their state capital probably know different blood types clash.

In that frame of mind I can't be too harsh on the parents not making the right decision. I'm sure their thought process was clouded with both sadness and anger.

I don't understand why it would matter if she was an illegal immigrant, tourist or citizen. The US medical system is a business, citizenship means nothing, only $$$ matters.

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » March 2, 2003, 4:34 pm

Clearly, citizens are more deserving of live than non-citizens.

Did it occur to anyone that visa rules might be relaxed to allow anyone who can pay to seek medical help in the U.S. without circumventing draconian import quotas on the brown-skinned?

Mp

masteen · Post by **masteen** » March 2, 2003, 5:40 pm

Mplor wrote:Clearly, citizens are more deserving of live than non-citizens.

Did it occur to anyone that visa rules might be relaxed to allow anyone who can pay to seek medical help in the U.S. without circumventing draconian import quotas on the brown-skinned?

Damn right American citizens are more deserving. We're the ones who's tax and insurance dollars keep the fucking system going. I'm very sorry that some people live in third world squalor, but fuck them.

It's not just brown-skinned people I don't want coming to this country. I don't want anyone without any viable job skills, who's just gonna end up riding the welfare wagon. One can't even work at McDonald's without a grasp of the English language.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 2, 2003, 6:06 pm

AMERICAN ORGANS FOR AMERICANS

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » March 3, 2003, 11:04 am

This whole situation is said, It all started with the,

1. The girl being sick in the first place
2. The Girls own govt. not being able to help
3. The Parents having to pay 5,000 Dollars to have her smuggled across the border.
4.The doctors screwing up
5. The fact that the girl died
6. The parents (If true) not letting the hospital reuse the organs
7. The members of Flamevault arguing about what is right or wrong in this situation

Every person has a right to life, Maybe there is something to be learned here. If both Govts would communicate maybe there would be more organ donors for both sides.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 3, 2003, 11:11 am

I harbor much anger and hatred for that bitch and the system that allows this shit.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » March 3, 2003, 11:20 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I harbor much anger and hatred for that bitch and the system that allows this shit.

Thats sad its not the girls fault

masteen · Post by **masteen** » March 3, 2003, 11:24 am

Cartalas wrote:Thats sad its not the girls fault

But neither is it my fault, nor my mother's fault, nor your fault. But WE are the ones who will end up paying for this in the long term.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 3, 2003, 11:28 am

an inaccuracy in the quoted paragraph:

the cost of the 2nd operation will probably not be passed on to taxpayers.

Duke University is a private school with an endowment the size of ... well something large...and Duke Medical Center is not a public hospital if i recall.

it is possible that somebody's grant could be dinged for some of the money, and that would be NIH dollars, but i bet the hospital just makes an insurance claim on itself, instead of bending one of its world class physicians over the barrel.

so dot anybody get flustered over $0.00001 cents being taken from each of us

i do think it is very unfortunate this happened like this. i think that the medical infrastructure of the US should benefit US Citizens first, and paying customers from elsewhere second, etc.

I dont really hold much against the parents. They were trying to save their child's life, and even if what they did was dishonest, i can accept that they tried everything that they could to save that child's life. that is understandible, not admirable, but i can't say i wouldnt try the same if i was in their situation.

i suspect most of us would try to do the same, if not worse to save our own child.

I

masteen · Post by **masteen** » March 3, 2003, 11:38 am

Voronwe wrote:so dot anybody get flustered over $0.00001 cents being taken from each of us

It's not the particular instance that pisses me off. It's the fact that the same system that allows bullshit like this through denies coverage to legitimately sick, insured Americans.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 3, 2003, 11:40 am

masteen i agree with you 100%.

my point was just to illustrate that it will most likely be Duke University students, alumni, and corporate benefactors who get dinged 0.00001 dollars, not US Taxpayers =)

Silvarel Mistmoon · Post by **Silvarel Mistmoon** » March 3, 2003, 11:42 am

It came out before her second operation that she was not a citizen and was smuggled in to the country. I was shocked by this because I thought each state had their own list and that it was hard to get organs from other states then to hear someone smuggled in was given this heart and lungs the first time around.
Second the fact she was on life support for so long and they attempted the second round really shocked me even more. Because of the fact that she was on life support.

I fill sorry for the girl because she was young and had to live a unhealthy life and that is very sad. I don't blame her parents I blame the Dr.s and the hospitals. They had to know this girl was not a citizen, they did it on their own and I bet it's not the first time they have done something like this.
Makes you say hmmmm knowing how many surgeons have gone on strike or even left the northern states because of their malpractice insurance being too high, but yet these guys may have figured why worry she is illegally here what can they do. Well the parents are going to sue them and I feel they deserve it.

By the time your 17 your organs aren't considered child size if I remember right. They are by then adult size I think.

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » March 3, 2003, 12:16 pm

I'd much rather see organs go to a 17 yo girl with her whole life ahead of her than a 65 yo millionnaire that wants to squeeze another 15-20 yrs. of life.

Ennia · Post by **Ennia** » March 3, 2003, 1:09 pm

I really don't know why it's such a shock to people that she wasn't a citizen and got that transplant.
When that news about her status in US surfaced, I remember reading on Yahoo news that they were allowed/required to do those kinds of treatments on non-citizens also. My memory is not good but I think it was said it's like 5 or 10% of all transplants are done on non-citizens. (I'll look for that article sometime today to verify that)

There are charities and organizations who bring people from other countries to have all kinds of life saving surgeries in US. Because it's simply not possible in their home country. Mostly for technological and financial reasons.

Besides isn't medicine and medical research interested in some cases simply to advance studies or gather material and experience to further the progress? Without looking at ethnical background or immigration status of patients?

It's so sad that doctors botched this particular case but they've done so much for so many other people around the world. Some of you seem to ignore that completely. It's not all about money.

People who had their lives saved in US and live in Bangladesh are as grateful as Joe Doe from Ohio.

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » March 3, 2003, 1:35 pm

The article actually said a maximum of 5% transplants would be performed on non-U.S. citizens through the help of some charity organization.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » March 3, 2003, 1:40 pm

Smuggled in a van != Brought in by a charity.

Yes, there is a fucking difference, and it's important.

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » March 3, 2003, 2:10 pm

masteen wrote:Smuggled in a van != Brought in by a charity.

Yes, there is a fucking difference, and it's important.

I didn't say she was brought in by a charity. I said there was a maximum of 5% of transplants given to non-U.S. Citizens which was determined by a non-profit organization - specifically the United Network for Organ Sharing.

If you have a problem with the girl getting medical care, complain about the system that allowed her to have it, not about her parents for doing what they could to save her life.

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » March 3, 2003, 2:19 pm

Ok you quote "news" from Ernie's house of Whoopass? k...

From the Yahoo coverage:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... _error_152

Jesica's mother asked doctors about donating the 17-year-old girl's new heart and lungs as well as other organs. She was told the heart and lungs could not be reused and the kidneys and liver were ruined from being on life support too long.

Other organs and tissues were so saturated with medications and anti-rejection drugs that they also would not be reusable, Mahoney said.

Wow sounds like there's some discrepancy in the stories circulating. Just goes to show, you shouldn't always believe everything you read/hear.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 3, 2003, 2:20 pm

Aye. Definitely wouldn't blame the parents. I would do anything to save my children's lives. I don't like the il-legals. I don;t mind the constant influx of immigrants to this country. After all that's how I became a citizen. My grandparents immigrated here, 47 years ago. I just don't like the ones who don't come here legally or make any attempt to legalize there stay here, while they profit from our bleeding heart society.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 3, 2003, 2:49 pm

I get all my news from Ernie's! Which reminds me, when is Elvis and GWB's marriage set to take place again?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 3, 2003, 2:51 pm

doctors swear an oath to treat all sick people to the best of their abilities. do you really feel this should be changed to "all sick americans?"

and you wonder why people hate americans so much.

shrug.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 3, 2003, 3:03 pm

*double post*

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 3, 2003, 3:05 pm

kyoukan type-R wrote:doctors swear an oath to treat all sick people to the best of their abilities. do you really feel this should be changed to "all sick americans?"

and you wonder why people hate americans so much.

shrug.

It's not the doctors people are questioning. It's the system itself.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 3, 2003, 3:06 pm

the system revolves around the doctors. duh?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » March 3, 2003, 3:17 pm

kyoukan type-R wrote:the system revolves around the doctors. duh?

Not True the System revolves around Lawyers.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 3, 2003, 3:22 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
It's not the doctors people are questioning. It's the system itself.

They sure as fuck better be questioning the doctors...

Ceredwin · Post by **Ceredwin** » March 3, 2003, 4:07 pm

Since Socialized medicine is the way Canada does things, I am moving up there for treatment of my daughter, should my husband ever lose his job and insurance we pay for. Oh just a sec, I forgot, they have huge waiting lists for thier own citizens, don't take care of foreigners, and any Canadian with money pays for medical care in US anyway.

Guess I am better off paying for insurance in the good ole US, where the evil Capitalists spend money on research and best medical treatment is available.

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » March 3, 2003, 4:11 pm

Don't forget about the drug companies who spenda shitload marketing Miracle drug - X, flying doctors and pharmacists and other health care pro's to hawaii and other exotic places for 3 days to attend a 2-3 hours conferance(while footing the bill) and in the end just recoup all this cost by selling the stuff people need to survive 50$ a pill.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 3, 2003, 4:14 pm

kyoukan type-R wrote:the system revolves around the doctors. duh?

The system is the insurance companies, the drug makers, etc. The doctors are no more integral to the medical system, than I am to the Banking system. (I work in a bank)

Understand what I am saying?

miir · Post by **miir** » March 3, 2003, 4:15 pm

they have huge waiting lists for thier own citizens

untrue

any Canadian with money pays for medical care in US anyway

untrue

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » March 3, 2003, 4:16 pm

Insurance is the biggest fucking scam ever invented. I don't care if it's health/home/car/ect. It's a joke. Virtually anyone who has ever actually needed to file a claim will agree with me. The system sucks dirty ass.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » March 3, 2003, 4:20 pm

Fairweather Pure wrote:Insurance is the biggest fucking scam ever invented. I don't care if it's health/home/car/ect. It's a joke. Virtually anyone who has ever actually needed to file a claim will agree with me. The system sucks dirty ass.

Any different then sucking clean ass

Gurugurumaki · Post by **Gurugurumaki** » March 3, 2003, 4:22 pm

the taste obviousry

Ceredwin · Post by **Ceredwin** » March 3, 2003, 4:41 pm

Miir:

You are claiming there are not huge waiting lists for what is basic care in U.S. in Canada and that many Canadians with money to spend do not come to the U.S. for care?

Or was that just an "untrue" under both my statements for the hell of it?

miir · Post by **miir** » March 3, 2003, 4:49 pm

You are claiming there are not huge waiting lists for what is basic care in U.S. in Canada and that many Canadians with money to spend do not come to the U.S. for care?

For basic care, there are no 'waiting lists' in Canada.

If someone has excessive cash and is willing to have a procedure performed in the US, they can execise that option. Your original statement implied that every Canadian 'with money' would opt to have it done in the US.

There's nothing wrong with buying medical care.
I doubt there is any difference in quality of care for an operation that you could get free in Canada or pay $15000 in the US.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » March 3, 2003, 5:49 pm

Animalor wrote:Don't forget about the drug companies who spenda shitload marketing Miracle drug - X, flying doctors and pharmacists and other health care pro's to hawaii and other exotic places for 3 days to attend a 2-3 hours conferance(while footing the bill) and in the end just recoup all this cost by selling the stuff people need to survive 50$ a pill.

Until the patent ends. Claritin anyone?

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » March 3, 2003, 5:52 pm

Chidoro wrote: Until the patent ends. Claritin anyone?

Oh yeah that reminds me... fuck Claritin and fuck every insurance company that refuses to cover Allergy medicine. I like how they will pay for my allergy shots but won't pay for the pills I have to take to get my allergy shots. Mother fucking cocksucking insurance bitches!

P.S. - My supercool new insurance plan at work won't cover birth control pills either! Guess they'd rather fork over the $$ for births!

Healthnet sucks donkey penis and so does my work for using it!

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » March 3, 2003, 5:56 pm

Medical equipment manufacturing companies pay outrageous insurance premiums due to the high liability they incur with their products (insurance company says

)

Hospitals, doctors etc pay huge prices for medical equipment and drugs. This offsets what it costs the manufacturers to stay in buisness.

THe physician pays enormous malpractice insurance premiums.

The patient pays huge insurance premiums to cover costly medical care. Care that is made costly by both the cost of a physician having to cover HIS insurance premiums and the high cost of medical supplies (made so expensive by other insurance premiums).

Sense a pattern here?

Medical insurers are fucking the entire system from the front, back and anywhere else they can jam their rods in. They control what health care costs up front with their premiums to doctors and supply manufacturers, then fuck patients into huge premiums due to the costs they themselves inflated.

Rat Bastards.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 3, 2003, 5:56 pm

most insurance plans dont cover birth control.

considering how cheap it is, i don't know why, cause yes as you said, babies cost insurance companies a freakin' mint!

miir · Post by **miir** » March 3, 2003, 6:05 pm

THe physician pays enormous malpractice insurance premiums.

I had no idea how ridiculous this is in the states....

Jan 2003

The crisis was underscored this week, when almost all surgeries at four West Virginia hospitals were canceled as a protest against high rates.

"The cost of medical malpractice insurance has become so burdensome that some physicians are moving to other states where they can afford to practice."

Last year the Rush-Presbyterian-St. Luke's Medical Center in Chicago was self-insured for the first $4 million in liabilities, but this year, it must cover the first $15 million itself, with insurance companies stepping in only to cover awards that exceed $15 million.

Escalating malpractice awards have prompted insurance companies to jack up doctors' malpractice premiums by as much as 80 percent in some states during the past two years, according to figures from the National Conference of State Legislatures.

Doctors are responding by refusing to treat cases which might invite a high level of financial risk to themselves and their practices

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 3, 2003, 6:05 pm

Ceredwin wrote:Miir:

You are claiming there are not huge waiting lists for what is basic care in U.S. in Canada and that many Canadians with money to spend do not come to the U.S. for care?

Or was that just an "untrue" under both my statements for the hell of it?

This is just not the case. Yes, it's not a system where if you have the money, you get the goods faster. It's an equality system that strives to provide decent health care for EVERYONE, regardless of insurance plans. So while the millionaire may have to wait longer, the little guy has a better chance of survival. As for basic needs, no, there's no big waiting. Try not to make such blatant claims without living in this system.

I personally love our health care system, but it can of course stand for improvement. And yes, some people if they have the money will go to the States for important things if they want to, MRI's seeming to be the big thing.

And, just to debunk what someone said, Canada is FAR from poor conditions, practices, and medical skill/knowledge. In fact we're leaders in numerous fields of medicine.

So please, stfu.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » March 3, 2003, 6:07 pm

I just got a letter from State Farm last week ammending my automotive policy. It lists things like chemical weapons, WMD, and terrorist related acts that my policy no longer covers. You've got to hand it to those crooks for working in advance to cover thier own asses.

Let me add that my policy just went up 8%. I asked my agent the reason and she said "It was a bad year for auto accidents. Part of having insurance means you share the burden of others and vice versa".

My reply?

"So when you have less accidents than average, you'll drop my rates again, right?"

Goddamn insurance companies...

Silvarel Mistmoon · Post by **Silvarel Mistmoon** » March 3, 2003, 6:39 pm

As I understand it you pay more insurance also because of the people that won't carry it at all. For cars that is, not sure bout medical but was told the same on that also.

I am very lucky, I have good insurance thru my husbands work although I have to get certain meds through the mail in a 90 day supply (takes weeks to receive them) I pretty much can use any Dr. in the area because their list is so large, but I know others who aren't so lucky and are very limited to what Dr.s they can use.
I personally don't want our government taking over our health care, if the way the clinics that the military family members are any indication on the type of care we would receive then we are screwed. (and they aren't military Dr's in the clinics I am talking bout. )

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 3, 2003, 6:39 pm

Ceredwin wrote:Miir:

You are claiming there are not huge waiting lists for what is basic care in U.S. in Canada and that many Canadians with money to spend do not come to the U.S. for care?

Or was that just an "untrue" under both my statements for the hell of it?

You couldn't be farther from the truth actually. Canada doesn't have huge waiting lists for anything but elective surgery. If I fell sick I could get in to see a doctor today and if my condition was serious and needed surgery I could be in the hospital operating room as early as tomorrow depending on the seriousness of it.

Things like knee surgeries or other things that aren't life threatening can take a couple+ months, but if you don't have the money to pay for it then you don't have to pay. Nobody in Canada gets an actual hospital bill.

I've never heard of anyone in Canada who's had to wait longer than half a year for an elective surgery. Considering that the alternative is to pay $20-60,000 I don't see exactly what your criticism is.

It is a common misconception that all canadians get free health care. We don't. Canadians get guaranteed health care. I myself have a fairly extensive medical insurance plan from my job that covers most of my costs.

Like other things, canadian medical is more of a mixture of european style socialism and american style capitalism.

A lot of wealthy canucks do go south for elective surgeries if they feel like paying for it and don't feel like waiting. My fiance got an operation down in seattle but it was largely cosmetic and certainly elective and he felt like going to a specialist.

Americans generally pay out the fucking ass for medical treatment, and your hospitals are really no better than ours.