I've been a vegetarian for two days.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » February 4, 2011, 8:40 pm

Spang wrote:
Aslanna wrote:There is a food chain that affects everything.
The food chain was invented by humans to justify exploitation of animals.

Wow. Delusional much? You've only been a vegetarian for TWO FUCKING DAYS! You'll be full-blown PETA within a week.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » February 4, 2011, 8:41 pm

Xouqoa wrote:
Spang wrote:No shit, but humans are not predators.
I don't know if I'd agree with that. Humans are the most prolific predators on the planet.

"Any animal that survives by preying on other animals." We may not be full time predators, due to technology, but saying we aren't at all is a stretch.

We don't kill animals because we need to, rather, because we want to.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » February 4, 2011, 8:43 pm

Aslanna wrote:You've only been a vegetarian for TWO FUCKING DAYS!

True, but I've been doing research on the subject for nearly a year and a half.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » February 4, 2011, 8:48 pm

All the while eating animals...

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 4, 2011, 8:58 pm

He's got to be trolling.

Not bad...not bad.

I admit I don't eat much red meat these days but damn this thread is making me want some.

John Candy and the 96 oz steak!

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 4, 2011, 10:45 pm

I'm not a vegetarian. I typically don't cook meat in my home, but I almost always eat some meat if I'm at a restaurant, and I have no qualms with eating it if somebody else cooks for me. And there are no absolutes-- I made some meat chili a few weeks ago, I'll cook fish for my girlfriend, and I'm sure I'll eventually make myself a steak, as I make the best steaks in the world.

Part of my reason for generally avoiding cooking meat is practical. Good meat is expensive (at least if you have no car and the only walkable grocery store is Whole Foods, like me) and it's a pain in the ass. You have to use separate cutting boards, you have to be careful about handwashing, all that crap. I don't have time for that. I can get my protein through tofu and quinoa and the delicious tuna sandwiches that I frequently eat for lunch.

Part of my reason is ethical. Most meat does have a lot of ethical problems. I completely agree that humans are naturally omnivorous generalists, like bears, and there's nothing inherently wrong with killing animals for food. That said, the "in theory" shit doesn't really make much of a fucking difference when what, like 95%+ of the meat that we consume is factory farmed. Yeah, yeah... if you bought only organic free range grass fed hormone free locally sourced chicken, maybe you'd be ok, or even better, if you hunt for your meat. But you don't. I don't either. Most of the meat that we consume is hideous. Then there are the environmental issues-- it takes more energy to produce a calorie of meat than a calorie of vegetables and all that.

There are also health issues to think about. Some meat is healthy. Much seafood is. Chicken's not bad. Some other meats are healthy, and most at least contain some vitamins and nutrients, even if they're fatty. I'd rather eat a piece of bacon than a slice of wonder bread, health-wise (even though bacon is kind of gross and totally played out). But for the most part, they're not great. I do my best to eat a ton of vegetables, moderate amounts of fruit, nuts, beans and whole grains, the occasional piece of fish, and as little as possible of everything else. Just seems like the way to go. As much as I love delicious food, eating should generally be a method of getting energy, not a way to indulge in aesthetic pleasure.

Meats that I don't think I could permanently give up: Fish. Scallops. Steak. That might be about it... the occasional bit of pork bbq?

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » February 4, 2011, 11:49 pm

Spang wrote:
Xouqoa wrote:
Spang wrote:No shit, but humans are not predators.
I don't know if I'd agree with that. Humans are the most prolific predators on the planet.

"Any animal that survives by preying on other animals." We may not be full time predators, due to technology, but saying we aren't at all is a stretch.
We don't kill animals because we need to, rather, because we want to.

Just because you like to kill small animals in your free time doesn't mean everyone else does too

Kluden · Post by **Kluden** » February 5, 2011, 2:11 am

does taco bell count? cause I'm feasting on a crunch wrap burrito right now...and I'm pretty sure that since the "meat" used in this burrito has at least 6 degrees of separation from kevin bacon, that it doesn't count. this being a vegan is fucken easy, son.

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » February 6, 2011, 8:50 pm

I love this topic. Not as much as the burger I just ate, but thanks for the entertaining posts.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » February 7, 2011, 6:27 pm

Fairweather Pure wrote:
Spang wrote:The food chain was invented by humans to justify exploitation of animals.

F'ing picture made me laugh out loud.

Spang's idiotic post made me laugh as well but, surprisingly, not as much as that picture.

Post by **pyrella** » February 7, 2011, 8:32 pm

I'm curious how much meat was consumed over this weekend due to this thread. Not even trying to be snide or facetious - all day long on Friday after reading this I had a hankering for meat.

Went to the butcher and got 4lbs of rib eye, 2lb of armenian seasoned kebab, pork shoulder, a few pounds of various sausage and then went and got a steak burrito next door with no beans or rice.

Man it was a delicious weekend, and left overs that will be amazing!

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » February 7, 2011, 9:51 pm

Spang wrote:
Aslanna wrote:We've eaten animals for thousands of years. It's fine.
We've murdered humans for thousands of years. It's fine.

We'll run out of food a lot faster if we stop murdering people altogether. Discuss.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » February 8, 2011, 1:04 pm

Leonaerd wrote:
Spang wrote:
Aslanna wrote:We've eaten animals for thousands of years. It's fine.
We've murdered humans for thousands of years. It's fine.
We'll run out of food a lot faster if we stop murdering people altogether. Discuss.

Probably not statistically, and not the right people for that matter.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » February 8, 2011, 2:25 pm

So, if humans didn't invent the food chain, who or what did?

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » February 8, 2011, 2:36 pm

Spang wrote:So, if humans didn't invent the food chain, who or what did?

invent?

your homework tonight is to watch the lion king again

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 8, 2011, 2:36 pm

Spang wrote:So, if humans didn't invent the food chain, who or what did?

I assume you're joking again, otherwise you're blown a lot of money on college and haven't really learned anything.

The Food Chain was here long before humans walked the earth. It's not something you invent. It's a part of nature.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » February 8, 2011, 2:40 pm

Winnow wrote:
The Food Chain was here long before humans walked the earth. It's not something you invent. It's a part of nature.

But humans inserted themselves at the top, believing that they must eat meat to survive. Vegetarians and vegans all over the world are proving that it's not necessary. Further, humans don't kill animals naturally, they use weapons and giant machines.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » February 8, 2011, 2:48 pm

Spang wrote:So, if humans didn't invent the food chain, who or what did?

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » February 8, 2011, 2:50 pm

Spang wrote:
Winnow wrote:
The Food Chain was here long before humans walked the earth. It's not something you invent. It's a part of nature.
But humans inserted themselves at the top, believing that they must eat meat to survive. Vegetarians and vegans all over the world are proving that it's not necessary. Further, humans don't kill animals naturally, they use weapons and giant machines.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » February 8, 2011, 2:58 pm

Is that all you people got, pictures of Jean-Luc Picard?

Your arguments are quite lacking.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 8, 2011, 3:02 pm

Spang wrote: But humans inserted themselves at the top, believing that they must eat meat to survive. Vegetarians and vegans all over the world are proving that it's not necessary. Further, humans don't kill animals naturally, they use weapons and giant machines.

It's all speculation but I bet animals and plants would use weapons as well if they could.

If you go back to the early days of man, even then, we were chucking spears at big animals. Are you going to go blame those early humans as well for killing beasts and chowing down on them?

Cracc · Post by **Cracc** » February 8, 2011, 3:03 pm

Wait.. Spang recently entered college? How old were you really when you were running around as an ogre on Veeshann Spang?

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » February 8, 2011, 5:16 pm

Spang wrote:
Winnow wrote:
The Food Chain was here long before humans walked the earth. It's not something you invent. It's a part of nature.
But humans inserted themselves at the top, believing that they must eat meat to survive. Vegetarians and vegans all over the world are proving that it's not necessary. Further, humans don't kill animals naturally, they use weapons and giant machines.

Evolved into the top at any rate, "inserted" is misleading. At a guess our forebears that started in on an omnivorous diet, which to a large degree has enabled our success as a species didn't do it as a long range plot to kill off fluffy bunnies.

You've taken quite a leap past "white guilt" all the way to species guilt. Get a PETA girlfriend recently or something?

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » February 8, 2011, 5:43 pm

It is not our arguments that are flawed.. It's yours that are retarded. We didn't insert ourselves anywhere. The 'food chain' wasn't invented it's just the natural order of things. Yes humans are more adaptable and can consume both animal and plant but to say one side of those is wrong is the flawed argument.

Basically you encapsulate in this thread with your sense of superiority why a lot of people think vegetarians are douchebags.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » February 8, 2011, 5:49 pm

We invented the food chain after we invented evolution!

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » February 8, 2011, 5:54 pm

I can see proto-GW Bush and proto-Charlton Hesten out on the Serengeti plotting this all out...

Spang · Post by **Spang** » February 8, 2011, 6:29 pm

Cracc wrote:Wait.. Spang recently entered college? How old were you really when you were running around as an ogre on Veeshann Spang?

I'm 32.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » February 8, 2011, 6:45 pm

Aabidano wrote:At a guess our forebears that started in on an omnivorous diet, which to a large degree has enabled our success as a species didn't do it as a long range plot to kill off fluffy bunnies.

No, they did it because they wanted to, and because they could. In 2011, there's absolutely no reason to torture and murder sentient creatures for human vanity.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » February 8, 2011, 6:59 pm

Spang wrote:
Aabidano wrote:At a guess our forebears that started in on an omnivorous diet, which to a large degree has enabled our success as a species didn't do it as a long range plot to kill off fluffy bunnies.
No, they did it because they wanted to, and because they could. In 2011, there's absolutely no reason to torture and murder sentient creatures for human vanity.

Vanity...I do not think you are using that word correctly.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » February 8, 2011, 7:25 pm

Spang wrote:...because they could.

Absolutely, and we wouldn't exist as we do today without it.

Spang wrote:In 2011, there's absolutely no reason to torture and murder sentient creatures for human vanity.

Vanity seems an odd stretch.

Discounting the American penchant for beef which is as bad as you can get in an environmental sense, there's less impact to the environment as a whole and sheer number of animals killed by an omnivorous diet due to the farming & harvesting methods involved and the higher caloric density of animal products.

A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy?

*Edit - X's rationale made sense, more power to him. I've considered it, but not because I feel a pig to be my brother critter.

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » February 8, 2011, 8:08 pm

Xouqoa wrote:
Spang wrote:
Xatrei wrote:What prompted your decision to switch to a vegetarian diet?
I was against animal cruelty, yet continued to eat dead animals. I was a hypocrite.
I would argue that you can be against animal cruelty and still eat meat. There are plenty of "humane" ways to kill animals which are being raised for food production.

That said, a lot of the large scale "corporate" meat farms possibly are in violation of those tenets. The only thing that will eliminate that is better oversight and hiring qualified employees and weeding out the ones that are only there to get their jollies from hurting the critters.

I agree with this. I'm not morally opposed to eating animals, I just think that the animals destined to become our food deserve better than the conditions in which most of them are produced. I can't guarantee that the meat available to me is produced in a manner that I'm comfortable with, so I abstain. If you put a medium-rare porterhouse in front of me that I was convinced was treated well in an environmentally acceptable manner and slaughtered humanely (some would say those are mutually exclusive terms, but I don't necessarily agree), I'd devour it with a quickness, I assure you.

I eat some shellfish and mollusks on occasion, but I avoid fish. It might seem like an arbitrary line to some, but I don't place what are essentially bugs on the same level as animals. I see fish as being acceptable to eat, I just don't like factory fishing operations or fish farming for a variety of reasons, so I prefer to exclude them from my diet. If you pull a salmon out of the river and put it in front of me, it's a goner, though hah.

As for this silliness about humans deciding to become omnivores on a lark (seriously, vanity?), a very reasonable argument can be made that we modern humans would not be here today without eating meat, and lots of it. Protohumans probably would have never developed the brains we enjoy today without it. Lft to forage a meat-free existence, we likely would not have survived the many challenges in our evolutionary history. While we have reached a point in our technological development that we can opt not to eat meat, that's only become the case relatively recently in human history.

I avoid meat because I think it's the right thing for me to do. It's a personal decision, and one that I'd never dare to brow beat anyone else over, although I do with people in general would be a little more informed and conscientious about how that roast ends up on their plate.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » February 8, 2011, 11:10 pm

Xatrei wrote:As for this silliness about humans deciding to become omnivores on a lark (seriously, vanity?), a very reasonable argument can be made that we modern humans would not be here today without eating meat, and lots of it.

My argument isn't that our ancestors should have been vegetarians (though I think we still would have survived since we weren't true carnivores then and we aren't now*), but that eating sentient creatures today is unnecessary. Just like women were not put on this planet for men and black people were not put on this planet for white people, animals were not put on this planet for humans.

*Yes, I understand we eat meat, but only after the animal has been properly butchered, the meat properly cleaned and properly cooked, etc.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » February 8, 2011, 11:31 pm

Spang wrote:Just like women were not put on this planet for men and black people were not put on this planet for white people, animals were not put on this planet for humans.

Where do you come up with this shit? Wherever you are pulling it from keep it up. It's hilarious!

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 9, 2011, 12:21 am

Humans are omnivorous. For the vast majority of human existence, populations have had different diets based largely on regional availability of food. So Eskimos eat a lot of seals and so on. That is no longer the case. Food options have been expanding for awhile, and we can now choose to eat practically anything we like. This is a break from past experience and arguments about what we used to do have less force. We can now choose, both individually and culturally, what foods, and in what balance, we want to eat.

Vegetarianism and veganism aren't my favorite of the potential ways to organize my eating, but they're way better options than most of the alternatives.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » February 9, 2011, 1:01 am

Eat whatever makes you happy. Buy skinnyjeans. Carry around a satchel. Wear vintage clothes. Fuck, buy a hybrid car. Damn hipsters and hippies are as self-righteous and annoying as born-agains.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » February 9, 2011, 1:38 pm

Good, it's approaching lunchtime finally. I was getting lightheaded from all the laughter

masteen · Post by **masteen** » February 9, 2011, 5:55 pm

Spang wrote:No shit, but humans are not predators.

Days late, but I have to jump in on this. There's a lot of evidence to suggest that humans are the main reason that ALL megafauna (really big animals like mammoths, giant ground sloths, ect.) went extinct everywhere we migrated. We're not just predators; we're the most awesome and destructive predators this planet has ever produced.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » February 9, 2011, 7:31 pm

You're all wrong!

"Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet." - Agent Smith

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » February 9, 2011, 8:43 pm

I say that humans should take back photosynthesis too. We can do that since we created it as well. Let us see you eat your vegetables when they cannot process those yummy rays from the Sun!

Asheran Mojomaster · Post by **Asheran Mojomaster** » May 3, 2011, 1:35 pm

Jesus Christ, what is with veggies and vegans going on rants like this? I have heard it so many times, and it never makes sense. Honestly, the only reason its even possible to be a vegan today is because of the advances in food production and technology that we have. In the past, people would have starved to death if they tried to become true vegetarians. Also, from a sustainability point of view, we would have much less food if everyone went vegetarian. We will eventually run into food problems anyway (parts of the world already are), but there are plenty of places where it is not feasible to raise crops, but can raise livestock feeding on the more resilient grasses and such that humans cannot eat.

So, you can act superior all you like, but that does not mean you are.

Also

Spang wrote:
Boogahz wrote:um, the food chain is real. Take predators out of their environments and you will see the next rung down begin to overpopulate the area.
No shit, but humans are not predators.

WTF? Do you even know what the word "predator" means? You may think humans are not...and I guarantee if you were in a situation where you had to choose between yourself starving, or killing an animal and frying its ass over a fire, you would kill the animal and go on living. You know what that makes you? A predator! You are just in denial and guilt-ridden at the moment.

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » May 3, 2011, 2:25 pm

Ash,

The farm raised animals we eat consume enough grains and other goodies to feed mankind forever. No, I'm not saying let's eat cow food. Consider the resources we pour into feeding our food and begin to understand what could happen if we re-allocated these resources into our own tummies, not the tummies of the animals we will eventually eat. Realize a cow eats a LOT of food to give us a relatively small amount of food in return.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » May 3, 2011, 2:28 pm

Leonaerd wrote:Ash,

The farm raised animals we eat consume enough grains and other goodies to feed mankind forever. No, I'm not saying let's eat cow food. Consider the resources we pour into feeding our food and begin to understand what could happen if we re-allocated these resources into our own tummies.

Yeah, we should scrap ethanol and start growing corn that people can eat too.

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » May 3, 2011, 2:52 pm

err dunno what the hell happened with my post above. definitely didn't send the first one. =P

anyway, boog, that's a different argument. as my (edited) post says it's about how little return we get from how much food we funnel into those beasts.

as gas prices get higher ethanol should in theory become relatively cheaper, though obviously still costly.

Asheran Mojomaster · Post by **Asheran Mojomaster** » May 3, 2011, 4:51 pm

Leonaerd wrote:Ash,

The farm raised animals we eat consume enough grains and other goodies to feed mankind forever. No, I'm not saying let's eat cow food. Consider the resources we pour into feeding our food and begin to understand what could happen if we re-allocated these resources into our own tummies, not the tummies of the animals we will eventually eat. Realize a cow eats a LOT of food to give us a relatively small amount of food in return.

Well, I knew that cows were inefficient in that way, but if you read the second part of what I was saying, it was more of a long term problem. As population increases, we will eventually hit a point where we will no longer be able to feed cows or other animals anything that we can eat ourselves (unless we find some crazy new ways to grow crops). We will still eat meat and meat will be very important, simply because there are many places that we cannot farm very well, but animals have the ability to eat resilient plants we cannot and turn them into food for us.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 3, 2011, 7:22 pm

Honestly, the only reason its even possible to be a vegan today is because of the advances in food production and technology that we have. In the past, people would have starved to death if they tried to become true vegetarians. Also, from a sustainability point of view, we would have much less food if everyone went vegetarian. We will eventually run into food problems anyway (parts of the world already are), but there are plenty of places where it is not feasible to raise crops, but can raise livestock feeding on the more resilient grasses and such that humans cannot eat.

Holy unsupported assertions. There are a few glimmers of truth in here, but on the whole this is nonsense.

On the whole, modern food production and technology has drastically increased the amount of meat in our diets.

Asheran Mojomaster · Post by **Asheran Mojomaster** » May 4, 2011, 1:02 am

Sueven wrote:
Honestly, the only reason its even possible to be a vegan today is because of the advances in food production and technology that we have. In the past, people would have starved to death if they tried to become true vegetarians. Also, from a sustainability point of view, we would have much less food if everyone went vegetarian. We will eventually run into food problems anyway (parts of the world already are), but there are plenty of places where it is not feasible to raise crops, but can raise livestock feeding on the more resilient grasses and such that humans cannot eat.
Holy unsupported assertions. There are a few glimmers of truth in here, but on the whole this is nonsense.

On the whole, modern food production and technology has drastically increased the amount of meat in our diets.

What is nonsense? Our bodies require proteins, vitamins, minerals, and other things from meat that are quite hard to get from plants. There have been times and places in the past that people lived on very little meat, but it causes all sorts of problems.

When I say technology and food production allow for people to be vegans, its because production methods can add many of these things to foods today, and its possible to get a much greater variety of foods without eating meat. Even today it is hard to get enough B12 without eating meat or taking daily vitamins for it.

Sorry if I did not go into great detail about why, but it should be obvious to anyone that knows much about human physiology and nutrition. I'd rather not scour the internet to find all the studies and information to show you.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » May 4, 2011, 5:17 am

And they are back at it. How's that jam band coming along, kids? Making a difference yet?

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » May 4, 2011, 7:15 am

Modern beef production is horribly inefficient and a nasty environmental impact. Chickens, goats, sheep and fish are better. More meat and milk from goats per lb for the money\feed spend too, a far more efficient and durable critter than a cow.

Latter day hippies and (spew) hipsters are way worse than your run of the mill vegan types who are only pain in the ass when it comes to selecting restaurants.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » May 5, 2011, 3:34 am

pyrella wrote:I'm curious how much meat was consumed over this weekend due to this thread. Not even trying to be snide or facetious - all day long on Friday after reading this I had a hankering for meat.

Went to the butcher and got 4lbs of rib eye, 2lb of armenian seasoned kebab, pork shoulder, a few pounds of various sausage and then went and got a steak burrito next door with no beans or rice.

Man it was a delicious weekend, and left overs that will be amazing!

I know this is old, but I missed it. Your butcher makes seasoned kebab? Fuck me, I wish the assholes passing for butchers down here could cut a t-bone properly. I'd feed like 2 dozen tourists to the shark god for some decent kebab.

Asheran Mojomaster · Post by **Asheran Mojomaster** » May 5, 2011, 4:03 am

masteen wrote:
pyrella wrote:I'm curious how much meat was consumed over this weekend due to this thread. Not even trying to be snide or facetious - all day long on Friday after reading this I had a hankering for meat.

Went to the butcher and got 4lbs of rib eye, 2lb of armenian seasoned kebab, pork shoulder, a few pounds of various sausage and then went and got a steak burrito next door with no beans or rice.

Man it was a delicious weekend, and left overs that will be amazing!
I know this is old, but I missed it. Your butcher makes seasoned kebab? Fuck me, I wish the assholes passing for butchers down here could cut a t-bone properly. I'd feed like 2 dozen tourists to the shark god for some decent kebab.

That sucks. Good butchers are a godsend. My mom and I are buying a cow from my grandparents and splitting it soon. Going to pack a freezer with all sorts of beef.