Does this sound like a couple people we know?

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Sylvus
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Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Sylvus »

So there's a trial going on in Detroit right now, ostensibly about a shooting as a result of Road Rage, but it hit pretty close to home (VV).

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles ... 006072.txt

http://www.freep.com/article/20100810/N ... -testifies

http://www.freep.com/article/20100811/N ... rage-trial

Two cars driving down the street, the guy in the lead (we'll call him Milkoll ) hits his brakes a couple times, angering the guy in the back (Munkfasterr). Munkfasterr honks, flips him off, gets out of his car and spits on Milkoll . Milkoll thinks that he sees Munkfasterr reaching in his pocket - obviously putting his life at risk - so he does what anyone with a CCW should do in that instance: he shoots Munkfasterr. Oops, Munkfasterr wasn't armed!

Milkoll is charged with assault with intent to do great bodily harm and faces up to ten years in prison if convicted.

What do you think, should he go to jail?
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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Bubba Grizz »

Both should go to jail. Get those bastards off the streets. Had this happened in Cinncinati they'd probably be Bengals.
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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Aslanna »

+1 for jail.
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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

If his lawyer is worth a crap he will be acquitted. Using deadly force in self defense requires 3 basic elements to be in place (unless there is some form of castle doctrine in place which can preclude these...and I am unsure as to what michigan has in place). Those 3 elements would be ability, opportunity, and jeopardy.

With information from the article, it would appear that the ability clause is covered in this case because of the disparity of force. Even if they were unarmed, it can be determined that 2 attackers vs 1 victim shows a clear disparity of force and would be able to cause serious bodily harm.

The opportunity clause also is covered as those idiots both got out of the vehicle and approached while issuing threats. The normal range for opportunity to be covered is 21 feet. They were both well within that range.

The jeopardy portion of this is the only part that I can see that has questions unanswered. If there were cars stopped in front of the victim, then this would be 100% cut and dried with an innocent verdict. If there was no one in front of him, then he should have hit the gas and took off. Otherwise, there was a very real threat in close proximity and the only error he made was in not actually eliminating that threat.


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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Oh...and good job putting your own slant on the story instead of cutting and pasting straight facts. You would make a good liberal commentator.
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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Sylvus »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Oh...and good job putting your own slant on the story instead of cutting and pasting straight facts. You would make a good liberal commentator.
What about that wasn't fact? It was a summary of what happened, but none of it wasn't factual. I added the part about the spitter being unarmed because it was mentioned on the radio this morning and not in any of the 3 articles I linked to (that contained the other facts that I summarized).
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Oh it was factual....which is why I said you would make a great liberal commentator. This part
Milkoll thinks that he sees Munkfasterr reaching in his pocket - obviously putting his life at risk - so he does what anyone with a CCW should do in that instance: he shoots Munkfasterr. Oops, Munkfasterr wasn't armed!
was especially brilliant. The part about "obviously putting his life at risk" with the sarcasm put it right over the top. For me, the part with "does what anyone with a CCW should do in that instance" shows your complete and utter ignorance on what anyone is trained to do or not do. Maybe you should come down and sit in on one of my classes for free before you run your big mouth about shit that you have zero clue on.
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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Aslanna »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Oh it was factual....which is why I said you would make a great liberal commentator.
Correct. If it wasn't factual he'd instead make a good FOX commentator. Facts to them are like sunlight to a vampire.
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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Once again you have brought absolutely nothing useful to a thread.
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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Aslanna »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Once again you have brought absolutely nothing useful to a thread.
Thank you for your valuable input. I'll take it under advisement.
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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Animalor »

Person B (who got shot) was an overly aggressive asshole and Person A (Shooter) a well-armed and easily scared person.

OP is a (sometimes) troll that gets off on baiting conservatives.

It's all in good fun until someone gets banned.
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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Boogahz »

similar local story:
Man accused of shooting at driver on MoPac
Thursday, August 5, 2010, 02:25 PM

A 30-year-old man has been charged with first-degree aggravated assault with a deadly weapon after police say he fired twice at another driver Monday in a road rage incident on MoPac Boulevard (Loop 1).

According to an arrest affidavit, Charlie Smith, at right, fired two rounds at a green pickup that he said had been swerving at him several times as they drove south on MoPac. Smith told police that the driver of the truck began tailgating him in North Austin and then racing in front of him and pulling into his lane to cut him off, according to the affidavit. Smith, who police said is licensed to carry a handgun, told police that he was trying to use deadly force to shoot the driver but only hit the two right tires of the truck as they were near Southwest Parkway, the document says.

The driver of the Chevrolet S-10 pickup told police that he intentionally antagonized Smith by continually cutting him off, slowing down in front of him and swerving his vehicle at him, according to the affidavit. Police said the two vehicles never made contact.
the guy was cutting him off and blocking him from exiting the highway for 6-10 miles
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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Kluden »

crappy situation for anyone to be in. *based on the elements put forth in the first article posted* (I didn't read the other two), I would say this guy will be found not guilty by the jury of peers. I don't know the facts, and wasn't at the seen, I only know what the article told me...just to reiterate that I'm not a judge or jury member here...just an opinion.

Unfortunately, he will probably get bankrupted by the civil suites that will follow. So those that want him in jail, will at least get to watch his life be ruined by the court system.

The attackers should both have assault charges against them as well I would think, no? Especially if proof of spit and hitting his car are there. That's aggravated assault.

On the story Boogahz posted...I don't even think I can comment on that one...that seems just insane to me...shooting at a car. Did the guy just pull over at any point? or did he keep driving, and helped the situation continue?
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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Gzette »

I'm with Kilmoll on this one. If those articles are accurate, I can see how he would be fearful and intimidated. Sylvus's brief summary fails to mention the shooting victim punching the other guy's vehicle and that there were two people outside of the car intimidating him. It's still an idiotic situation. road rage ftl.
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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

In Boog's story, why was the instigating driver of the pickup truck not arrested and charged with several things? Again, a good lawyer is probably going to get the shooter declared innocent. A vehicle is considered a deadly weapon in situations like that. What kind of complete asshole does that kind of shit for fun?
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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Xatrei »

I didn't see enough facts in any of those links to even begin to form an opinion on the matter. The only side presented is the defendant's. His claims that he was intimidated, spat upon, cursed at and afraid sure sound damning, but it's only his apparently uncorroborated account of what happened. I don't care enough about this case to try to track down the full story, but anyone making a judgment one way or another based only on these articles is doing so with far too little information.
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Post by Boogahz »

Kluden wrote:On the story Boogahz posted...I don't even think I can comment on that one...that seems just insane to me...shooting at a car. Did the guy just pull over at any point? or did he keep driving, and helped the situation continue?
He slowed down several times and the aggressor would match his speed.
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Post by Kluden »

Well, slowing down can be going from 60 to 45mph...I would have pulled over to defuse the situation completely, or take it outside of the vehicle if the dude chose to pull over as well. Chances are, the guy would have kept going, and dude wouldn't be in trial and on the news now had he done the smart thing and just tried to defuse the situation. He had a gun, its not like he should have been afraid to pull over.
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Post by Boogahz »

by saying he slowed down, I mean he tried to pull over. The guy would block him. When someone is doing that to you, you wouldn't have a clue what they would be willing to do if you did stop and get out. Why the fuck the aggressor did it at all still boggles me. He admitted to doing it all too, which is even stranger. I am not saying that shooting at his vehicle was the proper way to end the situation, but he tried to do about all he could do before then. Keep in mind that this all happened over around 10 miles of highway. It's not like the guy just cut him off and he opened fire.
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Post by Ashur »

I'd buy Milkoll a beer. He seems pretty cool.
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Post by Sabek »

The shooter should go to jail plain and simple if the Michigan laws are anything like the Ohio laws.
You can't start a fight, and then shoot someone in self-defense in Ohio.
Ohio CCW Handbook wrote:Condition 1: Defendant Is Not At Fault
First, the defendant must prove that he was not at fault for creating
the situation. The defendant cannot be the first aggressor or initiator.
However, in proving the victim’s fault, a defendant cannot point
to other unrelated situations where the victim was the aggressor.
Remember, the focus is on the specific facts of the situation at hand.
If you escalate a confrontation by throwing the first punch, attacking,
or drawing your handgun, you are the aggressor. Most likely in this
situation, you cannot legitimately claim self-defense nor would you
likely succeed in proving your affirmative defense.
Dude should be convicted, and is the kind of idiot that gives sane gun owners a bad name. He gives the gun control advocates something to point to.
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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

I am not sure about Columbus, but in the Cincinnati area it is not escalating a situation for braking when cars in front of you slow down.
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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Sabek »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:I am not sure about Columbus, but in the Cincinnati area it is not escalating a situation for braking when cars in front of you slow down.
You only get the shooter's side of the story, but if you really believe he had to repeatedly jam on his brakes because the car in front of him rather than just being a complete douche I suppose he didn't start it.
More likely he started jamming his brakes and it eventually pushed the guy behind him too far. Not at all saying the guy who got shot isn't partly to blame, but nothing about the situation as describes shows eminent serious bodily harm.
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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by Metanis »

Xatrei wrote:I didn't see enough facts in any of those links to even begin to form an opinion on the matter. The only side presented is the defendant's. His claims that he was intimidated, spat upon, cursed at and afraid sure sound damning, but it's only his apparently uncorroborated account of what happened. I don't care enough about this case to try to track down the full story, but anyone making a judgment one way or another based only on these articles is doing so with far too little information.
/agree

Post of the week award imho.
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Re: Does this sound like a couple people we know?

Post by VariaVespasa »

Hung jury, trying again in mid october. http://dailyme.com/person/carl-mintz.html?sort=1
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